Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 29 Apr 1926

Vol. 15 No. 7

ESTIMATES FOR PUBLIC SERVICES. - THE ADJOURNMENT—APPOINTMENT OF TEACHER IN RATHBARRY (CO. CORK) SCHOOL.

Mr. T. MURPHY

I gave notice to-day that I would raise, on the adjournment, the question of the method of the appointment of a teacher in the Rathbarry National School, in the Co. Cork. On the face of it, perhaps the matter would be a small one, and it might be considered stretching my privileges as a Deputy to be raising it on the adjournment. But the principle involved is very important, and that is my excuse for raising it. It is a fact that there is a rule adopted by the Department of Education in regard to the appointment of teachers as principals of schools. That rule is that in schools with an attendance ranging from 50 to 90 the teacher appointed as principal must have five years' efficient service and experience, and that rule was adopted by the Department of Education as a result of representations made to them by the Irish National Teachers' Organisation. This is a rule that has been much appreciated by the I.N.T.O., as it affords the teachers very considerable protection. I may state that I have no personal reasons for raising this matter. I am simply concerned with the principle underlying the rule, and I may mention I am bringing the matter forward at the request of the teachers and their organisation.

The facts are briefly as follows:—In June, 1925, the teacher who taught in this school, resigned. A new teacher was afterwards appointed, subject to sanction from the Department of Education. From the documents before me here, and from the Minister's reply to-day, the attitude of the Department, as I understand it, is that exceptional circumstances prevailed, and led to the sanction of this appointment by the Department of Education. Now the excuse is that exceptional circumstances prevailed. My case is that there were no exceptional circumstances whatsoever, and in support of that argument I quote the fact that the average attendance in that school for the year in which the appointment was made, 1925, was higher than in any year for the previous twenty-one years, except one. For the period ending 30th June, 1925, the average was 70.4, with 98 pupils on the roll. The average for the other years compare favourably with that figure, except the year 1924. Now it is only to be expected that as a result of the Compulsory School Attendance Bill which will be law shortly, the average will be enhanced considerably. The Minister stated, to-day, in reply to my question, that there were other reasons. At least I gathered that from his reply. I am suggesting that there were not other reasons, and that the Department of Education embarked on a very serious departure from the rule in this particular case.

Professor THRIFT

took the Chair.

Mr. T. MURPHY

Some time ago this school was visited by an Inspector of the Department of Education who furnished a report of the case. On the day of his visit there were 69 pupils in the school. I thought that the natural result of this visit might be that this question would be re-opened, but it has not been re-opened so far. Hence my question, and my raising the matter now on the adjournment. I am suggesting to the Minister that if cases like this can happen fairly often the result would be that the rule would be discarded and would be more honoured in the breach than in the observance. I do suggest to the Department that that is an unfortunate attitude. Now the teachers value this rule very much. It affords them very considerable protection and it was inserted because of their representations and in view of the fact that sometimes when young men —very clever young men, some of them I have no doubt—came out of the Training College they were appointed principals of schools and placed over the heads of men who had been teaching for a number of years. If departures from this rule in future are to be sanctioned by the Department of Education the results will be very serious, for you will have favouritism rampant in the making of appointments. There may be cases, and I dare say there have, in fact, been cases where the rule has been departed from in instances where efficient teachers could not be obtained. That is very easy to understand and it is very reasonable. But that reason does not apply and has not been made in the case of this particular appointment. I do not wish to delay the House much longer with this matter but I would again appeal to the Minister to see that this rule is maintained, and I would ask him to give the teachers the protection that is assured them when this rule is maintained, and I would ask him in the future to maintain that attitude. A departure from this rule is a bad thing and it is particularly bad in view of the interest the Department of Education takes in the schools. If the rule is departed from in the future and if the agreement made between the Teachers' Organisation and the Department in the making of this rule is not to be treated as a scrap of paper then I say the proper course for the Minister is to have the case re-opened and the rule adhered to in future.

Mr. T. O'CONNELL

I would like to say just one or two words on this matter. Deputy Murphy has stressed perhaps overmuch, the fact that the observance of this rule and its adoption at first would make for the protection of the teachers. That is not the aspect in which I would like to view the rule. The rule was not made in the interests of the teachers. It was made rather in the interest of efficient and sound work being done in the schools. It was felt that a man who had just left the training college should not be put in charge of a large important school, but that they should get experience as assistants or in smaller schools before they would be put in charge of large schools. I would like to stress the point that it should be a matter of general policy in the Department that once they came to the conclusion that a rule is a good one, that there should be as few departures from the rule as possible. When the Minister will have more acquaintance with the practical working of his Department than he has at present, he will find that in all probability he will be pestered from many quarters asking him to depart from the rules and regulations that have been arrived at after considerable experience. There is a kind of feeling amongst a great many people in the country, amongst the teachers to a large extent, and even amongst the managers to a larger extent, that it does not matter about a rule being there—that if you put up a good enough fight with the Department of Education, you will get your way, and you can have the rule departed from.

I would like that the Minister would adopt a different policy, and while a rule should be made as wide and as general as possible to meet the generality of cases, the departures from it should be as few as possible. There will always be exceptional cases arising, but the Minister and his Department should, in such cases, take very great trouble in order to satisfy themselves that exceptional circumstances are in fact present before a departure is made from the rule. I think the burden of Deputy Murphy's complaint in this particular case, and I happen to know something about it, too, is that sufficient care was not taken to see whether the conditions as to which representations were undoubtedly made, were in fact present. I think it has turned out, from further investigation, that these conditions were not present. I could very well understand, if teachers with the experience required by the rule were not forthcoming, and if the conditions required were not present, that a case might be made for a departure from the rule. But no such circumstances existed here, and I think it is advisable that we should have a pronouncement from the Minister on the matter. Complaints undoubtedly do exist, that this rule, which is acknowledged by everybody to be a sound rule, has been departed from in several instances within the last 12 months or two years. For that reason I say it would be well to have a pronouncement that the cases in which it would be departed from in the future would be very exceptional, and that exceptional circumstances should be proved fully and clearly to the satisfaction of the Department concerned before there is any such departure.

Mr. O'DONOVAN

I just wish to say a word in this case. I understood from the reply of the Minister for Education to-day that it was because of representations made by the manager that this appointment was made. I have a knowledge of this parish, and I know that for the past 14 years the population of the parish has been decreasing. Fourteen years ago the population was about 1,400. It has dwindled down to something under 1,000 to-day. I do not, therefore, wonder that the manager of the school made such a representation to the Department of Education. I believe it is not a good thing to depart from the principle of the rules, but I would like to have it made clear that the representations made by the manager were absolutely correct. I think it speaks well for the efficiency of the teacher that the average attendance at the school has gone up since the appointment of the new teacher there a year ago.

MINISTER for EDUCATION (Professor O'Sullivan)

In my reply to Deputy Murphy I indicated that the manager brought forward not merely—

Mr. T. MURPHY

The Minister will understand that I am making no personal complaint against the manager.

Professor O'SULLIVAN

I quite understand that. I indicated in my reply to-day that the manager did not merely state that there was every probability of a decline in the attendance of pupils at this school in the future, and that that might be expected, but he also brought forward a number of reasons in support of that. I referred incidentally to these to-day. One is the particular reason now referred to by Deputy O'Donovan. But there are a number of other reasons, and some of these reasons actually did operate, though it must be confessed—and here Deputy Murphy is on sound ground— with by no means the result expected, or at least to the extent expected. Undoubtedly the attendance was expected to fall below 50, but it did not fall below 50. The reasons put up for that seemed quite convincing and plausible. One was that already referred to, and the other was the fact the manager of the school called attention to. In this he was borne out afterwards. Several months after the appointment we sent down, in connection with another appointment in the same school, one of our inspectors who held the special inspection referred to by Deputy Murphy. There was a lower birth rate in that parish and there was also the fact that the attendance at the school had been kept up, as I might call it, artificially, owing to the fact that Confirmation in that particular school had been continuously postponed for reasons which people in the diocese of Ross are familiar with. Therefore, the number of pupils had been kept on beyond the normal time. It was expected that for these reasons, and owing to the closing up of the Bartyes mines and the evacuation of the coast-guard station, that the attendance would be adversely affected. In most of the years between 1914 and 1919 the average attendance was under 50. It was expected, and there were reasonable grounds for expecting, that it would again fall below 50. It was on these grounds that the Department fell in with the manager's suggestion, that the teacher who was in the school might be promoted to the principalship. That is so far as the post is concerned.

The school cannot, according to the Inspector, be described as one of the most important and largest in South Cork. It is a school that, on the whole, in the future will have to struggle to keep the attendance up to 50. Apart from the School Attendance Act I think there is no reason why it should not be kept up to 50. That is as regards the past. As to the future, I cannot see we can re-open the case. The teacher was sanctioned and duly appointed. That being so, I think it would be inadvisable, and would raise many more serious problems than have now been raised, if we were trying to solve the difficulty by re-opening the whole question again, and practically dismissing the teacher, or at least removing him from that particular position. I think that is out of the question. Another matter is, I think, the rules should be kept as much as possible. Circumstances will arise where departure may be necessary, but I hope the circumstances will seldom arise. I think, on the whole, our observance of the rules is becoming better year by year, and compares very favourably with the observance of these rules by the previous Commissioners.

Mr. T. O'CONNELL

I agree. That is what has created the bad habit.

Professor O'SULLIVAN

I know, and I hope an occasion for a departure from these rules will not frequently arise either in the case of this particular rule or any other rule.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.45 p.m. until 12 o'clock, Friday.