With regard to the question of which Deputy Lyons has given notice, will he explain what it is that he wants to raise on the adjournment?
THE ADJOURNMENT.
My object is to get the Minister for Justice to say whether he will allow the same facilities this Christmas to prisoners detained for political offences as was allowed in former years.
The Deputy must first give me his definition of "political offences."
Does the Deputy mean detained under any particular Act—the Treasonable Offences Act, for example?
Yes, the Public Safety Act, or any similar Act. I want to get information as to the intention of the Government with regard to prisoners sentenced for offences which have been looked upon for long years as political offences, and whether these prisoners will be treated as political prisoners and not as common criminals?
As to the Orders on the Paper, will the Vice-President say what the intention is with regard to them?
We do not propose to take any of the Orders on the Paper to-day, because I think many Deputies were under the impression that no Orders would be taken to-day.
These Orders will be discharged, and will be taken again next Tuesday.
I move: "That the House adjourns until Tuesday, the 30th November."
I shall allow Deputy Lyons to explain, now, what he means.
I put a question down to endeavour to find out from the Minister for Justice what the intentions of the Government were with regard to the number of prisoners at present detained, and whether these prisoners will be allowed, or are at present allowed, to communicate with their friends outside, and as to whether parcels, if sent to them, will be delivered to them this Christmas as in former years. The Minister for Justice gave that sort of reply to my question which is usually given by Ministers to members at Westminster. I have no doubt, from long sittings at the Imperial Conference, he has come to the conclusion that the best thing is to avoid publicity, and not to reply to the questions Deputies put to him for the information of the country. There are three or four persons from the constituency I represent interned at present. These men have been taught from 1916 that the best thing they could do and that the best manner in which they could achieve the freedom and sovereign independence of their country was to commit certain offences.
These men were taught by the members of the present Government in years gone by that these were political offences, and during the time when the members of this House were arrested and interned the whole cry was that they were not treated as political prisoners. Now is it because we are part of England that the men who are adhering to their ideas of independence for the country are to be branded as criminals? Did the men in power to-day in the Saorstát refuse to be branded in this way in the past? I hold that the men and women who to-day are in opposition to the State and who happened to be interned for that cause should be treated as political prisoners and not as criminals. There are two ladies sentenced for trifling offences, and these ladies are treated as criminals. Surely the Dáil must realise that men and women who in the years gone by were instructed and educated in opposition to the Government, and who now adhere to that instruction and are still against the Government and are working for what in their opinion is the quickest and best method of freedom, are political prisoners. Some of those people have been sentenced to ten years' penal servitude. They are locked up and branded as a lot of murderers. They must associate with murderers inside the prison walls. Surely that is going beyond what should be done.
I could fully understand in the years gone by when the Minister for Justice and other members of the Executive Council were arrested that the Government at that time might say: "We will not give those people the right given to political prisoners; we will brand them as murderers, and we will refuse them all privileges of communication with outside; we will refuse them all right to write letters or to receive parcels of food or clothing from outside." Now there came a time when members of the Dáil and many outside who are now in opposition to the Government were arrested, and they protested against being treated as criminals. Some of those people who are now arrested have gone through the country for years trying to raise up the minds of the people against the British power. A lot of these dupes have been led astray by the Minister for Justice and the other members of the Executive Council. Now they are arrested and put into prison, and we are told by the Minister for Justice that he does not understand what is the meaning of "political prisoner." He said I might explain the meaning of "political prisoner" and give him an example of what I meant, and you yourself, sir, said that if I drafted the question properly I might succeed in getting an answer.
I did not say any such thing.
You said if I had got assistance I could have put the question in a different way. I do not look for assistance from anybody as to what I am to put before this House. I have no legal adviser behind me. I am not like the Minister for Justice who can have twelve secretaries at the expense of the State. The other Ministers there sitting on the benches have their staff of officials, but the ordinary Deputy has not those great privileges, and consequently we have to draft those questions to the best of our ability without any assistance from the State. I put the question down, sir. It is quite a plain question. It only demands to know the number of prisoners detained in these three jails and whether these prisoners will be allowed to correspond with their friends outside and whether they will be allowed parcels at Christmas. In the years gone by there was always raised a war-cry as to the treatment of political prisoners at the hands of the authorities. Now, to-day, the very people who set up that cry, and by any amount of propaganda throughout the country succeeded in getting these men to carry out their advice, tell us these men are not to be treated as political prisoners. I hold that that is unfair and unjust. I do say that that man or woman who commits a crime against the State should not be treated as a common criminal. I know that it is right for the Minister for Justice and the Executive Council to arrest men according to the Acts passed by the Oireachtas. They can arrest the entire country and these men can be treated as criminals. The Minister for Justice can have all the men who are against the State arrested this week. But that would be going too far. I ask the Minister to give some explanation as to the intention of the Executive Council with regard to these men and as to whether they will treat them as political prisoners.
When I suggested to the Deputy that he might get assistance in drafting a question I had in mind the assistance of officers of the Dáil who are paid out of public funds and who are always willing—as, probably, Deputy Lyons knows better than any other Deputy—to assist Deputies in drafting motions or questions, or any other matter to be brought before the Dáil. That is the kind of assistance that I contemplated, and I suggest that the more it is used the less waste of time there will be.
I am of opinion that Deputy Lyons has made an unanswerable case, in the sense that I am unable to answer whatever case he has made. I do not quite know what it is. He was entirely vague as to the class of prisoner to whom he wished to refer. He used throughout his statement the very vague expression, "political offences," and consistently refused to give, or attempt to give, any more precise definition as to the kind of offence he wished to have covered. In the absence of fuller information from Deputy Lyons, I do not know that I should attempt to say very much. The position with regard to correspondence and the getting of parcels, food, etc., from outside is as follows:—The only prisoners permitted to receive food from outside are prisoners awaiting trial and prisoners expressly directed by the court or by statute to be placed in the first division. First division prisoners are permitted to write and receive one letter each week. Prisoners in the second division are permitted to write and receive one letter each fortnight. Prisoners in the third division are permitted to write and receive one letter once a month. The question whether a prisoner is placed in the first, second. or third division is entirely a matter for the court, subject to the qualifications that for a few offences, such as sedition, seditious libel, or contempt of court, prisoners must be placed in the first division.
Can the Minister say whether prisoners who have been sentenced to one, two or three years' imprisonment, say for commandeering a motor car—an offence for which a large number are at present detained—are treated as political prisoners and allowed to receive correspondence and parcels?
The Dáil adjourned at 3.40 p.m. until Tuesday, 30th November.