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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 13 May 1925

Vol. 11 No. 13

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - MISCELLANEOUS EXPENSES (VOTE 21).

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £4,716 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1926, chun Costaisí Ilghnéitheacha áirithe, maraon le Deontaisí áirithe i gCabhair.

That a sum not exceeding £4,716 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1926, for certain Miscellaneous Expenses, including certain grants-in-aid.

Sub-head A provides for the office of Registrar of Friendly Societies. The duty of the Registrar is to prepare and circulate for the use of societies certain forms of accounts and so forth, and he also generally supervises the work of the friendly societies and sees that the accounts are properly audited and that the annual returns of receipts and expenditure of the funds and effects of these friendly societies are furnished.

There is also provision made for the office rent, salaries to assistants, and there are other remunerations to the Registrar under the head "Fees for Savings Banks Awards," under the Savings Banks Act, 1876. In connection with cases in dispute between depositors in Savings Banks and the trustees or managers of these banks, or in the case of the Post Office Savings Bank and the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, the Registrar of Friendly Societies acts as arbitrator. The office of Assistant Registrar has become vacant, and will not be filled. The grant to the Incorporated Law Society is portion of the deficit which was incurred by the Society during the preceding current year in carrying out its disciplinary functions under the Act. This Society is really a body of the solicitors' profession, and carries out important functions. Solicitors may become members of it, but there is no obligation on a solicitor to become a member, or to pay a subscription, and consequently the Society is in the position of having statutory functions and having voluntary membership. The principle has been in the past to examine into the amount of the deficit incurred during the carrying out of the statutory functions, and to pay roughly two-thirds of that amount, sometimes a little more and sometimes a little less. The amount provided this year is hardly quite two-thirds. Last year it was a little more, but roughly £325 will represent the amount of loss incurred by the Incorporated Law Society.

Item C is a new item. This is a grant to the National Theatre Society, which runs the Abbey Theatre. I think the members of the House will agree that this particular Society has done work of really great public importance during the years of its existence. We hear talk often of propaganda abroad, and the attraction of tourists here, but I do not think there is any agency in the country which has done so much to make the name of this country favourably known abroad as that particular Society. I think it would be a misfortune if the only institution in the country which provides an incentive to literary and dramatic work should be closed down. During the past twelve years for which accounts have been examined in my Department the Theatre has made a small profit only in three years. In the other years there were losses, and in some of the disturbed years considerable losses, and the amount of the losses for the period of the twelve years was £5,337, giving an average loss of about £450 a year for the period. The result is that the Theatre is now without capital, and has had to mortgage its building. The seating capacity of the Theatre is small, being able to accommodate only 548 people, and the receipts resulting from a full house would be about £60. The average weekly earnings of the actors and actresses in the Theatre are small, and no director or shareholder draws any dividend whatever from the Theatre. Previously it was possible for the people concerned with the Theatre to get assistance and subscriptions even from England, and from Irish people in England, but with the setting up of the State that source of revenue or assistance disappeared and cannot be drawn upon any longer.

Since its inception the Abbey Theatre has been responsible for the original production of more than 170 plays. I think the intention is that the National Theatre Society should continue to do its work, and that a grant in aid should be given, as grants in aid are given to various other institutions. The present directors of the Theatre would be only too anxious that a director or two should be nominated by the Government, and probably we may nominate directors. However, we certainly are not desirous to take responsibility for the working of such an institution, for it is the sort of thing that a Government would find it very hard to do, and it involves considerations, and the exclusion of considerations, which would be very difficult under Government control. I believe that we will get extremely good value for the public and for the country by this particular grant. It is one of the institutions that lends some distinction to Dublin as the capital of the State. I do not think that because this is a comparatively poor country, and a democratic country, where you usually do not have rich people readily undertaking works that such people might undertake in other countries, that we should be content to allow institutions that have been in existence to die out. I think we must have this sort of institution, and the sort of activities it stands for, in this country if we are to keep the affection of the citizens of the country for the country in the way we would like it to be kept. I do not put this forward as a strictly utilitarian expenditure, yet I think if we take the long view of expenditure of this nature it is in the best sense utilitarian, and gives very good results for the country.

Can the Minister give us a little information as to the declared objects and limitations in the activities of the National Theatre, Limited? Has he that information in front of him?

I have nothing in front of me about it. I think they are pretty well known. It produces plays by Irish authors, or plays dealing with Irish subjects, and the Theatre is limited in the choice of plays it produces by its patent or charter. That is a matter that could be examined further. I only examined the financial aspect. I had a good general idea of the sort of work it has been doing, and I did not officially go into that particular matter at all.

There are other grants for scientific investigation, etc., and included is a grant to the Royal Zoological Society of Ireland. For a very great number of years this Society has had a Government grant of £500, but during the past 11 years, or thereabouts, it has passed through exceptionally difficult times. Charges in respect of feeding the animals, and salaries and wages, have increased enormously. The Society has had to rely, to a greater extent than usual, on the support of the people in Dublin and neighbourhood, owing to the absence of the usual excursions.

It was also found difficult to maintain membership of the society on which reliance was placed very largely for funds in the past. The work that this society does is educational work of a very high value, and certainly worth £750 to the State. If the State were to undertake directly the maintenance of an institution of this sort I have no doubt the cost would be ten times what it is.

The other grants to the Royal Irish Academy and the Royal Hibernian Academy of Arts are unchanged. A grant of one thousand pounds was voted last year to the Irish Text Society in connection with the publication of a new edition of the Society's Irish-English dictionary. The dictionary has been unprocurable, except second-hand, since the plates were burned during the 1916 rising. The second moiety of the grant was to be payable on the publication of the dictionary, but as publication was delayed the second moiety was not paid during the last financial year, and a re-vote is being asked for.

With regard to research grants to students, these are grants to individual research workers for carrying out researches in pure science or, in suitable cases, in applied science. The awards are made on the recommendation of the Minister for Education, who considers the merits of the various applications. There are nine students at present in receipt of grants.

Are these students working in schools or in universities?

I think they are in universities. I would conclude that this is a university type of work. It is post-graduate sort of work. The responsibility for recommending it lies with the Minister for Education. As to sub-head F—Acquisition of Land (Assessment of Compensation) Act, 1919, and Estate Duty Appeals under the Finance (1909-10) Act, 1910, the arbitrator is appointed by a committee of reference that has been mentioned in connection with the Shannon Bill, for instance, during the past week, consisting of the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, the President of the High Court and the President of the Surveyors' Institute. The salary of the arbitrator is inclusive of clerical assistance and general office expenses, other than stationery and printing. There is only one reference committee which acts under two different Acts. There is an allowance to the secretary of the committee. The person who acts as official arbitrator has to undertake not to engage or be a partner in any private practice or business.

There is a very great deal of work for the arbitrator under these two Acts. It is so heavy that this officer will not be able to do the work that will be necessary in connection with the Shannon Bill and a separate individual will, I think, have to be appointed. The work in connection with estate duty appeals is very heavy indeed, and the arbitrator is fully occupied. I think that another officer will have to be appointed under the Shannon Bill to do the work.

In respect to friendly societies, I would like to know from the Minister whether their position is the same as it was last year in respect to registration. I understood then that there was a suggestion of making changes in the general position of the office of registrar. There seems to be some doubt as to whether the registrar has powers to do all that he and others think necessary, if the work is to be done properly. I think the Minister a year ago agreed with that view, and, if I remember rightly, had some ideas as to changes in the office of the registrar. I would like to ask the Minister if he can tell us whether the reports of the registrar in respect of trade unions have been issued since the establishment of the Saorstát. I think they are required to be issued annually and laid upon the Table of the House. I do not remember that they have been presented, but they may have without my knowledge.

In respect to the grant-in-aid to the National Theatre Society, I take it that it is a grant to recoup for losses sustained and that may be sustained, due to the fact that the theatre itself can never become a profit-making institution. As the Minister said, the chances of profit-making are very limited indeed, because it would mean that every production of a play would have to be attended to the fullest capacity. It is therefore expected that the theatre will always be a losing venture. The Minister pointed out that the average earnings of the players are small.

Too small.

There is no doubt of that. That is one of the defects. They are so small that whenever a player has shown himself or herself to be particularly brilliant and capable there is nothing to induce that player to remain on, because in the majority of cases it means that the player who desires to become really proficient has to devote his or her whole time to the work. I am glad to say that there are some most competent players who can manage to make a living otherwise than by playing, and can therefore remain at the Abbey Theatre. That is a very great credit, indeed, to the players them selves. In the main, however, the player who wants to do his or her best has to devote his or her whole time to the art. It is a pity that it is not possible to pay them a sufficient sum to induce them to remain on at the Abbey Theatre. We find, unfortunately, that they are nearly always induced to go to other countries, where the pay is higher. In the main, they would prefer to remain and continue their work at the Abbey Theatre, if they were able. I do not know whether it is contemplated that this grant will enable some higher salary to be paid to the players, but I hope it is.

I hope it will be found possible to retain the best of the players as they show their proficiency.

I am sorry I am not able to give at the moment any information in reference to friendly societies. I think it was some other Minister who moved the Vote last year. If there is a statutory requirement that the reports should be laid on the Table of the House, I feel pretty sure that they have been laid. I will look into the matter. The only solid fact that I know about friendly societies is that the assistant registrar became a candidate at the recent election, and vacated his office, and we do not intend to fill it again.

The papers may have been presented. I cannot speak definitely, but I am informed that they have not been published. That is to say, they have not been available for the public, as certain members of the public have been looking for them and were unable to get them.

I will undertake to look into that matter at once. The Deputy mentioned the salaries paid at the Abbey Theatre. Our hope was that a good proportion of the sum we are now offering would be available for increasing the salaries so that the best of the players might be offered some little additional inducement to remain.

With regard to the £500 for the Irish Texts Society, is the Minister in a position to say when the dictionary will be published, as a great many people are anxiously looking out for it?

I think it is in an advanced stage, but the editor is rather old now and finds it difficult to get on very rapidly with the work. I do not know whether anything could be done to assist in that matter, but I will undertake to look into it.

Mr. O'CONNELL

With regard to research grants to students, are each of the grants of the same amount? The Minister mentioned that there were nine students. Does that mean £80 per year per student? Is there a regular scale or does the Minister take into consideration the position of these students?

The grants are made simply as recommended by the Minister for Education. That would be the usual procedure. The grants are made to those most suitable. It is a maxim I think that you will not get a return for large sums in matters of research. From very small sums research gives as good a result as big sums, as the number of people at any time who can and will do research is limited. The best of them will engage in research work if they are simply enabled to do it.

Does the Minister say that there are nine students at present?

That does not mean that there are nine students receiving grants at various times during the year but receiving them throughout the year.

Nine students are at present in receipt of grants.

Vote put and agreed to.
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