Deputy Kerlin has given notice that he would raise a question on the motion for the adjournment.
ADJOURNMENT DEBATE—SEIZURE OF FIANNA EIREANN HANDBOOKS.
I wish to raise a question about what I consider to be the partisan treatment of Fianna Eireann, and to ask the Minister for Justice to explain the Government's attitude or policy towards that organisation. In answer to my question this afternoon in connection with the seizure of the official handbooks of Fianna Eireann, the Minister told me that the reason these handbooks were seized was because they were of a treasonable character. He afterwards explained that by "treasonable character" he meant that they contained certain references to drill and rifle exercises. He also suggested that Fianna Eireann was affiliated, or connected, with some other organisation, but he did not definitely state what other organisation. Referring also to the official handbooks of the Baden-Powell organisation, he stated that these handbooks contained no references to drill, or the use of the rifle. I suppose we may take it definitely that there were no other reasons for the seizure of these handbooks. In that case, may I ask the Minister why at the time these Fianna Eireann handbooks were seized he did not take steps to seize or prohibit the sale of certain books of which I have copies here, "Scouting for Boys," and the "Manual of Drill for Boy Scouts," which are issued on behalf of the Boy Scouts' Association, more commonly known in this country as the Baden-Powell Scouts. The former book contains a section dealing with the use of the rifle.
Which book?
The former, "Scouting for Boys." The other deals very thoroughly with every form of drill. In this matter, I ask, is there a distinction on the part of the Government between Fianna Eireann and other Boy Scout organisations? Is there to be one law for the boys who have declared their allegiance to the Irish Republic and another law for the boys who have declared their allegiance to the King of England? From the question put to the Minister, it can be seen that on two occasions the houses of members of Fianna Eireann were raided and copies of the official handbook seized. There have been other raids on the houses of members of the organisation, particularly on the house of the General Secretary, and the General Secretary and another member of the Central Executive were arrested on the 12th July last in connection with the murder of the late Mr. Kevin O'Higgins. They were detained for a fortnight, although no evidence whatsoever was produced to connect them with that crime. On February 25th, 1926, twelve members of Fianna Eireann were charged at Wexford Circuit Court with illegal drilling under the Treason Act. They were found not guilty by the jury and released. On June 21st, 1926, four members of the organisation were charged at Cork Circuit Court under the Treason Act with giving instructions in the performance of illegal drilling. In this case, the jury without leaving the box, found the boys not guilty and they were discharged.
I have here a report which was forwarded to me by the General Secretary of Fianna Eireann with reference to recent happenings in Cork, which I shall read for the benefit of the Minister and the House. This report is dated the 30th October, 1927.
While the Baden-Powell Scouts are allowed to organise and drill without interference, the following is a sample of the treatment being meted out to the Fianna Eireann (Boy Scouts of Ireland):—
Whilst a party of Fianna were performing scout drill near Passage West, Co. Cork, on Sunday, 2nd October, they were approached by a member of the local Civic Guards named Tracy. The latter searched the Secretary, Charles O'Mahoney, and deprived him of a number of papers and books relating to the organisation which he had in his possession at the time. O'Mahoney questioned the Guard as to his authority for so doing, and was informed by the latter that the Fianna was now an illegal organisation under the "Public Safety Act." O'Mahoney challenged the accuracy of this statement, and accompanied the Guard to the local barracks, where the sergeant informed them that the Fianna was not an illegal organisation but would be declared so if trouble ever arose in the country. The sergeant also directed the Guard to return the books and papers taken from O'Mahoney.
On the 14th October, Detective Officer Breen, of Cobh, visited Passage West, and during a conversation with O'Mahoney informed him that the District Scout-Master, C. O'Leary, of Cork, was a cur, a cad, and a fool. He further threatened that he would break the necks of any members of the Fianna whom he would find drilling. On the same day Breen told the above-mentioned C. O'Leary that it would be advisable for him to keep away from Passage, and that he (O'Leary) would "fall into it" some night if he was not careful.
Are these various instances that I have just given to be taken as an indication of the Government's attitude towards Fianna Eireann? For the information of Deputies, I will read out a few lines from the Constitution and Rules of Fianna Eireann.
"Fianna Eireann is an independent national organisation for boys, with clearly defined objects. It is governed from within its ranks according to its constitution, which must be observed by all branches of the organisation. Its objects are to organise the boys of Ireland, and train them mentally and physically that their services may be utilised in the best interests of the Republic. and to maintain the unity of Ireland."
Their programme includes citizenship, Irish language, Irish history, first-aid, signalling, music and drama, scouting, scout-drill, physical culture, Gaelic games and athletics. I do not think the Minister for Justice can find anything treasonable in that list. The Minister, in reply to my question, referred to drill and rifle exercises. Take drill. Drill is not peculiar to military forces. As far as I know, it is used by the Fianna Eireann scoutmasters to train their sluaighte or groups, and to move them from place to place in a smart and orderly manner. Turning to the Manual of Drill, issued on the behalf of the Baden-Powell organisation, the chief scout of that organisation, referring to drill, says:
"Scouts have to be drilled individually to enable them to be moved quickly from one point to another in good order. Drill also sets them up, and makes them smart and quick."
He goes on to speak of the physical advantages of drill. I may say that this particular book issued by the Baden-Powell organisation contains far more instructions on drill than does the Fianna Eireann handbook. As far as the articles on rifle exercises in the Fianna handbook are concerned, I may say that these particular articles were not used; they were retained in the handbook for what I might describe as purely sentimental reasons. The articles on rifle exercises and on drill were written in 1914 by Captain Con. Colbert, who, as some Deputies may not know, was executed in 1916 for allegiance to the Irish Republic.
The following is one of the rules of Fianna Eireann and relates to firearms: "The use of firearms throughout the organisation is strictly forbidden, and no officer or member of Fianna Eireann shall teach the use of same or deliver lectures regarding the usages of same." The Baden-Powell Scouts, on the other hand, are not forbidden the use of firearms. With them a proficiency test for marksmanship is accepted as a qualifying test for a first-class scout, whereas in Fianna Eireann there is no such test. Turning to this handbook of the Baden-Powell organisation, "Scouting for Boys," on page 286 the boys are told: "If you mean to carry out your motto and ‘be prepared' for all events, you will do well to practice marksmanship," and on page 287 it says: "To be able to shoot well a great secret is to hold your rifle properly; if it leans over a little bit to one side or the other the bullet will fly low over to that side. Keep your left arm well underneath the rifle to support it, and hold it well into the shoulder with your left hand." I do not propose to read all this——
Common sense would tell you that you must hold your rifle straight if you are to hit anything.
He is holding it straight now.
I have no intention at this hour of the night to bore the Minister, or any other member of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party with remarks as to the use of the rifle. Having placed these facts before the House, I ask: Why should there be any distinction shown between Fianna Eireann and any other boy scout organisation? I would ask the Minister, therefore, to state the policy, or the attitude of the Government, with regard to Fianna Eireann, now and in the future.
I do not propose to trench on the Minister's time for any prolonged period, but as I occupy an official position in what Deputy Kerlin calls the Baden-Powell Boy Scouts' organisation I should like to correct one or two misapprehensions. He talks about the scouts as a national organisation, but that organisation is an international one; there are not only Baden-Powell Boy Scouts in Great Britain but in the United States, and I have seen them in such different places as Greece, Egypt and the Fiji Islands, all following out the handbooks that Deputy Kerlin has quoted. He quoted two books, one "Scouting for Boys," and the other "The Manual of Drill for Boy Scouts," and he told us that the latter includes every form of drill. Does it include drill with arms, beyond little sticks?
If I might explain——
I am afraid I do not know the book. I am very ignorant about it, and I ought to know it.
The "Manual of Drill for Boy Scouts" contains every form of drill.
I do not think the Deputy has read the book. I think that that book is simply intended, to use the Deputy's own words, "To enable scout masters to move their scouts quickly and in good order from one point to another." If I am wrong and if Deputy Kerlin will point out anything in it about rifles or bayonets I will bow to him.
I did not suggest that this particular book dealt with rifles. I raised the question to show that the Baden-Powell organisation issued a handbook which covers the question of drill, just as Fianna Eireann issued theirs.
I admit that. Now we come back to the other one, "Scouting for Boys." Deputy Kerlin said, with perfect truth, that there is a part of that book that deals with the subject of marksmanship. I think there are two and a half pages out of three hundred and fifty.
If it goes home it is all right.
And Deputy Kerlin again, as far as my memory serves me, quotes quite accurately. But there were one or two omissions. He left out the provision that marksmanship was valuable for people who lived in savage and barbarous countries. Deputy Kerlin has got the book and he can verify that. Then it went on to comment that marksmanship could be very easily practised with a cross-bow, that you do not need a rifle at all. Will Deputy Kerlin look at the book and see if the bow is mentioned in it?
Yes, but that does not take away from the fact that the use of the rifle is definitely described in that book.
I have admitted that. The book also describes the use of the cross-bow. Will Deputy Kerlin look at the next page of that book? If my memory is right, the next job after learning marksmanship is to learn to help the police. Is that in the Fianna Eireann book? I can assure Deputies opposite that what are described as the Baden-Powell Boy Scouts are not drilling with arms and have no intention of drilling with arms of any kind. They play a certain amount of football and do a certain amount of drill with their legs, etc.
rose.
The whole object of this procedure is to get a reply from the Minister, and he must be given time to reply.
Was there any necessity for the last Deputy to speak? Whether it is two pages or twenty pages that are contained in that book belonging to the Baden-Powell Boy Scouts' organisation relative to rifle drill, they are taught now to use a rifle, and I myself have seen them use it. Furthermore, the portion dealing with the help that the Baden-Powell Scouts should give the police is absolutely correct, and those who have lived in the Six Counties, called Northern Ireland, know what help they have given the police.
Might I put to the Minister one thing which probably will be information to him? In the daily Press I was able to read of the prosecution of groups of Fianna Eireann boys in Dublin, Wexford and Cork, but at the same time practically every Saturday afternoon during certain months of the year I can see at the back of my residence in Stephen's Green groups of Baden-Powell Boy Scouts and of the Protestant Boys' Brigade engaging in all forms of drill, not with arms, while lads in Wexford, Cork and Dublin were arrested for drilling without arms. Why should there be any difference here?
It is very difficult for me in the seven minutes at my disposal to deal with the various matters which have been raised here. I will, however, begin with what is the real question— as to whether the seizure of these books was or was not justified. It is an offence and it is treason to drill for military purposes, and for these only, but ordinary drilling is allowed. Ordinary drilling is a very correct and proper thing for boys to engage in— that is harmless drill. But drilling with a definite military objective is a perfectly different thing, and it is not lawful for any assembly of persons to practise or train or drill themselves or be trained or drilled in the use of arms or the performance of military exercises, evolutions or manoeuvres. I turn to what is the constitution of the Fianna Eireann, and I discover the object is—I am reading now from the Fianna handbook——
Might I inform the Minister that that is not the existing constitution?
I find it here in the book that calls itself "The Fianna Handbook." (Interruption.)
The Minister must be allowed to proceed.
The book says:—
"To organise the boys of Ireland and train them mentally and physically, that their services may be utilised in the best interests of the Republic, and to maintain the unity of Ireland.
"Means: The training of the youth of Ireland mentally and physically to achieve this object by teaching them scouting and military exercises, Irish history and the Irish language."
Scouting is excellent, Irish history is excellent, the Irish language is excellent, but this teaching young boys military exercises is absolutely wrong.
Is the establishment of the Republic wrong?
The Minister must not be cross-examined if he is to reply.
As to the statement that this body have no arms, I have before me evidence that they have arms. I should like to read an extract from some of the Minutes of this Fianna Eireann organisation.
When did you write them?
Here is one:—
"An order was issued by the G.H.Q. that all arms must be dumped. This order was issued because of the belief that the original dump arms order was misunderstood. It was further directed that all arms in the Dublin Brigade be handed over to the Chief of Staff, who would himself see to their dumping."
A DEPUTY
What is the date of that?
10th January, 1925, was the date of the meeting at which that took place. Where are these dumped arms?
A DEPUTY
Will you prove the Minutes?
I know where the Minutes came from. I have no objection to telling the Deputy where they came from.
A DEPUTY
You are the only one in the House who does.
They came from the house of a Mrs. Gordon, at 167 Strand Road, Sandymount. They purported to be, and I believe they are, and I think every member of the Fianna Fáil Party believes them to be, bona fide minutes of that organisation.
A DEPUTY
How do we know?
Furthermore, they show that there has been inter-communication between this body and another body:
"A communication was received from the Adjutant-General, I.R.A., asking for an acknowledgment of his letter of December 18th, 1924, and inquiring if the Fianna handbooks, for which he had asked in his previous letter, would be sent on to him, for which the Army would pay. They were directed to be taken from the Wood Press since they were then our property."
These books are used not only by one organisation, but also by another military organisation.
"A communication was received from the Director of Intelligence of the I.R.A. asking for information about two boys who stated they were attached to the Fianna. A reply to this letter was sent on by Madame."
"A communication from the Adjutant-General, I.R.A., and dated January 16th was read, in which it was stated that Kerry No. 3 Fianna had not received copies of the Fianna handbook. It was further stated that money had been given by the Army to defray the travelling expenses of delegates to this convention, and requested that this money be handed over to Kerry immediately.
The Quarter-Master General reported that in consequence of the failure of the Army to pay the bill owing to the Wood Press for the Fianna handbook he had been informed by the management of the firm that they intended deducting £2 10s. weekly from his wages until the bill was paid. A long discussion followed, the decision arrived at being that one week be given to the Army to pay this bill. If in that time they had failed to pay it it was decided to raise a loan at the bank to meet the account and to discuss later what action be taken with the Army."
I am going to move the suspension of the Standing Orders.
I want to hear the Minister. The Deputy must not interfere with me.
I only want to get time for the Minister.
("Order,""order.")
I ask the Deputy to sit down.
I have a lot of ground to get over, and it is very hard to get over it. I shall be as brief as I can. Is it possible to contend that there is no connection between these two bodies? As far as this drill book is concerned I can see a great deal in it which is very excellent stuff for boys and I see that a great number of sections in it are most useful and beneficial, but I see a great deal in this book that certainly, in my judgment, is very harmful for boys to be taught at the present time. I discover, in the first place, there is a great deal of drilling not merely ceremonial drill but really military drill, open formation and attack, and that sort of thing, and I discover, moreover, there is this section about rifle exercises. Here is a book which says that the object of this is by military exercise to perfect themselves to achieve a certain purpose. What is that purpose?
A DEPUTY
The independence of Ireland.
Whom are they going to fight? Are they going to exercise themselves by force of arms in upsetting the present Constitution? Is that the object? Perhaps the Deputy opposite will tell me what it means. I find here these rifle exercises. If this is an ordinary scouting organisation and the sole object is to develop the physique of the boys and to teach them woodcraft and all that sort of thing, that is very good for the boys, but why are these rifle exercises brought in? Why are they not deleted? Why does an admittedly military organisation wish to get this book if it is not a useful military handbook?
As far as the other question put to me, about the Baden-Powell Scouts, in any book I have seen dealing with that organisation—I have not gone through them very deeply but I have glanced at them—I could not find anything to justify the statement that they were of a military or semi-military organisation or that they were teaching young men to fight. I can find nothing of that kind in any of these books. It is said that there is a passage on marksmanship. What sort of marksmanship? There are other things in the world to be shot at besides human beings. There are all sorts of game and rabbits. I do not say it is any harm to teach a boy to shoot rabbits or to use a shot gun and shoot a bird. That is the one kind of shooting that would be justifiable and permissible. That is the one kind of shooting which is called sport. There are a great many people in this country who believe in sport. There is another kind of shooting and that is going out and shooting your fellowman. There is only one body of men in any country who could be justified in being trained to do that and these are the regularly trained military forces of the country.
We must now adjourn until to-morrow.
The Dáil rose at 9 p.m. until to-morrow (Thursday) at 3 p.m.