Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 25 Apr 1928

Vol. 23 No. 4

No. 4—CUSTOMS.

Mr. BLYTHE

I move:—

(1) That a customs duty of an amount equal to thirty-three and one-third per cent. of the value of the article shall be charged, levied and paid on all motor cars and component parts and accessories of motor cars imported into Saorstát Eireann on or after the 26th day of April, 1928.

(2) That in this resolution the expression "motor cars" includes motor tractors, motor bicycles, and motor tricycles and also includes vehicles designed solely or primarily for traction by or attachment to motor cars, motor tractors, motor bicycles, or motor tricycles.

(3) That the value of any article for the purposes of this resolution shall be taken to be the price which an importer would give for the article if the article were delivered, freight and insurance paid in bond at the place of importation, and duty shall be paid on that value as fixed by the Revenue Commissioners.

(4) That if it is proved to the satisfaction of the Revenue Commissioners that the duty mentioned in this resolution has been duly paid in respect of any article and that such article has not been used in Saorstát Eireann, a drawback equal to the amount of the duty so paid shall be allowed on such article if it is exported as merchandise.

(5) That Section 6 of the Customs and Inland Revenue Act, 1879, shall not apply to articles liable to the duty mentioned in this resolution and any such article re-imported into Saorstát Eireann after exportation therefrom shall be exempt from such duty if it is shown to the satisfaction of the Revenue Commissioners either that the article had not been imported previously to exportation or that no drawback of duty was allowed on exportation or that any drawback so allowed has been repaid to the Revenue Commissioners.

Articles which have been imported and exported by way of transit only under bond shall not be deemed to have been imported or exported for the purposes of this paragraph.

(6) That where it is proved to the satisfaction of the Revenue Commissioners that a motor car is constructed and adapted for propulsion or traction along rail tracks and is intended to be or has been and is being used exclusively for such propulsion or traction or that an article is a component part or accessory or is intended to be or has been and is being exclusively used as a component part or accessory of any such motor car as aforesaid, the Revenue Commissioners shall, subject to such conditions (if any) as they think fit to impose, allow such motor car or article (as the case may be) to be imported without payment of the duty mentioned in this resolution or, where such duty has been paid on importation, shall repay such duty.

(7) That where it is proved to the satisfaction of the Revenue Commissioners that an article is of a kind mainly used as a component part or an accessory of a motor car but is imported for use for some other purpose, the Revenue Commissioners shall, subject to such conditions (if any) as they think fit to impose, allow such article to be imported without payment of the duty mentioned in this resolution or, where such duty has been paid on importation, shall repay such duty.

(8) That the Minister for Finance may by order exempt from the duty mentioned in this resolution any specified article liable to such duty if he is satisfied that, having regard to the small value of the article, it is inexpedient that the duty should be charged.

Orders made under this sub-section (5) of Section 13 of the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1915, and in force on the 25th day of April, 1928, may be revoked or amended by an order made under this paragraph and, until so revoked and subject to any such amendment, shall apply to the duty mentioned in this resolution and continue in force accordingly.

(9) That the Minister for Finance may make regulations providing for the total or partial exemption for a limited period from the duty mentioned in this resolution of motor cars brought into Saorstát Eireann by persons making only a temporary stay therein.

Regulations made under sub-section (6) of Section 13 of the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1915, and in force on the 25th day of April, 1928, may be revoked or amended by regulations made under this paragraph and, until so revoked and subject to any such amendment, shall apply to the duty mentioned in this resolution and to motor cars liable to that duty and shall continue in force accordingly.

(10) That the provisions of Section 8 of the Finance Act, 1919, shall apply to the duty mentioned in this resolution with the substitution of the expression "Saorstát Eireann" for the expression "Great Britain and Ireland."

(11) That the new import duties which were first imposed by Section 12 of the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1915, and were continued up to the 1st day of May, 1928, by Section 12 of the Finance Act, 1927 (No. 18 of 1927) shall not be charged or levied on any article chargeable with the duty mentioned in this resolution.

(12) It is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1927 (No. 7 of 1927).

It is a very lengthy resolution. It is a resolution extending to all vehicles which have been exempt from the McKenna duties. It covers vehicles and tyres. Heretofore commercial vehicles were exempt. Tyres on all vehicles have been also exempt. By this resolution it is proposed to extend the tax to cover the whole value of all the motor vehicles imported. It is, as I stated, anticipated that the yield of the tax will be approximately £200,000. About £110,000 of that will come from the extension of the tax to all classes of vehicles; about £90,000 will come from the extension of the duty to tyres.

Mr. MacENTEE

In view of the fact that it affords a certain amount of protection to manufacturers of bodies for commercial vehicles, we believe the duty is fairly equitable. Considering the amount of expenditure which the State has to bear in relation to the upkeep of the roads, we feel it would have been better if the Minister for Finance had coupled with this tax the cognate one of a tax upon petrol or paraffin. I do not know whether I am in order in raising the matter, but I certainly think that a tax of that description would in all the circumstances be much more acceptable to the community as a whole than a tax which is virtually a tax on a necessity of living —an increase in the tax on sugar. Beyond that I do not think we on this side would be inclined to criticise or oppose this particular duty. It is an extension of the principle of protection to a certain extent, and upon those lines we are inclined to accept it.

Major MYLES

I desire to protest against the tax on tyres. I think that motorists in this country are paying ample already for the pleasure of motoring—not that it is always pleasure, because it is a well-known fact that, even with the recent improvement in roads, motoring is yet a penance in many parts of the country. A great many members of this House, I think, will bear me out when I say that an enormous amount of the motoring done is not joy-riding. If the Minister had put an extra tax on petrol, and put the yield to the improvement of the roads, then I would not have anything to say about that; or if the tax from the tyres should go to the Road Fund, I do not think that the ordinary motorist could very well object. As far as I can see, there is no mention or suggestion that such is going to be done, and that any of the money from the tax on tyres will be devoted to road improvement. The Minister has, for the moment, forgotten the difficulty that those of us who live along the Border will be placed in. There is a tax on petrol on the other side, and there is no tax on petrol on our side. Every time we cross the Border we shall have more regulations than ever we had before—and goodness knows we have had enough before. I think the atmosphere of the House seems to be against me in this. Some of the Deputies will probably look on it as a means of revenue; others will look on it as a matter of principle. I look upon it from the point of view of the convenience of the ordinary public, and, as such, I protest against it.

Mr. LEMASS

I am in complete agreement with Deputy Myles in his remarks concerning the tax on petrol or the tax upon tyres—that is, the utilisation of the tax upon petrol for revenue purposes. If a tax on petrol, in order to enable a reduction to be made in the horse power tax on motor cars, were to be considered motorists generally would favour such an alteration in the system of taxation for road purposes. A tax on tyres for the benefit of the road fund is probably justifiable, and a tax on tyres for another purpose can be justified. A customs duty on imported motor cars can be justified for another purpose. But we do not agree that a tariff on imported tyres for the purpose of raising revenue is justifiable. We think that when tariffs on imports of this nature are being imposed they should be imposed for the specific purpose of promoting the development of the industries concerned. There is no reason why motor tyres could not be made here. It is common knowledge that the Dunlop Company might have started in this country some years ago if petty objections were not raised.

Mr. GOOD

They did start in this country and manufactured here.

Mr. FLINN

You were too sensitive to allow them to remain.

Mr. LEMASS

It has also been stated that the Dunlop Company have had in contemplation during the last few years the advisability of opening a factory here, and if the imposition of this duty upon imported tyres has that result it will have justified itself, even if it does not bring one penny into the Treasury. In connection with the duty on imported motor cars and parts, it is quite obvious that the Minister merely considered the amount he was going to get into the Treasury, and not the effect it was going to have upon industry here. There are probably well over 100 different makes of motors at present being used, and the amount of money that leaves the country for the various parts necessary to repair these cars must be very considerable. Looking at it from a national point of view, it is exceedingly wasteful. If the Government were to consider the advisability of restricting the number of makes of cars in use in the country we think that a considerable national gain would be achieved, and then this tax upon imported cars and parts might result in a number of these particular makes being constructed here. I would also like to know what reason is behind the fixing of the rates of import duty upon parts on the same level as the duty upon cars. If the tax on parts was lower than the tax on cars there would be an inducement given to import parts separately and build cars here, thus giving some employment, but while the tax remains on the same level there is no such inducement. As a protective tariff the duty imposed is inadequate and that justifies me. I think, in saying that it is not being imposed as a protective tariff but as a revenue-raising device. If it is hoped, as a result of this, that any construction of motor cars will take place here a 33? per cent. tariff is not sufficient. We have to bear in mind that probably two-thirds of our imports come from Great Britain under the Imperial preference rate, which brings the duty down to about 22 per cent. ad valorem. Nothing less than a forty or fifty per cent. duty would give the necessary filip to the construction of motor cars here. There is no reason why motor cars cannot be constructed here.

We think that a duty of this kind as a revenue-raising device should not be supported by the House, but that a tariff for the purpose of promoting industry should be supported. As the effect of this duty will, however, be to act in some way as a protective duty, we do not intend to oppose it. At the same time, I should like the Government to take into consideration the whole question of the import duty on motor cars and parts with a view to the modification and alteration, so as to ensure, at any rate, the building of cars here and, if possible, the complete construction of them.

Mr. ESMONDE

Will the Minister say what is the meaning of sub-section (10) of this resolution?

Sir J. CRAIG

I spoke four or five years ago on the same lines as Deputy Lemass has spoken now. I said then that I thought it was a great mistake to impose an import duty on motor cars merely as a revenue tax—that there was no prospect even at that time of any cars being made here. I thought it would be disastrous for traffic in the country and would prevent people coming here, particularly during the summer months. I also said that I would prefer very much to have the horse-power tax removed and a tax put upon petrol. Many people own motors who only use them once or twice in the week and they are expected to pay the same amount as the person using a car constantly. I do not think that is fair, and the Minister should have taken it into account.

Some taxi drivers have been speaking to me about the tax on their cars. One man tells me that his annual tax is £16. He is not able to pay that tax in one sum and when he pays by the quarter 20 per cent. is added on, so that his tax amounts to £19 4s. 0d. He complains that the amount of money he is able to make now is very little compared with what he was able to make before the buses came on the roads, with their cheap fares. The Minister stated that this will not be very much on the private users of cars. It will be a considerable amount. Fifteen pound tyres will now cost £18 and £20 tyres £24, so that there will be a considerable increase.

Deputy Myles alluded to another point that struck me as very likely to cause a considerable amount of friction and confusion. In connection with the tax on petrol over the Border, the question will arise whether people will be allowed to take 10 or 12 gallons of petrol in their tanks when going into Northern Ireland or whether the quantity they are taking will be measured. I foresee a great deal of difficulty in connection with that matter. It would be very much fairer to have a petrol tax imposed instead of the present horse-power tax. I would not like to have to pay as high a petrol tax as has been imposed in Great Britain, but I would be prepared to pay a tax that would produce an amount equal to or a little more than the annual tax for horse-power. The Minister should consider that matter. A tax on petrol would be much fairer. I feel so strongly about this that I intend to vote against it because I do not think that it will do anything but bring in a little revenue. I know the motor industry is not in a flourishing condition at present, and to add to their troubles will leave them practically unable to carry on. I am totally opposed to the 33? per cent. being put upon tyres.

Mr. HASLETT

I think, for once, we may say that the Minister for Finance has hardly taken a broad enough outlook upon this question. The motor trade has come to stay, and it is for the Dáil to facilitate that trade for the benefit of the country. Many of us have reason to know that the motor trade is in a very bad condition, and has been for a number of years past, and there will be keen disappointment when these proposals are made public. The motor trade was hoping that some relief might be given and that some more equitable basis on which to raise revenue and to protect the industry might have been found. A tax on petrol instead of the horse-power tax would have helped the trade and would do away with the old basis for the taxation of motor cars. We could still have protection for those manufactures in the State by remitting the tax altogether on them and charging a nominal tax on imported cars by way of road taxation. I join in the protest against this fresh imposition upon an industry that cannot afford it, and that will send us back, as far as travelling facilities are concerned, to the dark ages.

Mr. GOULDING

I join with Deputies in making a protest against this tax on behalf of those men who have to live by this industry. I am a private user of a motor car, and, of course, it will hit me also, but the men who have to make a living out of the hire of motor cars have been very hard hit as a result of the increased horse-power tax. There must be thousands of cars lying disused in the garages of the country belonging to people who can very ill afford it. Some effort ought to be made to give these people relief and to give the hackney owner a chance of putting on the road the old cars in his possession, of a very high horse-power, at some flat rate. I was in a garage lately of a man who has not very much worldly means. He has a very good car, and he could get a very good price for it but for the enormous tax. That car was about seven or eight years old, and I think it is only fair that the man should be allowed to put that car on the road at a lower tax. But now he has to pay an increased price for the tyres he uses, and surely some effort should be made to give him some relief in another direction. I think these men are suffering great hardship.

Mr. BLYTHE

I want to intervene on one point. Some Deputies seem to have the impression that the imposition of a petrol tax here would ease the difficulty at the boundary. It would not ease the difficulty at the boundary at all, but it would increase it.

Major MYLES

This tyre tax will increase the difficulties tenfold at the boundary of Northern Ireland. At the present time, with an English car I have had to pay a deposit upon foreign tyres going into Northern Ireland. Now, I suppose, when we get the new regulations, I shall have to pay a deposit coming back into the Free State. I think the tax on tyres will be much worse than that on petrol.

Mr. BLYTHE

No, it will not. I want to point out that Deputies seem to think that if we impose the tax on petrol because there was a British tax there would be no difficulties in regard to petrol. The difficulty in regard to petrol would be much greater because there would be two-way difficulties instead of one-way and there would be two taxes.

Mr. MOORE

It is not clear to me whether this resolution applies to electrical vehicles; that is to vehicles whose motor power is electricity?

Mr. BLYTHE

Yes.

Mr. MOORE

Then "motor vehicles" include electrical vehicles. Apparently the tax upon commercial vehicles is a popular tax with the Dáil, but it is going to be felt by a good many important interests in the country. We all know that the co-operative societies are large users of commercial vehicles and have several of these vehicles on the road every day. They are going to feel the thirty-three-and-a-third tax considerably. A great many traders living in remote places from railway stations are going to feel it, and I should not be surprised if it would mean a slight increase in the cost of goods in a great many places.

I cannot find fault with the tax on tyres, I am afraid, because I was responsible for suggesting it to the Finance Department, some three years ago, and I could not now very well condemn it. But at that time a bargain was proposed of which it was part. A tax was to be put on tyres in return for the remission of the tax on spare parts. The tax on spare parts is kept on and the tyre tax is now imposed. That looks like taking too much out of the offer. One thing arises out of that. Now that commercial vehicles are taxed, it is to be hoped that the Revenue Commissioners will make much better regulations with regard to the clearing of parts at the North Wall and other ports. It would be very hard to convince me that the tax on parts is a thing that pays for itself. Knowing what traders have to go through, and the little difficulties that are raised, the forms to be filled in, and all that sort of thing, I cannot see how the revenue received from the tax is able to pay for the officials, and, certainly, if anyone puts any value upon the time of businessmen it must be one of the most costly taxes ever imposed. Now that commercial vehicles are going to come under the tax, the holding up of a lorry for a week or so may mean a very serious thing to a great many people who live at a distance from railway stations, and it is hoped that the Revenue Commissioners will make better efforts to clear these things expeditiously. I think there was room for more imagination in connection with this whole matter of the importation of commercial vehicles and their use of the roads. Every motorist in Ireland would have welcomed a differentiation in favour of pneumatic tyres against solid tyres. It is rather singular the Minister has left that out. It would have meant a great saving to the roads and would not have been objected to by anybody. In the British Budget yesterday, I think they decided to give preference to pneumatic tyres. I hope an opportunity will occur on the Finance Bill to introduce that differentiation but, in view of the present state of the Road Fund, and the poor outlook there seems to be for that fund at the moment— although I have no definite knowledge, the outlook for that fund is anything but rosy and I think it is going to be insignificant in the coming years—I think it would be well worth while to consider whether the roads would not be saved a great deal of damage by practically insisting on the use of pneumatic tyres.

I think it is a pity that electrical vehicles should be included in this tax. Surely if the Shannon scheme is going to be the epoch-making thing which we all expect it to be why should we not raise the slogan: "Prepare for electrical vehicles." The use of these vehicles is extending very rapidly in America and to a smaller degree in England. Why should the Government not advertise their use here by turning the minds of the people in that direction? There would not be very many. It would not mean a loss of revenue and it would draw attention to the utility of these vehicles. It is very desirable that the minds of those who are interested in transport should be turned in that direction as quickly as possible. It is not a good thing that so much of the transport of the country should have as its basis a commodity produced in Persia, Mexico, and different countries far from here, some of which at the moment do not appear to be very civilised. That does not look a very stable basis for transport, yet, notwithstanding the fact that the Shannon scheme is nearing completion, we are satisfied to allow that tendency to divert in one way instead of turning it in the other direction. It may be that I am talking rather in advance of the times and that electrical vehicles are not a very practical proposition at the moment but, as I say, their use is extending very rapidly in America and many of our roads are now so good that I believe that if encouragement were given to the use of these vehicles, both by a remission of import duty and, particularly, a favourable tax, we would have them coming in here in sufficient numbers to draw the attention of the people to them. The tax on tyres is, of course, going to be felt considerably by the motoring community, who, I think, should have got some quid pro quo. When the Financial Bill comes along I hope we will have a discussion on the tax on spare parts and that we shall be able to form a fair opinion as to whether that tax should not be sacrificed in return for the tax on tyres which has the merit of being a clean tax, a tax very easily collected and one which will not involve very considerable expense. I am sure that a strong case could be made for that and that the tax on spare parts which is expensive to collect and which is such a worry to those concerned could be very well dropped.

Mr. SHAW

Some time ago I asked the Minister for Finance whether he was aware that persons who had motors for hire in the country were badly hit owing to the competition of motor buses, and should get some relief. Now, however, they are to be further penalised, and I hope that in the Finance Bill something will be done to relieve them. There is no shadow of doubt about it that these people are not doing fifty per cent. of the trade which they were doing before the buses came along. They will have to go out of business, because the buses can take persons for a shilling where in the case of those to whom I refer it would cost 3/-. I trust that this matter will, after consideration, be rectified, as undoubtedly a large number of these people will be severely penalised owing to the increased price of tyres. I am in hopes that the prices may not be raised, as I believe that the Dunlop Company will probably come in and manufacture tyres here. The grievance to which I refer is a genuine one, and unless something is done for these people they will have to throw their cars on the scrap-heap and will not take out further licences.

Mr. MATTHEWS

I would like to ask the Minister if this duty includes motor tractors for agricultural purposes, simply and purely for use on the land, as distinct from haulage purposes?

Mr. GOOD

Do I understand that we must get through these fifteen resolutions to-night?

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

I do not know what discussion will arise on the other resolutions, but this is the only one which I found gave Deputies an opportunity for talking about motor cars generally and dealing with suggestions about a petrol tax. I take it that it is not the intention to go very widely into that subject this evening. The whole scheme on these resolutions is that there should be merely the kind of criticism we have just heard from Deputies who have spoken, and the kind of explanation which the Minister has given, because other occasions will arise—for example, on the Road Fund —to refer to a tax on petrol. I think we can get through this particular resolution this evening, though I am not sure whether the other resolutions offer the same scope for discussion. When Deputy MacEntee referred to the question of petrol, I did not intervene, as no other opportunity would arise this evening for dealing with that matter. The position depends on what the Minister wants to get through.

Mr. BLYTHE

We ought to get through this resolution and that dealing with sugar, at any rate. It is really more satisfactory not to have a long discussion on the resolution which is before the House, as we can have the real discussion on the Report Stage.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

And in the intervening period between this debate and the debate on Report there is the general resolution which enables the general questions to be debated.

Mr. O'KELLY

I am going to ask only one or two questions which I think could be quickly answered. I see in the first paragraph of the resolution that it refers to customs duties on motor cars and component parts, but I cannot see anything in the resolution exempting motor cars from, say, another part of the Commonwealth of Nations known as the British Empire. Does that mean that Imperial preference is dropped?

Mr. BLYTHE

No. Deputy Esmonde was looking for it, and found it without being sure about it. It is in paragraph 10.

Mr. O'KELLY

That means that Imperial preference remains?

Mr. BLYTHE

Yes.

Mr. O'KELLY

Perhaps it might be convenient now to give some information with reference to some matters that have been discussed in the Press for the last week or two on the subject of motors and tariffs and the visit of Mr. Ford to England. We have not had any official statement from the Ministry with regard to that matter. Perhaps if the Minister has any information to give to the House this might be a convenient opportunity to give it, if the Ceann Comhairle has no objection. I see in the "Irish Times" of to-day a statement that a certain offer has been made by Mr. Ford. Of course you need not take me as saying that I believe everything I see in the "Irish Times" or in the "Independent," or in any other paper, but as the statement is there I suppose it is made with some authority. Perhaps the Minister might find it convenient to tell us whether it is true. The statement was to the effect that there was an offer made, and that in the event of such an offer being met and agreed to by the Department of Finance, a factory with a capacity of employing 6,000 hands would be set up in Cork or the present Cork factory would be extended. The Minister might say whether he has read that statement or whether an offer has been made. If he has any information that he could give the House I would be glad to hear it.

Mr. FLINN

There seems to be a larger question lying behind this than appears on the surface. I quite agree that an extensive debate at this stage would be undesirable, and I am quite sure that our feeling is that this resolution should get through to-day. That is a question of arrangement. The point I have in my mind is this: I always get back to the fact that everything has to come out of something, and the damage that is being done and the cost entailed by the maintenance of roads has to be met out of somewhere. Whether the Road Fund is going to bear it or in what particular way it is going to be met, it has eventually to be paid. I think in considering this question of tyres, and in considering the duty upon commercial vehicles, it would be worth while for the Minister to obtain from the Local Government Department some figures which I think are available as to the actual destruction. I have seen a road which, after a definite period of six weeks, has been damaged by a particularly-tyred and unsprung commercial vehicle to an extent which it would be almost impossible for any tax to pay. While, in general, one rather objects to putting a tax on commercial vehicles, because after all it is simply adding to the cost of transport, it is so obvious at the present time that a good many of the commercial vehicles using the roads are doing damage to an extent which is not by any means being met, not even approximately, by any tax imposed, or which is likely to be imposed, on them in the ordinary way, I think the Minister might very well take into account in this matter the differences of tyreing. Where you see a big solid tyre you know that it is going to carry a big weight. If it is a big solid tyre, and it is going to carry that weight, the damage to the road is going to be enormous. That does not apply in any way in the same degree to the case of smaller light cars. I would have no difficulty in producing to the House county surveyors who would prove that cars under a certain weight, when driven carefully, actually improve a road rather than damage it. While a tax on these cars might be regarded as a luxury tax it is not a tax in the same sense to repair damage as it would be in the case of heavy commercial vehicles.

The other question I would like to raise has been referred to by Deputy O'Kelly. It is a fact that this whole matter concerns a great enterprise which is only in its very beginning in the South of Ireland. If I were asked to consider, say, a loss of £250,000 in relation to existing works or even in the case of existing works, as is suggested in relation to the 6,000 employees, my attitude would be open-minded, but I look upon the Ford possibility in Cork as one of the biggest possibilities I could possibly envisage for Ireland. I think you may be sure that in dealing with the works there you are dealing with the roots of a very big thing. I personally have no doubt that this House in dealing with Mr. Ford is dealing with a Corkman and an Irishman, and with a man who really does appreciate and is glad to perform a real service under that name. I feel that I am neither opposing the resolution nor supporting it at the moment. I am merely suggesting in relation to this whole resolution that every possible consideration should be given not merely to the visible possibilities but to the very much larger possibilities that lie behind. I believe that if the enterprise there were developed to the level which we think possible, it would be only a beginning.

My suggestion is that you are not dealing with something in which you should make a hard bargain, that there is a difference between consent and agreement and, if I might say so, the glad hand, and that the activities of Ford at Cork should be welcomed. My information is, without going into the matter very deeply, that we have the possibilities there if the facilities are given, if they can be given with due regard to the necessities of the State. I can imagine a bargain being put up or a suggestion being made which would involve the State in doing something which the Government would not be prepared to do. If on any reasonable terms, within the possibilities of the State, the Ford industry could be developed and encouraged I think the immediate results which we will get are very small compared with the results that you will eventually get. I think in making that suggestion I am speaking not merely for the representatives of Cork in my own Party but I am speaking for the representatives of all parties from Cork.

Mr. COLE

I find myself in agreement with my colleagues in regard to the statements that a tax on tyres is not equitable to users of motor cars. The Minister states that by a tax on petrol he would get the same revenue as by the tax on tyres.

Mr. BLYTHE

No; by a tax on petrol and paraffin.

Mr. COLE

This, to people who live convenient to the Border, will cause an amount of trouble. We have a lot of bother at present, and apparently only those people who live convenient to the Border and have to go across it continually discover the trouble. People living away from it have no idea of the inconvenience we have to put up with, so I think we should try and get into close touch so that we would be running on the one line. I agree to a great extent with what Deputy Flinn said about damage done by a small car in comparison with the damage done by another vehicle. The two-ton van would be using about the same tyre as the 14-horse-power English car would use. It would be about the same cost. I do not say the same size. There would be no comparison in the damage to the road which the commercial vehicle would do in comparison with the 14-horse-power car. It would not cost as much as the two-ton lorry. I think it is hardly fair to tax them the same, and I think some distinction should be made. Deputy Flinn went a long way to talk of what was done in Cork and the Ford factory. I would like to hear some reason from him or somebody else as to how it comes that we are paying £130 for a Ford car in Belfast and £150 in Cork. There is some reason for it, and it should not be so. They should be equally priced, and I hope if the Dunlop people come here that we will not have to pay a higher price here than elsewhere.

Mr. BLYTHE

I will deal first with the point raised by Deputy O'Kelly and Deputy Flinn with reference to the Ford position. I do not want to talk very much about it, and I do not think it would help matters, but first of all no such offer as has been referred to by the Deputy was made. Secondly, the whole question of what can be done to encourage the Ford works in Cork to extend is under the active consideration of the Cabinet at the moment. If anything were to be decided on as a result of that this particular resolution would not prejudice it. As a matter of fact, if we were to have to do what is suggested and what, as a matter of fact, was considered three or four years ago in the interests of the Ford industry, that is; forming for the purposes of motor-car taxation a customs union with Great Britain and dividing the revenue on some basis, it would be necessary to pass this resolution and put our taxation on a parity with British taxation. It was not for that purpose that this resolution was framed. As a matter of fact, the consideration of this particular matter was begun, but it does not prejudice anything which it may be felt desirable to do in reference to the Ford position. I do not think it is necessary for me to say anything more than that.

Deputy Matthews asked if motor tractors were included. They are included in the resolution. When we come to the Bill, in the sections of which the provisions of the resolution will all be elaborated and modified, we will have to consider the question of these tractors specially. So far as ordinary owners of hackneys being able to compete with buses are concerned, I do not think we can do anything about it or, as a matter of fact, that it would be desirable to do something to compel people permanently to have to pay 3/- for something which they can get for 1/-. But this tax, by reason of the price of buses to those who are operating the bus service, may incidentally do something.

Deputy Moore referred to the question of the encouragement of electric vehicles. It is a matter to which I have not given consideration, but I rather think it is well worth it. It may be that there is not much prospect of the demand for the Shannon power being increased by any increase that may take place in the number of electrically driven vehicles, and it may be that a substantial demand could arise. That matter may be further considered.

Deputy Moore also referred to the outlook for the Road Fund. We have not made any proposals in this Budget with regard to taxation which feeds the Road Fund for this reason. We have been giving it consideration and had an Inter-Departmental Committee reviewing the whole matter, and the investigations are not complete. At present, the year for motor taxation begins on the 1st January, and even if we made changes now with regard to, say, horse-power taxation, they would not become effective until the 1st January next, and we felt it was better to allow the Committee to complete the investigation it is carrying on and make proposals in regard to the Motor Fund taxation later on in the year. We realise that what Deputy Moore says is quite correct; the prospects for the revenue of the Road Fund do not seem as good as they would need to be.

Deputy Lemass suggested that there are too many different types of motor cars in use and that it would be an economy to the State and that it might possibly lead to Ford's not being the only car manufactured here if we could reduce the number of types down to some small number. I do not know whether the Deputy mentioned five or six. I think that is right. I think that is true, but first, if we did that we would be undertaking something which perhaps a small country would have to undertake. Perhaps in this country if we want to have industrial development we will have to have more standardisation than is needed in big countries. But it is a new line of State activity and a fairly difficult line, because it is hard to do anything like that without inflicting grave injuries on individuals. Vested interests have been acquired; people have taken to a certain means of livelihood and are making their living in an ordinary legitimate way by that means, and it is extremely difficult to enforce the use of a small number of standards. I think it is a matter which, if it were considered as it may be, should be treated and dealt with entirely as a non-political matter, because I think it can only be carried through if dealt with in that way. I think it would be well worth making the effort to do it. For that reason, because I have felt some such thing is true. I was glad to hear Deputy Lemass make the particular remarks he made with regard to it.

Deputy Moore talked about the delays in clearing goods through the Customs. There used to be a great many complaints about that, and perhaps in the early days of the Saorstát there was some foundation for it before the Customs barrier, and before the people were accustomed to new conditions. Some two or three years ago a committee was appointed, with a member of the Dáil as chairman and two representatives of the motor traders and certain other people, and the gist of their report was that there were practically no grounds for complaint. I have not personally heard any complaints recently, and if there are grounds for complaint I certainly am not aware of them. There is no doubt that no complexity will be added to the situation by this tax, because it was as difficult a matter to pass through a free vehicle as a taxed vehicle, perhaps more difficult if anything. The tax on tyres does hit the private individual, but it hits him less than a 4d. a gallon tax on petrol, plus the horse-power tax, which would be the position across the Border. The position across the Border will be—and I suppose Deputy Myles, who lives close to the Border, will appreciate it—that people will have to pay the horse-power tax plus the 4d. tax on petrol. I have no hesitation in saying that the tax on tyres will cost the individual less than the 4d. tax on petrol. I do not want to go into this whole question of horse-power tax. To get the revenue for the Road Fund that is got from the horse-power tax would require something like 1/3 a gallon on petrol, or something over 1/- anyhow. It might be good, when this Committee that has been considering the Road Fund reports, to try a petrol tax. I do not think we could try a petrol tax in this country when the tax is high, because it is impossible to tax petrol without taxing paraffin. I thought that there would not have been the same incentive to evasion for the fourpenny tax. If the tax ran up high it would be impossible to administer the petrol tax without having a paraffin tax, because it is possible to bring in a grade of spirit that would not be classified as petrol and that would be free of tax, which could be used instead of petrol by adding to it a small quantity of a highly volatile spirit.

Major MYLES

Is not the petrol tax in the Saorstát already 2d. a gallon more than in the North?

Mr. BLYTHE

No. I presume that means that if the 4d. tax were put on here it would add about 8d. to the price.

Major MYLES

The price is higher here.

Mr. BLYTHE

We are not taxed.

Major MYLES

Yes, but it is 2d. a gallon higher. Yesterday we were 2d. dearer.

Mr. BLYTHE

Does the Deputy think it would be cheaper if we put on a fourpenny tax? I do not know what difficulties the Deputy anticipates at the boundary, as the result of the tax on tyres. I do not believe that there will be any difficulty.

Major MYLES

It depends on the regulations.

Mr. BLYTHE

There have to be certain formalities, and that will continue to be the case. Take the case of the Deputy who was using non-British-made tyres. There will be absolutely no change there. I do not think any substantial difficulties will arise. In reply to Deputy MacEntee, who referred to what was done in England as being preferable to a tax on necessities, the 4d. a gallon tax is also a tax on a necessity. It is a tax on paraffin. If we imposed a similar tax we would get almost half of the revenue from paraffin and that would be a very definite tax on a necessity. That would be a hardship on people in the country.

Mr. MacENTEE

Could you not exempt paraffin for domestic uses?

Mr. BLYTHE

That would not be possible.

Mr. LEMASS

I was wondering if commercial vehicles are not taxed at present.

Mr. BLYTHE

Except as to the bodies.

Mr. LEMASS

The chassis is taxed.

Mr. BLYTHE

No.

Major MYLES

I would like to ask the Minister if solid tyres are being taxed.

Mr. BLYTHE

Yes.

Mr. ANTHONY

Am I to understand that the whole question of the incidence of motor taxation in the Free State will come up for consideration at a later period, because I want to stress, in that connection, that it is absurd that a car weighing 35 cwt. and costing, say, £700 should be taxed at the rate of £15 per annum, while another car costing £360 and weighing 24 cwt. should be paying a tax of £28 per annum, simply because of the existing basis of taxation?

ACTING-CHAIRMAN

You will have an opportunity of discussing that later.

Mr. ANTHONY

I want to have an assurance that the matter will be gone into later.

Mr. BLYTHE

That will be dealt with later. As I stated, the taxation for the Road Fund is under active consideration at the moment.