Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 25 May 1926

Vol. 15 No. 19

ESTIMATES FOR PUBLIC SERVICES. - VOTE 56—OFFICE OF THE MINISTER FOR INDUSTRY AND COMMERCE.

Professor O'SULLIVAN

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £251,777 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta. 1927, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Tionnscail agus Tráchtála, maraon le moltóir agus Cúirteanna Réiteoirí; Síntiúsaí do Chiste an Díomhaointis agus do Scéimeanna Speisialta; Iocaíochtanna le Cumainn fé sna hAchtanna Arachais Díomhaointis, chun Labour Exchanges Act, 1909; Táillí agus Costaisí na nDochtúirí Réitigh fén Workmen's Compensation Act, 1906; Táillí do Mháinleagha Deimhniúcháin fén Factory and Workshops Act, 1901; Táillí agus Costaisí fén Trade Boards Acts, 1909 and 1918; Táillí agus Costaisí fén Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, agus fén Gas Regulation Act, 1920; agus fén Weights and Measures Act, 1889; agus fós Costaisí mar gheall ar Chóghléasa Idirnáisiúnta an Oibreachais (Cumann na Náisiun) maraon le Deontas i gCabhair.

That a sum not exceeding £251,777 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1927, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, including Umpire and Courts of Referees, Contributions to the Unemployment Fund and to Special Schemes, Payments to Associations under the Unemployment Insurance Acts, for advances to work-people under the Labour Exchanges Act, 1909; Fees and Expenses of Medical Referees under the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1906; Fees to Certifying Surgeons under the Factory and Workshops Act, 1901; Fees and Expenses under the Trade Boards Acts, 1909 and 1918; Fees and Expenses under the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1919, and the Gas Regulation Act, 1920, and the Weights and Measures Act, 1889; also expenses in connection with the International Labour Organisation (League of Nations) including a Grant in Aid.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I want to call attention at the beginning to one entry which was discovered to be put down in an inaccurate way on the Vote of the Ministry of Justice. The same difficulty arises here. It is on page 218 of those Estimates in sub-head A in reference to a certain branch of the Department, "the proportion of the cost of messengers, cleaners and protective force in Government Buildings." The error, such as it was, was magnified out of all proportion. The words "and protective force" should have been italicised to show that the force no longer exists. It is clear that the difference between £312 this year and £723 for last year shows definitely that no money was being asked for the payment of these forces.

I should like to make a clear distinction at the beginning of this Vote as between the different sub-heads and to apportion the expenditure between one large item and all other items. It will be noticed that the net total given for this Vote for this year is £351,777. Deputies should keep that figure in mind as the net total, and make the following deduction: the Vote under sub-head L, contributions to the Unemployment Fund and to Special Schemes, £225,000, and add to that the sum set aside for the Employment branch, a total of £98,259, and make the additions I will mention to the total of these two. These items I am going to speak of represent in part an estimate of the amount of the various sub-heads debited to some matters in connection with unemployment insurance. Some of them are clearly for that purpose, and for no other purpose. It was estimated that two-thirds of the expenditure to be incurred under D is due to matters arising out of the administration of the Unemployment Insurance Acts. That is to say, two-thirds of that was £3,333. About two-thirds of sub-head C has also to be debited to the same cause, that is, a sum of £1,266. Again, two-thirds of the telegrams and telephones costs has to be taken, or a sum of £1,620. G is obviously in its entirety for the purpose of the Unemployment Insurance Acts. For that a sum of £1,500 must also be added in. The same remarks will apply to H— to M the full payment of £350, and to N the full payment of £150. In addition it is reckoned, but here there is less certainty, that one-tenth of the work of the statistics branch comes from the same quarter. That is, about £2,967 would be put into this addition. Two-thirds of the work in connection with the Finance and Establishment Branch are also to be debited to the question of unemployment. There is a Finance Branch, which is £10,500, and there is an item given as Establishment, £19,043. The Claims and Records is entirely unemployment. It is £19,852, and about £19,700, excluding Claims and Record Office. That is £39,500 between the two.

That would mean that there is from this Vote a sum of about £374,271 due to matters in connection with the Unemployment Insurance Acts. From that must be taken Appropriations-in-Aid: sub-head O (a) the whole of that £107,000; (b) the whole of the £125; and in (f), "Miscellaneous Receipts," £45 out of the £50 may be taken. From this Vote of £374,271 you must deduct Appropriations-in-Aid amounting to £107,170, so that the nett cost of the work and Exchanges in connection with the Unemployment Insurance Acts amounts to £267,100. If that be taken from the total Vote of £351,777, it leaves a sum of £84,676, which is the amount of the Vote for services other than those in connection with the Unemployment Insurance Acts. I can go into details again if any questions arise as to the appropriateness of the apportionment of any or all of that money in reference to the Unemployment Insurance Vote. It therefore comes to this, that £84,676 is the Vote being asked for for purposes other than those of the Unemployment Insurance Acts. I propose to take the work of the Department under the headings of the different branches, namely: Transport and Marine, Commerce and Technical, Industry and Statistics, and to show exactly what is the work that is being carried out which is estimated to cost the country this year £84,676. The Transport and Marine Branch is the first that calls for consideration, and I propose, in the briefest possible way, to give a general survey of the work done in the past financial year by this branch. It will arise under a different heading in connection with the general railway legislation and administration work in connection with the Railways Act, 1924. There fell to this Department the work of preparing and publishing the financial returns of the railway companies for the year 1924, and the returns in connection with railway accidents and casualties, which included the inspecting officer's inquiries and his reports on such accidents. There was attendance before and assisting at the Railway Tribunal in connection with the schemes for amalgamation and absorption; standard terms and conditions of the carriage of merchandise; regulations for addressing merchandise; forms of schedules, etc; and revision of classification of merchandise.

Figures had to be complied relating to the average nett revenue of the several companies comprising the Great Southern Railways Company for the years 1911-12-13, and these had to be submitted with reports thereon to the Railway Tribunal. The Castlecomer, Wolfhill, and Arigna colliery railways had to have their accounts and workings investigated, and certain matters, of which I spoke on the other Vote had to be inquired into in connection with claims for the acquisition of land in connection with Castlecomer and Wolfhill. A matter which was raised by a Deputy on the other Votes was also the subject of inquiry by the Transport Section, that is to say, investigation and attendance in respect of matters in connection with the baronial guaranteed railways. The financial position of the Great Southern Railways Company had to be examined and a report presented. There was an inquiry into the accounts and working of the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Company, including the three Government railways worked by that company, and in connection with which there may, and possibly will, be an additional Vote required for the purpose of carrying on these Government-owned railways worked by the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway Company. Claims for malicious damage on railways had to be investigated and reports made to the Compensation Commission. Work arose in connection with liquidation accounts arising under the British Government control of the Irish railway system. Agreements under certain sections of the Railways Act had to be examined into and then collated for the purposes of the Railway Tribunal. There was the ordinary general correspondence regarding transport charges, respecting which complaints have been forwarded by Deputies, and train facilities, in connection with which there is a great volume of correspondence, and, moreover, all sorts of miscellaneous inquiries can be made.

On the marine side, there was an investigation into various matters in connection with harbours, docks and piers, the receipt and examination of the annual accounts and sinking fund returns of various harbour authorities. There had then to be submitted to the Rates Advisory Committee appointed in 1925 under the Harbours, Docks and Piers (Temporary Increase of Charges) Act, 1920, applications for powers to increase the statutory charges. These applications came from Waterford, Galway, Wexford, and Youghal. Public inquiries were held in connection with the first three authorities. These inquiries had to be attended by representatives of the Department. An order was issued in the case of Waterford, and orders have been recommended in the case of Galway and Wexford, and the preparation of these is in hands. In the fourth case, that of Youghal, the matter is still before the Rates Advisory Committee. Work had also to be undertaken in connection with the Dundalk Harbour and Port Act of 1925, and a report had to be prepared and presented to the Oireachtas dealing with the Limerick Harbour Bill. There was then a public inquiry into the application for a Provisional Order from the Tralee and Fenit Pier and Harbour Commissioners on which a report had to be procured and considered. That application, incidentally, was not acceded to. Further to this there was general work in connection with the appointment of harbour commissioners and auditors, and miscellaneous applications for financial assistance.

The annual accounts and reports of accidents in connection with tramways had also to be undertaken. The examination of these accounts was a matter that lasted for a considerable portion of the year. The Dublin United Tramway Company's powers, and the Cork Tramways statutory charging powers, had been increased under the 1920 Act, so that consequently close attention had to be given to the financial results of these allowed increases and to the financial position of these undertakings. The Sligo and Belmullet steamer service, which was only taken over by this Department late last year, caused a certain amount of work which I detailed on the last Vote. Inquiries had to be instituted to see what were the effects, if any, in the working of that steam service, and of the alternative methods to provide the people of Belmullet with ready access to Sligo, and some method of getting supplies from Sligo. The investigation that I spoke of on Friday last is still pending. What the result will be I cannot forecast. This was a service that was taken over from the office of Public Works. When taken over it was found to be running on terms that it was felt the Oireachtas would not readily submit to for many years to come. Consequently an immediate inquiry was instituted, but, as I have said, the result has not yet been ascertained.

Then there is the matter of inland navigation. Certain matters fell for consideration, such as the proposed abandonment of the Ulster canal; the proposed abandonment of navigation on the Ballinamore and Ballyconnell canal; the third item I hesitate to mention, because I fear it is going to give rise to remarks outside the scope of what I intend. There had to be certain works by the transport branch in relation to the improvement of the Barrow navigation which I would distinguish from the Barrow drainage. In addition there is the question of the development of transport services on the Royal Canal. This would represent the ordinary administrative work of the officers of this Department, but there was, of course, work in connection with what is put down in the separate Vote, Vote 59, which we have just discussed —marine service. The differentiation which was made with regard to the two Votes is that Vote 59 deals with the out-officers in connection with this marine service. There is, of course, borne on the main Vote—Vote 56—the salaries of the headquarters people in connection with that.

There has been under consideration for many months, one might almost say for years, a piece of legislation which has been found to be much heavier than ever was anticipated, and that is the question of merchant shipping. There is some hope that that legislation may be ready for presentation in the autumn or in the winter of this year. It entailed a considerable amount of work on certain people in the Department and finally led to the appointment of extra help in the draftsman's office so as to have that legislation brought reasonably near. Legislation has been promised from time to time, and always without any proper forecast of what the burden of the work was. It was only recently that the full amount of work necessitated was really appreciated, and steps were taken to meet a further delay that seemed to be involved when the full burden of the work was realised. I cannot even yet say when that legislation will be ready, but it is certainly engaging a great deal of attention and is causing a tremendous amount of labour to those concerned with it.

Sitting suspended at 6.30 and resumed at 7.15,

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

in the Chair.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

The work of the Commerce and Technical Branch is the next in order of these sub-divisions on Vote 56. It has a variety of work to do, and could be best described under the headings of the various Acts which have to be administered. The Assurance Companies Act of 1909 throws a certain amount of work on the officials of this section. The accounts of 76 companies were furnished and had to be examined during the course of the year, and it had to be seen that the cash securities as required by the Act had been deposited with the court. A sum of £880,000 was deposited by 43 companies during the year, and in addition to that there was the annual statutory report presented lately to the Oireachtas. Under the Companies Acts from 1890 to 1924 various applications may be made through the Department to me, and these have to be dealt with. These arise under various heads, such as an application for a change of name, permission to omit the name of a director, the appointment of auditors, etc., and then there were other applications under various sections of these Acts where various small concessions were sought. About 20 of these applications were received and dealt with during the course of the year.

Offences then had to be looked to, and where necessary, prosecutions instituted. During the year 1925 about 300 companies were reported by the registrar as having failed in some provisions of these Acts. That matter had to be taken up with all of these, and in about four cases the State Solicitor was applied to and prosecutions put forward. In addition, there is the annual statutory report required under these Acts, which was prepared and presented. There was an Act passed by the Oireachtas about two years ago called the Companies (Reconstitution of Records) Act. This applied to about 2,000 companies whose records had been destroyed in the Custom House fire. Under the operations of that Act, about the end of the year 1925, the records of every company then on the register had been restored.

Then there was the Industrial Insurance Act and other Acts. The main work of the Department under this heading can be very briefly described, but the brevity of the description in no way corresponds to the amount of work done by the branch in that connection. That description may simply be put in this way: that the Departmental Committee's Report had to be examined, conferences held with the people concerned, and the consideration of a draft Bill taken up. The position with regard to that draft Bill is somewhat unsettled at the moment. A Bill actually was prepared and is in draft. Its presentation is going to be delayed until the autumn, and by that time there may have to be a discussion as to whether it is right to go ahead with the old system, about which the Committee did not seem to be very enthusiastic, and the consideration of alternatives seemed to them to have been ruled out by their terms of reference. That matter will have to be discussed here if and when that draft Bill is introduced, or in the alternative, a discussion that may arise if it is decided not to have a draft Bill is, is it wise to perpetuate a system about which nobody seems to be enthusiastic, and about which there is tremendous doubt as to the control that can in various circumstances be exercised? If it is decided to perpetuate the old system, and improve it as much as possible, there falls for consideration the changes that will be necessary in the law to ensure better safeguards in the interests of policy-holders. That is a matter I do not propose to speak much on at the moment, because it is still subject to inquiry, and may necessitate reference back to that Committee, or reference of a wider matter altogether to another Committee for their consideration.

There is then a series of Acts limiting partnership, Money Lenders' Act. Registration of Business Names Act, and Newspaper Libel Registration Act. Their administration rests with this Department. One can only say a variety of matters arose in this connection during the course of the year, and they were dealt with by this Branch. In the matter of supplying commercial information to trade representatives abroad, and to the office of the High Commissioner, particulars were sent in respect to about 200 firms interested in various products, such as, textiles, hosiery, hides, skins, bacon, hams, fish, cereals, etc. These particulars had to be and were communicated to exporters in the Free State likely to be interested. In addition there was the other side of that which had to be attended to, inquiries by Sáorstat exporters who desired to be put in touch with agents and buyers abroad and in Great Britain. In connection with the sale of commodities, about 70 firms put inquiries to us of that nature, and information was supplied so far as it was possible. Information was then collected as to the condition of foreign markets, and as to import duties, and there occasionally arises an inquiry as to the standing of firms abroad, which is a matter that has to be dealt with according to the circumstances in which the inquiry comes. The administration of the Merchandise (Marks) Acts did not call for a great deal of trouble during the year. Some two dozen matters arose in connection with these Acts, matters dealing with the use of Irish names on foreign goods where complaints had to be investigated, and inquiries made as to the markings required on imported and foreign goods.

Then there were a similar series of inquiries on the matter of the detention of goods by the Customs authorities, and representations had to be considered when received from certain Saorstát firms to the effect that imported goods should be made to bear the name of the country of origin. In that connection, Bills had recently to be introduced into the British parliament, and reports of various committees set up by Great Britain and Northern Ireland had to be examined with a view to drafting here legislation more suitable to the conditions in the Saorstát.

The patents, trades marks and copyright matters are somewhat at a standstill here owing to the delay that has been caused in the passage of the Industrial and Property Protection Bill through the Oireachtas. A Second Reading was given to that Bill about this time last year, but a variety of matters intervened to prevent its consideration as rapidly as we could have wished. There was, first of all, reference to a Joint Committee to make recommendations before the Committee Stage. It took some time to get that committee established here. The question of the Seanad election then intervened to prevent the other House making its selections to that committee prior to the result of the elections being known. It was then found rather difficult to get people who were sufficiently interested to serve on the committee and certain changes in the personnel were necessitated with regard to those chosen by the Dáil. However, a committee got working before Easter and that Select Committee's deliberations have pretty well concluded. There is one other meeting to be held, at which the committee's recommendations will be put in final order, and that Bill will then be reported back to this House to make progress in the ordinary way. Without such a Bill all that we have been able to do with applications in regard to patents, trades marks and copyright matters was to have them filed. Over 4,000 such applications were received and duly registered in the Department. Over 1,700 of these were applications for patents, and 2,200 odd were for trades marks and in respect of designs. Certain particulars have to be taken out, and each application is indexed with a view to having action expedited when the Industrial and Commercial Property Protection Bill becomes law. That refers to new applications and the filing of new applications. In addition to that, there was a considerable amount of work—correspondence and other matters—to be dealt with in conjunction with the other ordinary general matters that arise dealing with patents, trades marks and designs.

I may say, in regard to the Bill that is at present before that Joint Committee, that the delay has not been at all to the detriment of the Bill, as there has been a considerable amount of information acquired in the meantime through international conferences and through other conferences here at home as to certain improvements that were considered desirable in connection with the Bill. Most of these have been considered and I do not think I am breaking any secret when I say that most of them have been accepted by the Joint Committee of the two Houses and will, in due course, come before the Dáil for the Dáil's acceptance. Through this branch also detailed information is available for publication in the "Trade Journal," and information is supplied to inquirers in the ordinary course. In addition to that, certain communiques are issued occasionally to the Press throughout the country.

It will be noticed through the details of the Commerce and Technical Branch that there is a technical officer dealing with gas, electricity, weights and measures. There is a verification officer, a chief gas examiner as well as a gas referee. Those really would indicate what used to be known as the Power Branch of this Ministry. The work that the Power Section has dealt with has been, to a certain extent, held up by the reactions of the Shannon scheme, because it was not considered advisable that there should be leave given to expend substantial amounts on generating systems, seeing that these would not be required within a short period. Accordingly the proposals that came before the Commissioners for new electricity orders had to be postponed until it was discovered that the promoters of these orders, or the applicants for these orders, would so arrange them as to fit in with the general national electricity scheme in a few years' time. The general rule has been that expenditure on generating plants from this year forward cannot be taken into account in any future policy dealing with the amalgamation of small undertakings. Possibly due to that fact there was only one new electricity order made during the past year, the one issued in respect of Blackrock. It was an enabling order to authorise the local council to transfer its rights and obligations as authorised suppliers of electricity. I have referred to certain delays with regard to new orders. Of course, in many minor matters the powers of the Ministry have been exercised in connection with the Electricity Supply Acts. Applications have been received for sanction to raise loans for the purpose of extending some of the existing undertakings and for the extension of distributing mains beyond the area of supply originally contemplated, or originally authorised.

The administration of the Gas Acts was carried out in a great many matters of ordinary routine. There were no special developments, however, in connection with the gas industry during the past year, and no new special gas orders were applied for.

The operation of the Weights and Measures Acts has made certain substantial progress. The arrears which had accumulated owing to the suspension, for almost four years, of the work of the weights and measures inspectors outside the Dublin area have now been cleared up in most of the areas in the Free State, and the application of statutory regulations has been tightened up considerably.

Mr. DAVIN

Is that in respect of administration by the Guards?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Yes. The Commissioner of the Gárda Síochána found it necessary to increase the number of ex-officio inspectors to carry out inspections under the Weights and Measures Act on behalf of the local authorities. An examination was held about February for a number of Gárda Sergeants who had undergone training in the special duties required. The special subjects required for this examination were made more comprehensive, and the practical tests were definitely much more difficult than they had been previously at any other examination held under the Weights and Measures Act in this country. Nevertheless, out of a total of 32 who sat for this examination, 22 were passed as fully qualified. The ordinary work of the section is well enough known in this connection. Any patents for weighing and measuring instruments have to be certified either for general or special use after examination to see if they comply with certain conditions. In the past 12 months somewhere over 30 new types of such instruments were submitted for examination. A few of these, not more than two, were rejected. A certain number are still undergoing tests.

One special point which arose for consideration was the matter of petrol pumps that are becoming such common objects nowadays. Special tests were imposed on these within a radius of about 50 miles of Dublin, but it appears to be necessary to have legislation to allow for the special supervision that will be necessary with regard to this particular type of measuring instrument. Certain examinations were also held as to standard gas holders and standard gas meters, and an examination of the milk weighing machines used in creameries, to see if any more uniform use could not be obtained of some approved design of a strict type of machine. There was also work thrown on this particular branch by the Standardisation Order with regard to bottles issued by the Minister for Justice under the Intoxicating Liquor Act of 1924. The new regulations were made in February and the operation of the Weights and Measures Act and the application of this Order is now proceeding.

The industry branch has a variety of activities in contemplation, which again I can set out under certain rather well defined headings. The principal work to be done by this Department is work in connection with the Trade Loans Guarantee Act. A tremendous number of applications were received in connection with the Trade Loans Act. Some of them were quite clearly outside the scope of the Act. Certain others were withdrawn by the applicants themselves. Ninety-four were finally considered by the Advisory Committee set up under the Act, of which 28 were recommended and 52 rejected, 3 still being under consideration by the Advisory Committee. That would cover applications from the beginning of the period until the end of last month, but it has to be noted that the Advisory Committee was not established for some time after the date of the coming into operation of the Act and no guarantee was in fact given until after 1st April, 1925.

Mr. DAVIN

Could the Minister say if figures are available stating the amount of the guarantees in the case of the 28 passed?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

The amount, say, where the guarantee is actually given?

Mr. DAVIN

Yes.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

There have been six cases in which guarantees have been actually given, and the amounts are: £28,500; £11,100; £8,000; £50,000; £3,500; and £6,000. These are where the guarantees have been actually given. They are in various stages of completion on account of the operations of the Act.

There are then ten cases which have passed the Advisory Committee and the two Departments concerned, where certain legal formalities are still due and the amounts there would be about £110,000 all told. There are six others which have passed certain of the hurdles prior to legal formalities being entered on, and which cannot yet be said to be sanctioned under the Act. There are six of these cases, and the amount of money they would represent would be very big. It would come to almost £400,000. There were certain others which were recommended, but where the application was withdrawn.

One of the earliest operations of this branch was to establish Advisory Committees, in various group industries in the country, so as to have these meet for the purpose of getting in touch with the various industries so that information might be given by them to the Department and received by them from the Department. There are about thirty-seven of these committees, and there can be said to have been about fifty general meetings of these during the year. There was a lot of minor meetings. You might have a group of firms, and a group of allied industries associated in factories; individual firms and various subdivisions of that group might come to the Department for certain information or to give certain information. There were about fifty meetings held during the year, outside these smaller meetings. During 1925-26 what might be described as Conciliation Conferences to the number of forty-nine were held, and settlements were reached in twenty-five cases. In a number of other cases settlements were eventually arrived at, following proposals made at the conferences, but the settlement was not reached at the conferences except in twenty-five cases.

With regard to work under the Factories and Workshops Act, as between factories, workshops, certain premises, warehouses, and certain other institutions which fell to be visited under Sections 5 and 6 of the Act, there were almost 9,000 of the type which necessitated visits under the Act, and almost 6,000 of these were visited in the year. Roughly there was a 70 per cent. visitation, taking it on the number of visits for the number of establishments that might call for these inspections. That is in the calendar year 1925, which was the basis on which the statistics were compiled. That shows a very definite advance on what had been done previously. About one-third of the establishments had been visited in 1923, and about one-half in 1924, so that this shows a very considerable advance on the two earlier years. In addition to that inspections had to be made under the Trade Boards Act. In the calendar year there were over 2,600 of these inspections. The work of administering the Shops Act and the Workmen's Compensation Acts also falls to this branch, and in the case of Workmen's Compensation there has been proceeding a Departmental inquiry during the greater part of the financial year. A considerable amount of evidence has been heard and a very big number of meetings held. The Committee is at present completing its report. A forecast of that report was recently published, but it is as likely to be as inaccurate as most of those forecasts are.

The inspection of mines and quarries is carried on through an inspector appointed under the Mines and Quarries Act and under the supervision of a geologist who is also responsible for investigating and advising on the many projects from time to time brought before the Department in regard to the development of mineral resources. This branch is also responsible for the work that arises at the International Labour Conference under the auspices of the League of Nations. It supplied a certain number of delegates that represented the Free State at meetings in Geneva during the last three years.

I do not intend to deal with the employment branch in any detail at this moment. I have set aside certain figures showing the estimated amount of expenditure that has to be apportioned in regard to the question of employment. The headquarters office and the out-stations offices form part of that division in the Estimate, and if there is any point arising in regard to them later it can be dealt with.

The statistics branch is one in regard to which questions generally arise and I have got certain detailed information as to the subjects upon which statistics have been complied. It must be remembered that the work of this branch was taken over from the Department of Agriculture which previously dealt with a very limited amount of matter. It is quite clear from the Estimates that the numbers connected with the statistics branch have grown and, consequently, the expenditure has increased.

A point was raised here in regard to what public advantage was being reaped from the extra officials serving in this branch, and the extra expenditure of money involved. I had to ask for a certain amount of patience, point ing out that the whole question of the proper establishment of this branch was under consideration and, until the Statistics Bill was introduced and passed, it was not possible to forecast with any degree of accuracy what the work of the branch in future was likely to be, as observed by the information issued to the public. The Statistics Bill has since become an Act, and the branch more or less knows where it stands.

This year there has been a further upset because of the fact that the census of population had to be taken.

Preparations had been made to take a census of production also. That census of production was not taken this year, but it will be taken as soon as possible. The census of population occupied to a very big extent the attention of the statistics branch, and this has prevented the publication of additional matter; but there has been publication of some additional matter through the "Trade Journal," and that will increase from month to month, and in the end there will be given to the public, in as much detail as possible, all the information the public seems to display an interest in, or the information that some Deputies appear to be interested in as having a bearing upon legislation or projected legislation.

Mr. BAXTER

When will the census of production be taken?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

It should have been taken this year, but it was ruled out by the census of population. Most likely it will be taken next year. If Deputies desire, I can give here an indication of the subjects upon which statistics have been compiled. Most Deputies are familiar with the import and export returns. All those statistics are given in the returns that are properly prepared and placed in the hands of Deputies. There are inquiries made into the number and description of live stock exported to Britain and the Isle of Man. Weekly, monthly, and annual statements in regard to these exports are printed and published. Then there is a condensed return published each month from particulars furnished for the official import and export list, excluding parcels post. There is a detailed quarterly report of all exports and imports, including parcels post, printed and published, and at the end of the year-during the last quarter-there is published a review of the year's trade. There was a change made— Deputies know about it and I am aware they have complained—in the way in which these monthly returns have been published. It was suggested to me that we should return to the printed instead of the stencilled publication; but again the question of expense came in. It was recognised that the stencilled returns were not the clearest, and an attempt was made to improve the form and have the stencilled matter made more clear. It was not, however, considered advisable to go back to the printed form.

With regard to shipping, the quarterly trade report contains statistics as to the number and tonnage of vessels entering and clearing Free State ports. These are received monthly, and the quarterly details of the monthly totals are published. There are, in addition, compiled monthly returns of the number of passengers arriving at and departing from Free State ports, including the number of persons arriving at or departing from Free State ports from or to any ports outside Europe. An attempt is made to distinguish migrants from ordinary travellers. These are published in the "Trade Journal" and copies are furnished to the Board of Trade and to the League of Nations.

In the matter of agriculture, there are collected statistics in regard to the numbers of live-stock and the produce of crops. These are collected by Gárda Síochána enumerators. Printed statements are published in regard to the quantity of crops, and comparisons are made with the corresponding period of the previous year. There are also printed statements relating to the total yield of crops. There are stencilled returns as to the number of pigs secured by bacon-curers, and particulars touching on live-stock exports are issued to the Press. There is a weekly stencilled report made in regard to the Dublin cattle and sheep market, and there are monthly stencilled reports containing details of fairs and markets in the country. There is a quarterly return of fairs and markets published in the Journal of the Department of Agriculture.

Deputies will have noticed, that in answer to questions put in the Dáil, statements have been issued covering agricultural produce statistics for the whole of Ireland for each year from 1881 to 1925, and for the Free State from 1911 to 1925. As regards prices, there are prepared daily stencilled reports of prices and supplies. While I am on the matter of prices I may mention that a report is published containing the retail prices existing, and also containing statistics—index figures—touching on the cost of living.

Railway statistics take the form of operations compiled and issued monthly in the form of stencilled reports to the railway companies and individual members of the public, and other statistics are compiled for inclusion in the annual printed returns of the railway companies. There are compilations made weekly and fortnightly and monthly from the Labour Exchange offices with regard to labour and these are issued officially for administrative purposes. Last year there was prepared by the branch a very big amount of statistical matter, extracted from the Census of 1911, in regard to Irish-speaking people and non-Irish speaking people, for the use of the Gaelteacht Commission. This branch acted as agents for the Commission; it provided forms and instructions and circulars for the Civic Guards, who returned the number of persons in any area speaking Irish. Afterwards the branch compiled certain returns from these statistics for the Gaelteacht Commission itself.

The census of population was undertaken on the 18th April last. That involved a tremendous amount of preparatory work, in devising the forms, and in preparation as to how the questions should be put, and as to what was the most suitable manner as to getting the information required. In addition to that, instructions had to be prepared and issued to all those appointed as enumerators in the various districts and a certain amount of publicity and guidance was given, or undertaken, by the preparation of posters.

Mr. JOHNSON

Is the Minister able to give us an estimate as to when the first returns will be available?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

In about a month.

Mr. DAVIN

Are the papers all collected yet?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I have heard many arguments about that, and I am having that matter officially gone into. I was told that the last return was collected on Thursday of last week; I understood that was the latest. I did not know that there were any forms not yet collected. There are two points there. If it were simply a matter of sending round enumerators and telling them to take up forms, that could be done very speedily. But if you give them strict instructions to see, to the best of their ability, that the papers are filled in properly, and that the forms are, as far as can be seen upon the surface, fairly accurate returns and that the questions have been properly attended to-that is work in which it will take a much longer time to collect the papers. In this matter it is far better to give instructions, in details, rather than to have the collectors going round, and simply collecting up the forms. If you have a lot of scamped census returns, that would entail a very considerable amount of labour afterwards, if enumerators that have gone round have to be sent back again to the houses to see if the missing information could not be supplied later.

Deputy Cooper raised the matter, once, as to the time that was spent in the collection of those forms. On the whole, I think it is better to have the forms dealt with by the enumerators in a detailed way, and have some care taken in the collection of them, rather than to have further to approach householders. When I said a month, or when I made the statement that in about a month the first collected information with regard to the census might be ready, I said a month, under the impression that all the forms had been collected. If the collection is not yet completed, then the month may not run from to-day. I spoke under the impression that the forms had been collected.

There has been a considerable amount of preparatory work already done in connection with the proposed census of industrial production for the year 1926. Preparatory work was also undertaken in connection with the census of agricultural production for the twelve months, April, 1926, to May, 1927. Preparatory matter would include the getting together of lists of producers from whom returns will be required, and the nature of the inquiry to be first made in agricultural production is under consideration. Modifications have been included in the forms to be used in the collection of agricultural statistics of the present year. There are certain other minor particulars which will have to be collated afterwards as to the general census of industrial and agricultural production, and these are being obtained throughout the year.

There are a certain number of miscellaneous statistics that have been collected in connection with the Workmen's Compensation and certain Banking statistics. From time to time individual firms and individuals make application for returns of particulars of certain articles imported, and these are compiled and furnished to the firms or the individuals. Returns have to be furnished every month, in accordance with commitments, to the League of Nations, the International Labour Office, the International Institute of Agriculture, and the International Institute of Statistics. Further to that there have been a great many contributions from this branch to the "Irish Trade Journal." The Finance and Establishment Branch I think explains itself. It may seem a big item, but it is to be noted that Part 2 is included in Finance and Establishment Branch. That is to say, under this particular head are collected the estimated payments to all the typists, messengers, cleaners, etc. They are all collected under the head of Finance and Establishment Branch.

I have dealt with a certain number of sub-heads, from B to the Appropriations-in-Aid, in connection with the apportionment I made as to the expenditure on Unemployment Insurance and other matters. But there are those that I did not speak of. There is a small Vote under E as to a certifying Surgeon, and the amount is not big that is paid under this head. That remark would apply also to F—Expenses of Medical Referees—although the cost is considerably bigger than what falls under E. Item I "Special Services Inquiries," has gone up this year, as compared with last year. Certain items of the total remain as before. Item 1 is the only one which remains at the exact figure as before. No. 2 "Subscriptions and Delegations to Conference Parliamentaire Inter-nationale du Commerce," is less. This Parliamentary Conference is being held in London this year whereas it was held on the Continent last year. Item 3, "Subscription and Delegation to the International Railway Congress Association," shows a decrease because this year we only allowed for subscriptions and no delegation is being sent. Item 4, "Subscription and Delegation to International Union for Protection of Industrial Property and Delegation to the International Conference of Labour Statisticians," is new, and is rendered necessary because it is pretty well incumbent upon us to become subscribers to the International Union for the Protection of Industrial Property. There was a delegation sent in October to one meeting of the International Union for the Protection of Industrial Property, from which a very big amount of information was got, the result of which will be seen when the Industrial Property Protection Bill comes back from the Joint Committee.

J is an item in respect of which one would like to see expenditure instead of estimated expenditure, because if anyone could win this £1,500 prize the results would be immeasurable in comparison with the amount of the prize. Item K 1, Grant-in-Aid of the expenses of the International Labour Organisation, shows an advance this year, and that advance is automatic. I do not mean that it will go on increasing by this amount from year to year, but whatever be the increase it is more or less outside our control. It rests upon the basis on which contributions in regard to the whole League of Nations are fixed. That is built up in a way which I would not like to have to describe; it is a matter of great complexity, and if there is anyone sufficiently interested who wants to know how the sum is built up I can supply to him a publication which gives the calculations. K 2 remains as before, because it is considered, especially this year, when the International Labour Conference is dealing with matters affecting shipping, and with the shipping legislation in prospect for the Autumn, that it is more than ever necessary that a delegation should be sent to Geneva at this time.

In connection with J K, a new International Labour Office has been built at Geneva, and most of the nations which are members of the International Labour Organisation have subscribed in the way of gifts towards the furnishing and equipment of the office. This matter was raised when our delegates were at Geneva last year. It was taken up after their return home, and since then correspondence has been going on with a view to discovering what would be the most appropriate gift to the new office from this State. The amount set down is not very large, and it very definitely limits the choice of a gift. But even with the limited choice, it has not yet been found possible to decide on the exact nature of that gift; the only thing we are sure about is that it cannot go beyond £300. At the same time, there has had to be a delay in determining the exact nature of the gift, because it was represented to us that until some of the other gifts were known, no proper decision could be taken with regard to the expenditure of this £300. If this Vote passes, the statement is likely to be made at Geneva this year that there is in prospect a gift, the nature of which has still to be ascertained, of £300 worth towards this office.

The other matters do not call for much in the way of comment. Under Item N, there is a decrease of £100 this year. That, again, is founded on the experience of the working of last year. Under Item M, there is also a decrease of £250, but it is considered that the £350 will meet any expenditure likely to be incurred under that head. There is on the other side, corresponding to N, a decrease in the Appropriation-in-Aid under sub-head (a). The two are somewhat complementary. Appropriation-in-Aid (e), "Fees payable under Section 5 of the Trade Loans (Guarantee) Act, 1924," has been put down at £100. To a certain extent that is due to the fact that we were in doubt as to whether there would be any extension of the Trade

Loans (Guarantee) Act for another year. It has now been considered desirable that that should be carried on, and a Bill will probably be introduced for the purpose of extending it for another year. If that be done, that Appropriation-in-Aid may rise to something more than £100.

Major COOPER

I do not want to deal with general questions raised in this Vote. I want to deal solely with the Statistics Branch of the Ministry, and if any Deputy wishes to raise other points on sub-heads earlier than that I will give way.

Mr. HEWAT

I suppose it can be taken when we have come to the statistics that we cannot go back to anything else?

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

That is the only method. If we start with statistics we cannot go back. We have to start at some place and not go back.

Mr. HEWAT

The proper place is to start with A and have a general discussion on the whole Vote.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Very well.

Mr. HEWAT

The Minister explained that under the various heads that were concerned with unemployment and other insurance there was a large share of the expenditure that is covered by this Vote accounted for. I think it is a pity that the accounts should be confused in that way, because I rather maintain that Unemployment and Health Insurance, although they are under the Minister, should be separate organisations, and that they are not, perhaps, very rightly described as Industry and Commerce, although one can hardly altogether detach them from the Ministry.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

May I ask the Deputy to recognise that I have nothing to do with Health Insurance.

Mr. HEWAT

Well, with Unemployment Insurance then. Unemployment Insurance of course is a section which comes under the Minister, but as far as employers and the conduct of industry are concerned, the provision of

Unemployment Insurance is a charge, and a charge which I think ought to be taken into consideration as a separate organisation altogether. The remarks that I wish to make are directed largely to the Vote as a whole. I think the Minister said that the amount for all purposes, exclusive of what might be called the Unemployment figures, is comparatively small. We find a great many things in the Vote that take away from the usefulness of the Ministry in promoting trade and commerce. The amount that is spent in that direction is a comparatively small proportion of the total amount of the Vote. What I would like to say generally is, that we have to recognise that the purely commercial side of the Minister's work is very, very small within our borders.

It includes, as far as the statistical branch is concerned, apparently, the collection of statistics in connection with farming. I would like to say that we ought to recognise, and I would like the Minister to recognise, and get the Dáil to recognise, that this House occupies a very large amount of its time and attention in connection with culture to the detriment entirely of its industrial possibilities. I want at this stage to ask the Dáil not to accept altogether the outlook which is put before us on every possible occasion, that the future of the Saorstát holds nothing for trade or commerce or industry except what arises out of agriculture. I think the Dáil might take a broader view of the possibilities, and I would like to see the Minister stand up for his own Department in connection with what I might call that end of the stick—the possibilities of the future of the Saorstát industrially.

Mr. JOHNSON

J.J. will look after that.

Mr. HEWAT

He might look after it in a wrong direction. The possibilities of the development of industries in the Free State are not negligible. So far from their being negligible I maintain that they are practically unlimited; and that through the operation of our ports, and the introduction of raw material, there are very few directions in which the Free State might not expect and hope to advance very materially its prosperity through the channels of the Minister for Industry and Commerce. I therefore deprecate the comparatively small and insignificant operations that are carried on under the office of the Ministry of Industry and Commerce, and largely, in my judgment, including a number of things that are not properly within the purview of the Minister.

The Minister said very little about anything in connection with industry, I would like him to have said more in that direction, even if he had found it necessary to touch on the Shannon Scheme. To-day under the Minister, there is no doubt about it, commerce generally and industry in particular are languishing in the Saorstát to an extent that is almost unprecedented. So far from the urge of nationality focussing our people's minds on industry in the broad sense of the term, it seems to me to-day that there is less confidence in commercial operations than ever before. Practically most of our older industries are languishing, and if one might look at the general policy of the Government in a casual sort of way, I think they have given less consideration to the maintenance and development of industries that are there, than they have given to the setting up of what one might call new industries on a bolstered basis. I would like to see the Minister urging that his Department is more important than is shown by these accounts.

I know the various items in this Vote are complicated, and there will be considerable difficulty in analysing them. I know also that the urge and the general anxiety outside is to cut down expenses. The necessity for economy is very considerable. I have myself advocated the need for economy in every direction. But in this particular case, while it is very hard, for instance, to tackle questions of unemployment, and to say that unemployment grants are not necessary, or that the Department as a whole could be cut down very considerably, I do press that this particular Department should in the future get more consideration from the Dáil than it has got in the past. I say that even with the Farmers' representatives present to uphold their particular industry, the development of other industries is more important and worthy of more consideration than it has got from the Dáil.

Shipping comes under this Vote The Minister, I think, is sending a delegation to the International Labour Conference at Geneva this year, and after that Conference I hope he will be in a position to say to the Dáil that there is some hope for the development of shipping within the Free State. On some other occasion I hope that we will hear of some possible developments in other directions. In future I would suggest that the Minister should separate in the accounts items referring to the operations of the industrial and commercial side of his Department from such questions as unemployment, statistics, etc.

Mr. BAXTER

rose.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

I hope we are not going to have a discussion on the relative merits of industry and agriculture, as was suggested by Deputy Hewat.

Mr. BAXTER

No; I only want to make the remark that if I did speak on the Agricultural Vote I hope I would have something constructive to suggest to the Minister. We are not moving a reduction of the Estimate, but I want to inquire from the Minister in connection with the Industries Branch of his Department what is being done with regard to a geological survey of the country. What is the view of the Department with regard to what has been done in this direction? Is the work that has already been done accepted as a standard? What are the possibilities for further inquiry, and what has been the attitude of the Department to suggestions made as to the possibility of developing industries, at least to an extent not done at present, if we had a more correct and a more extensive geological survey than we have now? We have one economic geologist and one inspector of mines and quarries. I do not exactly know what is the work of the Inspector of Mines——

Mr. DAVIN

To inspect mines that are closed.

Mr. BAXTER

There is a feeling in the country that something further ought to be done in particular counties and areas in this respect. It has been suggested that this question was under consideration. If so, I would like to hear a fuller statement from the Minister.

Mr. DAVIN

I would like to raise one or two questions, and I think the time to do so is on the Minister's salary, because they are more matters of policy than of detailed administration. In his lengthy statement, the Minister gave a detailed review of the industrial work of his Department during the past year, rather than, as I expected, something in the nature of a statement of policy, or an indication of how the industrial outlook had improved since we discussed a similar estimate twelve months ago. The first question I want to raise concerns the attitude of the Ministry in refusing to sanction the payment of unemployment insurance benefit to workers who are thrown out of employment because of the fact that they have holdings of two or three acres with a few pounds valuation. The subject has been raised from this side of the Dáil on more than one occasion by way of Questions. I have a few cases in mind at present that I think the Minister is dealing with, but I have not yet had an answer. In my constituency a quarry which employed 120 men was closed down on 20th March last, and a number of the men who were compulsorily thrown out of work happened to have two, three, four or even eight acres of land. Their claims were submitted in the ordinary way for unemployment insurance benefit on the ground that the cards were stamped.

In some cases the Minister has refused to sanction payment of the unemployment insurance benefit. The law that exists now insists on employers in this and other cases stamping the cards. By his attitude in these cases-which from the number of Questions that I hear answered are not exceptional-the Minister declines to give the individual the benefit of the unemployment insurance, although the number of stamps is on the cards. I consider that is not a correct attitude for the Department to adopt. The Minister, I think, might reconsider the policy he has been pursuing in regard to such cases, and pay the unemployment insurance benefit to those who have small holdings, in the same way as it is paid to other workers who are thrown out of employment. I have an idea that the Minister may put up as a defence that the individuals suit their own convenience, and remain out of work at certain periods of the year, in order to till the small plots of land they have. From that point of view there may be some justification for the Minister's attitude, but where people are thrown out of employment through no fault of their own I think they should be treated like others, and paid the unemployment benefit that, in my opinion, they are legally entitled to.

In passing, the Minister referred to some inquiry held by the Transport and Marine Department into the financial position of the Great Southern Railways and the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway Co., and indicated that in the case of the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway Co., it might be necessary in the near future to ask for a Supplementary Estimate, for some reason that he did not state. Perhaps the Minister would go into a little more detail about the inquiry held by the officers of the Transport and Marine Department into the working of the Great Southern Railways Company and the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway Co., and tell the Dáil if the position of the Great Southern Railways Company has improved as a result of the passing of the Railways Amalgamation Act of 1924. The Minister might also state the reasons why he thinks it may be necessary to ask for a Supplementary Estimate for the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway Company, and when that

Supplementary Estimate is likely to be brought forward.

Deputy Hewat spoke of the operations of the Department and the way in which it is endeavouring to bolster up industries. I presume what the Deputy refers and objects to is the operation of the Trade Loans Guarantee Act. Personally I welcome the statement made by the Minister, that it has been decided to extend the operations of that Act for another year. I believe that anything that can be done to build up industries or to keep alive some of the industries that are now in a bad way, can be best done through the operations of an Act of that kind. While supporting the operations of the Department, I agree that the tariff policy can give equal help in that direction. I think it is a sound policy for the Department to pursue to continue the operations of the Act, and to give more help to people who may be disposed to invest their money and give the benefit of their brains to the promotion of industries.

The Minister referred to the examination of harbours and docks. I did not follow what the Minister meant when he said that such examination had been carried out by the Transport and Marine Department. I am anxious to know what was the nature of the examination, in view of the fact that the Minister has recently announced the appointment of a Harbours and Docks Commission, to inquire into the standardisation of harbour law. The Minister also referred to the question of inland navigation. Perhaps he would indicate to the Dail if there has been any change in the attitude of the Ministry in that matter. I would like to know what was the nature of the investigation, and what effect it had on the policy of the Ministry, as against the negative policy pursued up to the present.

Major COOPER

I gather from Deputy Hewat's speech that he is accusing the Minister of undue modesty. That was not my former impression of the Minister on the whole.

Mr. BAXTER

He puts all his goods in the window.

Major COOPER

He puts all his goods in the window, and I hope he will continue to do so, because, in Industry and Commerce, it is very desirable that all the goods should be put in the window. I will not blame the Minister for that, and I will not accuse him of failing to institute, shall I call it a "geological survey," or a post mortem of the present state of Irish industry and commerce. Personally, I think that Irish industry and commerce is a plant which may thrive, but it will not thrive if, periodically, we dig it up and examine the condition of its roots. I think the Minister is justified in his failure to go into a general survey of the present position of Irish industry. I do not know that as a consultant he would add anything to the advice of general practitioners like Deputy Hewat, and the mere fact of his being called in might cause people to believe that the patient was in extremis.

I want to deal with one point, and that is in connection with the Statistics Branch. So far as the Statistics Branch is concerned, there is a reduction in cost, and that reduction in cost must be welcomed. I am not going, like Deputy Hewat, to upbraid the Minister for the fact that he is not spending enough money. I will always congratulate any Minister who is spending less money than heretofore and doing his work effectually. The reduction in the cost of the Statistics Branch is the more notable because, during the current year, we have taken a census, and the tabulation and publication of the results of that census will fall on the Statistics Branch. The fact that the Minister has been able to do that, without additional expenditure, is a fact on which he can be congratulated. He has told us that he hopes to get the preliminary results of the census published within a month. I must say I wish it could have been done earlier. I am very sorry Northern Ireland has got ahead of us in this respect. It would be very interesting to be able to see by comparative figures whether the drift to the towns, that appears in the preliminary census of Northern Ireland, is paralleled here, and whether the shrinkage of the rural population, that appears in the census of Northern Ireland, also appears here.

The Minister has justified the delay in publishing the census returns by the additional care given by the enumerators in calling for every paper and examining every paper. I should like, if I may, to give the Minister my experience of that care on the part of the enumerators. It happened that the Committee of Public Accounts was not sitting, and that I was, consequently, at home when a very earnest young member of the Gárdaí called to take up my census paper. He got to work on it before I discovered he was there. On the night the census was taken I happened to have a Russian Baron staying with me as my guest. I will disarm the hostility of the Labour Party by saying that I do not, habitually, entertain Russian Barons. He was staying with me because his wife was a friend of my wife. His one desire in life was to have an interview with the Minister for Industry and Commerce, and I arranged that interview the following day. My guest was a married man with children. I filled in a good part of the form beforehand, and as I knew he was coming I entered him at the bottom of the entry relating to my own family, and immediately above the servants. My cook, who appeared at the head of the servants, is also a married woman. I do not quite know, and I do not know if she knows, where her husband is. The Gárda who called, seeing the two people next each other on the form, and noticing that both were entered as married, insisted that they were married to each other, and entered the Russian nobleman's children as my cook's step-children. That was the additional accuracy obtained by the enumerator going into every case. I came on the scene before it was too late. I checked the Gárda, and I was firm with him, and the result is that my census form is accurate.

If they have gone on the same lines elsewhere with weak women and people who were puzzled by the whole return I am not at all sure that the additional accuracy that has been obtained by the enumerators going into every form in detail has at all compensated for the delay in issuing the complete results. I hope it has not been thought that I have been blaming the enumerators. This young Gárda was most anxious to do his duty, but I do not know that he had had quite sufficient instruction as to how the duty of enumeration should be performed. It is a little different carrying out this duty with a young force, and with men of three or four years' service, from carrying it out with the R.I.C. In England the police force never carried it out at all. They had special people trained for it. An R.I.C. Sergeant of 15 or 20 years' service would have previous experience, and he could carry out the work better than a young Gárda could. I think the Minister would have done better, on the whole, to take the form in the raw condition as filled up by the householder, deferring for inquiry only forms in which the householder was illiterate, or in which there were serious defects, rather than having a detailed examination of the form in every house.

I leave that point and come to the general position of statistics. We are voting about £30,000 for the collection of statistics. I do not grudge the money. Good government requires accurate information, and I do not grudge spending £30,000 on getting accurate statistics. But I do think these statistics ought to be made more readily available to the public than they are at present. There ought to be better machinery for circulating them to the public and to the Press than exists at the present time. Outside the Saorstát there is an impression among newspaper men that we are living in a state of chaos, and that the proceedings of this Dáil closely resemble the more violent excesses of the French Revolution as pictured in the most sensational films.

Mr. JOHNSON

A picture of today's meeting!

Major COOPER

We have been working so hard that I have not been at the pictures for a month. I have very lately felt inclined to suggest that, to counteract that belief that we are living in a constant state of violent and revolutionary enthusiasm, a film should be taken of the Dáil sitting on Estimates, but when I have put that forward amongst circles interested in the cinema they say it would be bad for all parties. Where is the Leader of the Farmers' Party? The people interested in the cinema industry have informed me that the public are bored with slow motion films, so that is not an adequate antidote.

Mr. JOHNSON

Let them see a Bill passing.

Major COOPER

I think, as an antidote to the prevalent impression that we are living in a state of chaos, we should publish some year-book representing the activities of the State. Every other Dominion does so. Even Northern Ireland, which is not a Dominion, but a subordinate parliament, publishes a year-book, and if we could codify our statistics and get them into readable form, it would be of great value. The Minister may say there is the "Irish Trade Journal." It is an interesting publication, but has a lot of superfluous matter. It contains many illustrations of the working of the Shannon Scheme, interesting to the general reader, but you do not want to file those illustrations for a year or two years. You have statistics published on one side of the page in the "Irish Trade Journal" and statistics on the other side. If you cut them out you have to sacrifice one set of the statistics. If you have them codified in a journal you do not need to cut them out at all. If you want to make a comparison for a number of years a proper journal would give you statistics for 1924, 1925 and so on. I have, on my shelves, choc-à-bloc with different figures, export figures, railway statistics, and so on. If you get them all complied into one book it would be a good thing.

I do not lay as much stress on that as I do on the Press outside. I worked for a while on a newspaper in England. The average journalist knows very little but he knows how to find out everything. Every big newspaper keeps a reference library with a librarian, and the journalist who wants to know the exports of Saorstát Eireann for 1924-25, will go to that library and the librarian will help him to get it in ten minutes. Those libraries are limited in size and scope. They will not take our statistics as we issue them but they will take our Year Book. They have already the Australian and the Canadian Year Book, and they would buy a further Year Book. I do not think this Year Book will be any cost to the State. We have statistics already, The cost of printing and publishing is not enormous, and it would be bought by people interested, by newspaper men, by professional writers, publicists, and people of that kind, in order to have the latest, most accurate and authoritative figures. I agree it requires some arrangement. There are people in this world who have a morbid appetite for statistics like the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and myself. We have not an appetite for the same statistics. We discriminate in our diet. The average man requires to be led to the river to make him drink. A Year Book, presented with a certain amount of comment and illuminated illustration, is a means for inducing further knowledge. The people who will dig into a varied number of publications in order to get certain statistics are very few, and they all want to prove a case. I think a collective epitome of the statistics of the Free State would fill a want, give information where information is needed, and would clear up a great many misunderstandings.

I went two years ago to an inter-parliamentary conference in Switzerland. The best propaganda I took with me was a copy of the Official Report containing the Budget Speech of the Minister for Finance in 1924, not that I agree with that speech, but the mere facts and figures in that speech persuaded people that we were facing facts on business lines. That is the greatest need of the present day, so far as the State is concerned, to show that we are not chasing rainbows, pursuing will-o'-the-wisp ideas that land us in bogs, but that we are facing facts on business-like lines, that we know what our imports and exports are, that we are dealing with realities and not with illusions.

Mr. BAXTER

On this question of the Statistics Branch I want to say there is very good work being done at present. I have recently come across a paper produced by that office on agricultural prices in 1840, and I must confess it was a revelation not alone to agriculturists, but to non-agriculturists, and I wish it were put into the hands of every member of the community. With regard to the statement of the Minister, that we are to have a census of production, we welcome that very heartily. Side by side with the census of population, the census of production is not one whit less important to the State. We will have from the census of population an indication of the producers and from the census of production we will have an idea of quantity, of what really the effects of our labours are.

I suppose we are to assume that the census of production will be taken in the same manner as that of the census of population. The Minister has not indicated that. On that point I would like to say, if that work is to be done effectively, it is, in my opinion, going to present a much more difficult task than the work of taking the census of population. If we are to judge by the collection of tillage figures, the experience in years past has been that the enumerator took the returns for a townland, and these were the figures supplied to the Department, on which was based the return of the operations of our farmers. I tried to satisfy myself from the collection of tillage returns last year that the work was done more effectively than usual. I was particularly interested in seeing that in one district a correct return of live stock would be made, and I was surprised to learn from many farmers that sufficient efforts were not made by the enumerator to ensure that he had a correct return. I would urge on the Minister that stress should be laid on the importance of getting accurate returns of production, as the methods of the past will not suffice now. As regards the collection of tillage statistics, I think that there are undoubtedly cases where sufficient trouble has not been taken by the enumerator to interview all the people interested and to do his work to the entire satisfaction of those who demand that these returns shall be supplied. A census of production is undoubtedly overdue, and, until we have it, we will feel that the taxpayer will not know correctly where he stands. We are glad to hear from the Minister that this work is going to be undertaken at the earliest possible moment. I am satisfied from inquiries made that, if effective steps are not taken to see that the census of production is carefully compiled, it will not give us what is required, but will, in fact, give us a false basis on which to start.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I wish to support the suggestion put forward by Deputy Cooper with regard to the compilation of a year-book. I also have found in my endeavours to obtain figures which are required, and not having a secretary to keep a file of my papers, that it is very difficult to get exact statistics when required. I think it would be an excellent idea if all the statistics compiled by the Department of Industry and Commerce were got together in a book which would be available in handy form. I congratulate the Ministry on the efforts which are being made to produce statistics of a suitable kind, and I believe that the work which is being done by the Statistical Department is, so far as it goes, excellent. With regard to the statistics dealing with farm products, I agree with Deputy Baxter that greater care is necessary in obtaining information, because, judging by some of my experiences, I am inclined to think that the information obtained, except in so far as it is a general average and that one error may counterbalance another, is not often quite accurate. One of the reasons for that is, in my opinion, the fact that the Gárda in each district is expected to collect information with regard to farm produce, live stock and so forth only for his own district. That I know was the arrangement some years ago, and I think it still prevails. Some years ago when at home I was questioned by an old R.I.C. man as to the amount of live stock, crops, poultry and so forth, on the farm, and I gave him all the information necessary. Later on, however, I found that he was only collecting information for that portion of the farm which came within his own district. Probably another man interviewed the herd on the other portion of the farm and got a duplication of the facts which I had previously given.

If that is still the system, I think it is a matter which should be carefully looked into, because the enumerators used to get information casually from anyone they met, not necessarily from the farmer, but, perhaps, from his wife or children, so that those statistics could not be regarded as reliable. I think that we should aim at having our agricultural statistics as accurate as they possibly can be. I do not know if the Minister could give information regarding the system of getting the prevailing prices at fairs. Who gets the information? Is it the Gárda? I find it extremely difficult to get accurate figures in that connection. I often doubt the figures which I see in the newspapers. I see different prices for cattle in different parts of the country. I know that these figures are not compiled by the Ministry, but by newspaper men. I often notice big differences, even in the price per hundred weight, in similar type of cattle. If figures are not approximately accurate they are not worth having. I would also like to know whether the book which is published annually, giving the figures with regard to our imports and exports, has yet been issued for the year 1925. At any rate, I have not yet got a copy. It is a very useful and instructive book, and I think it is time that it was in the hands of Deputies.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Deputy Baxter spoke about the view of my Department as to the Geological Survey, how far it was adequate, and how far there was going to be further inquiry made. The Deputy should understand that no part of the cost of the Geological Survey comes within the Vote of my Department. It falls under the Vote of the Ministry of Education. Personally, I have had representations made to me regarding the inadequacy of the old survey, and there is a belief that it was far from accurate in its final stage. The story goes that in the end it was so rushed that it was done by people going round in dog-carts and using telescopes, and that they had to write down what they saw from that superficial examination.

As to that I cannot say. I do know this, however, that apart from the question whether the geological survey in the past was adequate or not, there has been such a change in the technical method of dealing with, say, mineral resources brought about during the course of the war, that the information available with regard to the deposits of minerals might be regarded as useless for present-day purposes. May I put it in this way: that in the old days, whatever was the technical way of dealing with minerals, it was not considered, unless the minerals were easily accessible, and in certain quantities, an economic proposition to have them worked; but with the new aids of science revealed in the last five or six years, things that would have been looked upon as uneconomic some years ago, might easily be regarded as economic and might be worked now. That has been impressed upon me more than once by several groups that have, in the last couple of years, been prospecting in this country for their own purposes. Certainly, the reports I have got from some of these people, reports made to me in confidence, would seem to show that there is a great deal to be done in regard to a new geological survey. I have had certain discussions on this with other Ministers. I cannot say that there has been any decision taken on this, because I have not had any discussions with the Minister for Education on the matter; but there is a feeling, at any rate, that some forward move should be got on foot with regard to a new survey in the direction of filling in the gaps of the old survey. It seems to be the common idea that this should not be something in the nature of an ad hoc Commission appointed to do a certain amount of work and then cease its labours, but rather that there should be located somewhere, say, in some Department, the work that used to be done by the College of Science and that has recently been taken over by University College, Dublin: that there should be some people whose duty it would be to keep in touch with the new developments and methods of dealing with mineral resources and try to readjust all the information, and all the methods of working minerals founded on the old geological survey and have all this brought up to date in accordance with the new information as it comes to hand. That, however, is not for me, except that I can put certain suggestions that have been made to me with regard to it before the Minister for Education and see what could be done in the matter. The Deputy also asked as to suggestions that have been made to my Department from time to time, whether these suggestions have dealt with a particular area and whether the preliminary observations and inquiries seemed to indicate that there was value to be got from a new inquiry in a particular district. I referred here on one of my earlier Votes to an inquiry which has just been concluded with regard to the Arigna area, the results of which are not yet in my hand. Where suggestions of that kind are made, and where they seem to show a definite prospect of value accruing to the State, these inquiries will be entered into. The Deputy must realise that the funds at my disposal from this Vote for any purpose of that sort are very limited. All I can do is simply to have the assistance of this geologist put at the disposal of whatever body or commission is set up. The inspector of mines is, of course, mainly an inspector for safety purposes, and not an inspector in the sense of a prospector.

Deputy Davin raised the old question of what he described as the refusal to sanction unemployment insurance benefit to people because they had certain holdings of land. He has raised this in a peculiar way. He said he raised it on the Minister's salary and as a question of policy. I can tell him, and I want to be quite frank about it, that there is no policy in refusing unemployment insurance benefit to people who have contributions and who happen to have some holding of land. There could not be any policy that way. There are certain statutes which have to be administered, and there is always an appeal against anything an insurance officer may do. I went into this on the Unemployment Insurance Bill which recently passed its Second Reading in the Dáil. I was glad to see in a later remark of the Deputy's that he corrected his language and said that in some cases there had been refusals. I tried to impress on the Dáil when speaking on the Second Reading of the Unemployment Insurance Bill, that the Dáil only hears by means of Parliamentary questions of the cases in which there have been refusals. It hears very little of the cases in which people with holdings of land have got payments of benefit where, of course, all the statutory provisions of the Act are complied with. I put it to the Deputy, as I put it to several of his colleagues before, that if they can give me concrete cases where, having taken into consideration all the circumstances such as the size of the holding, the season of the year, the applicant's previous industrial history, and where Deputies think there is a case of hardship, such cases in which they can say, definitely, that it leads to the conclusion that the refusal was due to the fact that the person simply held land, then I will get these concrete cases inquired into.

Mr. DAVIN

Within the last three weeks I have supplied the Minister with three cases of that kind, and so far I have got no decision.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Does the Deputy mean that he has put to me cases that have already been decided by the umpire? If that is the case, I cannot interfere with them. The umpire has to take into consideration before he gives a decision such things as the season of the year and whether a particular holding does provide employment for a particular individual at a particular time of the year.

Mr. DAVIN

My whole point is that the law should not compel an employer to deduct a certain amount from a man's wages for the stamping of his cards, and at the same time prevent that man from getting benefit.

Mr. P. HOGAN (Clare)

There is a provision to prevent him getting back his money according to the new Unemployment Insurance Act.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Now we are getting on to the law.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

What the law states is that if a person goes into an occupation which is insurable, contributions must be deducted from his pay. The employer is bound to make those deductions, and in that way the fund is built up. As to whether insured persons can draw from that fund depends on a variety of circumstances. I am afraid, although Deputies always deny it when I make the statement, that the impression is current in this House that the unemployment insurance fund is a sort of savings bank arrangement in which people have money on which they can draw when they get out of work. That is not the case, of course, but questions proceed on that basis and questions have been framed on the lines of saying that a man has so many contributions to his credit, that he is not working at a particular time, and then it is asked why is he not getting insurance benefit. There are a great many more things to be looked to than whether a person has contributions to his credit and is not working. You have to decide could that person get employment. If that person had a particular holding of land which, at a particular time of the year, offered employment, then under the statutes unemployment insurance benefit could not be paid.

Mr. COLOHAN

Would the Minister say how a man is to live on his holding if he is disemployed at a particular season of the year: how is he going to support himself until the tillage season?

Mr. DAVIN

Will the Minister also deal with the cases of persons thrown out of employment through no fault of their own and who are not tilling land?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

The Unemployment Insurance Act does not say that a person must be kept in food while doing certain work. It says, provided certain statutory regulations are complied with, Unemployment Benefit may be paid. Take the case the Deputy puts. If a person has a holding and he goes to till that holding, he is not available for work, and fails to comply with the statutory requirements. The point Deputies have raised and are arguing against is the requirements of the Statutes. I do not think that can be argued at this stage. I am asking for certain money for administration purposes under certain Statutes. If there are complaints against the Statutes there must be some other way of raising points than on an estimate. I am putting it to Deputy Davin that he has admitted in some cases there were refusals. I think he admits definitely there are a great many cases in which benefit has been paid to people who have holdings of land, so that the case is not clear-cut. The case was presented by other Deputies that because a person has a holding unemployment benefit would not be paid to him.

Mr. COLOHAN

The Statute does not lay down that working on a holding, the property of the insured contributor, is employment for wages.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

The only point relevant in the matter is, is the person available for employment?

Mr. COLOHAN

Of course he is if he can get it.

Mr. DAVIN

Deal with the case of a man thrown out of employment through no fault of his own, and who is refused benefit because he has a holding.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

There is no case of refusing a person thrown out of employment through no fault of his own simply because he has a holding of land.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Who decides these cases.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

The umpire.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Can the Minister decide them?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

All I can do is to explain the effect of the umpire's decision and the principle on which he acts.

Mr. JOHNSON

Does not the umpire decide on the case put to him by the officers of the Minister?

Mr. HOGAN (Clare)

Does the Minister say that certain agricultural work can be done at a certain period of the year? Will he take the case of a man working on the roads for twenty years and who is thrown out of work sometime of the year when there is no tillage to be done on his holding? What qualification has the umpire to say that agricultural work can be done at that period?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

The umpire is a judicial person, and is chosen as a judicial person because of his all-round experience in dealing with matters coming before him. On the Second Reading of the Unemployment Insurance Bill I instanced the case of a person absent from his holding and engaged in some kind of work which so affected his physique that he could not go back to the land. The fact that he has a holding would not count against him if his industrial history has unfitted him for working on the land.

Mr. HOGAN (Clare)

It has.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

What has?

Mr. HOGAN

You say his occupation has unfitted him for going back to the land.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

In that case benefit would be paid. At least there would be no refusal to pay benefit because the person had land.

Mr. HOGAN

But there has been a refusal.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Not on that general ground. I say there is no regulation in any Statute and no policy of having benefit refused to people simply because they have land. I say if cases are brought to me in the light of day in the Dáil we can have the whole thing examined as to the season of the year, the type of land, and the applicant's previous industrial history. If there are clear-cut cases why do not Deputies search for them, bring them up here and expose them? As to the financial inquiry into railway companies, there has been a financial inquiry into the position of the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway for each of the last two or three years, I think for all the years during which the Free State has been set up, because there were moneys given to and provided for the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway for working the three Government lines. It has not been quite decided, but it looks as if money will have to be provided for the company which works these lines again this year. That will have to be brought forward by way of a supplementary estimate. I cannot say that has been decided, but I give warning that most likely there will have to be some supplementary estimate, something smaller than last year, looked for this year again. The inquiry into the Southern Railways Company is an inquiry that will have to be undertaken by my Department for certain purposes of its own, and one might say for the special purpose of preparing for the case that will likely be made before the Railway Tribunal with regard to rates and fares. The Deputy asked a question as to how far could one arrive at a conclusion as to the effect on the railway company's finances of the amalgamation scheme. One does not need a financial inquiry for that. One has only to read the speech made by the Chairman of the Board of Directors to the proprietors of the railway company some months ago to see what benefit he thought had accrued to the railway company from amalgamation.

Mr. DAVIN

Had the Minister's officers when they held the inquiry access to the books of the Company to satisfy themselves that his view of the situation was correct?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

There are certain returns to be made to my Department which would form the subject of calculations made by them, but deductions made by them may not always agree with what the railway company's officials would deduce from them. These are points that will have to be fought out before the Railway Tribunal and settled by the Tribunal.

Mr. DAVIN

Had the Minister's officials who made this inquiry access to the books and documents of the company?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

May I answer the Deputy this way: they had access to whatever documents they thought necessary for the purpose of drawing their own conclusions. If the Deputy thinks they should get other documents for some purpose of the Deputy——

Mr. DAVIN

No, I am satisfied.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

The Deputy, I think, misunderstood me with regard to inquiries into harbours, docks and piers. All that I said was that the annual accounts and sinking fund returns of the various harbour authorities had to be examined. They fall for examination pretty well every year. There have been public inquiries which were attended by representatives of the Department in connection with applications that were made under the Harbours, Docks and Piers (Temporary Increase of Charges) Act, 1920, for powers to increase the statutory charges made by the Harbour Commissioners in four cases, Waterford, Galway, Wexford and Youghal, and there was no general harbour inquiry. I think the Deputy may have misunderstood me with regard to that. Similarly with regard to inland navigation, I gave the four questions that really have been dealt with under the heading of "Inland Navigation" during the course of the financial year by the Marine Branch—the proposed abandonment of the Ulster Canal; the proposed abandonment of navigation on the Ballymore and Ballyconnell Canal; the improvement of the Barrow navigation, and the development of transport services on the Royal Canal. The transport branch in charge of administrative work during the year had nothing to do with any decision as to policy with regard to, say, the report of the Canal and Inland Waterways Commission.

Mr. DAVIN

The Minister did not indicate what he proposed to do arising out of these inquiries and investigations.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

No, because the first two to which I referred could not be said to have come to a definite conclusion yet. The third question is that of the improvement of the Barrow navigation—I might almost change it, for the purposes of deputations with which Deputy Davin and Deputy Colohan were associated, to disimprovement——

Mr. DAVIN

And other Deputies.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

And other Deputies—in order to lighten the cost of our proposed scheme, which is not to be mentioned here. The fourth matter— the transport service on the Royal Canal—is a matter about which I am not giving any details at the moment because, to a certain extent, it is bound up with inquiries that are proceeding. The most important of these, of course, from my point of view, is the question of the Barrow navigation, because I am trying to see what force there is in certain complaints that have been made with regard to the Barrow Drainage scheme.

Deputy Cooper spoke of statistics, and referred to the delay. I do not see how, in any circumstances, it would have been possible to have a preliminary return from the results of the census of population here earlier than in Northern Ireland. They would always have an advantage in the smaller area and the larger number of enumerators in that area. One might also say, having a greater number in their service of people who did this work before, they would also have an advantage that way. Even although the Deputy gave one example where the delay might not have resulted in an accurate return from the census, I do not think that that could be considered as a normal or typical example. There are not many places where they have Russian barons and married cooks so as to cause confusion in the minds of the simple enumerator.

As to the Year Book, the aim here is towards the production of a Year Book. I doubt very much if that can be carried on with the staff that is available. It would require, certainly, one extra officer whose duty it would be to take the material that was coming out month by month and prepare it for inclusion in the Year Book, as is done in the cases the Deputy quoted of Australia and South Africa. The aim is towards that and it is only a matter of when the Statistics Branch will have reached such a normal period that they can set to work with some degree of accuracy and see what extra help is required for that particular purpose. I might enter a note of warning here to Deputy Cooper. I have no hope whatever that the census of population will prove to have been got through without some additional expenditure to the £29,000 here. I can see very definitely that a supplementary Vote will have to be taken.

Major COOPER

I anticipated that.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I refer to certain work in connection with the census of population which had been done by the Census Branch. Extra money will be required for extra work in the way of compilation, and there may have to be payments of special allowances to people who are already in the Statistics Branch for special and extra work done in connection with the census, but I have no hope, whatever, of being able to have the Statistics Branch with its ordinary normal allocation of, say, £30,000 do the work of the census of population without additional money.

I share the Deputy's view in regard to publication. I do not say that publication in greater detail by the Statistics Branch could cause or would have the result of having a better impression created as to normal work carried on in the country, but I do think if the newspapers and publications here, generally, took the information supplied by the Statistics Branch, and gave it a certain amount of space, instead of the sensationalism that is, apparently, so popular, you would get a better impression. Nobody can ever say that newspapers give a correct impression of a country. Newspapers always look for the abnormal and exciting things. I do not see where anybody seeking tranquillity and rest would go to live if they took the newspaper accounts all over the world of the countries about which they report. I am afraid I cannot go into the details that Deputy Baxter requires about a census of agricultural production. There will be plenty of time to have that question raised in the next six months. The Deputy can rely on it that the information collected with regard to agriculture will be got in the most accurate way, in a way that will be approved by the Statistics Branch, and will certainly be in line with the International Statistics Bureau. It would be rather difficult for me, at this moment, particularly as only preparatory work has been done in connection with it—and that has been interrupted by work on the census of population— to supply the information. There will be quite time enough, say, in the next session, if the Deputy likes to have questions raised on this, to have some information given to him and to put forward suggestions, if it seems proper for Deputies to put forward suggestions, as to the manner in which information would be collected. Suggestions will be received and considered. It will not be a matter so much in the agricultural census production of forms as for enumerators going about in their areas. A considerable amount of trouble will devolve on the enumerators rather than on the actual land owner or actual producer.

As regards Deputy Heffernan's question as to statistics regarding prices, ordinarily speaking there is a market reporter, who furnishes information as regards prices. The reporter will be paid a retaining fee. He will be a local person who will attend all markets and make whatever investigation as to prices that is necessary and send up the results. The ordinary review of the imports and exports return for 1925 has been delayed owing to the pre-occupation of the Director of Statistics with the census of population. It is in the Press at the moment and will shortly be issued. There has been delay, but the delay has been due to the amount of work entailed on the Director as regards the census of population.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

I would like to remind the Minister that last year, I think, on this Estimate—it may have been the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture—Deputy Johnson suggested that certain statistics that had been placed before the Commission on Agriculture and that had never been published should be published. The Minister promised to give the matter consideration, but the statistics have never been published. At least they have never reached the hands of Deputies.

Mr. JOHNSON

The publication Deputy Baxter has referred to is one of them—only one.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I wonder if Deputy Johnson would correct Deputy Heffernan. Was that point raised on the Vote for the Ministry of Industry and Commerce last year? I think not.

Mr. JOHNSON

It was raised on the Statistics Vote.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Or on the Statistics Bill?

Mr. JOHNSON

On the Statistics Vote—I think so.

Mr. HEFFERNAN

That would be under the Department of Industry and Commerce.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I will have that debate looked up. I take it that Deputy Heffernan is making the same request this year, whatever was promised last year?

Mr. HEFFERNAN

Yes. The Minister promised to look into it, but nothing was said about it since, as far as I know.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I will look up that matter and see what can be done.

Mr. BAXTER

There is a point I wish to raise in connection with the Appropriations-in-Aid. The Minister has intimated that the £100 shown is an indication that there is to be an extension of the Trade Loans Guarantee Act. I do not know whether I am quite in order in this, but as I understand it the operations of the Act at the moment are, I should say, limited. If I understand the matter aright, the position is that the loan can be secured only through the National Land Bank. Is that the position?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Not at all.

Mr. BAXTER

I want to say further that, while I appreciate the fact that all possible precautions have to be taken in the operations of this Act, the demands that are made seem to be so difficult to fulfil that in a number of cases where this matter has been under consideration of applications for loans, people have cried off. They have made up their mind that the demands that were made in the matter of guarantees were such that it was almost an impossibility to conform to the regulations. I want to make the point that if there is to be an extension of this as indicated here, there should be consideration as to whether or not the facilities afforded will not be more easily afforded than they have been up to the present. That is in the matter of guarantees, mortgages, etc. We might say that the effort on the part of the Department of Industry and Commerce or the Department of Finance to get these is such that organisation societies and people desiring to obtain the benefits of this Act have been compelled actually to abandon their efforts or to abandon hope of coming within the scope of the Act. If there is any reason at all for the Act being in existence I feel that the Department will have to consider whether or not they should see their way to make loans more easily obtained in the future, if the Act is to be extended, than they have been up to the present.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

The small amount of the appropriation-in-aid— £100—is due to the fact that when this Estimate was being made out it was not decided that the Trade Loans Guarantee Act should be continued for another year. I cannot say even yet that that decision has been formally taken, but I think the Deputy can rely upon it that there will be a Bill introduced to extend the operations of the Act for another year. There may have to be certain minor changes. £100 only represents what was likely to accrue as between the end of the last financial year and the date of the expiry of the Act, which will be somewhere about June or July of this year. That appropriation-in-aid in the new conditions might be expected to bring in a bigger sum if the Act be renewed as it is likely to be.

The Deputy then speaks of difficulties. There will have to be difficulties. There has to be inquiries as to how far a scheme is sound. If for instance a scheme is put up, a soundly conceived scheme, and that it is properly guaranteed by a bank, there is very little difficulty even before the Advisory Committe or the two Departments who have to pronounce upon it. The Deputy may have noticed that in a recent publication it was called in question whether moneys that had been loaned had fallen within the scope of the Act. Of course, on that, the highest legal opinion open to the Department and to the Government had been taken, and the opinion had been definitely on one side—that it was quite within the scope of the Act. The Deputy used the phrase—I do not know whether he insisted on that so much—that there is difficulty in bringing things within the scope of the Act. I would hardly like it to go out that there is a sort of insistence, or attempt at bringing things within the Act. The Advisory Committee has to consult on that, in the first instance, and it would be really for the two Departments to say—they are unquestionably expected to say— whether it did fall within the scope of the Act. If there is a case outside the scope of the Act, no matter how sound the scheme may be, there is certainly no guarantee given. It has to be definitely within the scope of the Act. Where it is a matter that is within the scope of the Act, and where the scheme is sound and properly conceived, there is no difficulty.

In the operations of this Act, viewing the whole thing retrospectively from the date of the original Act, there seems to have been a great delay—that matter was right at the start—due to certain dissensions which arose at the beginning. That need not be gone into now, but recently there has been no undue delay in the operations of the Advisory Committee, and I do not think that anybody can say with very much justice that there has been delay owing to the two Departments. I hope the Act will be renewed for a further year, and the Deputy can rely upon it that good schemes will get as speedy consideration as the importance of the schemes warrants, provided always, that there is a definite appreciation of the fact that where public money is being voted—even though it is only a secondary liability—there has to be an assurance by the Advisory Committee to the Department and by the Departments themselves, as to the soundness of the schemes put up.

Mr. JOHNSON

Is the Minister suggesting that the Bill will be brought in before the adjournment or before Autumn?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I am suggesting that it may be a very simple Bill, and that it will be introduced before the adjournment.

Mr. JOHNSON

It will be a Bill that will raise a lot of discussion.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Well, we will have to risk that. It must be passed before the Act expires—before the House adjourns.

Mr. A. BYRNE

Can the Minister give us any report on the working of the Act? Has it been a success or has it been of any benefit to any firms, or has it afforded any benefit to the unemployed? Has it resulted in giving work? We would like to know if the measure has been a success as far as the Minister is concerned.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I gave an indication earlier of the amount which had been guaranteed, divided into three classes—(1) the cases in which guarantees had actually been given; (2) these where the guarantee had been approved by the Advisory Committee and the two Department concerned, and simply had to await the completion of certain legal formalities; (3) a certain other group of six where the cases had been recommended by the Advisory Committee and by my own Department, but had not yet emerged from the Department of Finance. I calculated the sums guaranteed amounted to over £600,000, and the probable resulting employment is estimated at about 2,000 people. I think the simple enumeration of those amounts, and the possible employment is sufficient justification of the Act.

Question put and agreed to.

The PRESIDENT

The Minister for Lands and Agriculture will not be in a position to take his Estimate earlier than Thursday. I propose that the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs will take the Post Office Estimates to-morrow, after the Increase of Rent and Mortgage Interest (Restrictions) Bill, 1926, and the Railways (Existing Officers and Servants) Bill, 1926.

Progress ordered to be reported.

The Dáil went out of Committee. Progress reported; Committee to sit again to-morrow.

The Dáil adjourned at 9.55 p.m., until to-morrow, Wednesday, 26th May, at 3 o'clock.