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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 16 Dec 1925

Vol. 13 No. 20

DAIL IN COMMITTEE. - DEFENCE FORCES (TEMPORARY PROVISIONS) (No. 2) BILL, THIRD STAGE.

Question proposed—"That Section 1 stand part of the Bill."

I am not quite sure that I am entitled to raise, on this section, a question with reference to notices which have appeared in the Press, in the last few days, in regard to certain members of the Defence Forces being sent to the United States for education purposes. I do not know if the Minister would be willing, at this stage, to give the House any information or confirmation as to the reports which appeared in the Press on that matter.

I would like also if the Minister would add to our knowledge of the Defence Forces, as to what are his intentions regarding the Corps of Engineers. I have been informed that certain new arrangements are being arrived at in this matter and that a certain disbandment is taking place in connection with some reorganisation of the Corps of Engineers. While my information is not at all definite, I invite the Minister to take us into his confidence and tell us if anything of that kind is taking place and what it is.

As regards the point raised by Deputy Esmonde, as to the question of sending a delegation of officers to America, for the purpose of seeing how things are done there and of bringing back information that would be useful to us in our training school, it is proposed to send a delegation of officers to America. The arrangements are not yet complete, and until they have been completed I will not be in a position to give all the information the Deputy would like on the question.

As regards the point raised by Deputy Johnson, a scheme of reorganisation is being prepared in my Department, but it has not reached me yet for my approval or disapproval. What the exact details of the scheme are I do not know at the moment.

Could the Minister say how many times there have been reorganisation schemes since, say, two years ago in this Department?

I think there were two reorganisation schemes, so that this will be the third. I do not suppose that even this will be the final one. We are building up the Army, and there will have to be several schemes of reorganisation before it reaches its final stage.

Will the Minister not accept this proposition as a general proposition, that no organisation, either civil or military, is likely to grow into health and strength if it is going to be recast every six months, or if reorganisation is going to take place before a proper trial has been given to the last attempt? I am sorry the Minister is not able to give us any further information as to the present proposal, but it surely is a sign of very great weakness and, shall I say, incompetence, to have reorganisation schemes put into operation every few months. The Minister says this will be the third. The Army is not many years old, and I suppose the Army Corps of Engineers is younger than any other portion of the Army.

As the Minister has stated that arrangements are not yet completed with regard to this delegation to America, I should like to know from him whether it is his intention that this delegation of officers are to go to America simply to investigate that training in that country, or whether it is his intention that this school of officers shall undergo a definite course of training in that country.

It is the intention that they will undergo a course of training in some of the schools of America. I think one of them is Westpoint. As regards the exact training that they will get there, I am not in a position to say, but it will be for the delegation when they go there or for the head of the delegation to find out exactly what is being done in these schools and to bring back anything that would be helpful to the Army and to the country generally in connection with the forming of our school for military training. I do hope that when these officers return we will be in a position to start our school on a proper footing. A school for military training has been contemplated for a long time, but, before forming it, I think it is better that we should get all the information we can from countries that have longer army traditions behind them than we have. We shall have that information collated, so that we can start our school on a proper basis.

So far as Deputy Johnson's point is concerned, I do not think that any reorganisation that is contemplated at the present time is going to prejudice any person. The Corps of Engineers is just as old as the Army itself. There were engineers, as far as I remember, from the beginning. If it is found necessary, in the public interest and the interests of the Army, that that corps or any other corps should be reorganised, I think it is for the benefit of the whole Army that it should be done. If we found defects in the present scheme I think we should be lacking in our duty if we did not try to remedy them.

Of course the Minister is perfectly right in saying that if he found a certain thing necessary that it should be done. Obviously, he did not realise that what was found necessary twelve months ago led to a particular form of reorganisation. I think the reorganisation that was then put into operation has not had time to get a fair trial. If, every few months, it is found necessary to reorganise any institution, it is a sign of too hurried reorganisation on the last occasion, or changes in policy which were not contemplated, perhaps sudden changes in policy or faulty personnel. Surely it will be admitted that it is an undesirable thing, speaking generally, to reorganise any institution too frequently. If it is said now that when the necessity arises reorganisation should be accomplished we will admit that, but tell us then what is the necessity. I think we ought to be acquainted with what it is that has made this reorganisation necessary. Obviously if reorganisation has to take place too often there is a necessary failure to do the work properly under the last reorganisation scheme. I think it is a definite sign of weakness in the administration of the Defence Forces if reorganisation has to take place too frequently.

As to the point about the deputation to America, I do not think it has been said whether it is a deputation in respect of the Air Force only or not. Do I understand it is not?

It has nothing to do with the Air Force.

One of the newspaper announcements was to the effect that officers of the Air Force were to attempt to fly——

That is another question.

The officers who are going to attempt to fly are not going for the purpose of learning how to conduct an army school; they are going for adventure.

I hope they will come back too.

I suggest to the Minister, if these officers are valuable, that unless he sees a real purpose in the attempt to fly to America he should not allow it to be done. It should be left to those who have longer experience of flying and who have more officers to spare for that kind of expedition. I had a notion that this was part of the scheme for sending delegations to America for training purposes.

We do not want to lose them all at once.

Then this is another delegation. The Minister has not much faith in the projects of his Department, and he does not seem to know quite what the purpose is of this delegation to America, or what it is they are going to endeavour to learn. Apparently it is only at the suggestion stage, when no inquiries have yet been made of America as to whether they would be received, whether they would be trained and in what they will be trained. Surely the Minister can give us some more information than he has given. To say that he is not quite sure what they are going to learn, or what they are going to attempt to learn, is not enough, and the Dáil has a right, I think, to ask from the Minister for Defence some more information. Let us understand what they are going to risk these men for, especially if the Minister thinks they will not come back. They may prove themselves to be potential generals for the American Army. He had better not risk that visit if he is afraid they may not come back. I would press the Minister to give us some more information as to this project, what it is they are really going to seek, what particular class of training? Is it air training? Is it military training? Is it chemical warfare training? I know, as a matter of fact, that the Americans are specialising in the use of noxious gases. Is that the Department the Minister has in mind when he is sending these soldiers to America?

I had intended to ask the Minister the same question, because it does not seem clear what purpose these officers are going for, or what particular class of officers are going to be sent. If the Minister is sending officers over to America to get information as to the working of the Air Force there, it is only natural that he should send experienced flying officers, who will be able to obtain the required information. On the other hand, if the Minister is sending over untrained cadets, it would be impossible for these young fellows to acquire any useful information, and the only useful course would be to send them into the schools there and get them trained. The Minister mentioned Westpoint. If I remember aright a statement in the newspaper, they would not be taken at Westpoint.

I wish the Deputy would not pay so much attention to what he sees in the newspapers.

I would like if the Minister would contradict it. I would like that we should get clearer information as to the type of officer that is to be sent over—whether he is to be an experienced officer or whether he is to be an inexperienced cadet. I do not know whether this is the right time to raise a question about general army organisation——

The more general the question, the more it is in order.

I already suggested to the Minister that consideration should be given to the question of reorganising the Army on a territorial or militia basis. I think greater weight has been lent to that suggestion by the agreement with England with regard to the Boundary. That places us in a different position altogether with regard to the Army, and I think it will be generally acknowledged that the maintenance of a comparatively large standing army in Ireland is inadvisable. To a certain extent, I think it is really dangerous that an army without traditions, as naturally our Army must be, without the prospect of colonial fighting and without the prospect, as I hope, of home fighting, should be maintained. It will be difficult to keep that an efficient and effective army; it will be liable to get embroiled in political questions or to take too great an interest in political questions. We might, I think, have an assurance from the Minister that consideration is being given to the question of complete reorganisation of the Army, with a view to very considerable reduction in the present personnel and consequential reduction in the expenditure.

Mr. Heffernan is very anxious to get back to the militia stage in this country. I can assure him that if we send officers to America, we are not going to send cadets or inexperienced men. We will send some of the best officers we have in the Army, men who will be able to absorb any education they get or any instruction offered. I do not purpose, at the present time, going into the question as to what form the Army will take in the future. As far as I am personally concerned, I do favour the keeping of a standing Army, properly equipped and properly trained, in this country. If the Dáil, or the Government, think otherwise, it will be a matter for determination in the future, and it will come up when the permanent Army Act is introduced to the House.

So far as the question raised by Deputy Johnson is concerned regarding the aerial voyages to America, that has not had my serious consideration. It has come under my notice, but I have not considered it yet, and the rumours that appear in the Press day after day as to certain officers and certain machines flying to America are not correct. The matter is just as much in the air as the aeroplanes are in the air. That question does not come under review at the present time. Somebody started that hare, and it will take some time to run it to earth.

Deputy Esmonde wanted to know what class of training these officers are to get. The training they are to get is the training which is necessary in order that an army may function properly. Nobody can expect the young men in this country—who have no army experience except the experience they gained in our own Army during the last couple of years—to be in a position to train a modern army and keep it up-to-date. I think the experience of all countries—at least of all countries with new armies—is that they must seek information from older States on this question of military organisation. That is exactly what we are doing. Any time or money we spend in getting the necessary information and in getting our officers properly trained, will be well spent money if we retain an army. If we are to have an army, my intention is that it shall be equipped and trained as well as our moderate resources will permit.

How long is it contemplated that these officers will remain in America for training?

About twelve months.

Are they to be twelve months at Westpoint?

I cannot say whether they will attend more than one college in America. The arrangements have not been completed with the American Government. As a matter of fact, we have not yet had any official correspondence with the American Government on the subject. That is a matter that will have to be arranged before these men go out. If the American Government raise any objection about taking our officers or about giving them the facilities they will require, they will not be sent. But no official communication has taken place between this Government and the American Government.

Does the Minister know that the period of training at Westpoint for American officers is four years, and does he think that our officers will get satisfactorily trained in twelve months, when the course for American officers is four years?

I must admit that I do not know how long the training of an American officer takes.

The Minister's answer rather upsets things. We have had the definite statement in the Press confirmed by the Minister, that this visit is contemplated. But the Minister says there has been no communication from the Government here to the Government in America with regard to the visit. Is the whole suggestion informal and unauthorised? Surely, a matter of that kind is serious enough to warrant communication from the officials of one country to the officials of another before public announcements are made.

My Department is not responsible, nor am I responsible, for the public announcements. If announcements of a semi-official character appear in the newspapers, I do not think any Department of Government can be held responsible for them. I did not give any authority, nor did my Department give authority, to any person to publish the fact that this visit was contemplated, and no official correspondence between this Government and the American Government has taken place. There were certain informal conversations by people in America with officers of the American Army, as to whether facilities might be granted to our officers, but the matter has not gone beyond that. Since the question is not settled, I cannot be responsible for what appears in the Press regarding it.

The Minister has confirmed the statement in the Press.

I have not.

Question put and agreed to.
Title put and agreed to.
The Dáil went out of Committee.
Bill reported without amendment.
Report Stage ordered for 12th January.
Orders 8 and 9 discharged, to be taken on 12th January.
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