DÁIL IN COMMITTEE. - LOCAL AUTHORITIES (COMBINED PURCHASING) BILL, 1925—REPORT STAGE (RESUMED). – Dáil Éireann (4th Dáil) – Tuesday, 28 Apr 1925

DÁIL IN COMMITTEE. - LOCAL AUTHORITIES (COMBINED PURCHASING) BILL, 1925—REPORT STAGE (RESUMED).

Mr. DOLAN

On behalf of Deputy Duggan, I beg to move:—"In page 4, before Section 9, to insert a new section as follows":—

9.—(1) For the purpose of advising and assisting the Minister in the performance of his duties under this Act, there shall be established an advisory committee (in this section referred to as the committee) which shall be styled the Local Supplies Advisory Committee and shall consist of five persons to be appointed from time to time as occasion requires as follows, that is to say:—

(a) two persons, being elected members of county or county borough councils in Saorstát Eireann, by the General Council of Irish County Councils, and

(b) two persons, being elected members of urban district councils or commissioners of towns in Saorstát Eireann, by the Association of Municipal Councils of Ireland, and

(2) The several members of the Committee shall, unless they previously die or resign, respectively retain their membership for such period from their appointment as the Minister shall prescribe, but shall be eligible for re-appointment.

(3) Three members of the committee shall be a quorum, and the members of the committee shall at every meeting elect from amongst their number the chairman for that meeting and such chairman shall have a second or casting vote.

(4) The committee shall have a secretary who shall be nominated by the Minister.

(5) The committee shall meet whenever summoned by the Minister and also on such other occasions as the committee may from time to time determine.

(6) The committee shall consider and advise the Minister on all matters which shall be referred to it by the Minister and the committee may also at its discretion consider and if it thinks fit report to the Minister on any other matter relating to or affecting the supply of commodities to local authorities under this Act.

(7) Payments may be made by the Minister to members of the committee, to such extent as may be sanctioned by the Minister for Finance, in respect of repayment of travelling expenses and payment of subsistence allowance.

This is a new section which was promised to be introduced on the Report Stage.

Mr. JOHNSON

The objection I have to the new section is to paragraphs (a) (b) and (c). I asked whether the General Council of County Councils was a statutory authority, and the President thought it was. I take that as being satisfactory, if it is. Is the Association of Municipal Councils of Ireland a statutory body? If it is, I am satisfied. I am quite sure the Association of Chambers of Commerce is not a statutory body. Therefore, I think it is quite unwise to put in names of associations which may be temporary, which may have no representative authority in a year, two years, or five years, and do not mean anything within the law. They are not recognisable. It would be far better to leave the matter of the selection of these persons in a somewhat general form to the Minister— you can say "representatives of commercial interests" if you like—rather than put in the name of an association which may be representative to-day, but possibly may not be representative to-morrow. It is not recognisable in any way, because it is not an incorporated body, and, therefore, cannot be recognised in law. To put that into a statute of this kind would, I think, be informal and unwise.

The PRESIDENT

I regret that I am not in a position to answer Deputy Johnson with regard to (b). I do not know whether that body is a statutory one. I do know that it holds meetings and that I was a member of it on two occasions. I do know that it is keenly interested in housing and that it concerns itself with matters affecting the general business of local authorities. In connection with this Advisory Committee we want to have members from urban districts, as distinct from members of county councils, and it was thought advisable to have representation for them. I would not bind myself to the particular distribution of representation as it stands here, but it was put down with a view to meeting the case that the Minister ought to have some such body advising him. Certain representatives from various local authorities have been occasionally in touch with the trade department, and the trade department got a good deal of valuable information and advice in connection with this policy of combined purchasing. It would be advisable to have some representation from the County Councils General Council, but as the needs of some of the smaller urban districts might not be so prominently before the minds of that council, we thought it advisable to bring in this association. If it should happen that this particular body did not meet, I should say that the Minister ought to have power to nominate, or to get advice from the County Councils General Council as to the nomination of members of urban councils on this advisory body. There is a departure in the appointment of a member from the Association of Chambers of Commerce, but as the commodities in the majority of cases are commercial commodities, and as these people are experts in that matter, after advising the Minister for some time it might convince them that this Department was run on business lines, and the resultant confidence will be of immense benefit. While it may be that the Association of Municipal Councils is not a statutory body, it is advisable to get representation from urban councils upon this advisory body. As I said, I am not committed to this particular distribution of membership.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

resumed the Chair.

Mr. JOHNSON

We would be committed if we passed this section. That is the whole point.

The PRESIDENT

Yes.

Mr. JOHNSON

The proposal is to embody in the Bill that two persons be nominated by the General Council of County Councils. That, I have no objection to, because I understand from the President that that Council is a statutory body, and therefore can be identified. We are not so sure whether the Association of Municipal Councils is a statutory body. If it is, it can be identified.

The PRESIDENT

It certainly has all the life of a statutory body.

Mr. JOHNSON

No doubt. We are to put it in a statute, and if non-representative next year, if it becomes a council to which only two urban councils send representatives, that is the body you must, under this statute, give power to appoint these nominees. My objection is even greater to paragraph (c), the Association of Chambers of Commerce. That body exists to-day, I believe. It may not exist to-morrow. It may break up like other associations. It may have a split and the smaller body may retain the name. Two bodies may retain the name and each may claim to he the Association of Chambers of Commerce. Who is to decide? The formal point is that there is no such body which can be recognised, which will be permanent, and the name of which should be put into a statute. There would be, at least, as much claim to put in the Irish Trades' Union Congress. There has been a steady refusal to name a body like that which is not statutory, may not be permanent, and by the time this Bill comes into active operation, may be defunct. There may be two bodies calling themselves the Irish Trades' Union Congress. Someone has to decide. The naming of bodies in this way is, I think, undesirable, unless they are statutory and can be identified. I would suggest to the Minister to withdraw the section and have it remodelled and introduced in the Seanad.

Mr. GOOD

Could the Deputy tell us, even if we had a body formed in the way he mentioned, would that give any greater guarantee than this section gives of its existence? None of us can guarantee the continued existence of any body, no matter how formed. The objection the Deputy makes in this particular case might be applied generally to any body. Doubtless, the Deputy is judging other bodies from the standpoint of those with which he is more closely an touch. I do not know that it applies with the same force. While there may be considerable difference of opinion in some bodies, I do not know that it is fair to apply that argument to other bodies. I do not want to go into details of that nature, but I think I have said enough to show, possibly, what is the guiding spirit in the mind of the Deputy. I can speak with some authority on this subject, as I happen to be a member of a council, the object of which was to give advice of a particular character to the Government of Great Britain. The Government of Great Britain found that that body, by reason of the interests it represented, was most useful. The particular body the President has mentioned in this amendment stands in exactly the same position with regard to the Saorstát Government as the other body did with the Government of Great Britain. I know that the British Government found that body of the greatest assistance, and I am sure that if our Government seeks to get the same information, or brings this body into its confidence, they will get equally helpful information.

Mr. HUGHES

I hope whatever the President does he will not change the wording of the amendment. The Association of Municipal Councils has been in existence for, I think, over ten years, and was recognised by the Local Government Department to an extent that no other association was recognised. For instance, I know they recognised it as far as giving the councils authority to send representatives to the meetings and to pay their expenses. The auditors also always recognised anything done in that way. Short of an Act of Parliament establishing it as a council, everything that the Government could do to recognise this body was done. It gave very useful information to the Local Government Board in connection with housing, town-planning and things like that. I think representatives of such a body would be very useful on an Advisory Board of this kind, as its members know exactly what is wanted by municipal authorities. The representatives of county councils know exactly what is wanted for county homes and for rural areas. There are things wanted in urban areas that these people are not capable of giving advice on, and for that reason I believe it is essential that urban councils should be represented on this body.

Mr. JOHNSON

I quite agree.

The PRESIDENT

The case, as I see it, is if this body were a statutory body objection would not be so strong There is certainly a case for the continuance of (a) and (b).

Mr. JOHNSON

My objection is a formal one. It is an objection of a legal form and I think I am right that to put into a statute reference to an association which would have to be the subject of all kinds of legal decisions as to what it consisted of, and what was its composition is informal, and that we should not bind ourselves to it under this Bill.

The PRESIDENT

The Deputy has me at a disadvantage. The principle is to give representation from these two bodies. If it subsequently transpires that it would be advisable to make the Association of Municipal Councils of Ireland a statutory body I will certainly put that view before the Minister. I do not know whether it is statutory. I think it is not. I think the General Council of County Councils was a body that might have been more largely used than it was during the last twenty years. I think there were only one or two meetings in the year, perhaps quarterly, but that it should have a very useful function was evident when I was Minister for Local Government. I would undertake to consult the Minister for Local Government as regards the other point.

Mr. JOHNSON

Does that mean that we are to pass it in its present form?

The PRESIDENT

I hope so. Otherwise it means putting back the Bill for a week. In any case if it were not a statutory body I would not be in a position to do it, but if Deputy Johnson presses me I will do so.

Mr. JOHNSON

I would suggest to the Minister, apart from the Bill itself which I object to, that this particular section is one that we should not, in its present from, tie ourselves to, because I think it makes us look rather foolish, and that the Minister would, on obtaining advice, bring that proposition forward in, say, the Seanad, if he does not want to delay the further consideration of the Bill. For my own part I do not think if it were brought up again, even next week on the final stage, it would delay the Bill any longer.

The PRESIDENT

I would undertake to bring it up next week and to put down a motion to take the two stages next week.

Mr. HUGHES

I think there is a good deal of dissatisfaction in some councils against the provisions of the Bill, and by putting in that provision it will give them representation in an advisory capacity, and will allay many of the fears that they entertain about it. For that reason I would be very sorry to see these recommendations taken out.

Mr. HEWAT

On the other hand, I do not think one can under-estimate the objection that Deputy Johnson brings forward in a formal way. It is very plain in an Act that if you put in a body that may be changed, one can hardly get over that difficulty in a general way, because you are putting in something that has not legal standing.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Is the President asking leave to withdraw this amendment?

The PRESIDENT

Yes, sir.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Order for the Report Stage discharged; ordered to be taken on Tuesday, 5th May.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 28 Apr 1925