Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 12 Dec 1924

Vol. 9 No. 26

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE—DEPARTMENT OF INDUSTRY AND COMMERCE (RESUMED).

I desire to draw the attention of the Minister for Industry and Commerce to the invitation given him to state the position regarding Irish seamen, employed on British-owned or Northern Ireland boats, in respect of unemployment benefit. I would suggest to the Minister that he should continue his conversations with the British and Northern Ireland Governments with a view to reciprocity between the three Governments. I am told that there are not more than a couple of thousand seamen affected by those conversations and likely to be debarred from insurance benefit, if the conversations fail. But I am aware that within the past couple of months a Dublin crew engaged at the North Wall, Dublin, on a Belfast-owned ship sailed to America and back, and were discharged in Dublin port—the port at which they were engaged. Their unemployment cards were stamped with British stamps, and at present the men cannot claim benefit under the Unemployment Act. If the Minister presses the matter with the Governments concerned, the representatives of the seamen believe that good results will follow. It was said on the last occasion that seamen were not insurable. I have mentioned the case of this ship. The men's cards were stamped, but they are now unable to draw any unemployment benefit in the City of Dublin. I do not generally delay the Dáil more than five minutes when I stand up, and I will content myself with quoting this one case and asking the Minister what his intentions are with regard to Irish seamen.

I do not know whether it would be convenient now for the Minister to make a statement touching on the wider question of reciprocal arrangements. Perhaps it is taking the Minister too much at short notice. But if it is possible for the Minister to do so, it would be well if the Dáil were made aware, and the public, through the reports, of what the position is between himself and the Ministers for Labour in the Northern Parliament and the British Parliament.

I previously gave a promise that I would, at a suitable opportunity, make a statement with regard to the general question of reciprocal arrangements. That would involve the question raised now—the question of the seamen. The statement I have here is a somewhat lengthy one, and I do not know that it would come in suitably now. If the matter could be raised this day week—which is the only other opportunity we have—I could arrange to have copies of the statement circulated to Deputies beforehand. The statement is rather long, and I do not think that this is the proper time to make it.

Regarding the point put forward by Deputy Byrne, perhaps I may make a few remarks in advance of the general statement, to which I have referred. It is not correct to say, as Deputy Byrne has said, that those involved would only number 2,000. The number I got was about 12,000.

Mr. BYRNE

What I meant to say was that there were only a few thousand affected at present.

I have got the figure, 12,000, as the number who would normally be affected. On the only basis suggested to us for agreement, that would involve this State in a payment of about £34,000 per annum. That is with regard to the seamen.

There are labourers and others of the insured classes who go to work in England and have contributions paid for them into the English fund and who, when out of work, come back here and fall on our fund. The only suggestion made to date is that payment should be made to the fund of the country in which the man is working, and that benefit should come out of the fund of the country in which the man finds himself out of work. We have a considerable number of people who cross to England for employment, get employment, and have contributions paid for them on the English side. They come home here when out of work, and agreement on this basis would mean that they would fall on our fund, to which no contributions would have been paid by them. There is very little movement of labour the other way —English people coming across here getting employment, having their contributions paid to the fund of this country and then falling for benefit, when out of work, on their own fund in England. The normal payment on account of that, it is estimated, would be about £18,000. If we accepted the only suggestion made for agreement, this State would be involved in a payment likely to be as large as £50,000 per annum.

That is not a solution we could accept. We did make a suggestion on the basis of the only type of reciprocity which seems fair—that payments should be noted or an average taken over a certain number of years, or that actual payments made by people into a particular fund should be noted and that those payments should be credited to the fund of the country in which the insured person finds himself out of work. We have not been able to secure that. We made many attempts but could not secure reciprocity in that way. I have now only dealt with a few questions raised. The general question I hope to deal with, if facilitated, next Friday.

Is the statement such as could formally be laid on the table or published in any other way?

I could put it in such form that it could be laid on the table or circulated to Deputies.

Could the Minister circulate the statement through the Official Debates, so that we could refer to any points contained in it afterwards?

I could read it on Friday.

If a starred question were put down, it could be answered through the Official Debates.

The Minister has the right to circulate a statement, on the understanding that until the matter is raised in the House it is not to be published. Is that what is intended? On Friday the Minister will have the arrangement of the time of the House himself, and he can arrange for debate if he deems it necessary. We will now proceed with the consideration of the estimate, apart from the question of reciprocity.

Vote 52 put and agreed to.

I move to report progress.

Barr
Roinn