Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 23 Nov 1927

Vol. 21 No. 17

PRIVATE BILLS.

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

I beg to move:—

Go n-aontuighidh an Dáil leis an Seanad ina Rún a cuireadh in úil don Dáil an 16adh lá de Mhí na Samhna, 1927, mar leanas.

That the Dáil concur with the Seanad in their Resolution communicated to the Dáil on the 16th day of November, 1927, as follows:—

1. That the promoters of every Private Bill which lapsed by reason of the termination of the last Session before the Bill had reached its final stage have leave to proceed with the Bill in the present Session of the Oireachtas.

2. That the Principal Clerk of the Private Bill Office shall lay upon the Table of the Seanad a copy of every such Bill, notice of the intention to proceed with which has been given by the promoters in the Private Bill Office.

3. That in respect of every Bill so laid upon the Table the proceedings on such Bill shall be formal in regard to every stage through which the Bill shall have passed in the last Session.

4. That no new fees shall be charged in respect of any stage upon which fees have already been paid in a previous Session.

5. That all Petitions presented against any such Bill which stood referred to the Committee on such Bill in a previous Session shall stand referred to the Committee on the same Bill in the present Session.

6. That no Petitioners shall be heard before the Committee on such Bill unless their Petition shall have been presented within the prescribed time in a previous Session.

This resolution proposes to deal with Private Bills that had reached a certain stage before the conclusion of the last session. Of course it is understood that Private Bills involve a certain amount of expenditure, and it is to prevent duplication of that expenditure for the promoters of the Bills that the resolution is put before the Dáil. Of course the stages which the Bills went through in the previous session will be formally gone through in this session.

Mr. DE VALERA

It is not fair that we should be asked to assent to a resolution of this sort without knowing exactly what the Bills are. Some of the Deputies here have not seen the Bills. We have no idea what they are, and we do not want to assent to them without first having seen them. We want to see the Bills before we commit ourselves to this resolution.

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

This resolution proposes to deal with Bills that had passed certain stages before the conclusion of the last session. They had reached, say, the First or Second Stage, and, as Private Bills involve a certain amount of expenditure, it is considered unfair that the promoters should be put to the necessity of introducing the Bills de novo and duplicating the expenditure. It is understood that this House will have a certain amount of control over these Bills afterwards. When these Bills are sent to this House the motion will be that a Joint Committee be selected. Then it will be open to this House either to accept or reject that proposal, and Deputies will be in a position to express an opinion on the Private Bills. This resolution will not in any way prejudice Deputies' decisions when the Bills come before them.

Mr. DE VALERA

This is a general resolution, and whatever stages the Bills may have passed, we do not know what they are concerned with, and in fact we do not know how far they have progressed.

The PRESIDENT

Some of the Bills have passed the Second Stage, and that is the real point at issue. If a Private Bill gets through the Second Stage in both Houses, we have then committed ourselves to the principle of the measure, and it would be unfair afterwards to reject it on a question of principle. It is only on a question of detail that it ought to be rejected subsequently. These measures cost a very considerable sum of money. Practically every stage in the whole litany of events as regards Bills costs money. The opinion of the Dáil as expressed in connection with the Second Reading is much the opinion of a jury. Let me take a case in point. We had a proposal to widen Butt Bridge. As far as the Second Reading was concerned it was purely in relation to Butt Bridge —whether or not it should be there. We could not deal with the question of its construction up or down the river. Considerable expenditure and delay have been involved by reason of the fact that we have had two general elections in the year. It would be a blister on Private Bill promoters if, after a general election, the whole of the stages had to be gone through again.

I would like Deputies to understand that as far as the Second Reading is concerned, the passing of the Second Reading commits the Dáil to the principle of the measure, and there ought not—I am not saying should not—be subsequently a rejection on the grounds of principle because of the expense to which the promoters have been put.

Mr. DE VALERA

While I see the full force of the remarks made by the President, still I think it is unfair to us to ask us to agree to this, and we will not consent to pass this resolution until we know what the Bills are and until we get full information as to what the Stages are. When we get that information we will be prepared to take into account the view expressed by the President, which is the natural one. I think we cannot forego our own rights to examine these Bills and see whether we would not prefer to stop them now or to bring in a repealing measure afterwards repealing these Bills if they are passed.

The PRESIDENT

If the Deputy desires, we will postpone this motion until to-morrow. An Leas-Cheann Comhairle will furnish a list of these measures to the Dáil for to-morrow.

Mr. DE VALERA

I am quite prepared to accept that.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The real question at issue is not concerned with the merits of the particular Bills that are involved in this motion before the House. Private Bill business is managed by a Joint Committee of both Houses, and this particular motion was settled by the Joint Committee and passed by the Seanad. It aims at preventing people who promoted Private Bills from being damnified by the fact that there was an unexpected dissolution of the Dáil recently. The Bills themselves must come before this House, and no resolution that we could pass could alter the powers that we have over these Bills. They must actually come before this House as if this resolution had never been passed. The effect of the resolution is that the whole matter is not to be taken up again with a consequent long delay, and that expenses of advertising and the payment of other fees are not to be gone through again by the promoters. It can be said that objection has been taken to the motion, and it can be put down for consideration to-morrow. In view of the adjournment, I take it that to-morrow is a suitable day.

Mr. DE VALERA

You have not touched on the point made by the President, that these Bills have been assented to in principle on the Second Reading. That is a point that is the most important from our point of view.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

I did not follow the President, but this House could not be taken as having assented to anything in principle in connection with these Bills. Private Bills are introduced and pass the Second Reading in the Seanad. The Seanad then sends us a request for the setting up of a Joint Committee on the Bill. When we assent to that motion and set up a Joint Committee, then we have agreed to the principle, but that has yet to come and inquiries can be made by the Deputies to-morrow. The motion is postponed until to-morrow.