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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 22 Apr 1925

Vol. 11 No. 1

CUSTOMS RESOLUTIONS. - RESOLUTION 4—DRIED FRUITS.

I move:—

(1) That the additional duties on dried fruits which were first imposed by Section 8 of the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1915, and were continued up to the 1st day of August, 1925, by the Finance Act, 1924 (No. 27 of 1924), shall continue to be charged, levied, and paid on and from the 1st day of August, 1925, up to the 1st day of August, 1926.

(2) That the new import duties which were first imposed by Section 12 of the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1915, and were continued up to the 1st day of May, 1925, by the Finance Act 1924 (No. 27 of 1924), shall continue to be charged, levied, and paid from the said 1st day of May, 1925, up to the 1st day of May, 1926.

(3) That the provisions of Section 8 of the Finance Act, 1919, shall apply to the duties mentioned in this Resolution, with the substitution of the expression "Saorstát Eireann" for the expression "Great Britain and Ireland."

(4) It is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913.

These are the McKenna duties. This imposes duties on dry fruit at double the original rates and it imposes duties on cinematograph films, clocks and watches, musical instruments, and motor cars and motor cycles. We propose to continue these rates. The major portion, that is the portion dealing with cinematograph films, clocks and watches, musical instruments, motor cars and motor cycles, we regard as the type of revenue that arises very largely from luxury expenditure, and we have felt that we should make all possible reductions in taxation rather in things of a necessary character than in these matters. The loss in revenue that would take place if we were to drop these particular taxes would be fairly considerable, and we do not feel that it could be justified or that we should undertake it. The loss in revenue, if we were not to pass these duties, would amount to £370,000.

Perhaps the Minister would kindly segregate from that sum the amount that would be lost if the motor car taxes were not imposed. It would be a considerable portion of it.

The motor car proportion for the coming year, in view of the proceeds of these taxes last year, is estimated at £300,000.

I am obliged to the Minister. In regard to the renewal of these taxes I must at the earliest possible stage enter my individual protest. In England these taxes were imposed, not as revenue producing taxes at all, but for the purpose of protecting British industries. I am now speaking with regard to what are known as the McKenna Importation Duties on motor cars and motor cycles. These taxes were imposed in England before we had a Government of our own, to protect existing British industries, and when they had served that purpose in England they were removed. We are seeking to utilise these taxes, not for the purpose of protecting industries, but for the sole purpose of revenue. The Minister has rather laid stress on the point that the articles included under this head are articles of luxury. Does he mean to say that at this stage of the twentieth century motor cars in Ireland are articles of luxury? If he does say that, I think he is a little out of date. I consider that motor cars are anything but articles of luxury in Ireland, and I consider that they are essential to the future internal traffic, intercourse, intercommunication and trade within the four shores of this country. Unfortunately, we have not got a super-magnificent railway system, and so we are driven largely to use the roads. We have to go back to the roads now from the old coach days. We see that road traffic is the proper means, at present at any rate, of communication between the various trading centres in this country. What does this tax mean in regard to motor cars? This tax imposes a duty of 33? per cent. upon all motor cars coming from countries other than Great Britain or the other parts of the Empire. It imposes a duty of 22 and a fraction per cent. on motor cars coming from Great Britain and from places within the Empire. What does it amount to? Is it protecting any industries in this country? Have we got any great motor industries or even any motor industries in embryo? Have we anything in that way that is to be protected by these taxes? There is a Ford factory in Cork. Does that benefit in any way by these taxes? Do we get a Ford motor car cheaper in Ireland to-day because these taxes are imposed than we would if these taxes were not imposed? I, certainly, for one, believe that we do not. Instead of doing everything possible to encourage the import of all classes and kinds of motor cars and vehicles which we do not produce, for the development of the country, and of which there is no sign of our ever being able to produce, we are imposing on these cars an almost prohibitive import duty. At any rate we are making it more difficult for those who want to develop the trade of the country to do so than it would be if there were no taxes whatsoever on motor cars. Everybody knows that the motor industry, the distributing portion of it certainly, is in a very bad way in the Free State at the present time. Nobody will buy a car in this country if he can buy it elsewhere, and succeed in running it here for any length of time. That is not such an extraordinary proposition as some Deputies, perhaps, might be inclined to think, because anybody who goes out in the streets of Dublin any day and sees the numbers of the cars will see that they are foreign numbers and marks, and by foreign numbers and marks I mean English marks as well.

It is not so difficult, then, to purchase cars outside the Saorstát, and to run them, for a certain time, at any rate, within the Saorstát. That is the point. Why? That is done to avoid this unnecessary, and, I think, groundless and untenable, tax upon an article which it is not even suggested that we are ever going to produce here, and which, to my mind, now in the twentieth century is absolutely essential, and is not a luxury, for the progress and welfare of the country. In view of the fact that protests have been made so often, certainly during the last year, and that these protests have come from very many quarters, from trading quarters, business quarters, from tourist quarters, from motor distributors, and from other quarters, I think something should be done towards mitigating this taxation, if not removing it entirely. This, also, includes taxation of motor parts. If a tourist happens to be in the West of Ireland during the summer, and finds he has to get a spare part, he has to send to England for it; we do not manufacture them here. He sends across the water for it, and he has to pay duty on that part whether it is a small nut or an important portion of his engine. The very tiniest screw in his car to the most intricate portion of his engine has to have duty paid on it. That is bad enough, but what time has he to wait for it? Anyone who has to do with motor cars knows that the delay in getting through the Customs is absurd. If you send for parts of a motor car—I do not know whether the Minister has had any experience of it himself, but I have had—you will be very lucky if you get it within the space of three or four weeks, or perhaps three months. That is due to the unnecessary delay occasioned by these Customs tariffs. I do think it would be wise even still for the Minister to consider whether it would not be possible to do away, if not with the tax on cars, at any rate, with the tax on the spare parts. This is a matter that is hitting everybody in all parts of the Saorstát. It is hitting traders, professional men, and people engaged in the motor trade itself, and I think that this resolution should not be passed without at least making a protest, because nothing has been done to mitigate this grievance.

I want, in the first place, to renew the protest that I made last year on a similar resolution that the amounts of the duties levied are not stated in the resolution. I know the Minister is acting according to British precedent, but in this respect I think the British precedent is a bad one. The Dáil should not be asked to vote any duty without having an exact statement of the duty that it is voting. I have not the faintest idea of what the duty on dried fruits is, and I do not think any Deputies have. I have an idea of the duties referred to in subsection (2), which are 33? per cent. But we ought to have them on the paper before us before we are asked to pass a resolution of this kind. I agree with almost all that Deputy Redmond said as regards the duty on motor cars. These McKenna duties are duties that were imposed in Great Britain for the purposes of protection which have been found unsuitable in the country of their origin and repealed; they are still continued in this country, where they offer no protection of any kind whatever. On the last occasion that we were discussing this, the Minister informed us that there was a certain manufacturer of drums in his constituency. I think these were manufactured for export and not used in the Saorstát, and I do not think that that industry would be very severely hit by the importation of drums.

On the question of spare parts, I want to endorse Deputy Redmond's statement. The Minister objected last year to any exemption of spare motor parts because he said that the result would be that ingenious people would import sufficient spare parts to put their car together here; that they would have a car with certain parts taken out; that those parts would be imported separately and the car would be put together here. Even if that were so, it would create an assembling industry and might have some value. In practice, I do not believe it is impossible to schedule a list of parts that might be brought in without paying duty—small parts, such as nuts, springs, parts of the carburetter, and so on—while compelling the larger parts of the motor car, such as cylinders, wheels, and so on, to pay duty. That is a sufficient check on any evasion of that kind and it would simplify matters enormously, because not only do these spare parts have to pay duty, not only are they subject to delay, but a little nut, a bolt or a spring has to pay a minimum duty of 2/6 and also a Customs registration fee of 6d. So that if you are importing a small nut or bolt for one particular car, you have to pay at least 3/- on an article whose value might be only about 4d.

The Minister, I know, did something to try and meet the case last year, but he did not do enough. The matter was not pushed through, and I do hope that before the Finance Bill goes out of our ken he will be able to tell us that something more will be done in this matter. The yield of the tax is not the only thing; the cost of collection and the ease of collection are also very important factors in dealing with any tax. In the matter of this motor part duty, there is an amount of friction, delay and book-keeping that makes the tax a disadvantageous one to the community, whatever yield it might give to the Exchequer.

I want to turn to another duty that is included in this omnibus resolution— the duty on musical instruments. I raised this last year. That again is not a protective tax to any serious extent. The making of the musical instruments that are most commonly used, such as the piano, violin, and so on, is a trade requiring very highly-skilled workmen, many of whom have adopted it as a hereditary trade, who are not to be found in this country and whom we are not likely to find in this country. It is, in a sense, as the Minister says, a luxury tax, but it is also a tax on education. Music plays a part —I believe an increasing part—in education. You are taxing the raw material of education when you tax musical instruments. Apart from that, taking any luxury tax, you must take the question of whether the trade can bear the tax or not. I would say that possibly a 10 per cent. tax on musical instruments would be justifiable, but I believe that the 33? per cent. is killing the trade at the moment. There are those in the Dáil who can speak with greater knowledge, but we do not want to knock out any trade or industry, even if it is an importing industry, which at present employs labour and spends money in the State. We do not want to deprive the citizens of the amenities and conveniences of life. I do urge the Minister to inquire into this duty on musical instruments and see, not only whether it is justified or not, but whether its maintenance at the present level is justified.

I wish to support Deputies Redmond and Cooper in their objections to this resolution. On the introduction of last year's Budget I also raised the point with regard to this resolution, with particular reference to the duty on imported motor cars. I do not agree with the Minister that this is a luxury tax. In my opinion it is not a luxury tax. It is common knowledge that motor cars are now a necessity and not a luxury. That applies particularly to this country because the cars which are commonly used are the cheaper cars, very often of the American type. If the Minister wants to reach the luxury cars he can come at the owners by placing a tax on cars above a certain value.

There is one very strong objection to this tax; that it would interfere with the tourist traffic. The tourist traffic depends almost entirely on the availability of motor cars. The cost of motors being 33? per cent. above American prices and 22½ per cent. above English prices, together with the high annual duty, on top of the cost of upkeep, makes the cost of hiring motor cars at present almost prohibitive. It would be very much to the interests of the State, and helpful to the endeavour which is being made to promote the tourist traffic, if this duty were wiped out. It does, I believe, act to a certain extent as a protection. I believe it protects the Ford motor car industry here, but I believe a Ford motor car produced in the Saorstát is being sold at a price practically equal to the English price, plus the protective duty. So I have been informed. That is an indication of what we get from the promises sometimes made by manufacturers, that if they get protection they will produce an article not dearer than a similar article made outside the country.

I would remind the Minister that this tax was originally introduced in England purely as a temporary measure. My memory differs from that of the Deputies who have spoken. My recollection is that this duty was introduced for the purpose of saving shipping space, as motor cars and such bulky articles were taking up much more shipping space than the Government thought advisable, in view of the urgent necessity of having all available space for food and other necessary products.

I do not object to some of the articles mentioned in this resolution being taxed. I see no great objection to taxing cinema films, but it is a mistake to tax musical instruments. They are, perhaps, articles of amusement, but they are certainly very necessary. We have foreign melodeons, foreign tin whistles, and things of that kind being taxed.

Tin whistles are free of duty.

They are not musical instruments.

Melodeons are not free of duty. If the Minister travels to some parts of the country on Sunday afternoons or evenings he will find that foreign melodeons are an article of necessity, as well as luxury. With regard to the motor parts, I also took exception to that tax last year, and I made a suggestion to the Minister, which I think he considered, but finally said was not feasible: that a tax should not be placed on any article imported of a lesser value than £1. The reason for that is, not because of the duty, which is not perhaps so great, but because of the obstruction which takes place in the importing of small parts. If anybody is the possessor of a motor bicycle and something goes wrong with the gear box or some other part of it, he has to send away for the part either directly or through an agent. Owing to the Customs difficulties—I do not say the obstruction of the Customs, because I believe the Customs people are doing their work very well now—but because of the difficulties which are between him and the manufacturer, he finds that his machine is laid up for at least three weeks and sometimes longer. I think it would be well worth the Minister's while to consider the saving in time, patience, and even in temper, which would result from the removal of this tax. If sufficient thought is given to the matter, some method could be devised whereby the small parts required for repairs to motors would be allowed in free. I think the Minister could easily avoid the wholesale importation of small parts with the idea of assembling machines in this country.

With regard to the tax on cinematograph films, I want to ask the Minister if films for educational purposes are brought into the country to any extent, and if the tax has any detrimental effect on their importation? I do not know much about the matter, but I think that we must look forward and see to it that the cinema, as well as providing amusement for the people in the cities and towns, can be utilised by the people of the country and perhaps, in the rural districts, in schools, for educational purposes. I think Deputies will agree that the rural inhabitants of this country can learn a good deal from the work and the methods of other countries.

Perhaps the urban dwellers can do likewise. If, at the moment, films for educational purposes are subjected to the same tax as, say, films depicting the doings of "The Thief of Bagdad," then I am afraid encouragement is not given to those who would seek to teach the people by means of educational films. I think the Minister should take this matter into account, if he has not done so, so that the people generally might learn from the methods of the peoples of other countries and benefit accordingly. Such opportunities are not available at present and I think it would be very valuable if they were provided. My attention was called to this matter some time ago by people who thought to avail of these films for educational purposes, but who found considerable difficulty in doing so because of the tax. I would like the Minister to say that films used for educational purposes can be brought into the Saorstát free of tax.

It is with considerable amazement that I learned from the Minister's speech to-day that it is proposed to continue the duty at the very high figure imposed on musical instruments. I am aware that the Minister has been supplied with a good deal of material from the small number of persons engaged in this business, in which they point out the very great disadvantage under which they labour as a result of the rate of duty charged. I am rather loath to speak of this matter, as it affects my personal business, but I think it is also one of general interest on which strong representations should be made to the Dáil, with a view to getting the Minister to reconsider the attitude he has taken up with regard to the duty.

The Minister said that the articles to which the duty applies were luxuries. Undoubtedly music is a luxury. It is a luxury in so far as life could go on without it, but we are a civilised people, I hope, and no one will deny that music is one of the amenities of life in modern civilisation. Surely it is not the intention of the Minister to withdraw from the ordinary affairs of life those things which make it sweeter and pleasanter. While music can be considered a luxury, in the sense that it is not an entire essential of life, I think it can be maintained that it is essential for the ordinary, easy progress of life and for the amenities of life in the ordinary everyday affairs of the people. I think its influence in this country has been for good. The fact, if I may mention it, that our national emblem, up to recently, was a musical instrument, shows that it has some standing in tradition in this respect. I only mention this because I think even the Minister will not deny that music has become an essential of life to the Irish people.

In addition music has become an essential part of the education in the country. If it has not, why does the Minister provide the Minister for Education in the Saorstát with money for the teaching and carrying on of musical programmes in the schools? Money is provided by the Dáil and administered by the Department of Education for teaching music to our children. It seems to me a rather stupid proceeding to provide money for the musical education of the people while making it almost impossible for them to secure the means by which they can put into practice the teaching they have obtained.

I do not think it can be argued, even by the Minister, that this duty of 33? per cent. on musical instruments is in any sense a protective duty. Deputy Cooper mentioned that drums were made in the Minister's constituency. I say, if they are, they are not made in sufficient quantities to be a menace to the drum makers of England. They are only a drop in the ocean of the number of musical instruments of that kind that are imported. Even if the duty was protective, I hold it is so exorbitant and high that it fails to serve its purpose. The manufacture of musical instruments such as pianos, band instruments, gramophones, melodeons, that we find throughout the country, has become a very highly specialised industry requiring tradition and long training. As Deputy Cooper said, that training has been handed down in families. In time we could build up a musical manufacturing industry in this country, but it would be a growth of years. I hold, and I venture to think that I have some expert knowledge in this matter, that 33? per cent. ad valorem duty in the meantime is not a help, but rather a hindrance to the growth of that industry.

I had occasion to give evidence before the Fiscal Commission that was set up by the Minister some few years ago, and I think if the Minister had perused the evidence, he would have been interested, and would have found sufficient data to convince him that it was not possible by a tariff such as has been erected against musical instruments to assist the manufacture of musical instruments in this country in a hurry. That can only be done in the progress of years, and by slow growth. A smaller duty would serve the purpose equally well. This duty is an inheritance of our Government from the English Government. It was put on in England, Deputy Heffernan suggested, to help to save shipping space. I understand it was put on to help industries that existed in England, and to prevent dumping by foreign manufacturers, because at that time the currency of the Continent had more or less collapsed, and the manufacturers were able to get instruments into England, and sell them in England at prices with which the English manufacturers could not compete. That, I think, was the origin of the McKenna duties.

They served their purpose in so far as they gave the English musical instrument manufacturers a breathing space, or time to reorganise their industry. At the present moment, when the German currency has been stabilised, and is now on the dollar basis, and when the English pound sterling is not up to full standard, on the basis of the Rentenmark the German musical instrument manufacturers cannot compete with the English manufacturers on their own ground. Therefore the English statesmen, with a good deal of wisdom, have removed those duties from England. Owing to the large circulation of the English daily papers in this country, our public read, from day to day, advertisements of low-priced musical instruments which they cannot obtain in this country, owing to the high import duties. The duty itself is thirty-three and one-third per cent. ad valorem. It is not a protective duty and is certainly an unfair one. I do not think it is fair to ask the struggling father of a family, who is trying to educate his children in the better and more artistic side of life and is perhaps giving them some musical education, to purchase musical instruments and pay one-third of the very high cost of those instruments as a tax to the revenue. I do not think it is fair, and it is certainly putting an undue burden on one portion of the population. I think if we are going to have any musical education in the country or any development of musical knowledge—the Government have not been behind in this particular matter in so far as they have, under their own auspices, one of the finest musical combinations probably in the world—and if we are going to develop it on proper lines, it would not be too much to ask the Minister to reduce the duty, which is a heavy incubus on the sale of manufactured musical instruments, from thirty-three and one-third per cent. I think it is too heavy a burden to ask a man to bear. Were musical instruments all instruments which could be bought at a few shillings the thirty-three and a third per cent. might not be a big consideration, but in view of the fact that the very cheapest piano manufactured costs a dealer anything around £40 to £50, and that on that he has to pay one-third ad valorem duty, which must necessarily be handed on to the purchaser—probably with a little addition in respect of his capital investment—it is asking the purchaser, the hard-working father of a family or the father of a family who puts his children to music as a profession, too much to pay this heavy amount as a tax to the revenue. That is the point of view of the ordinary member of the public.

With greater reluctance I pass on to the point of view of those who are handling those instruments as a matter of trade. I am reluctant to let my personal interests interfere with my public duties. I have submitted to the Minister a memorandum covering those points, and I had hoped he would have given it more favourable consideration. It has to be remembered that the largest part of the musical instruments imported into Ireland comes from the Continent. Before the war the dealer could purchase at all times on very favourable credit terms. He could purchase any of his requirements on a three or a six months' bill, which gave him an opportunity to dispose of the goods before he was called upon to pay for them. The largest distributing houses which were spread over England and Ireland educated the public into this credit system whereby musical instruments of high value were sold on long deferred methods of payment enabling the wage-earning and the smaller salaried class to procure musical instruments. That has all gone by the board. Owing to the financial conditions in Europe to-day you cannot buy even from the largest or wealthiest of the manufacturers of musical instruments on any other terms except cash with order or cash against documents, which means that you must pay at the port on arrival. You have to pay the invoice price to your bankers or the exporter's bankers before you release the musical instruments. From no source outside England can he buy musical instruments on any other basis, and England is not by any means the largest source of supply for us. Added to this, the purchaser has to pay one-third on the invoice price, not on the invoice price alone, but the invoice price plus the carriage and plus all port dues. On that the ad valorem duty is struck. It does not need a great deal of knowledge of business to realise that you cannot change the public mind very quickly. The public were trained to this method of purchasing by long terms of credit. They cannot be easily changed, especially in view of the fact that the first cost of musical instruments to the dealer has risen by more than 100 per cent. on the pre-war value. Consequently the purchaser has to pay a much higher price and has to look for credit terms to enable him to purchase. It does not need a great deal of business knowledge to realise how difficult it is for any trader to carry on under those conditions. I put it to the Minister that the musical trade in the Saorstát is not so extensive that it can be wisely embarrassed in business. The total number of musical instrument dealers of any standing in the country could be counted on the fingers of one hand easily. The trade submitted to the Minister here figures showing the actual reduction in the number of instruments imported and consequently in the number they sold. These showed that they had gone down by half. I think that should be sufficient to induce the Minister to consider his decision in this matter. The difficulties have become so enormous that practically every house in the trade—some of them have offered the Minister to submit their books for inspection— have found business becoming more and more difficult because they cannot capitalise owing to the enormous increase in first cost, and in the credit terms used in the disposal of the instruments. I put this to the Minister in the sense of an appeal—that it is an injustice to the small number of traders involved.

I would point out to the Minister that this is a trade of some repute and standing, that the business places of those engaged in it are located in the best parts of the cities and towns, that they pay very high rates and taxes and, in the sense of appeal, I would say to the Minister that their views, when put reasonably before him, should receive his consideration. They are prepared to submit any evidence required in order to support their arguments. They should not be crushed out of business, which is really what will happen owing to the way in which they are embarrassed and owing to the difficulty of financing their business.

I would put another point of view to the Minister—the point of view dealing with revenue. I venture to say that the total revenue obtained from this tax is not of sufficient importance to justify the Minister in its rigorous continuance. The total revenue obtained from all duties under this comprehensive resolution will amount to £370,000. Of that, we are informed by the Minister that he expects that motors will bring in £300,000, leaving a net balance to cover all the other items in the resolution of £70,000. I may not have those figures correctly, but, if I am wrong, the Minister will set me right. I put it to the Minister that the small proportion of that £70,000 represented by duty on musical instruments does not justify him in continuing the embarrassingly high duties which at present obtain. I hold, further, that if the duty were reduced to a reasonable figure—I understand the trade are prepared to accept, say, 20 per cent. ad valorem—the increased sales which would take place, in meeting the demand that is there, would safeguard the revenue against loss. Rather would he gain in collectible revenue by the change. At present the people cannot rise to the level of the retail charges. I would ask him to compare the figures, in round numbers, of importation last year, as compared with that of the previous year. I think he will find that there is a reduction of not less than one-third. At least it is the experience of those in the trade—I have had figures sent me —that sales of new instruments have gone down by, at least, one-third. Whatever increase in trade they have is in second-hand instruments, which pay no duty. If the duty were reduced the revenue would not be less, and it would probably be more than it is under this prohibitive duty of 33? per cent. With regard to the question of values, it is true to say that the lowest-priced German piano has gone up since the 1st January of last year by £8, and in some cases by £9—that is the very lowest-priced German piano—on which a duty of £3 or more is payable. That makes a difference of £11 or £12. The Minister may have examined the figures in money values and, with this increased price, that would give him a wrong impression.

I suggest that he should rather examine the figures relating to the number of instruments imported. The effect of this duty is to make the traders' position practically impossible. I can say sincerely, from my own experience —and I venture to hope that my words will have some attention paid to them— that the trade has been practically brought to a standstill. The purchase of new musical instruments of high value—by that, I mean pianos—has practically stopped because of this high duty. The trade does not comprise many people but it employs a number of highly-skilled persons, and pays high wages and high rates. I would, in the sense of appeal, ask the Minister to give some consideration to this question and to give those interested in the trade some hope that he will reconsider and reduce the duties to a reasonable figure, at least to 20 per cent. Although the traders have already paid duty on their present valuable stocks, they are prepared to drop that in order to get business moving again. Those engaged in the trade are, of course, affected by the general economic condition of the country, and I would ask the Minister to give their position as serious consideration as possible and reduce the duty of 20 per cent. approximately.

I also disagree with this tax on musical instruments. When you put a tax on musical instruments, you put a tax on music. We all know that the Irish are a musical people. Just take the connection between music and education. For instance, take the gramophone in a country house. I hold it is a source of education to the youth of that house. They can listen to John McCormack or they can be talking Scotch to Harry Lauder if they like. They can listen to all the great singers and to all the great orators—that is, if they are not privileged to come here. What a grand thing it is in a village to have a nice band. In the evenings, now that we have Summer Time, and an extra hour of daylight, they can assemble after tea and go out for a march two or three miles in the country. Half the bands are smashed now, and how disappointed the bandsmen will be when they cannot buy musical instruments on account of the tax. A few months ago if a big meeting were called by Ministers, how glorious they would feel when they would hear the music along O'Connell Street and see the big crowd following. At that time, you could not get one of them to say the word "tax" for the world. When he would see them coming along he would know that was not the time to put a tax on. He would be in the height of his glory. There are a great many other advantages derived from music in this country.

It keeps people out of publichouses.

It keeps them out of publichouses and takes them out to dances. But, now, dances are condemned, too—and some of them are condemned rightly. I was amazed to-day to find that there was not a tax on "jazzing." It was the only thing left out. No matter where you go, you are not fully equipped without music. For instance, if you go to church on Sunday you have beautiful music. You can pray twice as well as a result of that, and with one twist of the organ you fancy you can see the Promised Land. I appeal to the Minister for Finance not to put a tax on those musical instruments. There are lots of things he can tax besides musical instruments. I would not be in order in saying now that he should tax flour and allow wheat in, and I will hold over my remarks until the next day.

I want to endorse the view expressed by Deputy Baxter with regard to educational films. I think the amount likely to be sacrificed by giving a preference in respect of films of an educational character would not be very great, and machinery is available for making differentiation, owing to the fact that there is a censorship at the present time. There is no doubt that if there were a distinct preference, in respect of tax, given to films which the censor decided were of an educational class, it would change the character of the shows to a very considerable extent.

The story was told about 18 months ago, I think, when the cinema people were up in arms, that educational films were at a discount, and that the public were not at all anxious to enjoy them. I think the fact was that they were more prejudicial to the exhibitor somehow or other. He thought it was far more attractive to put on films of a sensational, rather than of an educational, character. I think if they found that it was possible to get in films at a little lower rate of tax which the censor was prepared to certify were of an educational character, we should then have a change in the general atmosphere of the cinema house. I support very heartily the Deputy who raised this matter in his view respecting a preference for educational films. There is, of course, the other consideration, that cinematographic shows might be used directly and avowedly for the purpose of education in the schools to illustrate lectures. That should be definitely encouraged and not discouraged. If it could be possible to abolish the tax entirely on educational films, it would, I suggest, be of the greatest possible advantage. I think the cost to the revenue would be so slight that the education would be bought at a very cheap rate indeed.

I am not going to follow Deputies into the musical end of the debate, because I think the points from that angle have been put very well already. With regard to the tax on motor cars and on motor parts, I have a few words to say. The argument that a motor car is a luxury could not, I think, be seriously advanced at the present time by anyone laying a claim to sanity. It enters so much, as a necessity, into the life of the community, and occupies such a useful place as regards the traffic of the country, that I do not think anyone could say, except perhaps by way of a joke, that it was a luxury.

Some are without the necessity of keeping them.

The Deputy's requirements do not take him far, except to the Dáil. I congratulate him on not having any expenses worth speaking about. If this tax was designed to help or protect an existing industry, we could understand it, but it is nothing of the sort. It is alleged, of course, that there is a car manufactured or assembled in Ireland. As to how far that is true, or whether it deserves to be called a car, I will not say. As regards the tax on motor parts, those engaged in the trade and those who own cars and who have had experience in trying to get parts cleared by the Customs authorities at the port, will I am sure, assent to the proposition that it is one that could only have been devised by the Spanish Inquisition. As far as the owners of cars and those engaged in the trade are concerned, this tax on motor parts is really one of the greatest tortures that could possibly be imagined. It takes days, by sending messengers up and down to the ports, to get small parts cleared. That is all very well, of course, for the trader carrying on business in the city of Dublin. He happens to be near the port, and he can engage two or three messengers for that particular work. In the end, of course, it is the unfortunate owner of a car who has to pay for all that expense incurred by the trader.

The position is much worse in the country where the trader lives a long distance from the port. Sometimes he cannot get small parts cleared at the port unless he sends a special messenger up to Dublin. In many cases these small parts are held at the port by the Customs' authorities for weeks and weeks. I think a continuance of this tax could only be advocated by someone who wants to exasperate the people. It is a tax that brings in very little money. The expenses incurred in the collection of it are far more than the actual duties which have to be paid on the small parts that come in. If the Minister cannot see his way to abolish the tax on motor cars, I, at least, would appeal to him, in all seriousness, to abolish this tax on motor parts. As a matter of fact, the cars which require new parts or replacements are mostly old cars that were purchased at a time when there was no such tax as the one we are now discussing. The majority of these cars are old models which are no longer on the market, and parts for them are not kept in stock. Therefore, when new parts are required for them they have to be manufactured.

I do not know whether the Minister himself is the owner of an old car, but I think I could not wish him anything more annoying than to be such an owner, or to be in the position of trying to get parts for it cleared at the ports. I am sure that if he had such an experience it would change his views altogether on this matter. In view of the small amount of money which this tax on motor parts brings in, and of the annoyance and worry caused to the owners of cars, I hope the Minister will see his way to abolish it altogether. To say that a new car can be got together by the importation of parts is simply ridiculous. A statement of that kind could only be put forward as a joke, and not as a sensible argument. I would again appeal to the Minister to give his serious consideration to the points which I have put before him.

I would like to add a few words to what Deputy Gorey has said as regards the trouble that arises from the tax on motor parts. A great effort is now being made in the Free State to encourage a large number of people from other countries to visit this country of ours during the coming summer. It is also urged that they should bring their motor cars with them in order that they may thoroughly explore our scenery. With that view, I think we shall all agree, and I am sure Deputies here would be very anxious to do everything to encourage a large number of tourists to visit this country. What would be the result if we pass this resolution? Let us look at it as practical men. A number of people will bring their cars as a result of the efforts that have been made to induce them to do so. The roads, unfortunately, as some of us know, who do a little motoring in distant parts of Ireland, are not of an ideal character at the moment. A number of those motorists with cars in the habit of running on roads in England and Scotland, if they try to carry out, exactly, the same practice on our roads, will find that the cars will not withstand such work on the Irish roads as they would on the English roads. And they will find themselves stranded possibly for parts.

The tax on these parts, I am quite sure, instead of being a source of revenue to the State, is rather a charge of a different character, because I am quite satisfied that from the number of these parts that come through, the tax does not pay for the time taken up by the officials who are engaged in its collection; so that, from the point of view of revenue, the tax, on these parts, does not contribute at all sufficient to pay the charges incurred by the State in connection with them. If these taxes are not a source of revenue, what is the idea of keeping them on? Take the unfortunate tourist who suffers a break-down, as not at all unusual with tourists. He will find it takes at least ten days before he will be able to get in the new part, and that will be the minimum time required to get in a new part. If a motor tourist in Connemara has a break-down and wants a part he will wire across to England for it. He gets a wire back saying the part has been shipped, but it will take another two or three weeks to get it through the Customs. What will a tourist, with that experience, do? He will clear out of the country, immediately, and go away with a very bad impression. He will probably stop a number of other visitors coming here. This kind of thing will produce a very bad effect, and will do an immense amount of injury to the tourist traffic of the country.

I ask the Minister to consider the matter of the motor tax from that aspect. I have had some other aspects of the question brought before me during the last few days. If you order a motor car-replacement part from the other side, when it comes here you have to pay duty on it. But the order may not have been carried out in accordance with instructions, and the part does not fit, and has to be returned. In that case there is no refund of the duty. No matter what aspect you take of this duty it seems to be framed in such a way as to cause irritation to those engaged in the trade rather than to encourage revenue. From all these sides I urge that in the national interest the Minister should seriously consider the removal of this tax on motor parts.

With regard to other taxes, I do not want to take up the time of the Dáil, but I am quite with what Deputy Baxter said about the removal of the tax on films of an educational character. I am quite satisfied that it will be necessary in the near future to make use of the cinema-house as part of our educational system, and, in view of that development, I think it would be exceedingly wise for the Minister to consider, in conjunction with the Minister for Education, whether it would not be desirable to remove the tax entirely upon films of an educational character. Further, at a later date, I would urge that it should be made compulsory on all cinemas that films of an educational character should occupy a certain portion of the time of all performances. Otherwise the cinemas are going to do an immense amount of harm instead of an immense amount of good in the country.

I move that the Dáil sits after 8.30, but not later than 10 o'clock this evening, and that there be an adjournment for half-an-hour.

Question put and agreed to.
Sitting suspended at 6.25 p.m. and resumed at 7.15 p.m.

All that has to be said in connection with these duties is this: I suppose all taxation is evil; but we have to have some taxation, and when we are reducing taxation it is a question as to where we will give the reduction. You could not remit these particular duties without affecting remissions proposed elsewhere or putting on other duties. It does seem to me that, on the whole, the articles affected by these duties are good subjects of taxation. I never said, or did not intend to say at any rate, that motors are luxuries. There is no doubt that the luxury element does come in. I know various people who own motor cars. I know people who bought motor cars, and I do not know anybody who uses his motor car solely for business. There are very few who buy cars who do not use them for pleasure jaunts. Very often people who do use their cars a little for business, use them more for convenience in pleasure expeditions. The man who goes into town in the morning in a car for business could just as well go in in the train. But possibly he wants to stay late at night, and it is very convenient for him to have the car to travel in and out with. There is certainly that element to be considered. A large proportion of the cars that pay tax are, I should say, cars bought partially for pleasure, and to that extent I think the tax can be said to be a good tax, so far as any tax is good.

There is some element of protection in this tax. I do not know what will be the future of the Ford industry in Cork. I do say that it is of some benefit to them. I also say that part of the reason of the Ford car being dearer here than it is outside is because a certain proportion of the parts is imported and those parts are not made in Cork. They pay and the price of the cars as they are sold here does contain some proportion of duty. It is not simply that Fords at Cork pocket the whole of the duty and sell their car here for the same price as that at which they sell it outside. I do not know the details of the accounting, but I do know there is some element of duty in the price of the Ford car as sold here.

We have thought over the question of letting parts in, duty free, and we have come to the conclusion that if we were to do that it would be better to remit the duty altogether. At present, including the duty on parts imported by Fords, the receipts from the duty on parts is nearly £100,000, as against £200,000 received from the duty on cars. I have no doubt if we relieved parts of duty, the number of separate parts that would be imported would increase very considerably; but there will always be the difficulty of deciding when you have a car and when you have simply a number of parts. In general, the position is such that probably the duty would be halved; perhaps we would get less than one-half of the present duty if we remitted or abolished the tax on parts. Our feeling about the matter is that if we can do anything, and if we feel at any time that we ought to do anything, it ought to be in the nature of an entire abolition of the duty.

Supposing the parts are for replacements, would not that be quite different from what is mentioned by the Minister?

If you make distinctions of that sort, you do not hasten the getting of goods through the Customs. The more fine distinctions you draw, the more investigations have to be undertaken, and the longer delay there is likely to be. Deputies here have complained that the delay involved in the Customs weighed more with them than the actual duty paid. Deputy McCullough referred to the musical instrument trade. I think he admits that it is very largely a luxury trade. He says it cannot bear the tax, and he suggests that if that duty were decreased imports would go up. If I could be convinced that imports would go up I would be very much influenced indeed. After all, we are really imposing these taxes for revenue, and if we are going to get more revenue by a remission of duty, that would be what we desire.

I do not want to say anything against the argument put forward about the struggling father of a family buying musical instruments for his children. I do think that most of the neighbours of the struggling father would be very annoyed if any more musical instruments were got. Houses engaged in the musical instrument trade may be finding it difficult to carry on, but so have many other houses been finding it difficult to carry on. Where you have agricultural depression and unemployment, such as we have had, all sorts of houses are affected. In such circumstances the demand for all sorts of goods tends to fall off. Probably a trade like the musical trade—a trade which is dealing with non-necessities—feels that dulness more quickly and more keenly. I would suggest to the Deputy that possibly even a shilling remission on income tax may have some effect in reviving that particular trade. I would also suggest that probably part of the cause of dulness is the acquiring of wireless sets by people. Possibly when we come along to establish our broadcasting station here, no remission of duty would enable the trade to pick up. However, the point that I would be glad, at a later stage, to hear more from him on, and to consider with him, would be the point of increases of imports and increases of revenue as a result of remission of duty.

The question of educational films is one that I think I can promise to consider very sympathetically. I have not so far looked into the matter, but I should say, just speaking on the matter for the first time, that the revenue involved would be very slight indeed. The number of educational films that would be brought in, to the exclusion of other films, would be small and I do not think there would be much loss of revenue there, and before the later stages of the Bill come on, I would promise to consider that as closely as possible and to consider it sympathetically. The resolution which is now submitted involves £370,000 of revenue. We cannot lose that revenue without getting something else, because in the matter of the reduction of taxation perhaps we have really gone to the very limit. We have gone as far as we possibly could go, in the matter of revenue losses through reduction. We could not go further. If we were not to have this tax, or if we were to have any modification of these taxes that would cause any appreciable loss of revenue, we would have to take some other steps to make it up.

Motion put and agreed to.
Barr
Roinn