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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 10 Dec 1924

Vol. 9 No. 24

DUBLIN PORT AND DOCKS BILL, 1924.—SECOND STAGE.

I am grateful to the Government for giving me an opportunity of taking up the Second Reading of the Dublin Port and Docks Bill, 1924. I tried to explain, in introducing this Bill, that it is a matter of considerable urgency in connection with the port. It is necessary for me, on the Second Reading, to go into rather more detail as to the position and what led up to the condition of affairs that we find to-day. Briefly, the Dublin Port and Docks Board was, in the first place, constituted by an Act of Parliament in 1707. It was incorporated with the Corporation of Dublin and was empowered to erect a Ballast Office and act as Conservator of the port. In 1786 the care of the port was transferred to a special Board called the Corporation for Preserving and Improving the Port of Dublin. This Board consisted of the Lord Mayor, the High Sheriff, seventeen persons and three Aldermen, who were named in the Act for perpetual succession.

In the year 1867 an Act was passed again changing the constitution of the Board and giving representation to the Lord Mayor of Dublin, three citizens appointed by the Corporation, seven members appointed by the Commissioners of Irish Lights, seven members elected by the traders and manufacturers, and seven members by the owners of shipping. Then we come to the Act of 1898, which again dealt with the franchise. It is under the Act of 1898 that our difficulty arises, and, with the good-will of the Dáil, we seek to get over that difficulty now. The Act of 1898 provided that a revision should take place in the list of electors, and that a revisor should be appointed before the 31st of October in each year. The person to appoint the revisor was named in the Bill as the Lord Chief Justice of Ireland. I ask the Dáil to recognise that it was by an Act passed here the difficulty for the Port Board was created.

In connection with the Courts of Justice Act, certain functions of the Lord Chief Justice were transferred to the Chief Justice of the Saorstát. Not all of them, however, were transferred, and one of the things left out has reference to the Port and Docks Board. As I have stated, the transferring of the functions of the Lord Chief Justice to the Chief Justice of the Saorstát was carried out under an Act of the Dáil. All the functions were not transferred. It was a deliberate act of the Dáil. When the Port and Docks Board in the ordinary way were asking the Chief Justice to appoint a revisor to deal with the list of electors, the Port Board became conversant of the fact that there was some difficulty in the matter.

The Chief Justice wrote: "The Government decided, and it was stated in the Dáil, that it would not transfer those functions by a general omnibus section, but would leave the case to be dealt with individually, after consultation with the Corporation and the various bodies affected, so that individual views might be taken of each particular case, as to whether it was desired that the Chief Justice would possess and continue to discharge the function in question."

I submit that there could not have been any question as to the desirability of making a change in connection with the Board. We do not meet with any difficulty as far as the Government is concerned. Unfortunately, we are bound up with dates, first as regards the appointment of a revisor, and then as regards the election. Owing to delay all these dates had to be altered. The main thing aimed at in connection with this Bill is to put things in order, so that we may be able to hold our election in due course, even though there may be some little delay. The members of the Board who should ordinarily retire next January, should be allowed to remain and assist in discharging the Board's functions during the interregnum between the time the election should have been held and the time when, with the permission of the Dáil, it will be held.

On the First Reading I was asked by Deputy Corish what would be the position of the Port and Docks Board in the event of these changes not being authorised. The position would be serious. Out of twenty-seven members of the Board, six civic members have retired under circumstances the Dáil is already aware of. Of the remaining members, seven who retire cannot be co-opted, because the period for which they were elected is exhausted, and the board has no power to co-opt additional members unless where vacancies occur owing to death or retirement. They have no power to fill vacancies that occur by retirement on rotation.

That leaves fourteen members of the board who would still be available to do the ordinary work of the board. But in our Act of 1898, and all through our Acts, the main functions of the board are governed by the necessity of having a majority of the board, and in any case there must be not less than fifteen members before they can make any change—that is to say, any rather drastic change—as a protection against any small number of the board putting into operation changes of a far-reaching nature. To-day we are up against that provision of 15 members for there are only fourteen available members. If we had the whole 14 we could not put into operation certain changes that we are very anxious to bring about at the present moment. For instance, a steamer came up into the Liffey the other day. It was a large steamer for pilgrims, and the Deputies will have noticed that a complaint was received by the Port and Docks Board as to the very high charges that were levied on this vessel, for a very short stay in the port. The whole thing was examined in the light of what we could do, and as to whether we could make our charges more reasonable.

We found that the only means we had of doing so was to make a universal order providing that all similar boats coming in to the Liffey in a similar way with passengers, that is to say passenger boats, would be treated in exactly the same way. The necessary resolutions have been prepared. Certain notices have to be given. Fifteen members of the board are required to put that business through, and in this particular case, in the event of our not getting any relief, it will be impossible for us to do anything in the matter until the period expires when the board can be reconstituted by having an election in 1926. Apart from that altogether, as a matter of fact, in connection with changes on dues leviable, 15 members are also required. I emphasise and stress the point that our difficulty is not one created by ourselves, not one created under our Acts of Parliament, but it is a difficulty created by the action of the Dáil in circumstances that I think I may claim throw a responsibility on the Dáil to relieve us from the difficulty in which we find ourselves.

That can only be done, I think, by the hearty co-operation of the Dáil on all sides, because if the Deputies will agree to give me a Second Reading for this Bill to-night it is a very urgent necessity that I should ask the Dáil for leave to press the matter through in the briefest time. The dates mentioned in this Bill will be of no use to us unless the legislation is expedited, so as to bring the dates within the period in which this Bill is going through the Dáil. If the Bill is not through on a certain date, then, of course, all our dates are wrong. As the matter is not of a contentious character, I ask on behalf of the Port Board, in order to meet the temporary difficulties, that the Dáil should assist us in getting over that difficulty as they have been instrumental in putting us into it. I think Deputy Johnson, on the First Reading, was inclined to raise a question as to the constitution of the Port and Docks Board.

resumed the Chair.

I think his party has raised that question on every possible occasion. However, I put it to him that in this case we are not dealing with the franchise, and we are not dealing with anything except purely the change of authority that is to appoint the revisor. Let us get on with the election and, even if Deputy Johnson or any other Deputies are not very enthusiastic about our constitution, I beg to submit that the Deputies will, in the not far distant future, be in a position to go into all these things as to the constitution of the Port and Docks Board, at any time when we bring up a private or amending Bill before this Dáil.

This cannot be very long delayed. As far as I am concerned, I will welcome the promotion of such a Bill at the earliest possible moment. I would be glad, personally, to get the Board in line with any national aspirations, if I may put it in that way, or, at all events, to put our constitution to the test of any argument that may be advanced for or against it. I will, however, say in connection with what Deputy Johnson said on the occasion of the First Reading of the Bill, just one word. I think he said on that occasion that a person came down with bunches of proxies at the election and handed in the proxies. Now, the whole constitution is based on giving limited companies and partnerships a vote. That may be right or that may be wrong. That always has been and is in operation in most of the ports so far as I know.

A limited company can only vote by seal. A limited company, when wishing to vote for a representative on the Port and Docks Board has to fix the seal of the company to a document authorising somebody to record their vote. In the same way in partnerships, a form is provided by which the partners can nominate one or other of the partners to vote. These are handed in on the day of the election, and are scrutinised carefully by the people in charge of the election. I do not think they are handed in in big batches, but even then they are an expression of the wish of the combination to vote in a certain way, and it is the only way in which they can authorise an individual to do so. Otherwise in these cases every voter must attend in person and vote.

Of course, we have got a very large area, and a particular franchise which has been examined into on every occasion in which we went to Parliament for a Bill for authority. I may say that every Bill that has been promoted by the Port and Docks Board has had to run the gauntlet of these objections.

In my experience of the Port and Docks Board I have met members of the Corporation who came on that Board time and again, and over and over again with the same feelings that everything was wrong with that Port and Docks Board and that nothing was what it should be. But in all cases that I know of where these men in connection with the Corporation sat on the Board for any reasonable time, they were eventually changed in their attitude, and in their appreciation of the work of the Port and Docks Board. As far as I could I have tried to emphasise the reason why the Dáil should not ignore the fact that an election should be held in the early part of the year. That election is important for carrying out the functions of the Board. It is necessary for the carrying out of some functions. Even if it were not necessary, it certainly is not desirable that an important body like the Port and Docks Board should be left without a number of its members through a circumstance which arose owing to the action of this Dáil in connection with the transference of the functions of the Lord Chief Justice of Ireland to the Chief Justice of the Saorstát.

There is another matter which I should like to touch upon. As the Minister for Finance knows, for quite twelve months we have had the desire to stabilise our finances by creating a consolidated stock to take the place of the financial method in vogue for some years—the issuing of mortgage bonds. This is an important matter and we ought to be in a position to deal with it at the earliest possible moment. There will be considerable embarrassment if we have not got our Board. In fact, in order to carry out the operation I do not think fourteen members of the Board would be sufficient. Even if they could do it, I think it would be a very grave responsibility to put on such a small number of members. In that financial operation would be included the provision of funds which, in my judgment, should run to a quarter of a million at least for the furtherance of new works required at the port. In other words, what we have in mind and what has only been waiting for a favourable atmosphere——

The atmosphere has not changed.

The atmosphere is not going to be improved by leaving us with some of our branches lopped off. The consolidation of the stock, including the mortgage bonds of the Board, should, I think, be on the basis of one million pounds. That would give us money for very urgent work. I think everyone would agree that the port of Dublin is an important asset to the State, and that works of development should be undertaken as soon as possible, so as to bring our port to a point that will meet all the demands to be placed upon it in the near future.

Section 1 of the Bill seeks to substitute the Chief Justice of the Saorstát for appointing a revisor of the Board's register of electors in lieu of the Lord Chief Justice of Ireland, named in Section 20 of the Dublin Port and Docks Act, 1898, that is described in the Bill as the main Act. Section 2 is to appoint a date by or before which such appointment, for the present year only, shall be made, in substitution for the 31st October mentioned in Section 20 of the Dublin Port and Docks Act, 1898. That is merely a temporary provision to get over the difficulty of the dates. Section 3 is to fix a date in lieu of 10th November, the date mentioned in Section 21 of the Act of 1898, for the purpose only of any election to be held next year. The election is due to be held at the beginning of each year after which the revisor usually held his sittings. That is to put in a possible date in place of a date already fixed. Section 4 is to fix a date for the purpose only of any election to be held next year, on or before which a revision is to be completed, in substitution for the 5th December prescribed by Section 25 of the Dublin Port and Docks Act, 1898.

Section 5 is consequential on above, to postpone the election which ordinarily would have been held, as provided for by Section 7 of the Dublin Port and Docks Act, 1898, on the Tuesday preceding the second Thursday in January, 1925 (that is, the date on which the elections should be held) until the Tuesday preceding the second Thursday in February, 1925. That is giving a month's extension. Consequential on that is a section which is to continue in office until the second Thursday in February, 1925, the seven elected members of the Board who would ordinarily have retired by rotation on the second Thursday in January, 1925, in accordance with the provisions of Section 7 (5) of the Dublin Port and Docks Act, 1898. I have tried to make the position as clear as I could, and I hope that the Dáil will give me the assistance necessary to put this useful Board in a position to carry on their functions with undiminished vigour.

I beg to second.

Deputy Hewat has made a very reasonable and well-argued case for the Bill, and I think he deserves a good deal of sympathetic support in the line he has taken up. Undoubtedly the Port and Docks Board have found themselves in a difficulty owing to certain, shall I say, lack of foresight or circumspection on the part of their legal advisers. I realise that they find themselves in certain difficulties, because they desire to do work which they feel they cannot do with a number as low as fourteen. I am prepared to assist Deputy Hewat in this matter if he will meet some of the requirements.

The difficulty that the Deputy points out would arise owing to the smallness of numbers, if there is no election, might be met, for instance, if we could agree to substitutes being appointed on the Board for the civic members, who are no longer eligible to sit there, and have not attempted to sit, owing to the dissolution of the Dublin Corporation. If the civic members, as they are called in the Bill, were replaced by other civic members, that would supply the deficiency in numbers, and allow the important resolutions and financial changes that Deputy Hewat suggests to be brought into operation. The increase of the Board by the number of Corporation members who have been superseded or abolished should fill that gap at any rate. I think it is a pity some effort was not made by the Board, or by Deputy Hewat on behalf of the Board, to supply the deficiency which was created by the abolition of the Dublin Corporation.

May I correct Deputy Johnson. The Corporation members retired of their own free will. They were not obliged to do so.

I am not a lawyer and do not pretend to read Acts of Parliament very correctly, but as I read the Act, "six members of the Corporation, to be appointed by the Corporation, acting by the Council," were to act on the Board. If the Corporation is abolished, there are no six members of the Corporation. Therefore, they cannot act on the Board.

I think an order was issued, the Abolition Order, which put the members of the Corporation in a position to act on the Board if they wished to do so.

As I say, I do not pretend to be a lawyer, but it seems to me that when the Act of Parliament constituting the Board stated that the Board was to consist of, amongst others, six members of the Corporation, to be appointed by the Corporation acting by the Council, it means that there can be no alteration by order of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health. If it had said that the council shall appoint six members, and the Minister for Local Government and Public Health would act for the Council in such a matter, that is one thing. The Act says the Board shall consist of six members of the Corporation, plus the elected members, etc. These are not members of the Corporation, so that the proposition of the Deputy is that this big financial operation he foresees, and other considerable works which he deems to be necessary, shall be undertaken by the Board without the assistance of any civic members whatever.

I wonder will the Deputy agree to insert in this Bill a section providing for the substitution of the six civic members that have been dethroned by, say, six other members to be appointed by the Deputies of Dáil Eireann, representing the city and county of Dublin, and say the adjoining counties of Kildare, Meath and Wicklow, to act for so long a time as the Corporation is not in existence, such elected members to be citizens of Dublin or the area appertaining to Dublin. That would provide civic membership and would at least meet one of the difficulties that the Deputy says faces the Board. There is, of course, the bigger question which I hope will be dealt with very quickly and very early. As I learned in my childhood, when trying to learn to read, "never put off until to-morrow what you can do to-day." I have tried my utmost to follow that injunction whenever I thought the thing to be done was a good thing. That is my position on this occasion. If I could secure a general revision of the constitution of the Board in this Bill I would be glad to do it, but I can see difficulties in that respect. It might require too long a discussion and an examination beyond my capacity.

There are certain propositions which, I think, would go a long way to meet the immediate needs, and perhaps give an opportunity to the Board to show its willingness to meet what I conceive to be democratic requirements. I do not like the electorate at all, that is to say, the powers that are given to certain elements within the electorate that elects the Board. I think the idea of duplicate voting—and triplicate, quadruplicate and quintuple—by which certain persons may have up to six votes, and certain other persons may have up to ten votes apiece, while other persons may have only one vote, is an undesirable method of electing public bodies and I hope that some day very soon it may be altered. I do not propose to ask the Deputy to agree to that alteration in this Bill. I think it may require a good deal of examination and detailed consideration by experts. I think, apart from the various sections and qualifications for votes, we can, and ought, immediately in this Bill, as we are dealing with revisions, provide against any person being an elector having more than one vote. That is to say, more than one vote for each elected member. I do not want to restrict the electorate to one vote when they are electing six or seven persons, but I think we ought to take the opportunity that now presents itself of altering the constitution of this Board, so far as the election of elected members goes. We ought not to allow this Bill to pass in its present form without providing for a limitation of the number of votes that any individual may exercise.

As I said, I do not want to use the opportunity to press too hard a bargain, but if the Deputy will indicate his willingness to amend the present Bill in such a way as to secure the appointment of civic members in the way I suggested, and to limit the number of votes for any elector on the list to be drawn up, so that he shall have only one vote, then I would do my best to facilitate the passing of the Bill before the New Year.

Of course, Deputy Johnson must know that the Bill is an emergency one, and that to attempt to amend it at this stage would make it useless. There would be no possibility of amending the Bill in time even if the postponement of the elections could be made effective. As regards the members of the Corporation on the Board, I may say it was the greatest possible grief to every member of the Board to lose the advice and assistance of the members of the Corporation. I can straightaway answer for the Board that we are willing either to get this civic representation back by any means, or we would fall in with any suggestion that would enable us to fill the six vacant places. I have not the slightest hesitation in saying that if such proposal was submitted and was feasible the Board would welcome it unanimously, and be very glad and willing to co-operate in giving it effect, because they recognise what a benefit it would be to the Board. We do not look upon the Corporation members in any hostile spirit, rather do we believe that the assistance we got from them was very valuable and we positively miss in our proceedings the membership from the City Hall. Time is the essence of this Bill.

You can pass it before the end of next week, with amendments.

The revisor has to be appointed and there are indications that the Dáil will not be sitting next week.

They would come back specially for this.

Although I am asking the Dáil to assist me in this Bill as a matter of emergency, I could not ask them to upset their whole programme simply to convenience the Port and Docks Board.

And upset our whole procedure by taking such amendments to this Bill.

Supposing we agree that everything Deputy Johnson has said is right, that no man should have two votes, it has been going on for years and we are not raising this question now in this Bill. Deputy Johnson can raise that the first time the Port and Docks Board want any amendment of their Act. I would, on my own account, make a promise to Deputy Johnson that as far as I am concerned within the next four or five years he would have an opportunity of raising the whole question on a Private Bill presented by the Port and Docks Board, and then anything that is defective, we would trust to the judgment of the Committee and the House to put right. Meantime I am asking now that we should be allowed to have our elections by getting this Bill through.

Question put—"That this Bill be now read a Second Time."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 30; Níl, 7.

  • Seoirse de Bhulbh.
  • John J. Cole.
  • Máighréad Ní Choileáin Bean Uí Dhrisceóil.
  • Osmond Grattan Esmonde.
  • Desmond Fitzgerald.
  • John Good.
  • John Hennigan.
  • William Hewat.
  • Seosamh Mac Bhrighde.
  • D. Mac Con Uladh.
  • Pádraig Mac Fadáin.
  • Patrick McGilligan.
  • Seosamh Mac Niocaill.
  • Liam Mag Aonghusa.
  • Pádraig S. Mac Ualghairg.
  • James Sproule Myles.
  • Martin M. Nally.
  • Peadar O hAodha. Eoghan O Dochartaigh.
  • Séamus N. O Dóláin.
  • Pádraig O Dubhthaigh.
  • Eamon S. O Dúgáin.
  • Seán O Duinnín.
  • Aindriú O Láimhín.
  • Fionán O Loingsigh.
  • Pádraic O Máille.
  • Seán M. O Súilleabháin.
  • Caoimhghín O hUigín.
  • Seán Príomhdhail.
  • Liam Thrift.

Níl

  • Seán Buitléir.
  • Maolmhuire Mac Eochadha.
  • Tomás de Nógla.
  • Tomás O Conaill.
  • Seán O Laidhin.
  • Domhnall O Muirgheasa.
  • Tadhg P. O Murchadha.
Motion declared carried.

When is the Committee Stage to be taken?

May I ask that it be taken to-morrow?

Has any notice been given?

No notice is required for the Committee Stage.

May I also ask leave to suspend Standing Orders in order to get the remaining stages of the Bill through?

The Deputy may do that to-morrow.

What opportunity is there to give due notice of amendments?

Under Standing Orders a Bill which is read a second time can be referred to a committee not necessarily four days ahead. If a Bill is read a Second Time to-day and the Committee Stage is to be taken to-morrow there is no time for amendments, but that is not a question dealt with in the Standing Orders. Has Deputy Johnson any other amendment besides the one he mentions to-day?

Not anticipating that the Bill would have got a Second Reading to-day I have not gone closely enough into the Bill to see, but there are a number of amendments I would like to bring forward if I had time to prepare them. I thought a motion to delete certain words from the Bill was a motion which required notice. I do not know what other Deputies may be proposing to do with this Bill.

We have constantly accepted amendments without notice in Committee. Would taking the Bill on Friday meet Deputy Johnson any better?

I will be able to read this Bill through to-morrow during the discussions on other Bills.

The Seanad proposes to sit on Friday to consider Bills which have come from the Dáil.

That means if the Bill is to be considered on Friday it will not become law until the Seanad meets after Christmas. In any event Deputy Hewat wants to suspend Standing Orders to take the final stages. He has not given sufficient notice and we will have to get a certain majority of Deputies under Standing Order 123 to approve of it.

Of course I am relying entirely on the support of the House, and as I have explained the urgency of the matter, I had hoped that it would be treated entirely as non-contentious. I recognise that if a Deputy treats it in a hostile way it will put me in a very difficult position. I will only have to bow to the wishes of the Dáil with the distinct understanding that if this Bill goes over the Recess we will be put in the position of facing another year without the seven members, and I would have thought that it would not be to the advantage of any party to leave us in that position.

I have no doubt that it would be quite possible for Deputies to agree in some way to a Bill which will secure the Deputy's object in the early part of the new session, on condition that he will agree to provide means whereby civic representatives can be appointed on this Board.

If I am not out of order I would like to say to Deputy Johnson that I do not think it is quite fair to put the sins of our neighbours on to us. As regards the civic members of the Board, it is not the wish of the Board that they should be in any way interfered with in the discharge of their duties on the Board.

The Board had a good deal to do with the abolition of the Corporation.

Nothing whatsoever.

Indirectly.

I would, of course, have to see the amendments, the amendments to replace the civic representatives on the Port and Docks Board. At the moment it does not appear to me to be in order on this Bill, so that that cannot be accomplished. Deputy Hewat can make a motion to take the Bill to-morrow, or on Friday as he pleases. If that is carried it can be taken to-morrow under the Standing Orders, but he has again to-morrow to get a certain very considerable majority to have the Standing Orders suspended in order to take further stages.

I have no alternative but to propose that the Bill be taken to-morrow and to leave it to the sense of the House to say whether I should get the facilities which I require.

Is that agreed?

Question—"That the Dublin Port and Docks Bill be referred to the Dáil sitting in Committee for consideration to-morrow"—put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 25 5; Níl, 5.

  • Seoirse de Bhulbh.
  • John J. Cole.
  • Máighréad Ní Choileáin Bean Uí Dhrisceóil.
  • Desmond Fitzgerald.
  • John Good.
  • John Hennigan.
  • William Hewat.
  • Seosamh Mac Bhrighde.
  • Pádraig Mac Fadáin.
  • Patrick McGilligan.
  • Seoirse Mac Niocaill.
  • Liam Mag Aonghusa.
  • Pádraig Mag Ualghairg.
  • James Sproule Myles.
  • John T. Nolan. Peadar O hAodha.
  • Séamus N. O Dóláin.
  • Pádraig O Dubhthaigh.
  • Eamon O Dúgáin.
  • Aindriú O Láimhín.
  • Pádraic O Máille.
  • Seán O Súilleabháin.
  • Caoimhghín O hUigín.
  • Seán Príomhdhail.
  • Liam Thrift.

Níl

  • Tomás Mac Eoin.
  • Tomás O Conaill.
  • Eoghan O Dochartaigh.
  • Seán O Laidhin.
  • Domhnall O Muirgheasa.
Motion declared carried.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 until 3 p.m. on Thursday, 11th December.
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