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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 11 Jun 1925

Vol. 12 No. 7

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 41—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR EDUCATION.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £117,568 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1926, chun costaisí na Roinne Oideachais, mar gheall ar chostaisí Riaracháin, Cigireachta, etc.

That a sum not exceeding £117,568 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1926, for the expenses of the Department of Education in respect of costs of Administration, Inspection, etc.

I think that it would be well on this Estimate to give an explanation as to the promised Bill, the School Attendance Bill, which has been often referred to in this House. I would like to say that I have received a memorandum from the Ministry of Education on the subject, and I will put it before the House.

When the Department of Education proceeded to prepare in 1923 a draft Bill dealing with the enforcement of attendance at elementary schools, it became clear to them that the most effective and the least cumbrous machinery for the enforcement of such an Act would be the Gárda Síochána. When, however, the question was taken up by the heads of the Gárda Síochána in autumn, 1923, it was found that the training and organisation had not reached the stage, and that the Department could not guarantee that they would at any near or future period reach the stage at which their services could be effectively utilised for the purpose of acting as the chief machinery of a School Attendance Act.

The disturbed condition of the country, the difficulty of calculating when the disturbance would die down, and the amount of arrears of police work were factors which contributed to this decision. The Minister for Justice tells me that the question of the distribution of the Gárda was also one of the factors at the time.

The Department of Education, therefore, has no choice but to base their proposed Bill on the Local Government machinery. Accordingly, the Bill as first drafted by the Department of Education provided for the establishment of local education committees to take charge of the local administration of matters in connection with elementary schools, including school attendance. These local education committees were intended to supersede the existing school attendance committees constituted under the Irish Education Act of 1892. This draft Bill was in preparation during the early months of 1924 and, on the 29th May, 1924, it was sent to the Attorney-General. Its provisions were, at the same time, brought under the notice of other Departments, and the alterations suggested by those Departments kept coming in during the summer and autumn of 1924. The Local Government Department on the 17th September, 1924, intimated to the Department of Finance that the Bill as proposed by no means met with their approval. They considered the time was inopportune for the introduction of an Attendance Bill based on the local committee principle, since the whole system of local government was in the melting-pot and no permanent local government machinery could be counted on until the forthcoming Local Government Bill became law.

They considered, furthermore, that even when local government conditions would be stabilised, the use of local committees for the purpose of enforcing the Act would be cumbrous and probably ineffective, and the expenditure of the local committees would cast an undue burden on the rates. It was the experience of the Local Government Department that such committees are dilatory in enforcing provisions of the law which are of a penal nature; and, where action lies to be taken, they generally pursue a policy of inaction or mitigation. The Local Government Department believed that provisions in regard to the compulsory attendance of school children would be more efficiently administered through the police, as agents of the State, without entailing additional expenditure on the State, and at a considerable saving of funds of local bodies. Therefore, they suggested the changes proposed by the Bill be postponed until the financial stress was less severe and until the new machinery of the Local Government Act had been set up and had begun to operate. As this would entail very considerable delay, the Department of Justice was again approached with the request that the possibility of the use of the Gárda Siochána for the purposes of the Bill might be reconsidered. As a result of that request, the Department of Justice reviewed the situation and, in view of the return of the country to peaceful conditions, they agreed that the enforcement of the school attendance provisions might be handed over to the Gárda Siochána.

A new Bill on this basis was accordingly drafted towards the end of 1924 and the new draft Bill was sent on the 15th January, 1925, to the Department of Justice. On the 3rd of February, 1925, a reply was received which intimated the concurrence of the Minister for Justice in the main principles. A copy was sent to the Department of Industry and Commerce and the Department of Local Government on the same date as it was sent to the Department of Justice. In a reply dated the 5th February, 1925, the Department of Industry and Commerce raised, in connection with memoranda from their factory inspection branch and employment branch, certain questions in regard to the employment of children and young persons affected by school attendance.

The examination of these questions, and the conferences which they entailed, caused a considerable amount of delay and it was decided, ultimately, to leave this question to be dealt with by further legislation, if necessary. A letter from the Department of Local Government, dated the 15th April, 1925, gave the observations of that Department in regard to certain clauses of the Bill, and a letter of the same date from the Department of Finance on certain financial aspects of the Bill entailed further conferences. Finally, on the 13th May, the draft Bill was sent to the Parliamentary draftsman.

I should observe here, with some regret, that it has now entered into limbo, and that is due to the fact that it would take a fortnight of the Parliamentary draftsman's time uninterrupted by any other work, to complete the Bill, and accordingly, it will have to remain over until the Autumn session. It will be introduced, possibly, on the first day of the Autumn session and it will be passed through without delay. I think that explains the position as far as the Minister for Education is concerned.

I would ask the President, for the sake of informing the public, what are the intentions of the Ministry regarding school attendance? Will he outline here the general intentions and the purposes of the Bill?

No, I am not in a position to do that.

Will the President promise to do it before we adjourn?

I do not think I could. I will look into the matter and see if it would serve any useful purpose if I did so. I am fairly well satisfied that the various journeys of this Bill will result in a satisfactory measure being laid before the Dáil early in the Autumn session. I think the Bill which will be introduced will give satisfaction.

The President does not know what the public may think. He says the Bill will give satisfaction. By what test does he arrive at that conclusion? We have not the slightest idea as to what the mind of the Ministry is and as to what is likely to give satisfaction. If we could have, from the President, before we adjourn, a general outline of the Bill, apart from the details, then the country would be able to inform itself in regard to the measure. People could discuss the matter in the interim and we would have much clearer minds when we come to deal with the Bill here.

I regret I have not seen the draft. I will undertake to examine it and see whether it is not possible to give the Dáil the information desired by Deputy Johnson before the adjournment. The Estimates touch on the three main educational branches.

Are we now dealing only with Vote 41?

That has been moved by the Minister for Finance. My statement would, I think, embrace more than that.

Mr. O'CONNELL

That is what I want to know. In any statement that he is going to make, does the President propose to deal with Vote 41 only, or with Votes 42, 43 and 44? I would like him to deal with Vote 41 by itself.

I do not think I could undertake to confine myself exactly to that. In dealing with Vote 41, I think it is due to the Ministry that they should be allowed an opportunity for review. The Vote for the Ministry is dependent upon what the policy is and what is being done in respect to the other Votes that are being taken. Anything said on this Vote would not limit a discussion or criticism, or any interrogatories, on the other Votes as they arise.

Mr. O'CONNELL

There is a possibility that it would. I do not see how we could enter into a discussion, a detailed discussion, on these very important Estimates in the absence of the responsible Minister. So far as I am concerned, I do not propose to do so. I can quite understand the President's position. He has not been able to give us any information except what he has read from a typed statement before him, with regard to the School Attendance Bill. He was not in a position to reply to Deputy Johnson's queries. He could not possibly be in a position to reply to questions or give any useful information in any discussions that might arise on this Estimate. I suggest that the position of the present Minister for Education should be discussed on Vote 41 before we go any further.

I feel bound to make a protest against this Vote being taken to-day. I do not believe that a single Deputy came here who had in his mind the possibility of this Vote being taken. Most of us expected that a different Vote would be taken instead. Some time ago we heard that this Vote would be adjourned; we got no notice that it would come on to-day, and we had no expectation of it. I completely agree with Deputy O'Connell; it is quite impossible to discuss those three important Votes in the absence of the Minister for Education. We have tried to do that before, very unsuccessfully. It seems to me to be a wrong procedure, that we should attempt to discuss this important matter in the Minister's absence. I suggest we should not attempt to do it at all. We should merely pass a formal Vote on account, if the President would give us an undertaking that we will have a full opportunity of discussing this matter at the very earliest possible moment, if not at the end of this session, at least at the beginning of the next. In our present position of unpreparedness, and without any warning, we should not attempt to discuss this Vote. If we did, it would come very near to making a farce of the whole thing.

Mr. O'CONNELL

My position is somewhat different to Deputy Thrift's. I do not complain so much of want of notice. This matter has been on the Order Paper; but at the same time, many Deputies did not think it would not come on until the Agricultural Vote would have been taken. Another arrangement has been come to now. If the Minister were here and in a position to answer various questions that will be brought up for discussion, it would be all right. As it is, we are prepared to discuss one of those very important Votes on the subject of education, even though the Minister is not present. Even though the Minister for Education is not in attendance, there is one matter that is ripe for discussion, and very ripe; it is one with which the President can deal and for which the President, as head of the Executive Council, is responsible. I refer to the position of the present Minister for Education. If the President is prepared to discuss that now, I suggest we should take it up on Vote 41 and confine ourselves to that aspect at the moment.

I cannot allow myself to be confined in the explanation or the statement that I would have to make in connection with this Estimate, nor can I admit that this is a matter which, properly speaking, comes within the limits defined by Deputy O'Connell. This is not a case in which it is reasonable to attack the Minister as such. As far as the Executive Council or myself would be concerned, I admit at once that it is perfectly legitimate; but that would have come more properly on the Vote for the Executive Council, where my salary is down. Now, on this Vote of the Ministry of Education, to pillory, as it were, the Minister, because he occupies another position, and is away from his office for a considerable time—he is occupying a position of very great importance—is a different matter, and I do not think I could admit that on this Vote a discussion, such as has been suggested, could satisfactorily take place, or that the matter can be considered in a way which will give satisfaction to the House or the Minister.

If the President is moving a Vote which includes the salary of the Minister, surely we can discuss his conduct of the office?

Certainly, you can discuss the conduct of the office.

Not only the conduct of the office but the policy, or lack of policy, of the Minister. I frankly confess that I agree with Deputy O'Connell partially, and with Deputy Thrift entirely, that we are not in a position to discuss this Vote in the absence of the Minister. The Education Office gives us less information and less material on which we can found criticism than any Government Department in the Saorstát. The other day a report was placed on the Table of the Dáil on education statistics. For what year? For the year 1924-25, which we might reasonably expect? No. But for the year 1922-23! This report is more than two years in arrear. It is actually in arrear of the Appropriation Accounts and of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General. And yet it comes in quietly, without apology, nearly three years late, dealing with matters that have been settled and concluded away back in the year 1922! It is preposterous that we should be asked to debate under these conditions. How can there be any sane or informed criticism at all when a Department is carried on in this manner, and treats the Dáil in this manner? There is no greater need in this country than a true appreciation of the value of education. We may not be an uneducated people, but we are an uninstructed people. If the President doubts that, let him look at the correspondence columns of the daily Press. He will see there every sort of hare pursued. How are we to awaken people to the value of education? Not, I venture to think, by bringing on this Estimate at a moment's notice, in the absence of the Minister, but by giving it a high and important place in our discussions, by arranging for the Minister to be here, and by arranging for the Estimate to have priority. Then, people will begin to learn that education is a matter of some importance. As it is, we are treating it with contempt.

There is another matter that arises in this connection—the rights of Members. I think this is an appropriate moment to draw the attention of the House to the fact that repeatedly very important matters are put down on the Order Paper, and, without notice to the Members of the House, the Order Paper is changed, or is notably departed from. I was wholly unaware, although I had made inquiries about it, that the Universities Estimate would be taken to-day and but for the courtesy of an official of the House, I would not have been present. I was engaged on other business. There was to be an appeal with regard to a film at 3.30 p.m. It was only by the purest accident that I was able to be present —physically present, but to no greater extent—when the University Vote was taken. I really think that this is a matter concerning the privileges of the House.

The Universities are in a very peculiar position. They constitute separate and distinct constituencies, and when the Vote concerning what are constituencies practically of the whole State is in question, those who officially represent those constituencies, ought to be aware of it. It is no retort to say that we must keep ourselves acquainted with the progress of business, because I can truthfully plead that I did attempt to keep myself so acquainted. I was left under the impression yesterday that these Education Votes might not even be reached next week. This important matter, full of all sorts of complex and difficult details, comes before us now, without notice. I think I am entitled to join with Deputy Thrift in making a mild protest. It is not in connection with University matters I do it. It is a question of the privileges of members of the House. We ought to know where we stand. We ought to be enabled to discharge our duties to our constituencies and to the nation at large as efficiently as the circumstances will permit us. We cannot be efficient representatives if we are simply living in a whirligig of change.

There were at least two opportunities before now of taking up this question of the absence of the Minister. There was, first of all, my own Vote. There was, secondly, the Vote for the expenses of the Boundary Commission. Those votes gave sufficient and ample opportunity of raising such a question. The first-mentioned would, in my view, have been a much more suitable occasion for the raising of those matters for which, to a large extent, the Minister for Education is not responsible. If the Executive Council, in its wisdom, nominates a person to the important position that the Minister occupies on the Boundary Commission, and if the Executive Council continues to leave the Ministry, over which he presides, unoccupied or to leave the Minister unreplaced, it is the responsibility of the Executive Council rather than of the Minister. As I explained on another occasion, I had been in consultation with the Minister in connection with his Department. I had been in communication with him, and I have been in touch with the responsible heads of his Department. I do not know whether Deputy Cooper expects me to answer on behalf of all the people in this country who are uneducated. If he does, I am afraid I am not equal to the task. I do not represent all the uneducated people of the country. To place such a burden on my shoulders would be unfair.

In connection with what Deputy Magennis says, as regards the Order Paper being departed from, these Estimates have certainly appeared on the Order Paper for some days. It was obvious to anybody that, if we were to get on with the business, we would eventually have to reach the Vote of the Ministry of Education. Three Ministries have not yet been dealt with. One is the Ministry of Agriculture. Deputies from one important section of the House asked me not to take that Vote. I agreed. I am willing and anxious at all times to meet any reasonable views put forward or any reasonable requests made. I cannot emblazon the fact in the papers that, in view of representations made by the Farmers' Party, it is not my intention to take any of the Votes under the Ministry of Agriculture. Having disposed of the Ministry of Lands and Agriculture in that way, I come to the two remaining Ministries. I was not aware that yesterday, the Minister for Industry and Commerce would be engaged in the Seanad. I believe he is finished in the Seanad to-day, but he is engaged on other work. That leaves only one other Estimate—the Estimate of the Ministry of Education. I am prepared to deal with that Estimate to the best of my ability. If there are complaints in respect of the Minister not being present to deal with it, that is a matter over which we have no immediate control. The circumstances of the times and the importance of the office the Minister is now discharging, prevent him from attending here. I could ask him to put before the Commission a request that he should be relieved of attendance or that the Commission should adjourn for a while, but I would probably be met, on another occasion, with criticism for having interfered with the Commission's working or interrupted its course of business. Last year, at the request of a Deputy, we agreed to leave over for a special occasion a Vote of one of the Ministries—the Ministry of Industry and Commerce. That matter did not materialise. If I agree to taking a vote of condemnation of the Government, or something of that sort, in November and do not mention the circumstances that occurred last year, of having given some undertaking with regard to the Ministry of Industry and Commerce, will I be charged with misleading the House or not having afforded the opportunity they wanted? The Deputy who asked for that opportunity last year has left the House. It is open to any member of any party, or to any group or combination of the various parties, to approach me on a matter so important as this and to say: "When we re-assemble in the autumn, will you afford Government time for discussion of the Vote in connection with this Ministry?" I am prepared to do that. But we have spent a very considerable time on the Estimates that have been dealt with and we arrive now at the point where we have got to deal with the remainder. We have reached a time when there is no other Estimate to be taken. I submit that it is reasonable to take this Estimate now, having regard to the fact that it has been on the agenda for a week and that I gave notice to some members, at any rate, that I proposed to take the Estimate myself.

May I say, with all respect to the President, that the point I have raised is not dealt with in his reply. Here we have, if we take to-day's Order Paper—"Estimate for Public Services; Vote No. 48—Department of Agriculture (Resumed)." Without notice to anyone, except those who happen to be in the House, this Vote is passed over. More than a fortnight ago, I asked the Committee on Procedure and Privileges that this facility should be afforded to members —that a notice board should be provided in the Lobby and that a change of that kind should be at once recorded there. That would meet the case. The next Vote on the Order Paper is Vote No. 27—Haulbowline Dockyard—and there follows Vote 28—Universities and Colleges. No sooner is that disposed of than we find ourselves at Vote 41, skipping the intervening ones. I think my case is made to anyone who looks at to-day's Order Paper.

True, we have had notice of these Estimates for several weeks, and I, for one, could have gone on with the debate on the Universities. But I do not think it would be a proper thing merely to stand up with impromptu criticism. I think that the time has really come for us to try to have some arrangement with regard to these things. I deliberately abstain from joining in the debate on the other matter that has been raised. I confine myself rigorously to this one thing—that a university representative should be aware that the Vote, appertaining to his constituency, which is apparently down for a later stage of the proceedings, is to be taken sooner, because of some unforeseen circumstances that have arisen. The ordinary courtesies of the House would require something of that kind to be done. This is really treating education, especially higher education, as if it were a matter of no consequence. The implication is that when there is no other Vote of importance to be taken, we will fill in the time with this Vote. That is the impression that it leaves.

That is not a fair impression. We were unable to take Vote 48. We took 27, and after that 28. Previously, I believe, we took 35. As I understand, the Minister for Agriculture has been asked to delay his Votes. The Minister for Industry and Commerce, as far as I am aware, is not in a position to take his Estimate until next week. There is but one remaining Ministry. There was no attempt to get through any estimates at any time. If there was any request made to have an estimate kept over, even though the request came from a private member, rather than from a party, I would have agreed to meet him as far as possible.

I want to make my position clear. I am not objecting to the President taking the estimates now because, as he said, they are on the Order Paper. But I do say that we should be at liberty when asked to vote the salary of the Minister, to discuss the position and the policy of the Minister, and to say whether we are prepared to pass this salary until we know what the position of the Minister will be during the time that this salary will be available. I would say further —I am prepared to move a motion in connection with the matter, if it is necessary to do so—that it would be farcical for the House to enter into discussion of Votes 42, 43 and 44 when the President, who is in charge of them, is not in a position to deal with the questions that will be put from all sides of the House. The responsible Minister should be here to deal with the Vote, and my suggestion would be, if the position is as the President says, that this Vote go through as a matter of course. For all the action I will take, it can go through as a matter of course. But a day should be set aside specially, in the autumn, perhaps, when the whole position with regard to education could be discussed.

I am prepared to agree to that, but at the same time, I do not think these estimates should be passed as a matter of course. They should be subjected to discussion.

Mr. O'CONNELL

There can be no useful discussion on these estimates in the absence of the Minister responsible for them.

It is at least fair to the Minister and to the Ministry that their policy, what they are doing, what they have been trying to do, and what they will have to do, should be put before the country. They should not be put in the position of being pilloried here and of having to wait for five months to explain their policy.

That is my suggestion, that we have the position of the Ministry with regard to education discussed on Vote 41. But to go into the details of the policy that is required, on Votes 42, 43 and 44, would be so much waste of time.

The President must not blame me if I make him responsible for the uneducated people in the State. He is, by virtue of his high position, responsible for all the people in the State, educated and uneducated, and I hope he will try to reduce the number of the latter and increase the number of the former; but he is not going the right way to do it. He told us that we had two opportunities of raising the question, on the Executive Council Vote and on the Vote for the Boundary Commission, but we had not at the time the faintest idea that the Minister would not be here to defend his Estimate.

The President promised us he would be here.

I had that promise from the Minister.

That explains why the questions were not raised on the other Votes.

I want to say, as far as the Minister is concerned, he is blameless in the matter. He hoped to have been here and, as far as I am aware, he certainly meant to have been here.

I am making no personal attack on the Minister. I am dealing with the President's point that we did not raise the question before. We did not raise the question before because we wanted to give the Minister the utmost indulgence. We did not want to interfere with his work unnecessarily and we were perfectly willing to have questions relating to education answered by other Ministers on his behalf. We did not realise that he could not have been released from the Boundary Commission for a single day. I think you could dispose of these Estimates in one day, certainly in two days. Would it be impossible for the Minister to ask for an adjournment of the Boundary Commission for that period? It was adjourned for very much longer periods without any question being raised.

Not at our request.

There are some people, as the President knows, who will question everything. I venture to say that the question will not be very serious or well-founded. The President's memory, that he postponed the Ministry of Commerce Vote last year at the request of a Deputy who is not now in the House, is not quite right. I am still in the House. I am very much unpleasantly in the House. I would much sooner be bathing in the sea. It was I who asked him to postpone it and I do not think it was a good precedent. We had a thoroughly bad discussion and at the end of it the Ceann Comhairle expressed the hope that the precedent was not one that would be followed.

I understood it was Deputy Milroy who asked that it should be delayed, or, if not delayed, that he should be afforded, in the Autumn, an opportunity of criticising the Ministry. It was only Deputy Milroy I had in my mind.

The confusion is, perhaps, natural.

I might say that before Deputy Milroy left the House he asked on what day we intended to have that particular discussion. I think he even put down a motion on the matter.

As a matter of fact, the day Deputy Milroy left the House he asked me whether some discussion could not be raised on Tuesday instead of on Friday, three hours before he resigned. I will share the laurels with Deputy Milroy, but I was the first to suggest it. Deputy Milroy, as in other cases, adopted some of my suggestions.

Coming away from that, we are now faced with the situation that we cannot discuss this Vote fully. We cannot raise the points we might wish to raise, and I think the only course open to us is to allow the President to make a statement as to the policy of the Department, not to attempt to discuss it, because he is not in a position to answer details—the burdens on his shoulders are very heavy indeed—to mark our protest against this policy by a division and then to allow the remaining Votes to go through, and to put down a vote of qualified censure when the Minister is available. That seems to me the only course the Dáil could take with any regard to its dignity, and to the proper conduct of public business. We have been criticised by Ministers on the ground that we did not discuss Estimates seriously, but how could we in these circumstances, when Estimates are suddenly thrown on us without the responsible Minister being here, indulge in anything more than superficial and almost useless criticism?

I was going to say something like what Deputy Cooper has just said. I want to say two or three other things. I think it must be admitted that everyone refrained from referring to the question of the Department of Education, because he hoped that the Minister for Education would be here at the time when he made his remarks. As a matter of principle, I do not think we could not too strongly support what Deputy O'Connell stated that no Vote of any Department of importance ought to be taken in the absence of the Minister for the Department. I recognise that the President finds himself in a dilemma, that he had no other vote that he could put before us, and, as usual, education has to take the role of Cinderella. But I would support what Deputy Cooper has said, that the only course we now can take with dignity, in view of the dilemma that has arisen, is that we should allow the President to make his statement. After we had listened to his statement, we can then either formally pass this Vote, on an undertaking from the President that he will give us a full opportunity at the commencement of the next session to discuss all these Votes and the important questions that arise on them, or adopt Deputy Johnson's suggestion. While I agree with Deputy O'Connell in the points he made as to the presence of the Minister, I wish to insist on a further point, and that is that of any Vote of importance, such as Education, full notice ought to be given to the Deputies. That the Vote should be taken without notice is, I think, a mistake. The President is driven to it, and I am prepared to admit his difficulties, but I think he ought to accept the course that has been suggested and save us the indignity of making an unworthy attempt to deal with a question of such importance.

The President is quite correct in stating that the position of the Minister for Education could be raised on the Vote for the Office of the President or on the Vote for the Boundary Commission. But as the position can be equally well raised on the present Vote, Deputies have no grievance. It is quite within the competence of the Deputies to raise the position and the policy of the Minister for Education on this Vote, No. 41.

The Estimates of the establishments of the three main educational branches of this Department, primary, secondary, and technical, are now being presented to you as a whole for the first time. The unification of the Estimates of the establishments has been made possible by the unification of educational administration which has been carried out under the Ministers and Secretaries Act, and by the co-ordination and amalgamation of staffs that has taken place as a result of it.

When the Department of Education took over control of the three chief branches of education, primary, secondary, and technical, it took them over as separate and unconnected entities. Neither in personnel, methods, programmes, nor machinery, had there been any real connection between these branches under the former régime. One of the first steps taken by the Department of Education for the remedying of this state of affairs was the complete reorganisation of the inspectorates of the primary and secondary branches, and the creation from the reorganised bodies and the inspectorate of the technical branch, of a standing Council of Chief Inspectors. The main work of this Council consists in the co-ordination of the inspectorial staffs of the three branches as far as the different nature of the work permits, the unification or correlation of their programmes and methods, the preparation of schemes for reforming any sections of those branches that are defective or not consonant with one another, and in general the formulation of the best methods for correlating or carrying into effect as one whole the educational policy of the Department. In this connection, I may mention that a co-ordination has also been begun between the inspectors of the Department and the examiners of the Universities. This has been done in two ways. Firstly, by the association of the professors of the various University Colleges with the inspectors of the Department of Education in the examining committees that take part in the drawing up and marking of the examination papers for the Training Colleges. The second form of co-ordination has been in the combination of the inspectors of the Department and the examiners and professors of the University Colleges into committees for the drawing up and marking of the papers for the Leaving Certificate Examination of the secondary branch. This has been done in special connection with the awarding of county council scholarships.

I do not intend to take up your time by going into the details by which the various schemes of co-ordination are being carried out. The outline that I have given you will, however, show you in a general way how the various scattered educational blocks that existed apart hitherto have been, and are being, welded together into one educational edifice. The main fact is that the chief inspectors of all three branches take part in the shaping of programmes and the organisation of the inspection of teaching in the schools of all three systems, that the lower rungs of the secondary schools are linked on to the higher ranges of the primary schools, that the chief inspectors of all three branches cooperate for the organisation and inspection of work in the Training Colleges, and that all have direct contact with the University Examining Authorities in the committees which deal with those borderland regions of education, in which the University Colleges and the various branches of the Department of Education meet on common ground. It is intended that this co-ordination and mutual co-operation between the various systems of education shall be developed still more during the coming year.

So far, I have dealt with the machinery through which the Department is endeavouring to unify the educational work of the various branches. With regard to the nature of that work itself, the present Department has been fortunate enough to inherit from the Education Department of the Provisional Government a programme of primary education drawn up by a representative conference called by the Irish National Teachers' Organisation. This programme, whatever its defects, represents the first efforts of our Irish democracy to evolve a primary school programme suited to our national needs. The Department has also been fortunate enough to inherit from the Dáil Commission on secondary education a thoroughly modern programme of secondary education. Of these two programmes the primary programme has been in operation from the period of the Provisional Government. The secondary was, with some slight modifications, put into operation by the present Department during the past year. Both programmes are therefore modern ones evolved by the representatives of the teachers with the aid of other practical educationalists.

Of the primary education programme, drawn up chiefly by the teachers, it has been said with truth that it reflects more profoundly than any other public service the far-reaching character of the changes brought about by the signing of the Treaty and the establishment of an Irish Government, that as a result of its working the past three years have seen a revolution in Irish education, the full import and significance of which is scarcely realised by the average citizen, that the effect of its operation is that: (1) to-day the Irish language permeates the whole teaching life and atmosphere of the primary system in the Saorstát, that (2) the encyclopædic curriculum that was in operation in the primary schools during the former régime has been replaced by one in which attention is concentrated on the main subjects which are the groundwork of education, i. e., Irish, English and what are called the three R's—reading, writing and arithmetic. In addition to this, the courses in the top classes of primary schools have been so co-ordinated with those of the lower classes of secondary schools as to form a complete educational link between the systems. The system of primary education, in other words, at present in operation is democratic in its origin, and aims at being simple, concentrated, and national. Nevertheless, it, like its predecessors under the old régime, has been the object of criticism which has embraced not only the programme but the whole system of primary education at present in operation in the Saorstát.

The old question: "What is wrong with primary education?"—is still being asked. The question is not one that is peculiar to Ireland nor to this generation, for it is being asked in Great Britain and elsewhere at the present moment, and here in Ireland it has been asked steadily during my lifetime. In endeavouring to find an answer to this very important question, we have to take into account the three main factors in primary education, viz.: the matter taught, the people who teach it and the pupils to whom it is taught. If in any other country there is a weakness in any or all of these factors, then the quality of primary education in that country will be defective. Here in Ireland it has been stated ever since I can remember that there was a serious weakness not merely in one but in all of these three main factors.

As regards the matter taught, or the programme, as it is called, there has been a continuous outcry for the past two generations that it was unsuitable or defective in a variety of ways. In the latter part of the nineteenth century it was said to be much too narrow and rigid. When this was changed in the beginning of the present century, the new programme was criticised as being scattered, overloaded and out of touch with the life of the people of Ireland. Similar faults were found with the teachers and the school attendance. It was said that the staff of the primary schools was not as good as it should be, because the salaries of the teachers were not such as to attract good material to the ranks of the teaching profession, and finally it was said that, even if the first and second causes of weakness were removed, the lack of a proper school attendance would still operate to keep the primary system feeble and unproductive. Well, the first and second causes of weakness are being removed. As I have said, one of the first acts of the Provisional Government was to substitute for the scattered and overloaded primary programmes of the former régime the new primary programme drawn up by a commission called together by the national teachers in the year 1921.

I have said that this primary programme aims at being simple, concentrated and national. Unfortunately, it does not follow that because a primary programme is simple, concentrated and national, it is therefore the programme that best suits present circumstances. It has, for instance, been stated that the programme is still too heavy, even though it has been lightened of many of the extra subjects that made it top-heavy under the former régime. It has also been said that the change from the old programme to the new one was too sudden, and did not take sufficiently into account the unpreparedness of very many of the teachers and pupils, especially in the matter of Irish, or the bad attendance at many of the rural schools. The Minister for Education has, therefore, at the request of the Irish National Teachers' Organisation, called together a very representative conference to examine the programme in the light of the experience gained in the operation of it during the past three years, and to report what changes, if any, are necessary to make it entirely suitable to the needs and conditions of the country. This conference included representatives of the National Teachers, the Catholic and Protestant Managers, both Houses of the Oireachtas, the General Council of County Councils, the Department of Education, the Gaelic League and other important bodies. I may mention that two of the Deputies selected from this House are those who were Commissioners of National Education under the former régime, viz: Professor Thrift and Professor Magennis. Father Lambert McKenna, the distinguished Irish scholar and educationalist, has been so good as to act as Chairman. We may hope that the programme that emerges from the hands of so representative a body will be such as will suit our national needs.

However excellent the programme may be that will be evolved by the Conference, its successful operation in the school will, however, depend on the two other factors that I have mentioned, viz.: (1) the supply of an adequate and competent body of teachers, and (2) a regular school attendance which will enable those teachers to do their work. With regard to the first of these factors, namely, the adequacy of the teachers to their task, the chief causes of weakness in this respect were the poor salaries of the teachers under the former régime and the lack of a modern system of training. The first of these causes of weakness, viz: the weak financial position of the primary teachers, had been removed by the English Treasury just before it ceased to have control of our finances, and although the teachers have suffered somewhat since then in the general reduction of salaries necessitated by our financial weakness, they are, nevertheless, very much better off than they were in former days. The second cause of weakness in the teaching staff of primary schools was the lack of a modern system of training. To meet this weakness a Departmental Committee has been set up for the purpose of examining the whole question of the training of teachers, and reporting as to what reforms are necessary, in order to bring the present system of training into line with the most modern methods.

The Committee has already reformed the curriculum of the Training Colleges, and formulated a preliminary report, which recommends a more up-to-date preparation for entrance to them, by the abolition of the monitorial system and the substitution therefor of a thoroughly modern system of Preparatory Training Colleges. Detailed proposals under this head have been already put before the Minister for Finance. When the full proposals for the training of teachers have been elaborated, they will be submitted to the Irish National Teachers' Organisation and other educational bodies for the fullest discussion, and it is to be hoped that we may in this way obtain a thoroughly modern system of training.

With regard to the second requisite for a sound primary education, viz: a satisfactory school attendance, the Parliamentary draftsman has already in hands a Compulsory Attendance Bill of a drastic type which will, I think, ensure that our future system of primary education will not be frustrated at the source. It has been urged that the School Attendance Bill has been unduly delayed. The chief reason of the delay has been the lack, until quite recently, of the machinery by which the Bill could be enforced.

It is true that a Compulsory Attendance Bill, based on the local committee's principle, might have been introduced before now. In fact such a Bill was drafted and ready for introduction over a year ago, at a time when it was believed that the Gárda Síochána would not be available as the enforcing machinery of the Act. Neither the teachers nor the experts of the Local Government Department believed, however, that a Compulsory Attendance Act, based on the local committees, could be effective outside the cities. The Local Government Department pointed out that, owing to the fact that the system of Local Government was in a transition stage, a School Attendance Bill could not well be based on present conditions of local government, which would disappear, or be considerably altered, in a short time, by the new Local Government Act. Apart from this difficulty, the Local Government Department could not approve of a Bill based on local committees, since they considered that such an Act would, in operation, be cumbersome, costly, and ineffective, compared to an Attendance Act, which would use the machinery of the Gárda Síochána.

These grave objections led to the holding up of the Bill and the renewal of negotiations with the Department of Justice as to the possibility of using the Gárda Síochána as the machinery for putting the Act into operation. When it became clear towards the end of last year that the Gárda Síochána would be available for the purpose, the Bill was re-cast. The delay since the re-casting of the Bill in the beginning of the year has been due to the fact that the other Government Departments that were affected by the Bill had to consider it carefully before it could be put into its final stage, and that the drafting of the Bill by the Parliamentary draftsman has been delayed by the pressure of other measures. I think, however, that you will agree that it was worth some delay, or, indeed, considerable delay, if as the result of this a simple, effective, and almost automatic machinery can be obtained for the enforcing of the Act.

Before I leave this question of primary education, I should mention that there is one further matter—also an important factor in our quest for efficiency—with which the Minister for Education hopes to deal as soon as possible. This country has always suffered from the inadequacy of its school buildings. The disturbances of recent years have left us still more seriously in arrears in this important particular, and the operation of an effective School Attendance Act will increase still more the lack of proper accommodation for primary education. To meet this difficulty the Department of Education is having a thorough census made of the primary school buildings of the Saorstát, and when this is complete, it may be necessary to ask you to make further provision in the Estimates to bring the primary school accommodation up to the level necessary for complete efficiency.

Up to now I have dealt entirely with problems that confront us in primary education, and the solutions that we are applying to them, since they are the most important of our educational problems. I do not propose dealing at any length with the reforms effected in secondary education, beyond saying that here also a complete educational revolution has been effected by the putting into operation, during the past year, of the new programmes drawn up by the Secondary Education Commission of the Second Dáil. The nature of this revolution may be summed up in a sentence. Rigidity has been replaced by freedom. The old programmes, narrow and formal, which encouraged merely mechanical teaching, have been superseded by thoroughly modern and elastic programmes which give full scope to the teacher's gifts and to the pupils' real tastes and faculties. The old vicious method of payment by results has been replaced by a capitation grant, which gives the school a financial security that was impossible under the old system. In future, while examinations are retained, and are indeed to hold an important part in Irish education, the income of a school will not depend on the fluctuating results obtained by individual students at yearly examinations. Instead, account will be taken of the school in every feature of its life. It will have freedom to choose in a wide curriculum those branches of education most useful to the class of pupil for whom it caters. Above all, it can devote itself to all those higher imponderable factors that make up education in its true sense; since its success in future will depend on intellectual rather than financial results. In other words, the new secondary system is a great step forward in our endeavours to solve the vital question, as to what the nature of secondary education ought to be in Saorstát Eireann, with reference to the needs of the nation that we are endeavouring to create.

The Minister for Education does not desire to take to himself any of the credit for the evolution of this great change. He has merely put into operation educational reforms that were urged on the British Government year after year by the old Intermediate Board, and in addition to these, other reforms evolved and elaborated by the very distinguished body of educationalists who were brought together for this purpose in 1922 by the Second Dáil. He no more desires to take credit for having put these reforms into operation in the schools, than for the fact that he has in the primary system been the inheritor of the modern and national programme handed on to him by his predecessor of the Provisional Government. But, owing to the amount of criticism of our educational system that has taken place recently, it is necessary to make it clear that the educational programmes at present in use in both the primary and secondary systems are new, modern, thoroughly up-to-date programmes drawn up by bodies of teachers and other educationalists in council, that steps are being taken to remedy any defects that may be found in the programme, that the training of teachers for primary school work is being thoroughly overhauled, and that the first legislative measure of the next Session will be a drastic Bill to ensure a full attendance at the primary schools.

The financial provisions for the upkeep of our educational systems may not be as satisfactory as we might have made if our exchequer were overflowing, but we have at least introduced into the secondary system a scheme of financial provision for the secondary teachers which is an entirely new thing in our history, and which, when it is in full operation, will raise the position of the assistant teachers to an entirely different plane. It has been pointed out that in the first year of the new system, some teachers will be worse off financially than they were in the last year of the old. This criticism ignores the fact that last year was the highest financial rung, the summit of the old system, while this year is the lowest rung—the mere beginning of the new—that when the new system is in full operation the teachers will be in an entirely different financial and social position.

Before I close this general summary of the present educational position of our primary and post-primary systems, I should like to say a few words about the position of technical education.

The Department of Education has, as you are aware, been in charge of technical education only since the latter part of last year. Its first step on taking over this important branch was to obtain a very complete detailed report from the chief officers of the technical branch on the actual state of technical instruction. This report has, I may say, been communicated to the other Department which is closely concerned with technical instruction, viz., the Department of Industry and Commerce. It has not been published, because, although it is an exhaustive statement of the actual condition of technical education in the Saorstát at the moment, it needs, in order to complete it, a further report embodying the full scheme of reform and reconstruction which the heads of the technical branch consider necessary in order to bring technical instruction into line with the needs of the Irish people at the present day. This further report is in process of preparation. Even when it is prepared, however, and such reforms as it may suggest have been put into operation, it will only deal with a part of the problem of post-primary education, viz., the technical training of boys and girls of post-primary age for careers in commerce or industry. There will remain the great question of the provision of post-primary part-time education, or, as it is called, continuation education, for the great mass of the young people between fourteen and eighteen years of age who have to work on the land.

This is too big a question to be solved by a Departmental Inquiry, yet when our primary system has been reorganised, as I hope that it will be during the coming year, this will be the next great educational problem. No matter how good our primary system may ultimately become, it is idle to expect that the main body of our people, who live on the land and by the land, can, without a suitable post-primary education, reach such a level of intelligence and training as will enable them to think clearly and consecutively on economic and other problems, and to enter into effective competition in the markets of the world. At present the main body of Irish workers on the land leave school at the end of the primary stage, at an age when they are just beginning to think. During the very important years between fourteen and twenty, when judgement and character is being formed, they receive little aid in the development of their thinking power, or the formation of their character, or the cultivation of their tastes, or the training of their natural aptitudes in the subjects that have a bearing on agricultural life and work. Neither secondary education nor technical education touches the vast majority of these workers. Neither can the agricultural training given by the Department of Lands and Agriculture deal with them since it is specialised training, intended for adults. It cannot be given to boys in their teens with any advantage to the community, and at present it cannot be given very effectively even to adults, since whatever they may have learned at the primary school is usually forgotten during the long period between the time they leave the primary school and the time when they begin their training under the Agricultural Department.

The reforms of school attendance and school staff and school programme in the primary schools will, therefore, not meet this particular difficulty, and unless some effective method of post-primary education suited to the needs of the rural children is evolved, not only the farming community but the nation as a whole is bound to suffer severely from their backwardness. The problem is a big one, too big for any one Department to solve unaided, and it is going to be a very urgent one. It is one which a representative Commission might with great advantage to the nation investigate thoroughly, and if there is any large body of opinion in this House that agrees with the Minister for Education as to its urgency, the Government will welcome any suggestions as to the setting up of a Commission for its investigation and for the investigation (as part of the problem) of the whole question of post-primary vocational training.

I do not propose to deal in any detail, or even at all, with the admirable essay which the President has just read for us. I would like to say, with Deputy Cooper, that we refrained from raising this question when other Votes were on, mainly because we understood that the Minister for Education would be present when the Estimates for his Department were under consideration, and that that would be the most suitable occassion, even if it were not perhaps the one that would be most strictly in order, on which to deal with this. I for one did not wish that anything that I might have to say with regard to it should be said in the absence of the Minister. What I have to say, however, must in the circumstances be said in his absence. When the Saorstát Government was set up in 1922, and again, when the Ministry was being nominated in 1923, we on this side protested strongly against the inclusion of the Minister for Education in the Executive Council, with the Intern Ministers, as it was said. We pressed that this matter of education was one which should be, as it were, above politics, as politics are understood, and that the Minister appointed for education should not be a member of the Executive Council and responsible for policy other than the policy of his own department. In other words, that he should be an Extern Minister, responsible to the Dáil. I think it will be admitted that had our advice been taken a much more satisfactory state of affairs would exist at present. This is the position about which there can be silence no longer. Education is being neglected owing to the peculiar circumstances which have arisen out of the appointment of the present Minister as a member of the Boundary Commission. That is the position, and it does not require much to be said to prove that it is the position. Of Ministers who have been in charge of other Departments, who have been in constant attendance, we can say this, that in their case, whether we agree with the amount of legislation or the various Bills they have brought forward, we cannot say that they have not been most active in bringing forward legislation. I do not think any Parliament in the world has such a record of legislative work as there is to the credit of these Departments. But what has been the record of the Department of Education, dealing with one of the principal services in the State? The record is this: One Bill has been introduced by the Minister for Education since the Saorstát was established, and that one Bill was a two-clause one, repealing some short twopence-halfpenny clause in a previous Act. So far as legislation is concerned that is the record of the Minister for Education. Take this question of compulsory attendance. I think it was two years ago, but certainly, on the Estimates last year, a definite promise was given, just as definite as the promise that was given by the President to-day, that that Bill would be introduced. It was on the President's list of Bills this time last year, and he promised to introduce that Bill amongst the first of the Bills to be introduced in the autumn session. That promise was not a whit less definite than the Minister's promise to-day.

It was not less definite, but I think that the circumstances ought to be taken into account.

Mypoint is this, that I am quite satisfied that if a Bill of this nature and of this necessity, especially and above all of this necessity to the country, was one that was promised, let us say by the Minister for Agriculture, or by the Minister for Justice or by the Minister for Industry and Commerce, two years ago, we would not to-day be trusting to another promise. I am quite satisfied on that point. One of the principal complaints that were made up and down the country in the time of the British régime with regard to education and the neglect of education, was that no interest was taken by the people in educational matters. The reason was that there was no real authority responsible to anybody that had charge of education. Chief Secretary after Chief Secretary said in the House of Commons: "This is a body for which I am not responsible. I have no control over the Board of National Education." That was the plea, that there was no responsibility. Then a Minister for Education was appointed, and how has that state of affairs been changed, and to what extent? See the impression, naturally and of necessity, that is given to the country by what has taken place in the past two years. The only Minister that could be spared from his duties was the Minister for Education. I want to make it quite plain that I hope nobody will take it that there is the slightest thing personal in anything I have said or will say with regard to the Minister for Education: I say that lest there should be any misunderstanding on the point. In another capacity, I have always found, when he was to be found, that he was willing to meet us, to discuss any point we had to put before him, and to give the fullest and fairest consideration to our views. I want to make that plain lest it should be thought for a moment that it is because of any reason other than that of public necessity that I am raising this matter.

As I say, people see the position, and they have come to regard it as natural, that education is the one service about which it does not matter much whether or not a Minister is in charge. That is the position they have taken up, and there is no real or genuine interest by the country as a whole in educational matters. If you want proof of that I ask any Deputies who stood on election platforms from time to time, how often did they hear this question raised. They have heard questions regarding protection, land, industry, and railways; but how many Deputies have ever been heckled on their attitude or policy on educational matters? What does that indicate? It indicates that there is no real, genuine interest with regard to educational matters; and that again is so because there is not a Minister who is functioning as a Minister for Education, and only as a Minister for Education, in the way that such a Minister ought to function. The Minister for Education is not, after all, merely the head of a Department. No doubt there are in his Department capable and able officials, as capable and as able as there are in any Department of the State, and I might go further and say that but for that, things would be very much worse. But these officials are not in a position to educate the people, to get on a public platform and point out to the people the necessity for taking an interest in education. That, after all, is the main function of the Minister, to take advantage of every possible occasion that arises by meetings, conferences of teachers and educational bodies of one kind or another, to bring before the people the necessity for education and to create an interest in education. That is the main duty, and it should be the main duty of the Minister for Education to the country. He should endeavour to create an interest in his Department, get people talking about it, get it discussed and have the different points of view on it.

Then, there is the position with regard to the Dáil. The Minister has not been able to attend; his duties have called him elsewhere. Deputies have got tired, almost, of putting down questions and having the answers read out by other Ministers. If Deputies want information of any kind, they now simply write official letters to the Department. That is not fair to the Dáil. The Minister's duty is to be in the Dáil to answer for his Department. If it were not so, then there should be no Ministers, as such, but merely heads of Departments to whom you could address official correspondence. The whole idea of Parliamentary and Ministerial responsibility will be lost sight of if that is allowed to continue. In regard to this matter, there has been very great indulgence on the part of Deputies and the people generally. It has been mentioned in various places from time to time. The time has come when we should know how long it is going to continue.

The Minister for Education, as a Boundary Commissioner, has grave and responsible duties. We all admit that. I am quite sure there is no one in the country who is better able or better qualified to act in that capacity than the Minister for Education. But is there any guarantee that this is going to finish before the autumn session—that the Boundary Commission is going to be wound up before the autumn session, or in the next two years? The President obviously could not say. I daresay the Boundary Commissioners themselves are not in a position to say. What the Dáil and the country are entitled to know is how long this Ministry is going to be treated as the Cinderella of the service. How long will it be until we have a Minister in the Dáil responsible for the vital service of education? It is due to the country and the House that the President should state plainly and definitely what are the intentions of the Government with regard to the carrying on of the duties of the Minister for Education in the way in which they should be carried on, while the present Minister holds the position of a Boundary Commissioner.

I join with Deputy O'Connell in expressing admiration of the essay on education which was read to the House by the President. From internal evidence, I recognise the authorship, and I am glad to realise that his right hand has not lost its cunning, though he is now imprisoned in the fetters of an official position. He is an educationist, with a lively and an active touch on matters educational in the country, and he unites a wise conception of educational theory with the possibilities of their actualisation in practice, in view of the conditions that run in the country at present. There is just, however, in my tribute of admiration, on little drop of alien matter. The Minister for Education himself, on one occasion, said that I had thrown myself all the bouquets and had reserved the brick for him. It is difficult with regard to anything in education to withhold the brick; it requires enormous self-restraint, in fact, not to hurl a whole brick-yard rather than a single brick.

The point I single out for special criticism is the policy with regard to the training colleges. I do not like to intrude my own experience unduly in these matters, but I do not think that I exaggerate if I say that, through the lapse of years, I am now in the position of having the longest experience from the inside of the working of a training college for primary teachers. For years and years, longer than I care to count, I have been raising, or attempting to raise, a public interest in the position of the training college as an integral element. At one period there is tinkering with programmes; at another period there is tinkering with the whole fabric of education, and somehow the educationists, until recently—until, in practice, the day before yesterday—have not realised that so far as primary education is concerned the clue, the central bolt of the whole machine, is the training college. Reforms, no matter how well inspired or intentioned or how excellent they may have been in their direction, would be futile until the training colleges have been constituted in the way in which they might be constituted. Personally, I have been in favour for many years of making the training college part and parcel of the university organisation. When the National University of Ireland was created, it was one of the very first things that I brought forward there. That was in 1909. It seems to be incredible, but there is the fact that 16 years have been expended upon this problem and it was only last year that co-ordination with regard to examinations between the University authorities and the work of the training college was brought into being. The point I want to stress particularly is the announcement that a Departmental Committee is investigating the matter of training colleges. Are the training colleges aware that there is a Departmental Committee sitting to make inquiries in regard to them? Have they ever been notified of the fact?

I will now come to a much smaller matter, namely, how to deal with continuation schools and how to deal with what is really one of my pet problems, the extension of education beyond the limits of the primary school for those whose circumstances force them to leave school prematurely and who yet must be provided with some facilities and opportunities for being made fit for their lives in the country. It is a big question; I do not desire to minimise it; but in comparison with the training college question, it is a very little matter. Yet, the declaration in regard to this question of continuation schools is that it is "too big for a Departmental inquiry." The minor matter is too big for a Departmental inquiry, but the major matter is a fit subject for a Departmental inquiry. I think that requires some explanation.

There is an organisation of the professors of training colleges. In its last years, its repentant years, although it was unaware that those were its dying years, the late Board of National Education recognised that association. Formerly, professors in the training colleges existed, but they were not recognised as part of the educational machine or fabric. They could make representations to their employers, and their employers could, if they thought fit—and I must say they were always indulgent—make representations to the National Board; but the National Board took it on itself to hear them directly, and that excellent policy was followed by the Ministry of Education when they became free and had complete control of their own affairs.

took the Chair.

I am sorry the element of the capital "I" must figure so largely in this. It is like the story of Robinson Crusoe. He could hardly relate his adventures without speaking of "I" and "me." I had the advantage of going with a deputation of teachers, professors, of the training colleges before the Ministry. The secretary and two other prominent officials received the deputation, and I need hardly say they received it, not merely sympathetically, but with a full appreciation of their representations, and it was agreed that henceforth programmes should not be formulated for the teachers in training colleges. They were first to be submitted to the men and women who were to work out those programmes and who were to give the training and education in accordance with those programmes. Everybody knows the homely proverb, that it is the wearer who knows where the shoe pinches.

Now, what is claimed for secondary schools as one of the great advantages that they have got, in the statement which the President read, was that they have a thoroughly elastic programme which left free scope to the teachers' gifts. There is no reform of greater value than that so far as regards the relation of the professor and the programme. That is one of the triumphs of the Educational Ministry. I spoke of tinkering with programmes. While this very excellent reform has been made, it seems to me likely to be prostrated in its beneficent action, because while the professor with his elastic programme and his gifts is left free to deal with the students in his charge in accordance with his conception of their capacity and needs in order that the results may be successful to the college and to the teacher who is in the process of formation, an examination must be passed and passed satisfactorily, and that still partakes of the old bad character of purely external examination. It is like giving an ailing patient the right medicine and forgetting to put him on the right dietary. That still awaits reform. It would serve to have the examination paper set the previous Christmas, and have the visit of the inspectors to the training college to take place in the May or June following.

I hold that a departmental committee is not big enough for this task, although I do not asperse the competence and capacity of the gentlemen who form that departmental committee. Everything has its limits. In the forest, a lion sometimes meets a bigger lion or an elephant meets a still bigger elephant or a rhinoceros. While I am willing to admit the capacity and competence of those who constitute the departmental committee, I say that this is a problem far too big for a departmental committee, and that the Ministry of Education would do itself more justice, and would certainly meet the needs of the educational situation better, if a proper type of commission were set up. This is a far bigger matter than the public will realise, and the details of it are, perhaps, too delicate for discussion in a public assembly. But there is a matter of life and death with regard to this nation concerned in it. There is a danger, as there always is a danger in central Government, of the disease of bureaucracy. That was the disease of diseases that characterised the National Board. It was an irresponsible bureaucracy, and it was only in its very last days that it became a bureaucracy tempered by democratic elements.

In connection with this Vote, criticism has been passed with regard to the Minister. With all respect to Deputy O'Connell, with whose views about education and whose desires for educational reforms I am, in the main, in agreement, there is something of the fallacy of post hoc, ergo propter hoc, in his arraignment of the Minister and Ministry of Education for the shortcomings and delinquencies of Irish primary education. We all know, to use a favourite journalistic expression, that its condition is “simply deplorable.”

I may be permitted to explain that I did not intend to blame the Minister for the present position of primary education and its delinquencies. I only blame him for not doing what he should be naturally expected to do—to make improvements and reforms.

Most of the expressions that one uses are portmanteau expressions. They are really shortcuts. I suppose I should be infinitely more diffuse than I am if I were to say everything in exact, clear-cut detail. There has been a fearful amount of leeway in late years in primary education. I doubt if it will be made up in ten years. I am an optimist almost by profession, and yet, in spite of my optimism, I cannot assure myself that the leeway of the last few years will be made up in ten years. The moral of that is that we must get going immediately. The Minister for Education is the handy-man of the Government that I have the honour to support. When there is any difficult matter to be dealt with, he is selected for the purpose. Unfortunately, he is the only man in the Government ranks who is fit to be Minister for Education. The country has got to put up with that unhappy combination of circumstances.

Unfortunately for whom?

For everyone concerned. When we were enacting the Constitution, the Governing idea was that we were to get away from government by party, the old vicious British system of party government, of parties with their rigorous rules of party discipline, of men voting against their consciences, of men silent when they should speak and speaking the things they did not believe when they should be silent—all that was to have been done away with. A new and cleaner spirit was to take possession of the Irish nation and we were to have government by groups. It was in view of that idea of government by groups that the whole scheme of Ministries was framed. We have departed from that ideal under the strain of circumstances. We have government by party, and, so long as we have government by party and so long as the country is satisfied to have government by party, it must pay the price.

Even the Independents become absorbed.

Yes. I think, therefore, that the situation of which Deputy O'Connell so eloquently complains is due to the existence of party government. In the histories of all peoples there is the "man of destiny," and in this case, so far as regards the Ministry of Education, the present Minister is the "man of destiny." I think it is useless to fight against fate and, therefore, I confine myself to criticisms upon the administrative side of education.

I think the inspectorial system ought to be taken in hand by, for example, a departmental committee. I can imagine a more useful exercise of the ability and experience of a departmental committee in that direction than in connection with the training colleges. What is the office of an inspector? What part is he supposed to play? Under the old National Board system—the old infernal days of government from below—he was a spy upon the teacher. The teacher and the inspector were natural enemies. Boy-scouts or girl-scouts reported the advent of an inspector. He was then within six, eight or ten miles' distance of the school and things were got ready to receive him. In the case of the intermediate inspectors when, for secondary schools, a system of inspection was set up, as I had the pleasure of pointing out to the House on a previous occasion, the inspectors made their own tradition as a new body and they acted as guides. They were educational experts who entered sympathetically into the problems that beset the secondary schools and the teachers and everyone concerned recognised in them friends. I wonder whether the little leaven that leaveneth the whole mass is, in the totality of inspectors now, the secondary school inspector or the national school inspector. Is the secondary school inspector putting his spirit into the total body, or is the reverse happening? That is something for a departmental committee to inquire into. What is the attitude to-day of the teachers to the inspectors? These matters are treated, of course, as technical matters between the scholastic pedant and the Ministry but, if the country would only realise it, these are questions that go to the whole root of national prosperity. We have no primary education in this country that is worth a scintilla. A Deputy told me to-day of how he received a deputation in a certain country district representing several thousands of people. They were out of employment, and when he inquired as to what capacity they had for employment, they were merely fit for unskilled labour. And all of them had been at school for years! I am in a position to say, from contact as an examiner with pupils who have left the schools, whether their intelligence was awakened. I do not ask what information had they been stocked with, because, as regards general information, they have practically none. They would not know an elm tree from an oak, nor would they know a sparrow from a hedgehog. Their powers of observation are neither awakened nor trained. Their capacity for reasoning remains dormant. They have the natural sagacity unimpaired that the ordinary animal has from god as his initial outfit. They know about some rivers in a vague sort of way. They have an idea that there is a place called Asia, but where it is in relation to Africa, it would be too much to expect them to say. That is side by side with the fact that there are excellent schools, admirable teachers, and that splendid work is done.

Someone—I think it was Deputy O'Connell—spoke of going on a public platform and talking to the people about education. He who would do that would be regarded as unpractical. It would be all very well for a professor of metaphysics to do that. Professors are men going about blindfolded and unaware of the facts of life, but for a man who claims to be a practical man, to go and address the multitude on education anywhere—why, they would say he was ignorant of all the facts of life and blind to all the tendencies. Who cares a jot about education in Ireland? To care about education demands some education as a pre-condition. I pay a tribute that I know is deserved to the officials in the Ministry of Education, but I feel the utmost sympathy with them, because I know very well that they are trying to do the impossible. They are making programmes and they are promoting conferences, and they are conducting inquiries, and they are trying to do a lot of things, but they never will succeed in doing them, because they have not got the people with them. Not one iota of a debate on education will get out to the public. The Press will see to that. The old vicious thing goes on propagating itself year after year. This is "the first flower of the earth and the first gem of the sea." That is good enough for popular consumption, and because there is a larger number of the population able to say it in Irish, we are to pretend that the population of the country is being prepared for life. They are not being prepared for life, and until those continuation-schools, projected by the Secretary to the Ministry of Education, have been brought into being and are in operation, we cannot make the claim that what is called "public education" is serving the purpose of public education. The complaint is made from the technical schools, year after year, that technical education is impeded, because so much of the time that ought to be devoted to technical education has to be expended in preparation of the pupils in those matters in which they are supposed to be already proficient.

Representatives of committees of technical instruction in the County of Dublin and representatives of committees of agricultural education in the County of Dublin, gave evidence recently before the Commission on Greater Dublin. What they said on these matters, of course, was not reported. It would disturb the equanimity of the public. I know it is not the policy of the Department of Education to hoodwink the public, or pretend that things are not better than they are. But here is the fact that nearly six millions of money are being expended in this country on education at the present moment—higher education, university education, and secondary education. The amount is insufficient, no doubt. Yet the sum, if you add together the amount in the different Votes and the amount that is paid in grants, must total close upon six million pounds a year. I cannot speak patiently about these things. Anyone who is living on the inside, and is all the time confronted with the evils, must feel it impossible to speak patiently about them. I realised to-day, for instance, when the University Vote was taken, while it came on as a surprise, it was futile to speak about it. I know I am engaged in futility at the present moment. Things will go just as before. Still, I think it my duty to say something about these things that I know of. I think it my duty to extend my meed of praise, such as it is, and whatever little value that attaches to it, coming from me, to the Department of Education. They are working exceedingly well, and they are under the very adverse circumstance of having no official head. I do not dwell upon that point any further. It is part of the price we are paying in this transition age, where we are building up institutions, and where we have a limited number of able men at our disposal. It so happens, for the purposes of the Boundary Commission, that the absence of the Minister becomes inevitable. It is part of the cross.

I want to move a reduction of the Vote by £17,568. That is leaving a round £100,000 to be passed on this occasion. My object in adopting this procedure is to ensure that it will be necessary for the Minister to come to the Dáil in the autumn with a supplementary Estimate. I desire to be in such a position when that Estimate is being brought forward that all the details, or any of the details of this Vote, may come under discussion. There are many matters that require consideration—matters dealing with inspection, training, curricula, buildings, maintenance, and sanitation of schools, and all the questions that arise under these various votes, such as have been the subject of discussion on other occasions. But it is evident from all that has passed, that it is useless our discussing these matters in the absence of the Minister responsible. We do not want to prevent the work of the Education Office going forward, but we do want to ensure that there shall be the fullest opportunity given for discussing the Estimates in just such a manner as we would on this occasion if the Minister were present, and we may hope that a Minister for Education will be present in the autumn. Perhaps, if it is not likely that the Boundary Commission's work will be completed within the next year, and if the Minister for Education considers he will be occupied all that time, it may be thought by the autumn that a new Minister should be appointed. That is a matter not for us; it is for the President.

But we would have fair reason for hoping and expecting that when the question of the Department of Education comes forward for discussion and a new Estimate to make up the total amount required would be under discussion, then we could discuss the various details with an expectation that the information that would be required would be available. We do not think it is fair or reasonable, either to the President, who has taken charge of this Vote, or to Deputies as a whole, that we should enter upon discussions of details that are contained within these Estimates. But we do not want to forego the rights that we have for the discussion of these details, and we think we ought to be able to secure and be ensured of the attendance of the Minister responsible. I think that this procedure is probably the best way to ensure that an opportunity will be provided for discussing details as well as policy in the autumn, and I therefore move that the sum now required be reduced by £17,568 so as to leave a round £100,000 to be voted on on this occasion.

I do not know that it is necessary to second this amendment. If so, I shall have pleasure in doing so. The object I wish to secure has been really stated very well by Deputy Johnson. I do not propose to undertake any criticism in detail of this Vote, in the absence of the Minister. In saying that I am not challenging, in any way, the ability of the President. This is a matter of principle. I take that point of view. I do not see exactly how we can secure a full opportunity in the autumn of going into the various points which ought to be brought up under discussion of this Vote without adopting some such plan as he has suggested. If the President were to undertake that we should have an opportunity in the autumn of discussing any point of detail that may arise in connection with the Vote, for my part, I would prefer to let the whole Vote go through. But probably that cannot be done in strict accordance with the Constitution. We are bound to pass a Vote; we cannot in the ordinary way pass a Vote on account, we would have to pass the whole Vote. I do not see that there is any better way of securing what we want than adopting the course Deputy Johnson has suggested, passing the Vote as if it were £100,000 and requiring a Supplementary Estimate in the autumn. If the other alternative could be secured I should be prepared to agree to it, but I think Deputy Johnson's suggestion is the best.

I would urge upon the President to agree to the course suggested by Deputy Johnson. This Vote came as a great surprise to me and to most of my colleagues here who are interested in education. While realising that the absence of the Minister for Education is perhaps inevitable, and realising very strongly that the President would certainly not be a party to burking discussion, such an attempt would be too outrageously callous and silly and we have solid confidence in the personal character of the President that makes such an idea inconceivable in his case. We have been looking forward to a debate on education. There are many vital questions we want to raise. The secondary teachers at the present time are in a very anxious state of mind; their future is quite unsettled. Hopes are being held out to them, promises have been made, and it is essential that the Minister should be here to sketch his policy or explain what he has done. I think if the President could agree to the course that Deputy Johnson suggests, it would meet our wishes, and if it facilitates the Government that this Vote should go through in this partial way at the present moment, I am ready to assent; but we must be assured of a full debate on some early date.

I would like to urge on the President the advisability of adopting the amendment moved by Deputy Johnson, or some other suggestion that will meet Deputy Johnson's point and the points put forward by Deputies Thrift and Alton. I think Deputies will possibly know that from the position which I happen to occupy there is scarcely a Deputy in the Dáil who is more qualified to go into the details of administration with regard to these various headings than I happen to be, because in educational matters, in any case, I speak as representing the views of twelve or thirteen thousand people, who are engaged in carrying out the work for which this money is being voted. From that point of view alone, as well as from the point of view of the general public, there is scarcely one of these details with which I have not an intimate acquaintance. I would like to say quite candidly that I do not propose to take part in the make-believe debate that I believe it would be if we enaged in a detailed discussion of these various headings without the presence of the responsible Minister. That is the position. While the work of education must go on, there is no desire on the part of anybody to prevent the money being voted to have that work carried on, but what we do want to assure is this: that with the responsible Minister present there will be an opportunity of discussing every single detail of administration on any of these four Votes. I would urge the Minister strongly to meet the views which have been expressed by Deputies on that particular point.

Surely it must be obvious to these Deputies that if the Minister were here he should have to plead his absence from his office through so many months in extenuation of having no absolute personal knowledge of the transactions he is called upon to defend. With all respect to these Deputies, my colleagues on educational matters, you are really creating an artificial position. True, the responsible Minister in constitutional Governments must be at hand to defend, or to attempt to—in short, as the phrase runs—give an account of his stewardship. But, admittedly, in this particular case, there is no stewardship to render an account of. That is why I call this artificial. We are all cognisant of the fact that the Minister has been necessitated to be absent from the work of his office. He could not know any more about it than the ordinary Deputy in the Dáil, perhaps even less.

Will he not know any more in October? Is that the contention?

Possibly. The Boundary Commission work may go on, it was said by someone, for even two years. That situation is the situation. There is nothing more palpable than that, and the President, as instructed by the Ministry, would be in at least as good a position to answer as the Minister, who would merely return for the purpose of being coached on the subject. After all, this eagerness to get at the facts, and to criticise whatever may present itself for criticism, I join with and think commendable. Surely this is the form of publicity provided in the Constitution. And whether or not we get answers, let us look back historically. What sort of answers did we ever get from the Minister for Education with regard to any of these things that we brought forward in debate here? I declared myself a few days ago here a realist in these matters. Let us throw away all this pretence. When criticisms were made, when things were challenged, as regards policy or administration, when matters were suggested, what difference did it make that the Minister was not here? It is an idle pretence that we require to have him here for the purpose of the debate. The Departmental officials and the President are quite well able to fill the situation.

I am convinced, whatever else we vote now, that we ought not to vote the salary of the Minister for Education. Deputy Magennis has convinced me that we do not need a Minister for Education. He is a luxury. The President and the Departmental officials are all that is needed. The President can take this office under his wing and, with the Departmental officials, run it. The precise Vote we are discussing is a Vote for the office and salary of the Minister. Why then should we vote it? As a matter of fact, there is some value in this criticism, there is some value in having the Minister here. He has been Minister for Education for three years. The Boundary Commission has withdrawn him from his duty for a little more than six months. Surely his previous knowledge, his knowledge of the organisation of the office, of the policy which he set on foot, and which has been continued, is a matter on which we have a right to put questions—if there be a policy. If there is no policy, we are entitled to ask him why there is no policy. He was Minister for Education quite long enough before the Boundary Commission came into being to have started a policy of some kind; long enough to be criticised; long enough to bring home to him what the old theologians called "conviction of sin." For all these reasons it is important that we should have him here. Therefore, I strongly support Deputy Johnson's suggestion.

It seems to me that Deputy Magennis has made it absolutely necessary to have the Minister before us. We are protesting against a debate of this sort as purely farcical. Deputy Magennis has shown us that a debate before the Minister for Education will be a farce, because the Minister will not be responsible, as he is completely ignorant of what is going on in his Department.

And always has been.

Perhaps the President will take over the Department of Education himself and run it for a year. Then we will know where we are. I was pinning my faith on the debate in the autumn. Deputy Magennis tells me we can expect nothing from it. I want to know is the President going to be responsible for this Department. I know the Ministry, as a whole, is responsible for the departments, but surely it is necessary that we should ask the Minister what his particular views, intentions and purposes are, and how far he has carried out certain promises that he made to us last year. Our request for a full debate, face to face with the Minister, is not an unreasonable one, and I am sure the President, as a fair-minded man, will see our point of view.

I could not accept Deputy Johnson's amendment that the Vote be reduced by a certain amount. That would be a rather dangerous precedent to set. I would undertake, however, to introduce a token Vote in respect either of the office of the Minister for Education or any other service over which he has administrative responsibility in the autumn, when we are satisfied that the Minister will be available, and allow on that Vote any question to be raised which might reasonably be raised on the Estimates. I do not think I could be asked to do more than that.

If the President means by that that we may take these Estimates and go through them in the same way as we would if we were dealing with the Estimates themselves, and do all that on a token Vote, that satisfies me entirely.

On each of these four Estimates?

In such a case, so far as we are concerned, we will raise no question whatever on any of these Votes of the Education Department on this occasion. We will allow them to go through without any comment. That is so far as Deputy O'Connell and myself are concerned. Other Deputies, of course, are responsible for their own acts, but so far as those matters are concerned, if we have an opportunity of going through them as if we were dealing with Estimates on the token Vote, that will satisfy us.

Does the President mean that we should pass the entire sum now, and then take the matter in the autumn from the very beginning, as though no such action has been taken, or does he mean that we should now pass sufficient to last until, say, November or December, and then raise the matter again, still leaving some opening?

I take it the President means that we should pass Votes 41, 42, 43 and 44. Does the President include the Science and Art Vote?

Mr. O'CONNELL

All the Votes of the Department of Education?

On the understanding expressed by Deputy Johnson, I, for my part, agree.

Policy or administration. I am not asking for it in order to get these Estimates through now.

DEPUTIES

We understand.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Vote put, and agreed to.
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