Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 28 May 1925

Vol. 11 No. 22

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 6.—REVENUE DEPARTMENT.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £468,310 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun ioctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta 1926, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí na Roinne Ioncuim.

6.—That a sum not exceeding £468,310 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1926, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Revenue Department.

As Deputies are aware, the primary functions of this Department are the assessment and collection of various duties: customs and excise duties, estate duties, stamps, excess profits duty, which is a disappearing item; corporation profits duty, income tax and super tax. In addition to these primary duties, the services of the Department are utilised for many other matters. The stamping branch, for instance, is responsible for the manufacture of postage stamps, national health and unemployment insurance stamps, entertainment and other revenue stamps, and various impressed stamps. It prints the old-age pensions orders, stamps prepaid postal stationery, prints savings certificates, etc. The customs and excise branch has also many duties in addition to the collection of revenue and the suppression of smuggling. It does the bulk of the work in connection with old-age pensions, and the cost of that particular work amounts to about £91,000 per annum. On the customs side the services of the staff are utilised for a great many matters not affecting revenue. They prevent, for instance, the importation of reprints of copyright works, the importation of obscene literature, goods contravening the Merchandise Marks Act, anthrax-infected goods, dangerous drugs, illegal medical drugs, fictitious stamps and coins and dyes for their manufacture; fish illegally caught, lottery advertisements, unsound meat, matches containing white phosphorus. It also has duties in connection with the enforcement of health and quarantine regulations, with the importation of explosives, alien emigration at certain ports, wreck inquiries, and the custody and disposal of wreck; the collectors are generally receivers of wreck, and other officers are deputy receivers; registration of ships and fishing-boats, engagement and discharge of seamen, as agents for the Department of Industry and Commerce; collection of light dues, harbour dues, quit rents, publicans' licence duties, etc.

The increase in this Vote comes mostly under subhead (a) and subhead (e), which are of a like nature. As to the £55,740 coming under sub-head (a), the following are the factors:—First, normal annual increments of salary. These amount to £16,576. That may seem a very large sum for salary increments, but it must be remembered that this is practically a new service. There was very little customs work done here before the establishment of the Saorstát. Some of the estate duty work and the super-tax work was not done in this country. New and additional establishments had to be provided to deal with this work. That means that men who were experienced had to be promoted to controlling grades, and to take charge of new recruits. The result is that very few men are actually at their maximum. The £16,576 due to increments in salaries is divided over 1,756 people. The average increment, therefore, amounts to about £9. There is a bonus increase, due partly to new staff and partly to increase in the rate, of £4,654. There was additional staff employed mainly as a result of last year's Finance Act, amounting to £15,300. There was additional overtime, due largely to the same cause—£12,450.

The new duties last year did result in a very considerable addition to the work of the revenue department. We reduced the duty on tea, but we did not abolish it, and no reduction of work was occasioned by that change. We imposed new duties on boots, soap, candles, motor bodies and glass bottles. These were ad valorem duties which involved a great deal more labour than specific duties. It is easy to weigh out so many hundredweights or tons of sugar, and pass them through. Chemical tests may have to be made out, but the amount of work involved is comparatively small.

Importations are likely to be very often in large quantities. But when you deal with ad valorem goods, documents have to be examined, the value has to be established, and the amount of labour involved is very considerable indeed. As a matter of fact, it was estimated that, in Customs officers alone, apart from preventive men and clerical labour, the changes in last year's Budget would necessitate the employment of forty additional Customs officers. We got those forty additional Customs officers by taking men away from certain other duties.

The collection of arrears under Schedules D and E was formerly done by Customs and Excise officers. That work was put on the Collectors of Income Tax, who had previously only concerned themselves with Schedules A and B. It was possible by employing additional collectors and by giving existing collectors additional pay for extra work, to free some forty Customs and Excise officers for work at the Ports. But even with those additional forty, the staff was very short. Since our own Customs Service was set up, there has been hardly a Customs officer who has got anything like his full leave. Some of them have scarcely got leave at all. Various types of work, partly in the nature of preparation of complete statistics, but of such a character that an officer with technical knowledge is required to deal with it, has actually fallen into arrear. We have all the time been very short of Customs officers. We had sixty officers on loan from the British Service. Most of them have gone back. By 1st October, they will have all gone back. We have recruited certain numbers by examination. We had one examination in August, 1923, when we recruited fifty men. We had an examination in January, 1924, from which we recruited fifty men, and an examination in October, 1924, from which we recruited forty men. We would have taken a great many more but only forty men, or thereabouts, qualified. The examination was rather disappointing in the quality of the candidates who came forward.

With the imposition of the new Customs duties and in view of the shortage that already existed, it was necessary to secure additional officers to those provided for in the Estimates. We have had a Selection Board sitting and have taken from various Departments, clerical officers of a good type, with some years' experience of official work. About fifty of those are being promoted to be Customs officers and it is believed that in the course of six months or a year they will be able to give fairly satisfactory service and will enable us to deal more expeditiously and satisfactorily with the public. They will also enable us to give members of the staff their leave and prevent the state of discontent and the possibility of breakdown that must be present when men are, for too long a period, overworked and denied their leave.

Sub-head (B) covers travelling and subsistence allowances. There is a slight reduction under that sub-head, due to various economies and to closer scrutiny and greater care. Travelling and subsistence allowances are payable to officers whose duty involves the covering of large areas. The average annual mileage travelled on duty by an Excise officer is about 6,000. A good deal of that is over roads that are not served by any system of public conveyances. That involves the use or hireage of motors. There is a very wide distribution of the Revenue staffs. They are in all parts of the country and they are dealing with money and carrying out responsible duties. To get efficiency and uniformity of action, adequate provision has to be made for inspection. That involves considerable travelling and subsistence allowances.

Sub-head C deals with removal expenses. Where officers are removed from one part of the country to another which course is necessary where you have Departments with large provincial establishments, they are paid the reasonable vouched costs of removing themselves and their families and effects to whatever new station they may be assigned.

The next item (D) is due to a slight change in the commission paid the distributor of stamps, who is the Secretary of the Dublin Stock Exchange.

Sub-head E deals with allowances to assessors and collectors of income tax. The increase arises out of last year's Budget, and from the necessity of employing more tax collectors, in lieu of the Customs and Excise officers who were freed from their income tax collection. That involved the addition of a sum of £8,750. The other part of the increase is attributable to the fact that, in last year's Finance Act, provision was made for remuneration of the banks for keeping records of British dividents paid, and for deduction and remission of tax on foreign dividends. That amounts to £12,000. As Deputies are aware, if taxpayers or receivers of dividends are willing that particulars of the dividend paid should be furnished by the banks to the Revenue authorities—dividends that have suffered British tax—then, the banks are not bound to deduct our income tax. The result is that people have not tax deducted at the source but are assessed in the ordinary way. At all events, they do not suffer the double deduction of tax. That involves a very considerable amount of work on the banks. As a matter of fact, the banks have supplied nearly 150,000 separate statements, and it is really more troublesome to supply statements than simply to deduct the tax.

Sub-head F deals with carriage on parcels and so forth. That is an item that requires very little explanation in the case of a Department like the Revenue Department, which has offices all over the country.

Sub-head G deals with machinery and repairs in the Stamping Branch. I have already dealt, to some extent, with the working of the Stamping Branch. It has only been set up since we took over the duties, and the expense of the first years in connection with the acquisition of plant, dies, and other types of machinery were greater than they will normally be. There will probably be a further decrease. The next sub-head deals with uniform clothing. We have a considerable number of officers in uniform belonging to the preventive and watcher grades, and the messenger staffs also wear uniform. The number is, I think, 345.

Are the uniforms got through the Post Office?

Yes. They are got in the way that the Gárda Síochána and other uniforms are got. There is a slight reduction in that. The next is a minor item—the getting of copies of the Poor-Law Valuations from local authorities for the purpose of Schedules A and B assessments. The quinquennial writing up of books took place last year, and the amount was larger than normally. These particulars are got from the local authorities, to avoid flooding out the Valuation Office at a particular period of the year. It is found more satisfactory.

I do not think there is anything that requires any lengthy explanation under Sub-head K. There was considerable expense involved for overhaul of a launch, and it is not expected that it will require anything this year. Bicycles, for land patrol, are really paid for out of Sub-head K. There are some fifty bicycles supplied to various officers engaged in preventing smuggling along the frontier, and there is an allowance of one shilling per week for maintenance of the bicycle.

Sub-head L provided for technical equipment of various branches of the Revenue service—hydrometers, gauging apparatus, cyclometers, and delicate instruments dealing with weighing apparatus. It also provides for the cost of the paper for the adhesive stamps in connection with the entertainment tax. I do not think there is any explanation of the variation needed. It is casual.

Sub-head M provided for legal expenses other than the salaries of the solicitor and staff. They include such items as counsel's fees and costs in actions that may be decided against the Department. Deputies are probably aware that the administration of the Income Tax Laws involves a great amount of litigation. The Department is continually in the Courts. Apart from that, there is the question of rewards for officers and others who succeed in detection of offences against the Revenue. Where the amount exceeds £50, special sanction of the Minister for Finance is required. This is a Department in which, if there were more of that very useful class of citizen —useful, in the new circumstances— the common informer, it would be a great advantage. The highest award paid during the year amounted to £300, in a case in which there were many thousands of pounds of revenue involved and recovered.

Sub-head N deals with minor items, such as the laundering of towels and dusters and commission in respect of bank drafts, which officers get for the purpose of sending duty to the Commissioners. It also includes things like newspapers and periodicals.

In regard to Sub-head O, offices are in many cases situate in rural districts. It is very often impossible for the Board of Works in these districts to find suitable accommodation for the purpose. If the officer has a private house and it is found desirable to use a room in that private house as the office of the Department, an allowance is made to him for it. This is a very economical solution of the problem of accommodation in many cases.

Under Sub-head P there is a large increase. That is due to one item of default which occurred just about the time the Estimates were being made up. It was default on the part of a collector of income tax. His bond amounted to £2,500, but the defalcations, the amount of which has not yet been fully established, substantially exceeded that, and will have to be borne this year. The man has, so far, succeeded in evading arrest. I do not know whether the Appropriations-in-Aid show any very great difference from last year. The amount for the special attendance of Customs officers is considerably larger, but the other items are as they were last year.

So far as it can be estimated, the cost of the new duties imposed in the 1924 Budget come to about £25,000. There are other increases in the costs of the Department due to circumstances arising from the fact that staffs were already short. There will probably be a like increase as a result of the Budget changes this year, the new taxes imposed, and the fact that they are taxes which are much more difficult and more expensive to collect than taxes such as the tax of 4d. or 5d. a pound on tea. There is no saving in staff by reason of the reduction in sugar duty. There is no more expense in collecting 1d. a pound on sugar as against 2¾d.

This is a very big and complicated account, and I do not think that I am in a position to criticise all the items in detail. This involves a tremendous lot of salaries in Departments doing different work in connection with Customs and Excise, and in connection, generally, with the Revenue Department. As regards the salaries here, the amount shows a net increase of £61,960. I think the Minister's explanation indicates that that increase is only the beginning of a series of increases, and I think that is right. I think the importance of a Vote of this kind lies in the large total. We must recognise that as far as this account is concerned, it is only in its infancy. I do not wish to deal with this matter as being a question of free trade versus protection. I wish to draw attention to the swelling nature of the account. First of all, it is a naturally swelling Department, because you have a large number of persons employed and, without any addition to the staff, those persons would themselves be entitled to increased remuneration and that will automatically swell the account as we go along. In addition to that, you have had a large number of extra people taken on in this Department during the last year.

I think the Minister must recognise, as far as the Customs are concerned, there is real need to facilitate the public more than they have been facilitated up to the present. It is not unnatural that at the inception of a new tax arrangements take some time to be completed and the public, in the meantime, must suffer considerable inconvenience. I suppose that is unavoidable; but I think the Minister will be the last to deny, in connection with the taxes that have been put on, that an enormous amount of difficulty has been experienced by the general public, partly, no doubt, through their own fault in not making themselves conversant with the rules and regulations that apply, but also by reason of the more or less chaotic state of the different offices that are dealing with matters affecting the Customs. Go inland, and come to Excise matters, then take the arrangements in connection with the ports of the country as a whole, and the progress of obtaining revenue and the policy of placing a duty on goods becomes apparent. Of course there is always an effort—a rather human effort—to avoid paying these taxes if it can be done. I think there is a necessity for examining thinly populated districts, very wide areas, where smuggling would be comparatively easy, and where the detection of smuggling and protection against smuggling will be harder. In that direction I think the growth of this Department may be very severe.

While we recognise this is a large amount to spend in connection with the Revenue Department—£802,530—I am really afraid that that amount is likely to increase largely. Perhaps the Minister could give us some general opinion as to what the growth in the personnel of this Department is likely to be. Possibly he may be able to say that the present staff and the existing regulations will deal with anything that is likely to arise out of the imposition of taxes. That would be a very reassuring statement. It would not be unfair to ask him to give us some indication of what the different departments are likely to require in the way of additional staffs and to indicate the expense that would be necessary to gain the efficiency needed if the taxes that have been imposed are going to be safeguarded.

I think I did mention that and I do not believe I could say more on the question at the moment. I think the changes made by this year's Budget will involve a cost of something around an additional £25,000 on the Customs side.

I wonder does the Minister really think that the additional £25,000 will place everything on a satisfactory basis? If he does, that would be quite a reassuring statement. If, in the coming year, it is going to cost only an additional £25,000, I would be quite satisfied. I would be satisfied if it is limited to that amount. I rather anticipate, however, that as our experience grows we will find that the various protective measures that will have to be taken will swell the account to a very much higher figure. I would be very much reassured if I thought the amount would be limited to £25,000. It is very hard to analyse the figure of £600,850 for salaries. I suppose that includes bonuses. It covers such a wilderness of salaries of varying amounts that it would be very difficult to criticise them in detail. From a superficial examination there does not seem to be anything that would need particular criticism. I have taken the whole sum as a basis for the argument that I have put forward in regard to the future.

Grave complaints have been made in connection with Customs delays at the quays. Complaints are not confined to delays alone, but to the injury that goods suffer through the delay. I had a case brought to my attention this morning in which one of our large houses imported a quantity of perishable apparel. This apparel was lying for some days, if not longer, on the quays. There was some difficulty in finding the consignment. Considerable delay arose in that way and, after the consignment had been found, there was further difficulty in getting the amount of the duty assessed. After these primary difficulties had been got over and the form received by the consignee showing the amount of the duty, then the consignee's servant had to go with that form from the quays to an office in Beresford Place. There was quite a queue outside this office in Beresford Place and added to all the other delays was nearly a half day's delay on the part of the official at Beresford Place in connection with the paying of the duties.

That is a case that was only brought to my notice this morning. It is one I am sure of hundreds, if not of thousands. That is a matter that ought to have immediate attention. Take the case of wearing apparel. It is a very perishable commodity. It suffers very seriously if left for any time in a damp store and it is obvious that all these stores along the North Wall are not at all what one might look upon as of an ideal character. The delay from that point of view alone is very serious, but furthermore, these commodities are required for what is known as a season trade. At different periods of the year different commodities are in request and if there is any holding up of these commodities in the Customs a large amount of trade is lost and traders suffer considerably. These are matters that ought to have the attention of the Ministry. We have pointed out the injury that those new tariffs were going to do to the trade, and I am sorry the Minister has not been able to take steps to remove some of that injury. But here is a matter that he can deal with. It is a matter that his Department ought to deal with. Yet these series of complaints have been going on for weeks and weeks, and, as far as one can gather, no very serious effort is being made to cope with them. I would be glad to know from the Minister what is being done. Let him take the case I mentioned as being typical, as Deputy Hewat pointed out, of thousands. Let him say now definitely what steps he is taking to deal with that particular difficulty.

I want to make a few comments on this Estimate. I think Deputy Hewat has said something about how disagreeable it is to business men to get on down at the Clearing House. This is attributable more or less to the duties on small articles. At least the principal portion of the difficulty could be attributed to them. Of course in the case of a large article that costs a big sum of money one does not scruple very much perhaps about the cost of collection, but in the case of an article costing 2s. 6d. it is a different matter. The position is this, especially with regard to motor parts: while the firms dealing in repairs have to keep staffs on their premises to deal with this question of clearance, or they have to employ a clearance agency, and many of them do employ clearance agencies, after a week or a fortnight a bill is sent up from the Clearing House and you see an item that costs 1s. 6d for which 5s. is charged for clearing. That is an impossible position. A great difficulty has been caused by including these small parts under the head of revenue. It is not fair. I have seen the weekly balance sheets, or the monthly balance sheets, of a few garages in Dublin. I have seen items which cost 2s. 6d. or 1s. 6d. and the collection of which cost 5s. That is something the Minister ought to consider.

Supplementing what I have said to Deputy Hewat, I think it is true that extensions of protective tariffs will always lead to additional costs in maintaining the Customs service, but I anticipate that some sum such as I mentioned, about £25,000, should bring our staffs up to what we require. It has to be borne in mind that most of them are young men and inexperienced in the work. As I said already, none of them is at the top of his scale, while most of them are at the bottom of their scales, and the increments for some years to come will amount to a substantial addition every year. For instance, here are people that we have got in as a result of examinations for the Customs and Excise. As a result of an examination in August, 1923, we got 51 men, all ex-Army men. As a result of an examination for Writing Assistants, in November, 1923, we got 20. That was a general examination. As a result of a Customs and Excise examination in March, 1924, we got 49, 15 of whom were ex-Army men. Then there are Clerical Officers. Probably some of these are used for income tax work as well as for Customs work, so I will leave them out. For Customs and Excise, again, in October, 1924, we got 40 men. Amongst the officers, we have at present something like 279 trained and experienced men, but many of them would not be at the top of their scales. Being experienced, they are men who would have been promoted to grades exercising control. Then we have the entrants from the two examinations for officers in 1923, 137 of whom we might call new men and raw officials. There are certain pensioned officers whom we brought back, and who are doing service—some 20 or so of them. In addition to these we have promoted from the clerical grade in various offices in the service to the rank of Customs officers some 50 men since we came to the decision to enforce certain new duties this year. You have, therefore, something like 180 or more who are absolutely new. That has some bearing on the remarks that Deputy Good made with reference to delay.

There was very little Customs work done here before the setting up of our own Customs. Customs duties were paid when goods were landed in Great Britain, and they were shipped and landed here free of duty. The Customs service has practically been created from the foundation in three years. There has always been a shortage of experienced officers. There is a shortage of fully experienced officers still, and there is no doubt if we had more officers—more experienced officers— certain complaints that there is ground for would be removed. The bulk of the delay is in connection with the clearance of goods through the Customs, and is by no means attributable to the Customs officers. All sorts of people are involved. For instance, the railway and shipping companies are involved. They have not taken all the steps that they might have taken to provide accomodation in the way of transit sheds. If you have shortage of accommodation in your transit sheds congestion must take place. Goods are piled on top of one another, and the actual finding of the goods and the getting of them out becomes more difficult. There is, in certain cases, insufficient transit shed accomodation. That causes delay. Other causes of delay are due to importers themselves, who fail to furnish the documents required by the Customs. They expect to get their goods through quickly without taking the precautions that are necessary to get them through. But the blame for everything is put on the Customs. The blame that is due to the importers, to the shipping companies, and to the railway companies, and to everybody else, is all put down to the Customs.

There is one case that I cited that the Minister could deal with. Duty is assessed at the North Wall. The servants of the consignees have to walk from the North Wall to Beresford Place where they have to stand in a queue outside a temporary office. That is a matter that could be obviated. Why should they have to go half a mile and wait at a small office while the few officials there have to deal with a volume of business? That is a matter that ought to be attended to.

That is a matter that I certainly can look into. But, as I say, in all these things arrangements that seem quite simple are in some cases quite impossible, because of the shortage of an experienced and responsible staff. I do not say that this particular case is one of them, but in certain cases arrangements that would be quite simple this time next year, are not quite so simple just now.

As I have told Deputies, we have taken 50 men into the Customs who had certain experience and a good record for work as clerks in Government offices, but whose value in assisting in Customs work, so far, is not very considerable. I do not think that the clerical delays and difficulties that Deputy Gorey referred to are mainly due to the Customs. However, as I promised Deputy Cooper at another stage, I am setting up a committee on which we will have certain non-official people —motor users or people in the motor business—who will go into the matter and see what changes can be made to facilitate clearance of these parts to which Deputy Gorey referred.

Before this Vote is put there is another question that I would like to ask. I am not sure that it comes under this particular Department, but it certainly comes within the jurisdiction of the Finance Department. It is the question of the licence duty that boats carrying passengers are called upon to pay. If it does not come within the purview of this Department I would like if the Minister would kindly tell me which Vote it comes under.

Would it come under Vote 549—"Marine Service?"

These are motorboats.

If there is a doubt about it, it would be better to deal with it on this occasion, because I may not get an opportunity on a future occasion.

It is a matter of which I know nothing personally. I understand he is referring to the Excise licence payable in the case of passenger boats on which drink is sold.

It is the licence for the purpose of carrying passengers. There is no question of drink.

Would it not come under "Appropriations-in-Aid" in Vote 54—"Fees for Surveys and Inspections of Ships"?

It appears that it is an Industry and Commerce matter. I have never heard of it, so that I can only listen to the Deputy.

If I am ruled out on this Vote, will you kindly inform me on what particular Vote it can be raised?

As far as I can gather, it is not a matter with which the Revenue Department deals. So I presume that it is not in order on this Vote. What Vote it will be in order under is another matter.

If you rule that it comes on Vote 51 I will be very glad to raise it there. That Vote contains an item "Transport and Marine."

On a point of procedure, if it is a matter of the collection of revenue, I submit that it comes under this Department. If it is a matter dealing with the rate of a tax of any kind it will not come under this Estimate at all; it is a matter of law and not of administration.

It is the licence duty paid by the owner of a motor boat to permit him to carry passengers in the boat.

Who collects it?

I imagine it would come under the Board of Trade. I am not quite sure.

I think that this matter would be dealt with by the Department of Industry and Commerce.

That would be Vote 51.

I want to ask a question on sub-head (e) with regard to assessors and collectors of income tax. I would like to know on what system these collectors are appointed, what general qualifications are required for these appointments, and what the rates of payment are. I understand that they are not ordinary civil servants.

These particular officials, unfortunately, come to be appointed by the Minister for Finance, and it is a duty with which he would be very glad to have nothing to do. They are not civil servants in the sense that they are not pensionable. I think they are technically re-appointed from year to year, but in practice they continue to discharge the functions as long as they are satisfactory. Recently I have endeavoured to leave the matter as much as possible to the Revenue Commissioners and not to intervene at all. Since the demobilisation of the Army began the appointees have been almost entirely ex-officers. In other cases where a small district becomes vacant it is joined on to a larger district adjoining and the officer of the larger district is given the two districts. Our policy, so far as we have been able to carry out a consistent policy in the matter, has been to endeavour to enlarge the districts, to give the collectors sufficient work to enable a salary to be paid which would make them almost whole-time collectors. We believe that in that way we will get more reliable and better men. The salaries, I think, have some basis that relates to poundage, but they are actual salaries. They are generally quite small salaries except in cases like Dublin and Cork, districts with big collections, where the salaries might run up to £400 or £500. In a great many districts the salaries are only for part-time work and would be £100 or £120.

They are not paid salary and poundage as well?

No. Of course the person must make his collection; payments are not made until he makes his collection and does the work.

I want to call attention to the item regarding receipts from merchants for special attendance of officers. That is an increase from £2,000 to over £6,000, a rather considerable increase. It is more than treble. Is that based on the experience of last year, that increased fees have been paid for the special attendance of officers, or is it merely a forecast of the inconvenience caused to merchants by our new tariffs, that they will be prepared to pay this considerable increased sum in order to get the special attendance of officers? I think though this is an item on the credit and not on the debit side, that, having regard to all its reactions on the commercial community, we ought to have some information on the point.

It is due to both. It is due to the experience of last year, and there is also an anticipation of a certain increase, as we have new duties that will probably involve this attendance of officers.

Vote put, and agreed to.
Barr
Roinn