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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 18 Jun 1925

Vol. 12 No. 11

COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS.

I, with eleven others, was appointed by the Dáil to act as a Committee of Public Accounts for this year. Last year a Committee was set up, and it was unfortunate that for a time there was difficulty in getting a quorum. In consequence, an appeal was made for a reduction in the quorum, and it was decided to reduce it from five to four. A similar quorum obtains this year, four out of twelve. I was appointed by the Committee to act as its Chairman, and I think it my duty to report to the Dáil that on two occasions within the past fortnight meetings have been abortive, by virtue of the fact that no quorum was present for half-an-hour after the time announced for the meeting. The effect of not having a quorum is, first, that the Committee cannot continue its work, second, that the time of high officials of State is wasted, inasmuch as they are bound to be present at the meetings of the Committee. I am making that report as Chairman of the Committee. I should like to say a word, as a Deputy, in comment upon the statement of the Chairman of the Committee.

The functions of Deputies of this House do not seem to have been readily understood by many Deputies. I think those duties involve, as first preference, attendance on Committees, particularly on the Committee of Public Accounts. The duty of attending Committees should be looked upon as of quite primary importance. The Committee of Public Accounts is, one might say, complementary, is a necessary complement, to the voting of grants of money by the Dáil. Unless we are going to confirm the work of the Committee on Finance—that is to say, the whole House sitting as a Committee—and to make sure that the requirements of the law have been satisfied in the spending of public moneys, then our duty as Deputies is not fulfilled. The House would, no doubt, find it impracticable to do this work, and therefore there devolves upon a Committee the duty of examining the Appropriation Accounts and the report of the Comptroller and Auditor-General.

If it is impossible to obtain the attendance of a Committee to do the work that is necessary for the Dáil as the guardian of the public purse and the custodian of public taxation—if a Committee cannot be found which will deem it its duty to do that work conscientiously and carefully—then the only alternative would be the impossible one of having all those matters discussed in the Dáil. I think it is necessary to make this comment, that unless Deputies of all parties recognise the responsibilities attaching to membership of the House, which involves an obligation to attend Committees, particularly important Committees such as this, then membership of the House is going to lose in honour, because it is devoid of responsibility.

In connection with this Committee, Deputy Johnson has said a good deal; but, having said so much, he should have said something more. This Committee, like every other Committee in the House, is composed of different parties in proportion to their strength as represented in the Dáil. The privilege that is claimed that parties should be represented in proportion to their strength has been very religiously insisted upon by members of those parties. It is quite obvious, from Deputy Johnson's statement, that some individual Deputies or parties have been responsible for a dereliction of duty. Deputy Johnson might have given us a list of the attendances of the Deputies on that Committee. I do not think it is quite fair to leave us without that list of attendances. I do not know anything about the attendance of Deputies. I know that two members of my party are on the Committee. To my knowledge they attended the Committee meetings under great difficulties. They came from the country time and time again and they gave a good attendance. I believe their average attendance was good. I do not think any fault can be found with the attendance of the Deputies from those Benches. The general attendance of Deputies on this Committee should be given to the Dáil.

I think that is a fair request. The Deputies on the Committee are: Deputies Cooper, P.J. Egan, Roddy, Esmonde, Wilson, T.J. O'Connell, Johnson, Hewat, Broderick, Connor Hogan, Lavin, and McCullough. There were ten meetings called, two of which have been abortive.

What is the quorum?

The quorum is four. Deputy Cooper attended 10 meetings; Deputy Hewat, 3; Deputy Wilson, 5; Deputy Connor Hogan, 5; Deputy Johnson, 10; Deputy O'Connell, 6; Deputy P.J. Egan, 7; Deputy Roddy, 5; Deputy Esmonde, 4; Deputy Broderick, 4; Deputy Lavin, 3; and Deputy McCullough, 5.

In conjunction with the question of attendance, I think we should consider, in equity, the demands that have been made on the time of members of the House. For some considerable time past this House has been sitting four days a week and on almost every occasion, with the exception of one day in the week, when it sat earlier in the day, the House continued sitting until 10.30 p.m. If Deputies are to be called upon to sacrifice all that time to do the business of the House, then, surely, it is only fair that some consideration should be given to those business men who have to attend on Committees of the House. If the demands of the House had not been so great, more time would have been at the disposal of those members to attend on the different Committees. The demands that are being made on the time of members of the House will, I am afraid, have a serious effect on the interests of the House. We are anxious that the House, as representative of the State, should have in it representatives from all the different classes in the community. It is quite obvious that, if commerce is to have that representation in the House that we would like to see it have, it will be most difficult to find business men who can give up the amount of time that the House is demanding of business men at the moment. That is an aspect of the question that ought to be considered. There is a great deal of time taken up here in the House—I will not say that it is taken up in useless discussion, but I will go so far as saying that there is a good deal of time that might be saved that is not saved. That particular aspect of the question ought to be considered in the interests of the country.

With respect to the Farmer Deputies on this Committee, the House will remember that the spring has been very wet and during the time that it rained we attended very religiously on that particular Committee and on every other Committee. When the fine weather came during recent weeks, naturally we had to attend to our business in the country. It was during those weeks that there were numerous meetings of the Committee and, in consequence, the attendance of our Deputies was not too good. I would like the House to understand that it was not because they were wanting in any sense of duty that the Farmer Deputies failed to attend; it was simply because the country needed their services, and because of that call they could not be here.

It is true, as Deputy Good says, that we are all working under a very considerable strain. I do not think he meant to limit the strain of work to business men alone, because other Deputies in the Dáil have duties as well. The Labour Deputies have duties; some of them are Secretaries of Trade Unions, and they have other responsibilities. Certainly there is no other Deputy who devotes himself more assiduously to his duty than Deputy Johnson, yet he is able to achieve a full 100 per cent. attendance on this Committee. As Deputy Johnson says, there is something lacking in our frame of mind in regard to those Committees. The particular Committee he refers to is one that takes up the time of Deputies on important public service and it occupies as well the time of high officials of the Department of Finance, including the Comptroller and Auditor-General, who, with other officials, has to attend this Committee to justify the expenditure of the money that we voted here two years ago for the service of different Departments. We have sat there and we have waited for a quorum. Those officials sat twiddling their thumbs and wasting time that would be better employed doing the work of the country. That is why I think Deputy Johnson is abundantly justified in bringing this matter before the Dáil.

It is true that we have claims on our time and many responsibilities, but, on the whole, the worst attendance on the Committee of Public Accounts has been given by those Deputies who take the least part in the debates in the Dáil, and who, to outward appearances at any rate, have comparatively few duties and responsibilities. They are not serving on other Committees and they are not very active participants in the general work of the Dáil. I feel puzzled, as Deputy Johnson is puzzled, as to whether this Committee can be carried on on these lines. We have Deputies putting forward the claims of their fields or the necessity for attending a party meeting, or other claims of that sort. Inevitably, claims of different kinds do come. For instance, I am constantly finding myself torn in two.

The process does not appear to be near completion.

As I say, I am finding myself torn in two. The process is not yet complete. No doubt when the process is complete, and when there are two of me, the other half will expel Deputy Figgis from his seat in my constituency. I find myself constantly torn in two, so to speak, and I have no doubt other Deputies find themselves in the same position. If we allow other claims to influence us beyond the claims of the important and responsible duties of the Dáil, we shall never get the work done, and we shall have to discuss all these matters in full in the Dáil, and remain in session until we have disposed of them.

I hope to be able to get in touch with some members of the different parties in question, and I hope to be able to make arrangements, during such special occasions as were mentioned by Deputy Wilson, so that the Committee will not lack a quorum. I have seen some Deputies in regard to the matter and I believe that in future there will at least be a quorum present.

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