Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 11 Nov 1927

Vol. 21 No. 13

PUBLIC BUSINESS. - ADDITIONAL ESTIMATE—RELIEF SCHEMES.

The Dáil went into Committee on Finance.

MINISTER for FINANCE (Mr. Blythe)

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £150,000 chun íoctha an mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch 31adh Márta, 1928, chun síntiúisí chun fóirithint ar dhíomhaointeas agus ar ghátar.

That a sum not exceeding £150,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1928, for contributions towards the relief of unemployment and distress.

It is a fact that not as many applications have been received this year from local authorities for grants for the relief of distress as we have had in recent years. That, I think, may be attributed in part to the fact that there was no money available for such grants in the Estimates. However, certain applications have been coming in, and I am sure that we will have a considerable number of further schemes submitted to us within a very short time. In most years since the setting up of the Saorstát sums have been allocated for such grants as are now proposed. In the year 1922-23 the sum actually expended was £339,000 odd; in 1923-4 there was none; in 1924-5 there was £380,000 odd; 1925-6, £336,000 odd, and last year there was £30,000 odd. In each of these years greater sums were voted, but the figures that I have given represent the amounts actually expended. In previous years, a certain part of the relief grant was expended on road work. It is not intended on this occasion to expend money on road work, except in a district where no other useful work can be found, and where there is a great deal of unemployment, but as far as possible an attempt will be made to spend the money on other schemes, such as the preparation of sites on which building might afterwards take place, and water or sewerage schemes.

There is just one type of road on which money could be expended, and that is the bog road. In previous years—for instance, 1924-5 and 1925-6 —a good deal of money was very usefully expended in the making of these bog roads, and a great deal of relief was given in districts where there was considerable distress and a very great need of employment. But apart from that particular type of road, the endeavour will be to do other works, because, as has already been explained, a substantial sum of money is available from the Road Fund, and so far as road work is concerned, the endeavour will be to expedite the expending of the money available in that way.

The proposals of local authorities will be considered by the Department of Local Government and recommendations will be made to the Department of Finance. Other proposals may come through the Land Commission which would be responsible for such things as bog roads, or from the Department of Fisheries which might undertake small works to assist navigation—approaches to piers, work on piers or any small marine work that could be carried out. It has happened on several occasions that when an attempt was made to expend the whole sum of money available in the winter season, from say the beginning of December to the end of March, sometimes schemes have had to be undertaken which involved a further vote in the next financial year. It is difficult to expend the exact sum that may be laid down, and have it expeditiously expended. We will try as far as possible to have this sum expended in the financial year, and on the other hand not to undertake work which would either have to be left unfinished or which would involve the provision of substantial sums in the coming year. We do not want to commit ourselves to that. This year, as in previous years, we will endeavour to have the local authorities supply part of the money for any works carried out. Our endeavour always has been to have the money made available by way of a grant supplemented out of the funds of the local authorities. We have sometimes said to local authorities, "You are contemplating a proposed drainage scheme and we will give you 25 per cent. of that." As far as we could we have generally tried to decline to sanction works carried out solely out of the grant. We have tried to get the local authorities to put some of their own moneys into them so that the amount of the grant made available might be stretched.

It is, of course, impossible to provide by means of this grant for every sort of unemployment. There are large numbers of people unemployed who cannot be reached by any form of public works. They are not suitable themselves for taking part in public works. On the other hand the experience is that where money can be put into circulation in a district by means of public works, even those who cannot be employed and who do not benefit directly, do get opportunities themselves of some employment arising out of the expenditure of money and in that way distress, generally speaking, is relieved.

Mr. MORRISSEY

I want to say that in my opinion the sum mentioned by the Minister for Finance is hopelessly inadequate. There is no doubt, to my mind at least, that there is as much distress now as there was at any time from 1923 onwards. To think that you are going to give relief that is going to be of any use with a sum of £150,000 from State funds, is to think something that is not right. The Minister implied in his speech that because he had not received as many applications from local authorities, therefore, it followed there was not as much distress this year as in previous years. I have no doubt now when the local authorities get to know that the Government are going to provide a sum of money, the Minister for Finance will have more applications this year than in previous years. I wonder if the Minister, in making that statement, had in mind any application that had been made to the Land Commission for relief schemes. This sum of £150,000 gives an average of £6,000 per county. If we take it that there are, say, only 60,000 people unemployed, and I am sure the number is at least that, the sum mentioned by the Minister works out at less than £3 for each person unemployed, and that is expected to carry them over the winter. The Minister, of course, made the statement that the local authorities will be expected to put up some money themselves. The local authorities, particularly in the areas where distress is greatest, are not in a position to put up money themselves and the Minister ought to keep that in mind. No member of the House, other than a member of the Executive Council, can move to have the Vote increased, but I would ask the Minister to face up to the fact that there is as much distress this year as in any of the years from 1923 up to the present. I think that the Government ought to make as much provision for the relief of distress this year as they did in previous years.

I suppose we will be told that there is a sum of one and a half million pounds available for roads. In that connection I would like to say that a considerable sum of that money has been ear-marked for certain classes of work which cannot be carried out in the winter months, such as tar-spraying and tar-painting. Work of that kind cannot be done on roads in the winter months, and, therefore, a considerable portion of that money will be held up until the summer and to that extent it is useless. I cannot understand how the Government arrived at this figure of £150,000 or why they think it is adequate. I must only come to the conclusion that they are not aware of the actual position of the unemployed in the country because if they were they would certainly realise that that sum would not provide the necessary relief. From what I have heard of the conditions in Dublin city and county and in Cork city I believe that the whole of this sum of £150,000 could be given to these two counties and cities, and that it would not be sufficient to give relief to all those in need of it, not to talk of the rest of the country. Certainly an average of £6,000 per county is not going to give the relief that is necessary, and I hope the House will ask the Minister to increase the grant.

Major COOPER

With a great deal of what Deputy Morrissey said I agree, but there was one fallacy that he gave utterance to. He said that the local authorities in many cases could not afford to undertake work themselves. Is it not exactly the same with the Government? There is no great bottomless purse into which the Minister for Finance can put his hand.

Mr. MORRISSEY

What I meant to convey was that many of the local authorities had exhausted their borrowing powers, and that, therefore, they are not in a position to borrow money even if they were inclined to do so.

Major COOPER

I observe that Deputy Morrissey did not exactly say that. Of course the Government have not exhausted their borrowing powers, but they cannot go on borrowing indefinitely. Eventually the interest on the loan will come out of the pockets of the ratepayers and the taxpayers; in other words the ordinary citizens of this country, and that is why more money may not be made available, though I entirely agree with Deputy Morrissey as to the great distress that does exist. I hope more money will be made available, and that this is but a first instalment. Deputy Morrissey will remember, I think, that in 1924 we had the supplementary estimates for the relief of distress. If this money is all expended before or soon after Christmas, I hope the Minister will not hesitate in the spring to bring forward another estimate. I was not clear from the Minister's statement if this money will be made available for the purpose of providing water supplies for towns which have not got water supplies at present. There are one or two schemes in Balbriggan and Skerries, for example. The local council provided their schemes, but owing to the fact that the area of charge is wide and covers the rural area, in which the people are not interested in those schemes, they have not been able to carry them out. If a certain amount of help were given, not the whole cost of the scheme—a little bit of sugar helps the dose down—the fact that a free grant was obtained from the Government might persuade both the guardians and the other authorities to supply the remainder by loan. The same applies to the provision of drainage and sanitation for dwelling houses. There is a scheme of that character badly needed in Swords, and if this money were available it would be useful.

There is another suggestion which might trench on the borders of order, but I hope you, sir, will be generous. I understand within the next six weeks a large number of men, amounting to more than 1,000, are to be discharged from the National Army. They will come on the labour market at a bad time when it is already flooded. We are not so generous to our soldiers as other armies. In the British Army a man going to be discharged receives a month's leave with full pay and ration allowance to enable him to look for a job. I suggest if there is any delay in having schemes put forward by local authorities, some of this money might be placed at the disposal of the Minister for Finance to enable him to give leave to men going to be discharged and to give them a month to find a job. It is hopeless to find a job from a place like the Curragh or Finner Camp. A job is only found by a man who goes to look for it, and he has to look very hard at present. We ought to treat our soldiers with a little more generosity than we do. I believe if some of the money were made available it would relieve the hardship likely to be caused by excessive discharges at this period of the year.

Mr. M.J. KENNEDY

I agree with Deputy Morrissey that the sum is not adequate. I know a bigger sum could be supplied. I am not going into that point now, but I am going into its administration. I believe it will be administered through the county councils. Are the engineers of the county councils to have any independence in this? Are we going to have the system of political graft that we had for the past three or four years when the local county councillor of the area said who shall and shall not be employed, the guiding principle being what way a person voted or was going to vote? Leaving out the question of the National Army altogether, there are men with large families of from seven to ten, and in my own area, in work on the roads, these men have been disregarded and single men put on who had no connection with any army simply because a local councillor has power to say to the surveyor or engineer that they shall go on and no one else. If we have any humanity, and if we are not out for a system of political graft, the guiding principle in the administration of this grant should be the most necessitous cases.

Mr. SHAW

As a member of the Westmeath County Council, and one who has a considerable amount to do with the road grants, I beg to say that they have passed a resolution that married men with families get first preference for employment on the roads, and that single men with dependents get second preference. If there is any fault to be found the matter ought to be brought before the county council. I agree, to a certain extent, that it has not been carried out as strictly as it should be. I have given innumerable recommendations to people for employment on the roads, and I challenge any man in Westmeath to say that I ever asked his political opinion, or whom he voted for. This is a subject on which I could say a good deal, because I have been challenged repeatedly with the very opposite side of the story, that the persons employed are put on by gangers who have certain other political opinions, and I believe that on the balance they have had far more employment than those who support the Cumann na nGaedheal Party. That is a matter I intended to raise at the last meeting of the county councils, but I had to be here and could not do it. I am in agreement that the poorer the man is and the larger his family, the more the preference that should be given to him. I hope to be able to attend the next meeting and ask why that rule has not been more strictly carried out.

I would like to say a few words in connection with the grant that has been given. I agree that the amount may be all right for a first instalment, but from my knowledge of the unemployment that exists it will not go very far towards the provision of employment even for the limited number who may get work. At present, on the roads in Westmeath, most of the men are only working one week in the month in the rural areas; particularly owing to the fact that farmers are in as bad a position as labourers, there is no employment on the land. In the labourers' cottages all those men are unemployed. I suggested the other day that, as being the Chairman of the Board of Health, I would find myself in a difficult position during the winter because the sum available will not be able to prevent starvation in that county. Unless we are able to do something in connection with obtaining an advance we cannot put even 5/- a week into a house which has nothing going into it.

I intended to mention a point on Deputy Redmond's motion connected with this. £1,300,000 was set aside for the building of ex-soldiers' houses. I am not in a position to say how much of that was spent, but I am in a position to say that 8 houses were passed for Athlone. An inspector was sent there six months ago to look after the sites. He went and nothing since was heard about it.

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

Has the Minister for Finance any control over this? We cannot bring the Minister to book for things he has no control over.

Mr. SHAW

It would do a great deal towards providing employment. The position is very serious and the sum provided will not carry us further than Christmas. I hope the Minister will provide an additional relief grant, as he did last year.

Mr. KENT

I ask the Minister to consider the advisability of allocating portion of this money for a scheme of reafforestation. This is the time of the year when such work could be put into operation. In the district of East Cork, and in the town of Fermoy there is at present a considerable number unemployed. There are hundreds of acres of waste land which could be bought for a small sum of money and vested in the State. Reafforestation would be work of a reproductive kind and give employment to a large number in that locality. There is also a water scheme in contemplation which could be put into operation, and it is very badly needed there. If portion of the money were allocated for these works it would give employment to a large number during the winter months.

Mr. EVERETT

I regret very much that the Minister has only seen his way to allocate such a small amount for the relief of distress. In County Wicklow we have a balance of only £12,000 ear-marked for trunk roads. I wish to remove any wrong impression created by the statement of the Minister for Local Government that money was available for any particular road and that it was the fault of the County Councils if they did not avail of it. In the County Wicklow, it is only the amount certified by the engineer of the Roads Department that is paid to the County Council. I know of an instance where, in the opinion of the engineer, there was one man too many on the road gang.

The attention of the County Surveyor was called to it and the man was instantly dismissed. With only £12,000 available eighteen men were dismissed last week. We have over 3,000 unemployed in County Wicklow and notwithstanding that £45,000 was allocated for the trunk roads there is great distress prevailing. The Board of Health has passed a resolution calling upon the Government not to ask the ratepayers to be assisting able-bodied men when it is the duty of the Government to provide for them. The Board estimated for £12,000, for the relief of the poor and £13,000 has already been spent in relieving over 1,200 able-bodied people who would be drawing unemployment benefit if the insurance scheme was extended. These 1,200 people have been unable to obtain one day's work during the last twelve months. As a result of want of money, large numbers of widows and aged people, not in receipt of old age pensions, have had their Home Assistance considerably reduced so that those people who are unable to obtain work could be assisted.

The Board of Health passed a resolution calling upon the Minister to give a substantial amount for the relief of distress. Kynochs factory, which employed a large number of men, has been closed down, as also have the mines in Avoca. The chemical works in Wicklow are practically closed. There is practically no work in the rural districts, so that there was never such distress prevailing as there is at present in that county. A sewerage scheme for Little Bray has been submitted, which would absorb at least 200 of the unemployed. Only about 20 per cent. of the money required would be spent on materials, so that a large amount could be spent on labour. In Arklow a large amount of employment could be given if money were allocated for the extension of the waterworks. The Wicklow Urban Council have also appealed to the Local Government Department for a grant for the extension of the waterworks. There are over 350 insurable persons in that town who are at present unemployed. Up to the present we have heard nothing regarding these schemes, and are awaiting a decision from the Minister as to whether some of this money could be allocated for them. Even amongst the fishing folk of Arklow there is a great deal of distress. The fishing season has been a very bad one, and I suggest that some of this money should be allocated towards relieving those men who are unable to make anything out of the fishing industry.

I have already stated here that it is practically impossible to bring home to Ministers the seriousness of the present unemployment problem. I would, however, point out to them that they were never faced with a graver problem than that which now faces them. If words fail to convince Ministers of the necessity for providing people with food and shelter, then I say to the working classes and the unemployed that different means will have to be found, and a different attitude adopted by people outside, in order to bring home to the Government a sense of their responsibility in connection with the treatment of the unemployed. The amount allocated is altogether insufficient. While it may be useful as temporary relief in a small number of cases, it would not in my opinion relieve the distress at present prevailing in Wicklow, Wexford and Kildare. We ask the Minister to allocate portion of this money for sewerage and water schemes submitted by public bodies, and also to the county councils to be spent on any road, for which no other scheme is put forward, when distress prevails in a particular locality, so as to afford temporary relief to unemployed persons coming up to Christmas.

Dr. O'DOWD

I say with Deputy Morrissey and Deputy Kennedy that the amount voted is totally inadequate, and I hope it will be used only as a first instalment. I am glad that the Minister has put in the forefront as essential works, water and sewerage schemes. Water and sewerage schemes are part and parcel of the public health of the nation, and which will well repay before long any money expended upon them. I called the attention of the House to the state of affairs existing in the town of Elphin. Other Deputies have asked for grants for towns in their constituencies, but I suggest that for the town of Elphin there certainly is a prima facie case for an immediate grant.

The Minister for Local Government will bear me out when I say the water supply of the town has been condemned and that the sewerage arrangements are most primitive. Plans and specifications have already been submitted to the Minister and the Board of Health, and everything is in order if the money is forthcoming. I agree with Deputy Cooper that in the towns even a small grant would induce the local authorities to borrow the remainder of the money and to start the work. Therefore, I ask the Minister to remember in the allocation of this grant that there are two water schemes and two sewerage schemes ready to start in the County of Roscommon at the moment—one in the town of Roscommon and one in the town of Elphin. The Minister said he wished this money to be spent on work that would be finished in the financial year. But the Minister must know that water and sewerage schemes could not be undertaken now and finished in the financial year, so I ask him to reconsider that. Some few years ago a three hundred acre area was set aside in Roscommon for reafforestation. The County Committee the other day made recommendations to the Ministry about the area. If any of the money were available— I dare say if we only get £6,000 it will not do for all the schemes—three hundred acres for reafforestation are available.

Speaking of bog roads, I mentioned before that there is an area in the extreme north of the County Roscommon depending to a large extent on migratory labour. The migratory labourers this year had a very bad season in England and Scotland, and they are in dire distress at the moment. If Deputy Conlon were here perhaps he could bear me out when I say that in 1925 at the time of Roscommon by-election some bog roads were started— the roads which the Minister now mentions as being suitable. These roads were left unfinished after the election. I refer to the roads in the district of Drumshambo, and Cootehall in North Roscommon. If any money is available for bog roads in Co. Roscommon I urge the Minister to remember those.

Mr. J.J. BYRNE

Before the Minister for Finance disburses all the money to Roscommon, Kildare and other places, I should like to put in a word for the City of Dublin. As I have already pointed out in this House, unemployment in the City of Dublin is very acute. Dublin is up against a double problem, having to deal with its own unemployed and also with the very considerable number of unemployed that come up from the provinces. If the money is to be allocated in the way that seems to be in the minds of some Deputies, namely £6,000 to various units, I humbly suggest that as far as Dublin is concerned a sum of £6,000 is entirely inadequate. If we are to deal with this question at all the present grant of £150,000 must, in my opinion, be only a beginning. I agree with Deputy Cooper when he said that if this sum is found to be inadequate—and there can be no doubt in the minds of many Deputies that the sum is inadequate—I hope the Minister will come again to the House at a later stage and ask for a further sum. One statement made by the Minister for Finance caused me considerable uneasiness. He said, I think, that a large number of men were unsuitable for employment on public works. I happen to have large numbers of that very type of man coming to me and I have been promising them that work will be available and that a sum of £150,000 is to be allocated for that purpose. Does the Minister suggest that none but able-bodied men will get employment in the disbursement under these schemes? I think it is a terrible thing to have those men advanced in years, but still capable of giving decent and efficient service to the State, deprived of work, and that work given to younger men. It would appear to me that some very selfish element existed in carrying out such a method of dealing with unemployment. Whenever I recommend a man advanced in years, invariably that man comes back to me and never gets a chance, but if I send a big, strong, strapping young fellow the Commissioners are sure to pick him out at once, as if they feel they are going to get value for their money. I ask the Minister to consider that this portion of the problem requires sympathetic attention. If the scheme is to be carried out on such a plan as that— and I hope I am wrong in inferring that—there is going to be great heart-burnings amongst many of the hardworking men advanced in years who are well able to work but who may be turned away, left with nothing to do, and no hope of employment. I ask the Minister to make some suggestion or statement which will ensure that those advanced in years will be considered in the disbursements under these schemes. I have at least fifteen or twenty men of that type whom I have been promising from day to day that they will get employment. If that statement of the Minister is true these people will get no consideration at all. I hope the statement is untrue, and I ask the Minister to relieve my mind of that uneasiness before he concludes upon this particular subject.

Mr. CORISH

I am rather at a disadvantage in not being here when the Minister was speaking. I understand his remarks conveyed the idea that in the allocation of this grant he is not disposed to agree to its being expended on the making of roads.

Personally, I think it is rather a good idea, but in some parts of the country it will be very difficult to find suitable employment for the men, for there is a great deal of unemployment, unless the Minister is in a position or cares to vary the conditions under which he now seeks to have the works done. In connection with the matter of the clearance of housing sites, I think it is rather a good thing that the Minister has agreed to permit the local authorities to spend this money, any of them who are lucky enough to get a grant on the clearing of housing sites. This will be much help afterwards in the matter of the housing problem. Because, very often, the initial expense of clearing housing sites adds a great deal to the rent which the councils have to charge. The clearances of sites in a great many cases cost as much as £20 to £30 per house. In that connection I might mention that a great many urban areas are in need of money for the purpose of clearing away housing sites, and it will be necessary to have certain roads or avenues made in connection with the schemes that these councils have in mind. I hope the Minister will be able to vary the conditions he now lays down.

In connection with sewerage, I understand that the Minister is disposed to give grants for sewerage works in the various towns, and, like Deputy O'Dowd. I believe that a great deal requires to be done in this respect in a great many of the towns and cities of the Saorstát so far as sewerage works are concerned. In a great many towns a system of box sewerage prevails, and box sewerage is injurious to the health of the inhabitants. This is a matter that should be attended to at once. A question arises as to whether or not money will be available to enable certain urban authorities to purchase sewerage pipes out of the grant. I know well that it is not a desirable thing to advocate that an urban authority should be allowed to purchase materials out of the grants allocated to them for unemployment, and I do not want to advocate that. As the Minister knows, the borrowing powers of a great many public authorities to-day have reached their limits. I might point out that the limit was not fixed since money began to depreciate within the last five or six years, and, as a consequence, these urban authorities find it difficult to secure money to enable them to carry out necessary sewerage works. I would like the Minister to state if along with getting a grant from the Government the local authorities which require to do some very necessary sewerage work will be permitted to borrow from the Local Loans Fund the amount of money which would be required to enable them to purchase sewerage pipes. It is well to have that now, because the Minister or his Department may say that if a local authority is lucky enough to get a grant they would not also agree to let them have a loan from the Local Loans Fund. That loan might be necessary to enable the local body to carry out a scheme of sewerage work.

I am glad to hear that the Minister is disposed to give some of this money as a free grant to enable certain local authorities to provide a better water supply. One of the towns in my own constituency of Wexford, the town of Enniscorthy, is at the moment contemplating the provision of a better supply of water. Anybody who is familiar with the town knows that the amount of water which is being supplied there at the moment is not half sufficient to supply the needs of the people. A letter has been already sent to the Department of Local Government and Public Health, accompanied by a resolution asking that a grant should be given to enable the council to carry out this very worthy object, and I hope that the Minister will give this application from Enniscorthy the consideration which it deserves. In my constituency of Wexford there are, unfortunately, great numbers of unemployed. In my own town of Wexford, owing to the fact that there has been, as everybody admits, a decided depression in agriculture for the last five or six years, the foundries there are working with a very small staff. Deputy O'Hanlon the other day, in his statement on the tariff motion, suggested that Irish wheelbarrows and Irish shovels should be placed in the hands of the Irish farmers before we talk about tariffs. I would, in turn, suggest to Deputy O'Hanlon that he would urge on the farmers that they should get behind the handles of Irish ploughs and not be importing them from Bedford. If the farmers applied themselves to the support of the manufacturers of their own country better than they have done or have been doing, they would not have to pay so much poor rate as they have been paying and we would have more people in employment. In the year 1920 we had between 450 and 500 men employed in manufacturing agricultural implements in one particular firm in the town of Wexford.

To-day in that firm there are only 210 people employed. There are in that town two similar firms, and the proportion of men working now in these firms as compared with the number working in 1920 is still less than in the one I have mentioned. In consequence of that, the town of Wexford is in a bad state so far as employment is concerned. I hope when representations are made to the Minister for Finance that he will have no hesitation in coming to the relief of the local council in the only way in which he can come to their relief. In dealing with the unemployment motion the other day, I mentioned New Ross. For a number of years in New Ross there was a tannery, and that tannery at one time employed 150 men. Quite recently that tannery has been closed down. There is a brewery in New Ross which, for a number of years, also employed a great number of men, and it is now practically on the verge of being closed down, so that that town, too, is in need of relief.

Speaking of towns, and having in mind also rural areas, I am wondering what schemes could be considered by the Minister and the councils concerned in so far as the relief of unemployment amongst the rural workers is concerned. It is very hard to find any employment other than road work in rural areas, and in some parts of Ireland to-day there is as much distress and distress as acute in rural areas as in the urban areas That aspect of the situation must not be lost sight of. I am wondering, like other Deputies here, how this £150,000 is going to be allocated in fairness to every part of the State. Like them, I consider that the amount now about to be distributed is altogether too small, and is altogether too little to deal with what everybody agrees is an acute problem. I do hope that this £150,000 will be only a beginning, and that when the committee which President Cosgrave has promised to set up is set going we will have an interim report from them very soon as to what can be done, and that some money will be available to follow up this £150,000 for the relief of the distress that is prevailing amongst our people.

Mr. CARNEY

I thoroughly agree with those who have said that this grant is totally inadequate for the purpose of the relief of unemployment. To my mind, the Executive Council in dealing with this matter have not alone been short-sighted, but they must have been suffering from a double cataract. These grants for the purpose of the relief of unemployment relieve it temporarily for three or six weeks, and then we have the whole question of unemployment coming back to us again like a boomerang. The object, to my mind, should be if there is any attempt to relieve unemployment, to relieve it permanently, if that is possible. Take into consideration the constituency of Donegal, which I have the honour to represent, I question if there were £6,000 allocated to that constituency whether that £6,000 in the matter of relieving unemployment would last as long as a snowball on a hot plate. Because were it not for the fact that the sons and daughters and parents of families in Donegal are sending money from America, from Scotland and from England, from twenty-five per cent. to fifty per cent. of the population of Donegal would simply cease to exist.

It would be almost impossible to enumerate the different things which require to be done in that constituency, not to talk of the rest of the country. For example, if the particular Department which deals, or rather is supposed to deal, with the geological survey had carried out their duties as they should have done they would have been able to point out that in Donegal we have deposits of lead and silver in Gortahork and Glentogher. Perhaps if these mines were being operated we might be able to use some of that silver in making these Yorkshire works of art which we will have on our new coins. If these mines were in operation they would give a lot of employment in those areas. We have also deposits of mica which are very valuable, and I think if they were exploited properly they would be the means of bringing a lot of money into the areas in which the deposits occur. We have white mica, which is used mainly for the purpose of making the arc lamps that are used in increasing numbers by the medical profession. We have also deposits of marble, and if any Deputy has enough money to spend he can see the marble church at Dunlewey, made from the famous Dunlewey marble. We have different kinds of granite and other classes of building stone, and if the quarries were opened up they would certainly give a lot of employment in different areas and keep boys and girls from flocking to America.

Deputy Heffernan told us the other day that we had no coal resources in this country. Now, unless the businessmen of Belfast were suffering from the effects of mass hypnotism, they must have been absolutely in error when they mistook the materials they got from the Arigna coal mines last year as coal. I saw it passing through on lorries to Belfast during the coal strike, and it certainly looked like coal to me, but, of course, I do not know what Deputy Heffernan might think about it. It requires seven miles of railroad to connect the Arigna coalfields with the nearest railhead, and the building of it would give immediate employment. Then, with the opening up of the coalfields, there would be employment given in the mines, one man operating a coal bed last year inside three weeks employed about 200 additional hands.

It is hardly worth while talking about £150,000 it is so inadequate. Even if the Government had to raise a loan for the purpose of carrying out work which would be reproductive, they should do so, and I am sure they would get assistance from all parts of the House. Deputy Cooper—I am very sorry to see he is not here now—was very solicitous about the welfare of the men who are about to be discharged from the National Army. He says it is a very difficult thing to advertise or apply for a job from the Curragh. I quite agree with him, because there were some thousands released from the Curragh internment camps, and they found it so difficult to advertise for jobs, or apply for jobs, that half of them had to go to America and the other half are living in this country in semi-starvation. It is grand to see Deputy Cooper taking such an interest in our soldiers. There are numbers of ex-Connaught Rangers in this country, and from what I can see the majority of them are unemployed. Some who were released from prisons are dead, and some have emigrated. Let me read a short extract from a letter written by one of these ex-Connaught Rangers: "I do not like to be worrying you, but what can one do?"

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

What is the relevancy between applying money for relief schemes and the passage the Deputy is reading?

Mr. CARNEY

These men are unemployed, and I want to point out that there should be no differentiation made between these men and the men of the National Army referred to by Deputy Cooper. The letter runs:—"I do not like to be worrying you, but what can one do? I have not got a day's work since I came home from prison, and it is breaking my heart to see my poor widowed mother dying a lingering death from slow starvation. I have lost my pension as well, and I have wished many times since I came home that I had been shot in France"—in which case, of course, Deputy Cooper would have marched under the Arc de Triomphe in commemoration of his death. It is hardly worth while talking about £150,000, which is totally inadequate. As I said before, this question will be coming back on us again like a boomerang, and no serious attempt has been made by the Government to deal with it as it should have been dealt with; that is, not alone to give a sop for the purpose of relieving or partly relieving unemployment temporarily, but they should have made some attempt to relieve the unemployed permanently.

Mr. T. MURPHY

I am sorry I did not have an opportunity of hearing the Minister's statement when this Vote was moved. I do not intend to delay the time of the House with any long contribution to the debate, because I know the Minister will have to deal with numerous points that have been raised by Deputies, and I do not want to shorten his time. Not having the advantage of hearing the Minister's statement, I am not quite clear what portion of this money will be spent by the respective departments. I would like to feel sure that a considerable amount of the money will be put at the disposal of the Land Commission in order that an opportunity may be afforded in isolated places to have schemes of sewerage and the improvement of waterworks and other such schemes carried out, and in order that some portion of the money that is intended for the relief of unemployment will reach the people in the very remote portions of the country.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

resumed the Chair.

Mr. MURPHY

I would like also to have an assurance that some provision would be made to undertake marine works, the construction of slips and the improvement of piers where such work is undoubtedly necessary.

As a member of a local authority I have some knowledge of the fact that local authorities have been asked very often to contribute to the improvement of marine works which are at present in a dilapidated state. Owing to the state of their finances there is considerable difficulty in getting local authorities to do anything substantial in that direction. In many places piers that could be a source of revenue are very dilapidated, and moneys that could be collected, if there were reasonable facilities given to those using the piers, are not collected and, consequently, the position is one that would need examination with a view to the expenditure from the Central Fund of money in that respect. As regards water works and sewerage works, I am glad that the views of Deputies who contributed to the debate on unemployment have in this respect been met by the Minister.

There is unanimity about the entire inadequacy of this grant, but it is, at any rate, an earnest of the fact that the Government realise, to some extent, the problem that obtains in the country, and I re-echo the hope that it is the first of many instalments which will be needed to come to real grips with the problem. It is the natural inclination of Deputies to speak about their respective constituencies and, in view of the fact that all sorts of schemes will be advocated by Deputies from various parts of the country, I feel that at the moment that tends to confuse the position, and I rather prefer to deal with the matter in a general way. There is no question about the fact that in many villages and towns schemes for improved water supplies and sewage have for a long time been delayed. The conditions with regard to sewage in the average small town are absolutely primitive. They have been hung up for generations in some cases, and the conditions are really a menace to public health. Money given to services of that kind will contribute materially to removing that menace.

In cases where local authorities would be willing to undertake a portion of the expenditure for marine works, I feel that it would be right that portion of this money should be given to such authorities to supplement their contributions for carrying out such work. I have had an example recently of good will on the part of a local authority which has very little money to spend except on the bare essential services in my constituency. The improvement of the pier at Courtmacsherry was under consideration, and a scheme was put to the local authority and examined by the engineer. An expenditure of nearly £800 was voted by the county council, but when the scheme was subsequently examined, it was found the contribution would be inadequate, and consequently the money could not be used. It would simply mean that the work could not be properly carried, and it would look as if public money had been wasted if it were attempted. I suggest that such cases might be dealt with in the connection I have mentioned arising out of the disbursement of monies voted for the relief of unemployment. It is, at any rate, very clear that very much more than this money must be given in the immediate future, and I join with Deputy Corish in expressing the hope that when the President is in a position to make an announcement next week as to the personnel of the committee to be set up in connection with this whole question, we will have that body settling down to do the work and proceed with it quickly in view of the absolutely destitute conditions prevailing.

I trust that in the disbursement of the money the Minister will remember that it is necessary to spend a good portion of it in remote rural areas. I have heard it said often that money of this kind spent on public works is very unsatisfactory, that there is a poor return, and that it is not always well spent. During the last three or four years, I had many examples of money advanced from the Land Commission and other Departments, and I always found that it was honestly and well spent, and that the people who were given employment, in spite of the statement to the contrary made here, were very anxious to do their best to earn that money honestly. I have seen people who were charged with the expenditure of such money taking great pains to see that it was spent economically. I feel that it will be an encouragement to the people in remote rural areas, who are expecting in the immediate future some relief at the hands of the Government, that they will be able to feel satisfied as a result of this debate that the money will not be spent in any particular district, or on any particular work, but will be distributed in the most economic way possible, not to people of any particular class, but for the betterment of all the people who can be benefited as a result of its expenditure. I feel that there are very big and pressing needs in my constituency, but I prefer to devote some other time to dealing with them. I hope in future we will have many occasions of this kind in which we can discuss expenditure of public money in many other directions with a view to coming to grips with what is, in my opinion, the most important problem which we have at the moment in this country.

SEOSAMH O MONGAIN

Ba mhaith liom cuidiú leis an tairscint atá os ar gcóir. Nuair a bheas an t-airgead á roinnt, tá súil agam go mbeidh cuimhne ag an Aire ar mhuinntir Chuan na Mara. Chualas a lán trácht iniú ar áiteacha in gach áird de'n tír agus cho bocht agus atá siad. Ach is féidir liom a rá nach bhfuil ins na háiteacha so a leithéid de bhochtanas agus atá i gCuan na Mara. Ni féidir le duine na háiteacha so a chur i gcomparaid le Cuan na Mara mar gheall ar ganntanas agus bochtanas. Má's fíor an rud adubhairt Colm Cille "go mbeidh bóthar ar gach uile casán agus droichead ar gach uile shruthán," beidh obair go leór roimh an Aire agus caithfidh sé roinnt maith de'n airgead so do thabhairt do Chuan na Mara. Tá's agam go bhfuil geur-ghanntanas ar an bhealach o Chaol Shaire Rua go Gaillimh agus gur féidir oibreacha a thabhairt idir lámhaibh annsin—bóithre do dheunamh ag na portaigh agus calaithe do thógailt. Beadh níos mó airgid a teastail chun bochtanas do leasú i gCuan na Mara na mar tá curtha ar leith faoi'n rún so ach nílimíd sanntach annsin. Tá muinghin againn as an Aire. Támuid sásta nach gá duinn chur in a luighe air co riachtanach agus atá sé cuid de'n airgead so do chaitheamh annsin. Tá muinntir Chuan na Mara lán tsásta go ndéanfaidh se a dhicheall ar a son.

Mr. A.J. BYRNE

Like other Deputies, I approve of the Government action in endeavouring to deal with this problem, and my only cause for complaint is with regard to the inadequacy of the grant. To my mind, it is totally insufficient to deal, even in a small way, with the destitution and povery that exist in the City of Dublin alone. We have 8,000 unfortunates signing up at the Dublin Labour Exchange, and practically within a month we could use the whole of the grant in the city. It would give but very little help indeed to the numbers who are now in great want. I ask the Minister for Finance, and especially the Minister for Local Government, to see that this grant will be spent in such a way that it will be an addition to the work ordinarily done out of the rates, and that it will not be used in any way to save the rates as regards the doing of ordinary work. It should be used in the way it is intended, as a special relief grant to meet an emergency. If there is any attempt to apply it for the doing of ordinary work that should be done out of rates that would not be spending the money according to the wishes of the House, or of the Minister responsible for the grant. I hope the Minister will see that large sums out of this grant will not be spent in materials. These should be purchased by the local councils for ordinary work. I have a reason for urging that the money should be used specially for the relief of distress, that the whole amount should be spent in wages, and that any council getting this money for relief schemes will not be allowed to save any money it may have in its lockers. I would also like to impose on the councils certain conditions, as was done in the days gone by. They should be required to provide whatever material is necessary to carry out relief schemes so that the whole of the £150,000 will go in wages. I am sure the Government had in their minds that this money should go into the homes of the unemployed who require immediate relief.

A point I wish to emphasise is with regard to the physical fitness of men selected for employment where relief work is being provided. You will find a class of men in the City of Dublin who, through poverty and hunger, are broken down. You will find a large number of men of from 50 to 60 years of age broken down, and they have families dependent on them. When they apply for work to private employers they are rejected because of their appearance. No opportunity is given to them to get employment. I hope that will not happen in connection with this grant. It should not happen that because a man is probably unable to give a 100 per cent. output he should be refused work. If such a thing should happen I hope the House will immediately avail of the opportunity to attack the poor law system as applied in Dublin, and which differs from that of the country, so that if a man is cast aside and gets no opportunity of getting anything from this grant other means will be found of relieving him. I hope Deputies will press upon the Government the necessity of finding other means of giving immediate relief to families of individuals of that kind. I think the Government are making efforts to meet the situation, but I feel confident that of the 8,000 signing up in Dublin not half of them will get a day's work on any schemes brought forward under this grant. If the class whom I have mentioned, and who have dependants, are refused employment I hope the Minister for Local Government will make some effort to alter the poor law system which compels a man to go hungry because he cannot produce a doctor's certificate. Many hundreds in the city are being supported by the St. Vincent de Paul Society and helped by the Roomkeepers' Society. These societies are heavily in debt and are making appeals on behalf of people who should be helped under the poor law system. I ask the Minister for Local Government to get a report from the various St. Vincent de Paul centres as to the conditions that exist, and if he does I am sure he will make some effort to deal with the poverty and destitution in the city.

Progress ordered to be reported.

The Dáil went out of Committee. Progress reported.

The Dáil adjourned at 4 p.m. until 3 o'clock p.m. Wednesday, 16th November.