Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 1 Jul 1927

Vol. 20 No. 4

IN COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 6—REVENUE DEPARTMENT.

Mr. BLYTHE

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £466,000 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1928, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí na Roinne Ioncuim.

That a sum not exceeding £466,000 he granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1928, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Revenue Department.

Deputies will notice that there is not any very substantial change in the amount of the estimate this year as compared with last year. The activities of the Revenue Department cover a very wide field. There is not merely the actual collection of the customs, revenue, income tax, death duties and various stamp duties, but the main part of the administration of old age pensions. That is a very substantial duty. As a matter of fact, about half the travelling and subsistence costs in connection with the work of the Department arise in connection with old age pensions work. In addition to those main functions of collecting taxation and administering old age pensions, there are a great many other duties: the prevention of the importation of all sorts of forbidden articles, obscene literature, lottery advertisements, plumage of birds, shaving brushes from certain countries, dangerous drugs, certain types of matches, the regulation of the importation of explosives and firearms, plants of various sorts from countries where there is disease, or plants likely to bring disease. There is also the enforcement of the Merchandise Marks Act, which enables and requires the revenue authorities to detain goods that are marked in such a way as, amongst other things, to give the impression that they are manufactured here when not manufactured here. There is also the enforcement of health and quarantine regulations and certain duties in connection with alien immigration; duties in connection with wreckage and the disposal of it; the registration of ships and fishing boats, and also, on an agency basis for the Department of Industry and Commerce. duties in connection with the engagement and discharge of seamen. In certain places also light dues are collected, and in Cork and some other harbours, harbour dues are collected by the Revenue Authorities. In other years there has been a considerable increase in the staff required by the Revenue Commissioners. There is no substantial change this year, because of the fact that no taxation changes were made or contemplated in the Budget.

Major COOPER

There has been a substantial increase in the secretariat —an increase of something like 20 persons. There were 170 last year and there are 190 this year. Could the Minister explain that?

Mr. DAVIN

I want to ask the Minister for some information regarding a large number, a couple of hundred, I think, of young men who were employed when the tariffs first came into existence. I do not raise this matter in any critical spirit, but I think that some statement is due from the Minister, and that he should let these men know what is the intention of the Revenue Commissioners regarding their future conditions of unemployment. I saw circulars issued some time ago that these men were employed on a year's probation, at the end of which, if they were found satisfactory, they were to be considered for permanent appointment. The salary attached to the position is £3 per week, and the employment is temporary. I suggest to the Revenue Department that the conditions of the work which these people are carrying out are bad for the State and not fair to the men concerned.

I have had an opportunity from time to time of seeing the work some of these men do, and I do not think I am unfair to anybody when I suggest that men who are entrusted with very important work of this kind, where the salary is small, are thrown in the way of temptation in many matters. I think the Minister knows perfectly well what I am referring to. In any case the men, such as they are—they number about 200—are entitled to know, after being employed so long, why their position is not more secure and why the conditions under which they were originally employed, have not been complied with. I hope the Minister will make up his mind to take a decision in the very near future and let these men know where they stand, whether or not they are going to be placed on a permanent basis or whether or not they are to be left with the miserable wage of £3 per week with the usual deductions.

Mr. VAUGHAN

I want to draw the Minister's attention to an item in this Estimate—the Estate Duty Office —with regard to taking out administration and making registration in that office. I think they have acted in a high-handed way in overcharging for stamp duties and registration. I would refer to one case particularly, in regard to the registration of a coursing club. About three weeks ago, the club made out an agreement and sent it on to the Estate Duty Office. They got a reply from the Commissioners asking them to forward a sum of £7 10s. to get the club registered. If they act in that way in every case, I think the people will not stand it. They should be fair and honest with every person. About four or five months ago, to my own knowledge, there were six coursing clubs registered in the Estate Office, and the usual fee was only ten shillings. I cannot see why they should now charge a coursing club £7 10s. to be registered, which sum they demanded to be forwarded to them within ten days. I think that is very unfair and very unjust to the people. It shows that the Commissioners are carrying on in a very high-handed manner, in trying to force people to pay them money which they are not entitled to get. I would ask the Minister to look into this matter and see that justice and fair play are given to all parties.

Mr. JOHNSON

Deputy Davin has referred to the position of temporary preventive men. I want to follow that up by referring to another class of men under sub-head A—the case of Customs watchers. I was approached some time ago, on behalf of these men, to make representations to the Minister. I hesitated doing so. but finally promised to do so when the Estimates would come forward. I think there is a case that I would ask the Minister to take into special consideration and meet the claims of these 77 men. They are seeking certain ameliorations in their conditions, and primarily they are seeking to be placed on the establishment. There is one point particularly which was placed before me, and which I consider requires to be stressed. Deputy Davin has referred to the temporary preventive men, to the particular responsibilities they are faced with, and—shall I say—the temptations which low-wage men in their positions are liable to succumb to, in certain circumstances. That applies equally, and perhaps with more insistence, to these watchers. They are men who are employed usually in guarding goods in Custom warehouses, on ships, and they are placed more or less in control for the time being, and there is a certain responsibility. Although it may not be what one would call a high executive post, it is undoubtedly a position, where men ought to feel they are secure and have the protective value that is usually ascribed to superannuation expectations. These men are not entitled to superannuation.

It has often been claimed in regard to the provision of superannuation, that it is a protection, that men have a particular regard for hopes of superannuation, and that it is thereby an insurance for their good behaviour while in the service. I put that point to the Minister, and ask him to give consideration to the claim of this small group of men who in all kinds of weather are required to follow Customs officers. When these officers are obliged to leave and to transfer their attention to other work, the watchers are left more or less, to keep guard. I, therefore, press the Minister, without going into detail, to give consideration to the case this small group of men is making, and I leave it at that, with the hope that consideration will result in the satisfaction of the demands of this body.

Mr. ANTHONY

I wish to refer to an item which comes under the Merchandise Marks Act, and to ask the Minister to see that the best efforts of his Department be directed against imported printing and lithographic matter not bearing an imprint of the place of origin. It is common knowledge in the South that agents from foreign firms are touting for orders. In many cases, whilst they do not suggest that these orders will be executed at home, the merchants, traders and professional men who give the orders are led to believe that the printing and the lithographic work will be executed in the Free State.

Now, I have not at the moment with me the figures as regards imported printing and lithographic matter coming into the Saorstát, but I shall in the near future have occasion to refer to the matter when, possibly, the fiscal policy of the Saorstát will come up for consideration. What we complain of in Cork is this: That notwithstanding the fact that a large amount of imported printing and lithographic matter does not bear an imprint denoting its place of origin, it gets through the Custom House and is delivered to the consignee. I do not suggest for a moment that that is intentional on the part of the officials, but the fact remains that when officials in the execution of their duty hold up some of this imported printing and lithographic matter, in answer to the urgent appeal or demands of the consignees, they frequently release this matter without further inquiry. That is having a very injurious effect on the printing and lithographic industry of the South, and what I am stating as applying to Cork in this respect applies equally to Dublin and throughout the whole Saorstát. The country at the moment is being absolutely flooded with imported printing and lithographic matter. One of the Deputies, on a Vote yesterday, mentioned imported prayer books and printing of that kind. One of these days it will be a matter for very serious consideration for this Dáil to see whether something should not be done to prevent, or at least to limit, further importation into the country of printing and lithographic matter. I have not by me the figures with regard to unemployment in the printing and kindred trades, but without being too indefinite I should say that the figure is nearly fifty per cent. of those engaged in the industry. The fact that people are being thrown out of employment is largely due to the fact that imported printing and lithographic matter is coming in without apparently any attempt being made to stop it.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I do not like to interrupt the Deputy, but is he alleging that matter is coming in here without any indication of origin or with a false indication of origin?

Mr. ANTHONY

Without any indication of origin.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

That is quite right. That cannot be stopped.

Mr. ANTHONY

What I want to suggest is that, even in cases where the place of origin is mentioned, it is frequently mentioned on the outside of the container, but the matter within the container does not bear an imprint of its place of origin.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

And need not.

Mr. ANTHONY

I know that much cannot be done now on these estimates, but what I do suggest is that the Minister should give instructions, if he has not already done so, to see that as far as possible the authorities will carry out the duties which devolve upon them.

ACTING-CHAIRMAN

Is the Deputy suggesting that new legislation should be passed to deal with the matter, because if he is that cannot be done on these estimates.

Mr. ANTHONY

I am not suggesting that, but what I do suggest is that the existing legislation should be carried out by the officers responsible.

Mr. JASPER WOLFE

I have listened to the observations that have been made in connection with the Estate Duty Office. I wish to make a few references to the Stamp Duty Office in which the practice has been growing up of charging something like £7 10s. Od. under a law which is exactly the same as was in force when the charge was only 10s. I think that the Stamp Office would need to be looked after in that respect. In the Estate Duty Office things are rapidly drifting into a state of chaos. The chaos is brought about in this way. If at the present time an executor under a will takes out probate in this country—it often happens that he has to take it out in England, and I might say that things have come to such a pass that men go to England to do so for their own protection—it means that he has to take out two grants of probate. He then proceeds to sell the property left to him. He divides the property amongst the legatees. It may be that in a year or two years afterwards a demand is made upon him for £100 or £200, being the valuation that some official sent down two years after has put on the estate. That is a kind of thing that ought to be stopped because every day it is having the effect of making the administration of estates in Ireland almost impossible.

Every day it is forcing people to leave this country with their money. They take their money away and live out of the country. They are afraid to put their money into the purchase of property in this country because they fear that if they do so complications may afterwards follow and prevent them, if they so desire, from realising their property. That has happened. Money is flowing out of the country every day. It is going from the South of Ireland and from my own impoverished constituency. It is going over to England. Very often it is being sent thereby Free State officials and others who have seen these instances of maladministration of the Estate Duty Office in Ireland. People have seen these instances of estates having been divided up and of claims being put in long afterwards—claims for the payment of estate duty long after the estate had been administered. I realise, of course, that the Estate Duty Office. like the Income Tax Office, is a good cockshot for anyone, but it is an office that, I think, could be greatly improved. These claims for the payment of estate duty ought to be made at the earliest opportunity so that the executors can carry out their duties and not have all this money wending its way across to England, as is happening at present. If an executor takes out administration here he has to pay, first, the full estate duty on the Irish and the English assets. The Irish may predominate. What he does now is, he takes out a grant first in England and then comes back to Ireland and takes out a grant as regards the residue with the least possible delay, and all because he is afraid of what may happen here. I think that as regards the taking out of administration and probates, executors ought to be met in a reasonable manner. At present the work is not conducted in a reasonable manner. As regards the Estate Duty Office, I express the hope that the work there will. be carried out on lines different to those prevailing at present. If the work is carried on in an improved manner it will help to restore confidence in the people as well as in every public department we have.

Mr. HASLETT

I desire to call the attention of the Minister for Finance to the regulations made in the beginning of this year with regard to motor-cars used for business purposes and coming into the Free State. Those of us who reside in the Border counties have been brought more into contact with this than those who live further south. It is a matter that affects our trade very much, especially farmers. The regulation is that duty must be paid on a car entering the Free State and absolutely without any hope of return. The Custom officer on duty on the first morning that regulation came into operation told the people coming across the Border that he had been instructed that farmers coming into the Free State in motor cars to attend one of our fairs fell into the same category as other business people if they were found asking the price of a beast on one of our fairs and that they were liable on conviction to the forfeiture of their cars and a fine as well.

The result has been that the fairs of Monaghan and Clones especially have suffered very much from this. The time the fair starts is usually before the trains arrive, and people come across the Border in motor cars. On the first morning that the regulations came into force in the town of Monaghan, where there are usually from forty to fifty cars conveying cattle buyers, there were only four. This was repeated in the other Border towns. We feel that this is a point very well worth considering. A few minutes ago the Minister for Industry and Commerce made the point, I think very properly, concerning railways, that trade might be altogether judged from the revenue got from the railways. Our trade depends upon people coming in to do business with us. We want people to come in and do business with us, and to give them facilities to do so in every possible way. I bring this matter to the notice of the Minister, and I ask him if the same arrangement that holds good in regard to us farmers going out of the Free State into Northern Ireland, and which was in operation on this side before the beginning of the year, could not now operate so that the farmers and dealers on the other side, but only a few miles away, could now come in to our fairs and pursue their business there as traders as usual.

Mr. J.J. BYRNE

I ask the Minister for Finance to consider sympathetically the case of the nine clerical officers, the particulars of which I have placed before him for his consideration, at the earliest possible moment. I think if he will consider that case, that the minimum salary of £70, plus bonus, has been paid to these nine men who passed in fairly high places in the examination held for these appointments, while their co-examinees received salaries of £90 plus bonus, he will see that something should be done. These men are discharging satisfactorily the work entrusted to them; they were aged from 23 years upwards when they came into the service. Boys entering the Civil Service at 18 years of age receive the same remuneration, and I think the Minister will find that the attitude towards the men for whom I plead was taken upon the plea that they had not before entering the Civil Service been on ordinary clerical work that came within the accepted terms. I ask the Minister to consider as sympathetically as he possibly can the case of these nine men who, if these salaries are continued, will not reach the maximum until they are 42 years. I think, in view of the very sympathetic attitude which we had yesterday on the remuneration of Civil Service officials, that a payment, such as a minimum of £70 and bonus to men who qualified educationally and satisfied their departments in every way, is not satisfactory, and I hope that the Minister will at least put these men on an equal footing with their co-examinees.

Mr. BLYTHE

The increase in the secretariat to which Deputy Cooper referred was due in part to the increased duties in connection with the Betting Tax which came into operation after last year's Estimates, and in part to the temporary increase in connection with the double tax relief agreement. As Deputies know, the old system of getting relief from double taxation has been departed from and a new system has been initiated. While that new system will save a good deal of work, at the time of transfer, when some of the complications of the old system were added on to the new, temporarily there has been an increase of work owing to the change over. Then there were some officers on loan—an officer lent to the Land Commission had to be replaced. With reference to Preventive men, an examination has been held, and of the temporary Preventive men 69 have been established. I agree with Deputy Davin it is undesirable to have any great number of unestablished men upon this duty. I think the duties of Preventive men are ordinarily as responsible, although not so varied, as the duty of, say, a policeman, and that consequently the keeping of a great number of Preventive men unestablished is not a desirable thing.

So far as "Watchers" are concerned, I have not given any consideration previously to their case, as I have in the case of Auxiliary Preventive men. The duties of the "Watchers" are lighter, and, I think, less responsible than the duties of the Preventive men. There is also the fact that in the British Service at least the custom has been to employ ex-servicemen and people with pensions as Watchers. However, I shall examine the case of the Watchers and see if there is anything that can be done in the matter.

I was not able to understand Deputy Vaughan's complaint, and the only thing I could do would be to ask him to see me about it so that I might find out exactly what is wrong, if there is anything wrong, and find out exactly what it is he complains about. I think Deputy Anthony was complaining about an excess of printed matter being allowed to come in and that it was matter that could be detained under the Merchandise Marks Act. If any cases are cited to me of printing that should have been detained under that Act being allowed in, I shall see that steps are taken to put an end to that, but if on the printed matter there does not appear anything that would mislead the public as to its origin, I do not think it can be detained under the Merchandise Marks Act.

Deputy Wolfe complained of the Estate Duties Office. At any rate he introduced a new note, because generally complaints have been made in regard to the collection of income tax, and I have not previously had a complaint in connection with the collection of estate duties. The Deputy complained that the administration of the office is causing loss of revenue to the country. Now if such loss is occurring, I would be most anxious to stop it, and I should like the Deputy to give me two or three cases where he says the executor or administrator was not fairly treated, and enable me to conduct an investigation into the matter.

It would not be possible to return to the old regulations as to the admission of motor cars across the Border. There is no doubt the old regulation was unfair to people who had to use cars here that paid duties, where people living across the Border and owning cars who did not pay duty were actually competing with them from day to day. If there is any hardship imposed by the existing regulations I would be always willing to consider it and to see if any means to obviate that hardship could be found. I could not hold out any hope to the Deputy that we will go back to the old arrangements.

Mr. HASLETT

In the case of private farmers' cars, not hackney cars?

Mr. BLYTHE

The matter has quite a lot of ramifications. The fact that it is a private car, if it is used for business purposes, is no reason why it should be admitted free of duty, because private cars used for business purposes in many cases may be competing with the private car here which has paid duty. It would be quite impossible to allow farmers' cars across generally. Whether it would be possible to make any arrangement that on specific days where fairs are concerned farmers' cars could be allowed to cross is another matter.

Mr. HASLETT

That is a point worth consideration.

Mr. BLYTHE

I would be prepared to consider representations on that point. I am not familiar, although I may have seen reference to it, with the case Deputy Byrne raised. I suggest that he should put down a question to me with regard to the nine officers he mentioned.

Mr. J.J. BYRNE

I have already submitted a memorandum.

Mr. BLYTHE

I have not dealt with it personally, or else I dealt with it so long ago that I have forgotten it.

Vote put and agreed to.

Ordered: That progress be reported.

The Dáil went out of Committee.

Progress reported. Committee to sit again on Tuesday, 5th July, at 3 p.m.

The Dáil adjourned at 4 p.m., until Tuesday, 5th July, at 3 p.m.