Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 2 May 1928

Vol. 23 No. 7

GAELTACHT COMMISSION REPORT.

Dinim:

"Gurab é tuairim na Dála so nách ndéanfaidh ná rudaí atá molta ar an bpáipéar bán—ar a dtugtar Statement of Government Policy on Recommendations of the (Gaeltacht) Commission — an Ghaeltacht do shábháil, agus nách fuláir don Rialtas scéim chruinn ar a mbeadh moltaí indeunta do cheapadh láithreach agus suim áirithe airgid do leagadh amach chun na moltaí sin do chur i ngníomh gan a thuille moille."

Ba mhaith liom a rá gur mian linn cabhrú le haon Pháirtí atá ullamh iarracht do dhéunamh ar an Ghaeltacht do shábháil. D'iarr an tAire Rialtais Aitiúla orainn na poinntí do chur síos go cruinn beacht agus ár smaointe do nochta. Táim ag deunamh iarrachta chun é sin do dhéunamh. Isé ár ndualgas ár mbarúil agus ár smaointe do nochta. Dinimís iarracht chun é sin do dhéunamh anois. Dinimís iarracht ár dtuairim ar an Phaipéar Bhán do nochta; an Páipéar do scrúdú agus do chur i gcomparáid le tuarasgabháil Choimisiún na Gaeltachta. Ba mhaith liom san do dhéunamh tré Ghaedhilg ach ba mhaith liom, fosta, na Teachtaí uile do thuigsint a bhfuil le rá agam. Ní thuigeann ach beagán Teachtaí an Ghaedhilg. Is trua liom san agus ós rud é gur mian liom go dtuigfeadh siad an méid atá le rá agam labharfa mé as Beurla.

Some reference was made to this Commission in the debate on a Bill which was before the Dáil about a week or a fortnight since. I then asked in Irish: "Are we in earnest about this matter of the Gaeltacht and the salvation of it?" I referred not only to the Government benches, but to the whole Dáil—the Labour Party, the Independents, Fianna Fáil and Cumann na nGaedheal. I suggest that we should ask ourselves: "Do we appreciate the necessity for immediate measures?" If the Gaeltacht is not saved in this generation, it will never be saved. The Minister for Fisheries suggested that the Fianna Fáil Deputies would not approve of any good suggestions put forward by the Government. That is not so. I know I speak for Fianna Fáil in saying that we are willing to help any Party in the Dáil, or in the country, to save the Gaeltacht and to save the Gaelic nation. The Gaeltacht presents a great problem, the solution of which involves considerable expense. There is no doubt about that. It is a social problem that will have to be solved, apart from the language question altogether. It is an historic problem. There are historic reasons for the Gaels having been driven there, that I need not go into now. But, above all, I say that it is a national problem and a spiritual problem, because on its solution depends the death within, probably, a generation or the revival and the continuation of a Gaelic nation. We were asked by the Minister for Local Government to put up concrete suggestions. We were accused of having none. He said that the Government put up, in a clear and explicit way, what their proposals are. He asked us to come down to frank criticisms. I shall endeavour to do so, comparing the White Paper with the Report of the Commission, showing how little has been done and how much could be done. There are 82 recommendations made by the Gaeltacht Commission in the Report and, of those, fourteen have been adopted by the Government. That Commission was set up in March, 1925, to lead to a clear and definite national policy in respect of the Gaeltacht, and it is stated in that Report that in this policy of saving the Gaeltacht the Oireachtas and the Government of Saorstát Eireann are the appointed trustees.

I say that the Oireachtas—that this Dáil—are trustees as well as Cumann na nGaedheal, and that the responsibility will be ours except we try and unite to find some solution of the problem. How have the trustees so far discharged their obligations? "Our language," we are told in the letter written by the President to the Commission, "has been waylaid, beaten and robbed, and left for dead by the wayside." A patient in such dire straits needs special care and attention, needs nursing and special remedies. Many experts have been called in; they have given their opinions; they do not all agree. But while the experts wrangle as to what is best to be done the patient may quietly slip into the grave. It is beyond dispute that it is a grave economic problem, that considerable sums of money will be necessary to solve it. But we maintain, on this side, and I hope the Dáil will maintain, that the problem is worthy of spending millions on it, in order to solve it satisfactorily for a Gaelic Ireland.

It is stated in the Commission's Report that the language problem and the economic problem are in close relation to each other. The Commission recognises that, and the Commission, as requested, did consider both problems, and, on July 14th, 1926, presented the Report to the Executive Council, a Report that was published on August 23rd, 1926. That Report contains very valuable information; it contains excellent suggestions. It bears every sign of having been carefully and sympathetically considered, with an understanding both of the social, economic and national problem presented by the Gaeltacht. The findings of that Commission were hailed with delight by those who stand for an Irish Ireland; they were welcomed by the Gaelic League; they were welcomed by Councils in the Gaeltacht, and if measures were adopted in accordance with the recommendations of that Commission there would indeed be hope. "Hope deferred maketh the heart sick," and I can assure this Dáil that the hearts of the Gaels to-day, in Tirconaill, Galway and Kerry are sick and sore, for they believe that the promise will never be fulfilled. There has been, to my thinking, an inexcusable delay in setting up the machinery to put those recommendations into operation.

On March 29th last the Minister for Local Government asked what was to prevent that Report being discussed here during the last year and a half. "What is to prevent us"—I will quote his exact words—"from criticising the delay of the Government in saying what their intention was in connection with it?" Now, the onus of submitting schemes lies not on the Opposition but on the Government who set up this Commission. He stated, in the introduction of it, that they were bound nationally and in honour to give effect to the recommendations brought in by such Commission. On November 16th last I asked the Minister for Fisheries the following question—I will translate it—"When will the White Paper be published, or when may the public know to what recommendations of the Commission the Government intend to give effect?" The reply I got was: "The White Paper will be laid before the Oireachtas within about a fortnight. I hope it will be sent to the printers tomorrow." That was on November 16th last. The Dáil went into Recess on the 24th November and the White Paper did not appear till February.

I was not the only one who asked questions. There were questions about it before ever I came into the Dáil, and we were told to wait, that the Government was considering it. I put a Supplementary Question: "Could the Minister inform the Dáil whether the White Paper will mention a definite sum of money to be allocated for the carrying out of this work?" The reply I got was "The Deputy will soon have the Paper, and I think he should wait and see." We waited and what have we seen? That Commission Report was drawn up by men, I would say, who were in sympathy with the problem, who thoroughly understood the problem and who understood the national implications of it. The White Paper or the implementing instrument, was drawn up, I would say, by the heads of Departments who were civil servants, thoroughly efficient men in their work, I would say, but whose problem was to see how little could be done; to make the best show they could and spend as little money as possible. The spirit in which it is attacked may be the measure of our solution and the measure of our success when dealing with the problem.

In November, 1926, an All-Ireland meeting, at which all shades of political opinion was represented, was held in the Mansion House, and asked that this Commission's Report be given effect to. Doctor Douglas Hyde spoke there. "Money wisely and sympathetically spent," he said, "to reestablish on a firm and scientific basis the traditional industries of the Gaeltacht should repay itself within a few years. The best of our people," he continued, "were driven by Cromwell to Hell or Connacht... Give them but half a chance and they are the seeds of a great race. It was Hell or Connacht for their ancestors. It is to be Heaven or New York for them." He concluded by saying: "Even though all the recommendations, economic and administrative, should cost something considerable to carry out, it would still not be more than a fraction of the Shannon Scheme, and it will save the historic Irish nation, for it will preserve for all time the fountain-source from which future generations can draw for ever. It is the one way to save the Gaelic nation." Senator Kenny said on the same occasion that "on our action or inaction to-day depended the life or death of an ancient cultured language... It could not be purchased in the market place, and no efficient substitute could be found for it."

I maintain that the White Paper is not in accordance with the sentiments expressed in the Commission's Report or in consonance with the spirit of those who drafted it, notwithstanding the fact that it has been defended in this Dáil by the Chairman of the Commission. I should like, even at the expense of being tedious, perhaps wasting the time of the Dáil, or amusing the few Deputies who are here, to go through these recommendations seriatim and to put up a definite criticism of them. It strikes me that the purpose of this White Paper is simply to justify State action taken already, or State action in existence prior to the setting up of the Commission, or to justify the rejection of the most vital recommendations of the Report. There is very little cognisance taken in any part of the White Paper of recommendations that are directly vital for the preservation of the language, and no special moneys are allocated for putting the findings into operation. I would say of those recommendations twenty are vital for educational development, and of those twenty thirteen were definitely rejected or not acted on, four avoided, or indefinitely postponed, and three accepted in principle, but hedged around with a lot of conditions and only partly operated through ordinary machinery. I shall take the 82 recommendations. Of these 82, I said fourteen were adopted, and the numbers are 1, 2, 4, 8, 34, 47, 49, 51, 56, 68, 71, 72, 73, 74, total, fourteen. The rejected numbers are 5, 6, 12, 15, 16, 18, 20, 32, 38, 39, total, 10. Three are said to be solved by the preparatory colleges—3, 7, and 9.

Now regarding those preparatory colleges, I have here a letter written to Eoin MacNeill, Aire an Oideachais, 1923, dated 15th February, as follows:

"At a monthly meeting of the Executive of the Gaelic League a sub-committee was established to consider the question of bi-lingual schools and education in the Gaeltacht generally. It is the belief of the members of the Coisde Gnotha (the Executive of the Gaelic League) that the Government should provide special educational facilities for the Gaeltacht, because the Gaelic-speaking districts are generally poor."

"Therefore the children there have little chance of preparing themselves for training colleges, and it would be a disastrous thing for Irish if the material for school teachers were drawn altogether from English-speaking districts. The Government therefore should establish good intermediate schools, schools for teachers, and put the best teachers in them into the Gaeltacht. The Coiste Gnotha therefore recommends that there be established in the Gaeltacht intermediate schools in which will be taught ordinary subjects and in which full justice be given to Irish as a medium of instruction. The best scholars in the bi-lingual schools would naturally furnish material for these intermediate schools and would be excellent teachers later on. We recommend that such schools be established in the following districts: Decies at Ring; Co. Cork, Carbery; Co. Kerry, Iveragh; Co. Clare, Carrigaholt; Co. Galway, Spiddal, Rossmuck; Co. Mayo, Tourmakeady; Tirconnaill, The Rosses on Glenties. In addition there are intermediate schools in or near these areas already which should be Gaelicised in Dingle and Tuam."

So in implementing the report the Gaeltacht Commission can scarcely take credit for those schools which were suggested by the Gaelic League many years before and for which plans were prepared long before the Commission sat. So far for preparatory schools. Further schools are to take advantage of the Gaelicising of the training colleges. Something has been done in that direction but I wonder is there any college in Dublin on the road to becoming perfectly Gaelic even in ten years and in which those leaving preparatory colleges could continue their education in Irish? Other sections of the report are being considered and in that connection I would like to read paragraph 57 as an indication of how far such consideration is likely to lead us. It concerns the establishment of veterinary dispensaries. It says:

"The Government are prepared, however, to consider the re-establishment of dispensaries in any district where it can be shown that there is a reasonable prospect of their being availed of to an extent which would justify the expenditure involved."

I do not think that holds out much hope for the solution of that problem. In the same connection it may be well to look at paragraph 63, which refers to possible legislation, and it says:—

"If and when this Bill becomes law, application will be made to the Dáil, according as may be necessary."

Mair, a chapaill, agus gheobhaidh tú féar. Those fourteen sections are being considered, and if their consideration is being made in that spirit I do not think that much will come of it. Paragraphs 41 and 76 may be worth a glance. The first of these refers to District Justices and says:—

"This recommendation is accepted in principle and will be carried into effect in so far as suitable qualified persons are available. The extent, however, to which it can be carried out is restricted owing to the limited supply of suitable material."

Paragraph 76 deals with the survey of the mineral resources of the Gaeltacht. It says:—

"The Government will be prepared to consider the question of undertaking such a survey in any particular case where sufficient evidence is available of commercial prospects that would justify the necessary considerable expenditure involved."

I do not think that will get them very far in such a survey. They refer to the Report of the Technical Commission. That report is an excellent one. It is full of meat and requires to be digested slowly. In fact, I cannot say that I have thoroughly digested it and, not being gifted with as much grey matter as leaders on the front benches of the Government. I suppose I will be given more time.

Certainly.

As I said, it is an excellent report on technical education, continuation schools, and so forth, but there is this to be said, when it comes to be implemented if it is dealt with in the same spirit as has been displayed in the case of the Gaeltacht Commission Report, the bones will be picked very bare and there will be little left to the unfortunate native. On that point I will read a resolution passed by the Roscommon County Committee of the Gaelic League. It was proposed by a very reverend canon and seconded by a respected parish priest, neither of whom could be suspected of anti-Government tendencies. It says:

"The Roscommon County Committee of the Gaelic League is dissatisfied with the White Paper of the Government in relation to the Gaeltacht Commission, because it shows that the Government does not intend to do anything on certain matters for some time and does not intend to look to them at once. The White Paper makes it clear that no money will be given to improve the conditions of life among the people of the Gaeltacht and to stop migration, which has left 41,549 native speakers less in the Gaeltacht than there were fourteen years ago. According to the White Paper these native speakers will not get even a perch of land in preference to any other people who are being transferred, and several of the recommendations of the Commission will not be put into operation until the implementing of a report of another Commission, namely, the Technical Commission. The way in which the Government looks on this matter is at variance with the purposes and ideas put before the country by certain Ministers during the last few years, and we are convinced that the Government do not realise the urgency and necessity of attending to the problem of the Gaeltacht."

There are things in the White Paper which are good and commendable, as, for instance, the branding of mackerel. That would probably have been done if we never had the Gaeltacht Commission. The establishment of an iodine factory is an excellent idea. It will help, at least, to develop the kelp industry. The central depot is an excellent idea, as are a new inspector for homespuns and the Gaelicising of Galway University College. Then it is recommended that we appoint special in- structors in pig rearing, poultry keeping and the marketing of eggs. I imagine that would be done through the ordinary machine of Government if we never had a Gaeltacht Commission. There are points dealing with education, and also points in connection with industries, into which I would like to go very carefully. As regards industries, I maintain that the Trade Loan Facilities Act will not solve the problem. In a way, it is pawning the future and the people of the Gaeltacht have nothing to pawn in that respect. You want a suitable market, capital, goods to manufacture, and then a definite locus or centre for each industry. It is essential to get the home market first. Country shopkeepers want long credit, and the central agency depôt could advance loans guaranteed by the State. I will come to the question of a loan or a grant-in-aid later on, and of contracts with boards, institutions, hospitals, etc. In all such contracts preference should be given to goods from the Gaeltacht. It is better to give such a preference than to give doles, for famine relief, in the West, North-West, or South-West.

I think that an initial capital of £2,000,000 would be required to solve the problem. People will say that it is preposterous and that it is an extraordinary sum to ask for, but if we do not get it, I am afraid that we will not solve the Gaeltacht problem. I think we will want £2,000,000 at least to solve it. If you carry on, simply giving so much to each Government Department, without any definite sum for the Gaeltacht, we can never find out how much the Gaeltacht is to get, and I fear it will not get very much. In two answers given to-day we could not discover definitely how much was given to the Gaeltacht. As far as I could discover—and if I am wrong I would like to see it proved where I am wrong—the C.D. Board handed over £800,000 when it was taken over. I do not know what has happened that £800,000. The Minister for Fisheries on the last day gave high praise to a civil servant, Mr. Moriarty— I believe he deserved the praise he got —and said he had been an excellent man. He said that Mr. Moriarty would be connected with the new secretariat and that he understood the whole problem. I notice that Mr. Moriarty himself asked for at least £100,000 per annum to face the task. It is very difficult to keep a man in charge of a post who thinks that he has not the funds that will enable him to carry out the duties of that post.

On the occasion of the debate on the Secretaries Bill Deputy Tierney referred to the desirability of a Government grant for development and that that grant should be given without too much red tape. Deputy Law was of the same opinion. There is one danger in that matter. Deputy Law, I believe did excellent work in connection with the Congested Districts Board but there are two ways of looking at the problem. The Congested Districts Board looked at it as a social and as an economic problem that awaited solution. We should look upon it as a national problem, and I am largely in agreement with the statement of the Minister for Finance that were it not for the fact that it is a national problem and not merely a social problem, the best solution would possibly be to clear out the Gaeltacht. It is not enough to solve the social problem except you foster the language, and you must have that viewpoint in the administration of the whole scheme you are carrying out. It is quite true, as was stated in the Report of the Commission, that the Congested Districts Board did not solve even the social problem. They were terrified at the vastness of the problem and they got, as Deputy Mongan said here, other districts outside the Gaeltacht. They did things there and neglected the Gaeltacht, where the big problem is. As regards industries that might be established, the manufacture of blankets would be one. We are told that fashions change. Well, the fashion in blankets has not changed very much, and it might be possible to have blankets manufactured in the Gaeltacht. Then there are woollens, weaving and knitting, wood work, and perhaps small foundries, the making of gates, such articles as Shamrock shovels, and implements they require for themselves. There is also underclothing. In all those things we want to look for a home market.

The manufacture of homespuns is more or less a dead industry but I think it is an industry that could be revived. The people want training; they have to get away from the narrow looms of 30 inches and get those of 56 or 58 inches. You want, in addition to your technical experts, business experts. You want people to see that they use proper wool and proper yarn, for unfortunately it is true that, if the books of the Yorkshire spinners for some years past could be inspected, you would find that there was shoddy coming over here and that they were putting inferior yarn into the homespuns. In that way they did a lot of harm to the market we have in America. The first thing you would have to do, is to get a home market and later on we could look to the American market. The cloth should be inspected, certified and stamped as already suggested. The stamp would show whether the warps or the woofs were homespun, hand-spun or machine-spun. It should be all wool and not shoddy. In that way you might get confidence restored in those homespuns and a market established. Technical Schools in the Gaeltacht should be used in connection with these industries. It is admitted, of course, in the report of the Technical Commission that one of the serious difficulties in connection with technical education, is that it is completely out of touch with surrounding industries. It is not brought into relation with the lives of the people in the neighbourhood. They have a textile branch in connection with the Technical Schools in Belfast which it might be worth studying here. Belfast is still in Ireland despite the Boundary.

It might be worth studying to see what could be done in the technical schools in the Gaeltacht in that connection. There might be developed also, I think, an intermediate system of spinning for the homes. That is, intermediate between the factory and the crude hand-weaving. Later on we hope that you will have power-looms with electricity as the power. I quoted Dr. Douglas Hyde some time ago, who stated that the money put up would be a small thing in comparison with the money put into the Shannon scheme.

I am quite sure that Dr. Douglas Hyde did not mean to decry or run down the Shannon scheme. Neither do I. It might be premature, but there are so many millions of Irish money involved that it is the duty of all Irishmen to try to make it a success. I see the Minister smiling. He has the honour of representing the same county as I have. We have both the honour of representing Galway, but I do not think he can say that I ever criticised the Shannon scheme or said it should not be supported once it was started. The Minister for Fisheries, on the debate the last day, stated that the acid test was whether the people would put money into industries, or whether the industries were economic or not. We cannot look upon the matter in the light of whether it is economic or whether it would pay a dividend.

We cannot look at it purely in that light, for if all these industries would pay a dividend there would be very little need for the Government to look after them except to see that they did their duties, that they fulfilled proper conditions as to working and so on. However, I believe that in addition to the central depot you could establish a combined manufacturing and distributing depot in Galway and in Donegal, and I know men who are willing to put in pound for pound if the depot is started in Galway. So that will be the acid test if you like. As regards the cloth to be manufactured, you could start on medium cloth for a medium class of readymades. As regards the central depôt, I think it should be established at once. Supposing £2,000 worth of Irish goods are put into that, then you will get your expert and business men at once. You then have a market ready as soon as the goods are manufactured. It would not be a case of manufacturing goods first and allowing them to lie by and then looking for your market. As regards the business experts, there is at least as much need for them as for technical experts. I know of cases in which excellent goods were made in Donegal. Samples were made up from 14 of them. These samples were sent to America, approved of and sent home. I do not know how many gross of articles were manufactured of the same pattern, but I do know that 33 per cent. of them were returned as not up to the standard of the samples. One can see in that way the want of business experts to see that the articles are up to standard.

took the Chair.

In 1926 I found that we had importations of blankets amounting to £52,492; readymades, men's and boys' suits, £654,625; then of women's and girls' outer garments, costumes, blouses, overalls, etc., we had £1,500,000. I think that ladies' costumes, readymade, could be made in the Gaeltacht. It has been done very successfully in Gowran in Kilkenny, and I am sure they are quite as clever in the Gaeltacht, in Galway, Tirconaill or Kerry as they are in Kilkenny. The trouble is that the weavers have not advanced with the times as regards patterns, the type of goods, the width of the goods and so on, and they must be trained to do that. Perhaps the best solution would be to have a Development Board. At least I think it would be well to consider something like the Electricity Supply Board, but the Dáil should have more control over it than it has over the Electricity Supply Board, especially of that part of it dealing with finance. Give that Board £2,000,000 and get the people in by co-operation to take shares in it. After twenty years the industry would be owned by the people on the cooperative basis. That industry might have allotted to each county a definite sum of money. If you try to train your workers, establish your industries, get machinery and so on it is inevitable that you will have a loss for at least two years. That loss must be guaranteed against. A certain sum of money should be set aside for each of the industries, and that money could be drawn on as required. There are already, I believe, considerable quantities of Donegal tweeds on hands. That might be utilised for readymades, for boys' clothing, and so on, and could be made marketable. A good deal of it is not marketable at present. You get socks and stockings turned out in a very crude form at present. I have seen some recently in Dublin which would not be marketable anywhere. With a little training and supervision and some amount of time and energy very marketable articles could be turned out. As regards fisheries, I am not at all as despondent as the Minister for Finance seems to be. First of all we will take three propositions—(1) that the fish is there along the coast, (2) that there are fishermen, and (3) that there is a market for fish in Ireland. You have the fish, the fishermen, and the markets.

The first is admitted.

And the second not, but the third?

Doubtful.

Very well. You will have to develop a market, you will have to look to transport and conditions, and you will have to have a constant supply. You have two types of fishermen; you have the part-time fishermen and you have the whole-time fishermen. I do not know much about the solution of the part time fishermen, but I think the whole-time fishermen should be looked after. Standard boats, I think, would be required by the home market and have a few trawlers perhaps for going on the high seas and distant fishing. But standard boats would be required for the home market. Then you will have to get curing stations at the principal fishing places so that fish will not be as it has been recently and for years back on many occasions as near to us as Howth, thrown into the sea. You will have to get proper curing stations. Now there are whole-time fishermen there already. They should be utilised. In addition to that the Commission suggested, I think, that experts be brought from Brittany to train them into the whole art and science of fishing. It might be better to send, say, 20 young men, as I suggested in a previous debate, to Norway to learn everything about fishing, fish curing, and so on. They could be utilised to instruct others, and some of them could be put on the boats and others employed as technical teachers at the technical schools for fishing that should be set up. It will require some money to be put into it for a while. It is perhaps not strictly economic at the moment, but if it gives employment and keeps people off the dole, trains them to work at good employment, develops the home market and gets cheap food for the people, in the end though it is not economic now it will be economic. In Iceland a generation ago they had rowing boats like the Connemara people, and now the inhabitants of the west island of Iceland make £300,000 per annum on fish and they ship fish to Spain. If that can be done in Iceland I think it can be done in Connemara, but it will require money.

As regards migration, local migration is very good, but it is proceeding too slowly, and other Deputies who understand the conditions will have something to say on that matter. Deputies will have something to say about the type of land that some migrants have got in the Gaeltacht. They will also have something to say in regard to the recent Edenderry and the prior Roscommon scheme. Those schemes were on too small a scale to save the language. Thirty-seven Irish people in Edenderry could not do very much in that direction, and if there is going to be migration to longer distances it should be on a larger scale, a parish scale. I know it is costly, but one suggestion would be that such a parish area could be situated, perhaps, near Dublin. It does not seem to be thickly populated land from the Thatch for several miles out, and if you had within reasonable distance of the city an Irish-speaking parish set up it could be tried as an experiment and it would have excellent results as regards the Irish language.

As regards reclamation of land, I do not like, not posing as an authority on agriculture or land reclamation, to make many suggestions, but I do make this one, that crushed limestone or lime—it would be cheaper to get the crushed limestone—is excellent for reclaiming moor land and cut-away bog, and it should be utilised to a large extent in the west of Ireland, even if the limestone had to be brought from Arran to the coast opposite. The crushed limestone could be very profitably used, and the crushers used by the county councils could be adapted, with very little expense, for the purpose. As regards afforestation, there is, I believe, a Forestry Bill coming in, and the sooner the better. I believe what might be done with profit in the smaller areas is the growing of shelter belts. We are told that certain types of land will not grow timber. I have studied the method by which trees are grown in districts in Connemara and places in Kerry, and I have seen them in Tirconaill in very bleak districts—such places as that in which Mr. Bruce Ismay and others live over in Connemara, where they have shooting lodges and where they stay for considerable periods. They first build a bank six feet high and then they grow trees eight feet high. The next row of trees will grow higher. You could have shelter belts with great profit to the land. They would give shelter and they would give employment in very large districts which at present are not considered suitable for afforestation.

Another recommendation here is concerned with drainage. It is in Section 62, and it states:—

As many of the schemes are too small to be profitably carried out, one large scheme, which is outside the scope of the Act of 1925, for the improvement of Lough Corrib and the River Corrib, is at present being examined.

We would like to know how far the examination has gone. That is a very large scheme, which would involve something like £80,000. Riparian owners could not put up more than 20 per cent. of it, but it would reclaim at least 15,000 acres, and it would improve at least 20,000 acres more. It is a problem for the Gaeltacht, for it extends from Galway City to Lough Corrib and Lough Mask, right on the border of the Gaeltacht. It would give a good deal of employment. In addition to that, it will be economic in this, that it will save the health of the people there. I do not know how the people escape bronchitis and tuberculosis in the district. I was there about Christmas-time and I visited one farmer. I went across his farm in a boat, and he suggested that he could be bi-vocational; if the Minister for Fisheries could plant some fish there, for two months of the year he could fish, and when the floods departed he could farm a little. He said, of course, that this was land for which he was paying land annuities. I did not tell him not to pay the land annuities. I did not say anything. We are sometimes accused of advising people not to pay land annuities. I did not tell him not to pay them, but I told him he should see about them. I think that is a scheme for which funds should be provided, too.

There is one matter which I want to go into minutely; that is the educational question in connection with this Gaeltacht Report. The sections I will deal with are in the Commission's Report, page 59, No. 3. On the subject of educational facilities it says that a wide and fluent knowledge of the Irish language is to be regarded as an essential qualification for primary teachers in Irish-speaking districts or partly Irish-speaking districts. That, I believe, is to be solved through the preparatory colleges and the training colleges. I do not know if these preparatory colleges are keeping closely in touch with the Gaelic speakers that live around them. I asked a question relative to that matter some time ago, and I was told it was being attended to. The training colleges, I fear, are not becoming as Gaelic as they should. The sections of the Report that I have in mind are 3, 9, 12, 16, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 28, 29, 33, 54, 59, 61, 62, 64, 78 and 82. I would like whoever is responsible for the carrying out of this Gaeltacht Commission Report to consider how many of these recommendations, all of which I consider vital to education, are to be carried out.

As regards No. 6, I should like to read the opinion of the Rev. Dr. Corcoran, Professor of Education in the National University:

In the teaching profession in Ireland of all grades and kinds the national value of the Irish-speaking districts and the need of drawing on them to the fullest extent has not until recently been rightly appreciated. There is a very telling case for the provision of free technical and professional education for all boys and girls of reasonable ability in the Irish-speaking areas. They should be given exceptional opportunities for preparation for every type of work as teachers for all technological pursuits and for all positions calling for advanced scholarship and trained power of research. It is in such work that their special natural qualifications should be made to tell widely and soon. It is in this way that the gift of native speech can be made most serviceable towards the placing of the Irish language in its due place in Ireland and of being the ordinary vernacular for all kinds of thought and work."

I would suggest to the Minister for Education that it is not enough that Irish should be well taught in the schools through the rest of Ireland, that Irish should be compulsory or obligatory for the Civil Service or even for the University, if you do not cultivate the language in the Gaeltacht itself. It has suffered neglect for a few hundred years and it must itself be cultivated as a means of thought and expression in consonance with European civilisation. The language itself therefore must be cultivated. It is no use to have smatterers who have learned Irish here in Dublin like Deputy Cooper and myself. They are not going to save the Irish language. The idiom does not come trippingly to their tongue. We are told in one portion of the report that it would be a pity to draw for the Civil Service on these native speakers or provide facilities for them to become civil servants as they will be required as teaching material. In another place we are told that their standard of education is not sufficient perhaps to get them into the Gárda Síochána. It is a vicious circle. They are not educated enough to get into the Gárda Síochána or the Civil Service and the education was not provided because the people did not want it. The people did not want it because they saw nothing before them in the old days but slavery. They thought that to dig was their duty or to become labourers. Something higher than that should be in store for them and that will be got through educational facilities.

I think that an agricultural college such as is demanded in Section 25 should be set up for boys, say in Athenry, and that a school of domestic economy thoroughly Irish in spirit should be set up in Donegal or Clifden. We are told, of course, that there are some agricultural colleges down there and that they are open to Irish as well as English speakers. So are the Universities of Germany, Harvard, Oxford, or Cambridge open to Irish speakers if they care to go, but you want colleges or schools that will cater specially for the Irish speakers and train them through Irish-speaking instructors. That is not being done in the present agricultural colleges or schools of domestic economy.

Section 22.—Continuation Schools.— These are also essential in the Gaeltacht even if only half of those demanded by the Commission were set up. As regards a bonus for civil servants in the Gaeltacht. I do not see how it would be demoralising. It would be well if, like Pearse, we felt that our spiritual home was the Gaeltacht. He felt that he had come to his own home when he got to Rosmuck or Arran. It would be well if our spiritual home were there instead of —I do not suggest it is the case with any Deputy here—say London, Berlin or Paris—that our spiritual home was in the Gaeltacht. That is unfortunately not the case. Some of these might deem it a penalty perhaps to be sent to the Gaeltacht and I think that a bonus should be given to them at least for a time. They have got an extra national qualification and it would be right that they should get some remuneration for that as an inducement to go there. I am quite certain that if they had been there for a few years they would not want to leave it again.

No. 12 asks the Department of Education to publish a series of readers as models. It would be a very good thing. Some of the Irish readers turned out at present are fairly good from the language point of view, but most of them are very poor as regards content.

That is only natural. The firms are simply commercial firms catering for the market, and you have three or four getting out a certain number of books each. It would be a good thing if the Department of Education got out a standard in which there would be some thought and content as well as good Irish and allow the firms' books to get into the schools when they reach that standard, because the standard is too low at present. Getting out such a series for £1,000 would be £1,000 well spent.

No. 16—Day Secondary Schools.— We are told that the result would not be commensurate with the cost. We have got to raise the standard of education in the Gaeltacht. It cannot be done without these day secondary schools and higher education. It might well come. I am told that in Kerry and Ring you would get students for such secondary schools, and I am quite certain you will get them also in Connemara.

No. 20 deals with scholarships. Such scholarships as would induce children to attend the secondary schools, but these are turned down. You have to bridge the gulf from primary to secondary education and technical and university education and you have got to do it in the Gaeltacht. As regards No. 22—the Rural Continuation Schools in the Gaeltacht—I consider that is absolutely vital from the language point of view in the Gaeltacht. The Department of Technical Education has now instructors in the Gaeltacht, but they have to cover either counties or large areas. There are instructors in manual work and instructors in horticulture for men. There are poultry and dairying and domestic economy and hygiene instructresses for women. In the Gaeltacht they have agricultural overseers, but the areas to be looked after are too wide, being sometimes 12 miles in radius. An overseer in a 12-mile radius cannot possibly look over the work done by the farmers; he cannot return often enough to get proper work done and to supervise it. I suggest you should get one instructor for a small area, such as one large parish or two small parishes, and that he should keep in touch with the farmers there—all this through Irish, of course. There should be visits and lectures, even continuation classes in winter. That is recommended by the Technical Commission, by the way, so I hope it will be given effect to.

The period of 14 to 18 years of age is the trouble at the present time in Ireland, as the Minister for Education well knows. There is then a gap of idleness, a sort of time to loiter about before they can get away to America very often, and during these four years a person may become very nearly illiterate again. That sounds strange to certain people. But some years ago, when they were examining recruits in the French Army—and they have a long course of compulsory education there —they found something like 15 per cent. of the recruits had become practically illiterate again. Between 14 and 18 years of age is the period at which they are becoming semi-illiterate again and in which they are not doing very much. These are the impressionable formative years, and such continuation schools would do an immense amount of good morally, educationally and nationally. They could combine with the technical instructor already there, but in smaller areas an instructor for literature, music, folk-lore, and in that respect they could use, I am sure, a very large percentage of the Irish teachers. The course must be provided for them as has been requested already. Section 25 deals with agricultural colleges. These agricultural colleges will supply a great want in the near future. If you do not have such colleges, where are you going to get technical instructors who will know Irish or teach through the medium of Irish? You have already first-class men who could take charge of it. I do not know whether it would be out of order to mention civil servants who would be suitable. There are two men who could take charge of such a school, Messrs. Maguire and Luby, neither of whom I have the pleasure of knowing, so that I think it will not be suggested it is for political reasons that I put their names forward and recommend them. I am told they are excellent men at Irish and in the technical subjects. By Section 28 the Commission asks for a school in Dublin to train girls in domestic work. I think that is very necessary. They could get employment as nurses or at domestic work. I frequently get requests from Dublin to know where people could get girls as nurses for children and instructresses and so on, but the trouble is they are not trained. It takes a year or two to train them, but they could be placed if they got a year's training in such a school.

These are some of the points, and other speakers will put forward others. I think we should consider them, not on Party lines, but in order to see if we cannot do more than adopting merely 14 of the 82 recommendations, either rejecting, shelving, or putting the others on the long finger. It is said that their complete adoption would involve very heavy expenditure. It undoubtedly would, but if we do not expend that we have abandoned our ideal of an Irish nation. I am convinced of that. If we are not willing to spend that much it is hopeless to speak or think of making this a Gaelic nation. It cannot be done. I believe you would want more than £2,000,000 to save the Irish language. If you are not willing to give that, if you are only going in this small spirit to carry out a few of the recommendations—I do not like to say it, but it looks like sleight of hand, which is always clever—and to shelve the problem it would be more honest to say that "the Gaeltacht cannot be saved; we will let Irish die, and we will give up the idea of a Gaelic Ireland."

MICHEAL OG MAC PHAIDIN

A Chinn Chomhairle, ba mhaith liom-sa focal no dhó a rá ar cheist seo na Gaedhealtachta. Rugadh agus tógadh mé i gceart-lár na Gaedhealtachta agus ba chóir go mbeadh fhios agam goidé áit a luigheann an bhróg ar an Ghaedheal 'san Ghaedhealtacht. Níl, creidim, ar Mhór-Roinn na hEórpa indiu ceist eile mar cheist na Gaedhealtachta. Deirtear linn go bhfuil an cheist chéadna ag Gaedhil na hAlban acht ní hionnan an dá chás. Téidheann freumhacha na ceiste siar, i bhfad siar, i stáir ár dtíre. Téidheann siad siar na céadta bliadhan ó shoin, nuair a dhíbir an sean-námhaid ar sinnsear as talta maithe saidhbhire na hEireann, siar imease portaigh agus sléibhte agus cladaigh an iarthair. Tá a sliocht annsin ó shoin ó Cheann Mhálainn go Ceann tSáile—an líne no an trinnse deireannach de fhíor-chlann na nGaedheal. Mhair siad annsin ó shoin d'aindeoin sciúrse agus géar-leanamhaint agus cruaidh-smacht Gall. Gan mhaoin gan saidhbhreas, acht go bocht anróiteach, chongbhuigh siad beó tréithe agus béasaí agus cultúr na nGaedheal a tháinig chuca glún ar ghlúin ó aimsir Mhilidh Easpáine anall. Thug siad dúinne an tseod is luachmhaire dá bhfuil againn indiu— teangna na nGaedheal—an oighreacht sin a ghríosaigh an Piarsach agus go leór eile 'un náisiún glan-Ghaedhealach a dhéanamh den tír seo. Níl fód den Ghaedhealtacht, dá bhféadfadh sé labhairt, nach n-innseóchadh scéal ar ár sinnsear—ar dhílseacht a ngrádh tíre, ar a gcráibhtheacht, ar a gcródhacht ar a gcneastacht, agus dá bhrigh sin is dóiche nach bhfuil talamh ar an domhan chómh naomhtha leis an Ghaedhealtacht—talamh na máirtir agus na naomh, talamh na gcuradh agus na bpríomh-fhlaith, talamh na bhfileadh agus na bhfaidh. Seo an Ghaedhealtacht chéadhna atá ag iarraidh cuididh agus tárrthála ón Dáil seo. Is fada í ag fanacht go foideach le cuideadh uainn nach bhfuair sí. Anois níor chóir go mbeadh an scéal sin amhlaidh níos mó. Ní ceist páirtidhe amháin an cheist seo. Badh chóir go mbéadh sé mar chúram ar an náisiún go hiomlán agus os cionn gach gnaithe politidheachta. Creidim féin go bhfuil an Rialtas i ndáiríribh san obair seo acht caithfidh siad deifir a dhéanamh. Creidim go ndéanfaidh Fianna Fáil a ndicheall cuidiú leis an Rialtas san obair bheannuighthe seo agus a gcomhairle chur i gcionn a chéile gan éad gan imreas.

O tháinig mé go Baile Atha Cliath chuala mé daoine ag rádh go raibh Gaedheala na Gaedhealtachta fuar fallsa agus nárbh fhiú dadaidh a dhéanamh dóibh. Anois ní fíor an scéal sin. Gaibh na Rosa no go Conamara agus chidhfidh tú nach bhfuil siad fuar ná fallsa. Gheobhaidh tú na Gaedheala ag briseadh an talaimh imease na gcárraigeach agus ag triomú na gcurrach; gheobhaidh tú iad ag baint na móna agus á tarraingt ar a ndruim ar feadh mílte fada. Gheobhaidh tú iad amuich ag iascaireacht, ag troid le doinninn agus le stoirm na fairrge móire, agus na dhiaidh sin gheobhaidh tú iad ag ithe a gcuid bidh go tur gan súgh gan annlann. Cé dtig leis a rádh go bhfuil na Gaedhil seo fuar ná fallsa ná failligheach. Acht tá siad ag imtheacht uainn gach lá. Tá na sean-daoine dul 'na huaighe, acht níl neart ar sin. Acht mo léan géar! Tá an t-aos óg ag imtheacht 'na sluaighte gach seachtmhain go tíorthaibh coimhthigheacha. Chithmíd an bheó-shocraid sin de thogha na bhfear agus de rogha na mban ag gluaiseacht as Doire agus Corcaigh gach seachtmhain. Smuain ar an scrios agus ar an chreach atáthar a dhéanamh ar an Ghaedhealtacht leis an imirce seo. Seo an obair atá amach romhainn—an gad is neise don scórnach a scaoileadh agus cose a chur leis an imirce as an Ghaedhealtacht. Le seo a dhéanamh caithfear slighe bheatha fhóirstineach d'fhághail do na Gaedheala óga san bhaile sa chruth go mbheidh siad sásta fanacht ann. Ní thig seo a dhéanamh gan airgead agus tá súil agam go dtabharfaidh an tAire Airgid cluas mhaith don Ghaedhealtacht an iarraidh seo. Béidhmíd ag dréim le cuideadh fial fiúntach ón Aire Airgid. Tá fhios aige go bhfuil dualgas náisiúnta orrainn an Ghaedhealtacht a shábháil. Ar ndoighe ba chaol-radharcach, agus ba náireach an mhaise dhúinn í leigint 'un báis.

Tá orrainn-ne mar dhualgas an Ghaeltacht do shábháil. Ní chreidim go dtáinig ceist níos táchtaí os cóir na Dála ó tháinig an Dáil seo le chéile ná an cheist seo. Mar adubhairt an Teachta, Míchéal Og Mac Pháidín, talamh naomhtha isea talamh na Gaeltachta. Bun-chloch na tíre isea an Ghaeltacht. Is mar gheall ar an nGaeltacht agus an Ghaedhilge go bhfuil an Dáil ann. Ní bheadh an Dáil ina suidhe anois mara mbeadh an Ghaeltacht agus an Ghaedhilge. On Ghaedhilge a tháinig réim na saoirse agus a tháinig dúil i saoirse na tíre seo. Is cuma cadé adeireann daoine i dtaobh na Dála seo, is on Ghaeltacht a tháinig a comhacht agus a réim agus is mar gheall ar an Ghaeltacht atá an Dáil ann iniu. Ar an abhar sin. ní ceart dúinn cúl na láimhe do thabhairt don Ghaeltacht. Tá an cheist chó táchtach sin gurb é mo thuairim go mb'fhiú obair eile na tíre do chur ar gcúl agus rud éigin daingean do dheunamh chun ceist na Gaeltachta agus na Gaedhilge do shocrú. Ní dheunfaidh molta an Rialtais é seo. Do réir mar léighim san Pháipeur Bhán, níl siad ach ag deunamh muga maga de cheist na Gaeltachta. Níl san Pháipeur sin ach dallóg. Bhí dóchas agam i molta Choimisiún na Gaeltachta agus bhí dóchas ag muinntir na Gaeltachta ionnta fosta. Ach, nuair a tháinig na molta os cóir an Rialtais, rinne an tUachtarán dearmad ar a ndubhairt sé nuair a cuireadh Coimisiún na Gaeltachta ar bun. Do chuir an Rialtas na molta breaghtha seo ar leataoibh agus ina n-ionad thug an Rialtas an rud seo a cuirtear "An Páipeur Bán" air. Tá an Páipeur an-bhán; tá sé maol. Gach rud atá táchtach i dtuarasgabháil an Choimisiúin tá sé curtha ar leataoibh ar fad. Ní abrann siad ach go gcosnódh an rud seo agus an rud sin barraíocht airgid. Ní hé sin an sprid cheart. Ní féidir leis an Rialtas a rá cé mhéid airgid is fiú a chaitheamh ar an Gaeltacht. Ní féidir leo a rá cad is fiú an Ghaeltacht. Ní ceart an cheist do chur—"Cé mhéid airgid a bheas ag teacht isteach an bhliain seo no an bhliain siúd mar gheall ar an airgead atáthar á chaitheamh ar an nGaeltacht?" Is fiú níos mó dúinn an Ghaeltacht ná mar is féidir leis an Rialtas do chaitheamh uirthi—is cuma cé mhéid a chaitheann siad.

San díosbóireacht seo ba mhaith liom dá dtuigfeadh na daoine ar an taoibh eile den Tigh, agus an lucht oibre chó maith, nár cuireadh an tairisgint seo isteach mar chuis imris leis an Rialtas. Cuireadh isteach é chun iarracht daingean do dheunamh rud fónta do thabhairt chun cinn ar son na Gaeltachta. Mar adubhairt an Teachta Mac Pháidín, dá gcuirfimís ar gcinn le chéile agus comhairle do ghlaca le chéile, táim cinnte go dtiocfadh maitheas as. O tháinig an Rialtas i gcomhacht ní dheárnadh aon ní ar son na Gaeltachta. Is láidre gníomh ná cainnt agus má tá an Rialtas réidh fioriarracht do dheunamh ar son na Gaeltachta deirim go bhfuilimíd ullamh cabhrú leo chun an cheist seo do shocrú.

You may have thought, a Leas Chinn Comhairle, that I was breaking the rules of the House because I felt tempted to say a whole lot of things while I was speaking in Irish and to take advantage of your position in not knowing the language. I was tempted to say a good many things because I knew I could get away with them. Anyhow that is not the spirit at the moment I would like, in the first place, to appeal to Deputies on all sides of the House on this Motion to realise that the Motion was not brought in simply with the idea of turning the tables on the Government. The Motion was brought in to try and assist by criticism and suggestion and by putting all heads together to try and devise a scheme by which the Gaeltacht could be saved. We hold that this question of the Gaeltacht must be treated as an emergency question. You cannot allow it to go on much longer as it is. You cannot allow Commissions to spend a year or two years devising schemes or Departments or officials to spend a few months or a couple of years devising schemes. If you have any intentions at all about the Gaeltacht it must be treated as an emergency measure. I think it would be well worth the nation's while and worth the Government's and the Deputies' time, even if all Government work on hands at the moment were left aside, to have this thing gone into, so that some definite scheme for the salvation of the Gaeltacht could be adopted. At present there are people here who are not in any way interested in the Gaeltacht and I hold that nobody can realise the importance of this question except those who are in regular touch with the Gaeltacht. We, unfortunately, realise that to-day you have only the skeleton of the Gaeltacht. Compared with what it was ten years ago, it is but a pure skeleton. As Deputy Mac Faidín said, "Tá na sean daoine ag dul chun an uaigh agus na daoine óga ag dul thar sáile"—"The old, with their store of knowledge, are going to the grave, and the young are going beyond the sea."

You have everything against them. The very elements seem to be against the people of the Gaeltacht to-day, and while that state of affairs exists you must treat it, if you are interested at all, as an emergency question, and emergency measures must be introduced if you are in earnest about saving the Gaeltacht.

Take for a moment the schools. I have been in the schools in the Gaeltacht—in Mayo. At 12 o'clock in the day, if the teacher does not pay special attention to the children, if they are allowed to sit in the desks without being given special attention, or if the teacher is not in constant contact with them, they dose off asleep, simply for want of proper nourishment. The children have to come from four to six miles to school. They leave home in the morning, having only had a dry crust of bread and some tea. They spend the day in school, and they go back in the evening to their homes, when they have for their lunch the same tea that they had in the morning, with some water added, and perhaps part of the crust that was left over in the morning. During the day they have no lunch at school. It is very doubtful if they have even three meals a day. I have been in their homes, and the position of the children in the Gaeltacht to-day is certainly a disgrace to any civilised country. I have seen it myself, and I have statements from teachers about children going off asleep at 12 o'clock in the day through weakness from want of nourishment. The result of that will be that you will have growing up in the Gaeltacht weaklings who will not be even allowed to leave the country, and at the same time you will have those who are fortunate enough to get nourishment and who are able to travel, leaving the country to go to America. They go away with their store of the native language, with the idioms and beautiful blas of the language, and they go away hating the language, because it is but a hindrance to them in another country.

The railway stations in the Gaeltacht —I am sure Deputy Mac Faidín will agree, because the same thing occurs in Donegal—are more like graveyards than railway stations. Once or twice a week mothers and fathers are there, like demented people, crying and caoining those that they are sending across the seas. The weaklings are being left. They are growing up degenerates and consumptives, and they are becoming a burden on the county rates. Government Departments will know that there is in the Gaeltacht a greater demand for outdoor relief and for blind pensions than in any other part of the country, simply because of the system that exists. That is a position that demands that some emergency measures should be introduced, and every Deputy should do his whole endeavour to try and remedy those conditions. It is unfortunate that while that condition of affairs exists you have the Minister for Finance talking about national credit being high. When I heard the Minister for Finance talk about our national credit being high and the President talk about having rounded the corner, I could only feel ungrateful. National credit should be based on the social system under which people have to live. When I think of calculating what our national credit is, I look to the Gaeltacht, that part of Ireland which the nation cannot afford to do without because of the language, and I hold we have rounded no corner and that our national credit is in a very bad state while the Gaeltacht is in its present condition.

The Government have submitted the White Paper and, I suppose, they will tell us to-day that the suggestions and proposals contained in it are going to change the whole face of the Gaeltacht in a short time. They will probably tell us that nothing better could be introduced. I have read the White Paper but, for fear that I might be biased against it, I gave it to other people, to supporters of the Government, to read and asked them to read into it everything they could in favour of the Government. They told me that it was absolutely no use, so far as the real question affecting the Gaeltacht was concerned. I look upon it as a pious piece of villainy, if I may so describe it. It was, I believe, written by civil servants who were given to understand that they were to compile it from the Commission's report but they were to deal only with the economic side of it. They were to look to the money side and to pay no heed to the national side of the question. They were to put a money value on everything they did. They did that and when suggestions were made in the Report about certain relief being given and big schemes being carried out, the first thing they looked to was whether any immediate return would be got for the money expended. In drafting that White Paper they left the one big important thing out, namely, the national side of the question.

They calculated the value of improvements and made them out on a money basis. They put a price on everything but you cannot put a price on the value to the national language of having road schemes, afforestation, and migration carried out in the Gaeltacht. It is above that. It is a vital matter and no national government can put a money price on it. The Government will, of course, ask us what are our alternatives. I think Deputy Fahy has gone into that fully and has given many alternatives and suggestions. I, perhaps, would not agree with some of them but he, certainly, has made many suggestions. We admit that you cannot save the Gaeltacht and cannot carry on any proposal made for it without money. You have to realise that money must be spent on it in a large way but not with the idea of getting an immediate return. You must not look for economies immediately. That is a very short sighted view as, if you do that, you neglect the national outlook. First, you must decide either to save the Gaeltacht or not to save it. This or any other national Government, if it is in earnest, cannot afford to let the Gaeltacht die a sudden or slow death. It must prevent that and must be prepared, as I believe the country is prepared, and I believe every Deputy who realises the true position of the Gaeltacht is prepared, to assist as much as possible in seeing that the millions required to save the Gaeltacht are forthcoming.

A loan of two millions for that purpose would be subscribed, if not at home, certainly in America, within twenty-four hours. If you decide to save the Gaeltacht you must prevent the draining of its blood. A patient with a bleeding wound must get attention from a surgeon, and if the surgeon, instead of stopping the flow, administers a reviving draft but allows the bleeding to continue, he is guilty of a great crime. The Government proposed what no surgeon, except a bad one, would do and, instead of stopping the blood, it is trying to administer a stimulant. That is what the White Paper means. It is a stimulant, merely to keep people between hope and despair a little longer. There are a fw things in it which are commendable enough, but take the three or four big things, such as migration, forestry, the land question, and drainage. In dealing with migration, the White Paper states that "The the migration of homogeneous groups from the areas of extreme congestion presents numerous difficulties. The Land Commission is engaged on the migration scheme for South Connemara, as is explained in the note to Recommendation No. 54, supra, and this process will be continued where suitable opportunities and conditions offer." In the first place, the South Connemara scheme at best will only deal with 50 families. There are people better acquainted with the Gaeltacht than I, and they tell me that this scheme is foredoomed to failure. The average value of the land there would not be more than one or two shillings per acre.

Ce'n ceann é siúd?

Cluais. An bhfuil an ceart agam?

I am sorry An Leas-Cheann Comhairle does not understand Irish.

You said that before.

We are learning repitition from the Government benches. In regard to the Cluais Valley, we are told that we must wait for the success of these schemes before a big scheme is undertaken. "Local migration is being dealt with along lines that experience has shown to be feasible, but the process of resettlement is necessarily very slow and costly." We admit it is costly, but we do not admit that it should be as slow as it is. According to the White Paper, page 24, the Government do not intend to speed up this migration question more than they are doing. This, we are told, is the be-all of their policy. Their attitude is to continue in the same old way. If you do not deal with it in an emergency way, better not deal with it at all. The drain there is too great to withstand a slow movement of this kind. It says: "Until the process of migration in groups and units has been at work for some time it would be extremely difficult to estimate the extent of the economic problem remaining to be solved."

We admit that, but pious wishes of that kind are not going to decide the question of migration. The Minister for Fisheries recently went through the Gaeltacht counties to see the position as it stood and I do not think he will say, in all sincerity, that the proposals, unless there is a great deal between the lines into which I cannot read, are going to create any great change in the outlook of the Gaeltacht for the next five or ten years, if, indeed, there will be any great change to take place. We know that there will be a slow settling-up of the land question in the Gaeltacht, but if the Government do not tackle in a big way the migration question it is just as well for them to stop carrying on in the same old way. In regard to forestry there is a paragraph dealing with acreage and with the amount of money to be allotted. A new Forestry Bill is to be submitted by the Minister for Agriculture, but a statement appears in the recommendations to the effect that land is to be taken in the Gaeltacht for forestry purposes "provided the land can be acquired at an economic price from the forestry point of view." There again the question of money value is being dragged in by the Government. Do not attempt to save the Gaeltacht if all these things are to be done on a cash basis. It is not worth while if you want a return in cash next year. You are not going to get a return in cash if you plant trees there. If you are merely to consider the question as to whether land can be acquired at an economic price from a forestry point of view I would like to know what the forestry point of view is. We would like to know on what the calculations would be based.

As far as I know from areas in the West, such as Erris, and I am sure the same thing obtains in Kerry and other places, along streams and roads you find land that is absolutely useless, but it would be suitable enough for forestry. Along roads for twenty yards on each side or so through a mountain you find a certain amount of land which is drained and that would be worth planting. If you are going into the question with this outlook of pricing it from the forestry point of view, whether it is worth it or not, I do not think you will carry out any afforestation in the Gaeltacht. If you take up the planting of trees in the Gaeltacht in a large way, I think you will find that many small schemes can be carried out by local farmers. There are many farmers who have only three or four acres of arable land, as arable as it can be amongst rocks, with a few outlying strips surrounding it which is of no use for grazing purposes and of very little value of any kind. If small grants were given to these farmers and trees were supplied to them by the Government, it would be of some assistance to those people. Such schemes would have a great effect on climatic conditions in the Gaeltacht, a change that is very much needed for the health of the community.

The planting of shelter belts along roads and streams should be a very commendable work if only from the scenic point of view. It is said here that drainage schemes in the Gaeltacht cannot be considered as economic. We admit that. In the same way they want to put a cash value on everything they do. I know that in parts of the Gaeltacht, of which I have experience, in Erris, there are several small schemes of drainage that could be carried out with a small expenditure. Farmers with a few patches of mountain or bog are trying to live and rear families, and their farms are flooded year after year. The floods destroy their crops, but the big Government schemes cannot apply to these areas. I think if some small schemes were undertaken they would help these areas. The county council schemes will not ease this question at all. I know from discussions I have had with county councillors, engineers and people interested, that small schemes cannot be carried out by county councils under the Arterial Drainage Act. I think schemes such as this and schemes of reclamation are amongst the best projects upon which the Government could embark in the Gaeltacht. Schemes like that would change the whole face of the Gaeltacht.

Again take the question of roads. I am sure the Minister for Agriculture will say he does not think it a profitable scheme at the moment. I will admit that, but if you take the roads through the Gaeltacht, the road from Galway on to Clifden, from Carna to Clifden, or the road in Mayo from Ballina to Killala, on to Ballycastle, and from Ballycastle by the North Coast road to Belmullet, these roads, particularly the North Coast road, are very difficult to travel on. Cars can hardly travel on them. In this country you have a great expenditure by county councils from public funds to improve and build up a tourist traffic. Where can we bring tourists who want scenery that they can appreciate if you cannot ask them to the West of Ireland, where you have the wild natural scenery that is worth seeing in Kerry, Clare, Connemara, Galway and Mayo? I think special attention should be paid to those roads, because they would attract tourists and motoring people to those areas. It is not so much the amount that the tourists would spend in the Gaeltacht that I would value as the amount that the Government would spend on the roads. That would give an enormous amount of employment.

Apart from that, you have the housing question. The hovels in the Gaeltacht undoubtedly are not fit for cattle to live in. I have seen children who spoke beautiful Irish, gabbled it from their very cradles, living in these hovels, with one small window—hovels of one apartment.

You have children, often whole families, living—and I have seen them myself—in the kitchen where you have the cow; or you have a pig with them in the same compartment. There you have a trench across the floor. You have the mud, or rather the muck, cabin, not fit indeed for any human being and not fit for anybody to live in. I know that the Government, by one wave of their hand, cannot change that, but if they would go into the question earnestly they could devise a housing scheme for the Gaeltacht. Let them get out of this red tape about the height of the walls, the width of the gables, and all that sort of thing, and if the Government would allow a small grant to the farmers—one cannot really call them farmers, but residents in the Gaeltacht—for the purpose, for instance, of slating their houses, raising the walls of their houses, putting in large windows, and giving the houses a better and healthier appearance, if that were done, if some sort of a housing scheme like that, with grants of this kind, were brought in, it would be a great help to the people in the Gaeltacht. The people of the Gaeltacht are not, as they are often called, a decadent race, at all; they are not at all the decadent people that some people assume them to be. They are not the lazy loungers that some people call them. The people in Erris and Donegal and other places are quick to take advantage of any assistance they get, and if the little schemes that I have suggested were set up for the purpose of assisting them, they will be assisted. Help them to help themselves and they will do it quickly. There are a good many things which I think a sympathetic Government can do. In speaking of the schools, I did not mention the matter of school meals, but that is a matter that should be taken into consideration. It has been suggested here that this matter should be gone into by the Government. Delay in the matter cannot be afforded. They should see to this immediately, because there is very great need. Take industries. There is no such thing to-day as industries in the Gaeltacht. Let us realise that the industries in the Gaeltacht are practically dead. There are a few here and there, but those that are there are not paying. If these are to be developed you must not have the matter tackled in the usual red tape way through a Department. There must be that sympathetic feeling with the people who are working in these industries so as to be able to understand their point of view. You must come down to their level in the matter and not be doing the thing in the high-handed Governmental Department style. There is in Achill a lace industry. That is one instance of where a thing might be taken up by somebody who would put the necessary energy and capital into it. A certain branch of the Achill industry is a success simply because one interested party tried to keep moving with the times and tried to forestall the changes in style and things of that kind. The party that sells some wares in Paris tries to keep in touch with the styles required in London. That industry is a certain success at the moment.

If this central bureau is to be established by the Government with regard to the industries, they cannot afford any delay in the matter at all. I say that because the best people, the people who are able to weave and work in these industries, are idle at the moment, and if they can possibly manage it they will go to America. If the Government will take over that industry they can make it a sucescs. They have, I understand, more or less, under the Land Commission or the Minister for Fisheries, some of these things going on, but I know that the slow method that has been in operation for the last four or five years is nothing more than to allow the industry to die out in an easy way. We admit that it is a big and difficult task to tackle. All these suggestions that Deputy Fahy and I have made are big things. One might hear Deputies here say that the obstacles are so big that you cannot tackle them. Whoever drew up the White Paper looked at the thing from the point of view of the obstacles only, and did not make an effort to try to overcome them. The obstacles are big, but if the Government are interested at all in the Gaeltacht, if those on the Government Benches from the Gaeltacht or from other parts of the country that are interested in the Gaeltacht are agreed, as they are, that this matter must be solved, and that the Gaeltacht must be saved, then you will have to save it and you will have to do something big in the matter. I think really that there is very little difference of opinion between what I might say on this question of the Gaeltacht and how relief is to be given there, and what is to be done there, and what, for instance, Deputy MacFadden of Tirconaill, or Deputy Mongan, of Connemara, may say. I think we agree that it is a very big problem, and that it needs a serious effort to tackle and to save it. If the Deputies of the rank and file could agree on this question in that way, there should be very little differences of opinion in the House. Of course, if we take the view of Deputy Tierney on the matter it is quite a different thing altogether. Deputy Tierney's idea of the thing was, as he told us here a short time ago in a debate, that the people of the Gaeltacht must stand on their own legs and that we cannot afford to allow them any longer to be the paupers on the nation. I will not comment on that at all, but it comes very bad from a member of the Gaeltacht Commission, from one of those who was responsible for drafting the Gaeltacht Commission Report and making these recommendations to the Government. The Report and the recommendations of the Commission, which I think are very good, would go a long way to save the Gaeltacht. And then the Deputy who was responsible perhaps for drafting the Report tells us that the people of the Gaeltacht must stand on their own legs and must no longer remain the paupers that they are of the nation.

Is not Deputy Professor Tierney one of those responsible for the Report, and the Report does not state that they must stand on their own legs.

No, and that is the reason I cannot understand Deputy Tierney's statement.

You are taking it out of its context. You should read the entire statement and not take one little phrase out of its context.

It would not do any great credit to Deputy Tierney if I did. I will leave what he said to those who want to read it to ascertain Deputy Tierney's opinion on the Gaeltacht. When Deputy Tierney was playing to their fancies and weaknesses to get him elected to the Dáil that is not the sort of language he used.

Is not the Deputy saying the same thing himself that he says Deputy Tierney said? The Deputy says that the Government should help the people of the Gaeltacht to help themselves. That is just the same as what Deputy Tierney said, that these people should not be the paupers of the nation.

Perhaps Deputy O'Sullivan can twist the matter in his own way.

I am not twisting it. They are the Deputy's own words.

I make a present of that to the Deputy.

I say that whoever called them paupers should withdraw.

I agree with the Deputy that Deputy Tierney should withdraw the words.

Does Deputy Clery wish to withdraw his suggestion that the Government should help the people of the Gaeltacht to help themselves?

Not at all.

So that Professor Tierney is right. Professor Tierney said that they should not be the paupers of the nation. Is that what the Deputy is complaining of?

Perhaps from the lawyer's quibbling point it might be right.

He is right.

I agree with Deputy Mongan that the remark should be withdrawn by Deputy Tierney if he wants his views to be respected in any way.

On a point of order, from the Deputy's own words it does not appear that Deputy Tierney said they were the paupers of the nation.

What Deputy Tierney said was "that the people in the Gaeltacht are not to expect that they will forever be the paupers of the nation."

Exactly, that we must help them to help themselves, and that they must not be forever the paupers of the nation.

For ever.

Some phrase of Deputy Tierney's is looming too large in the debate.

It is because Deputy Tierney is in agreement with the Deputy who is speaking.

He suggested at one time they were paupers.

I will leave Deputy O'Sullivan's quibbling to help himself. I think the opinions of the Deputies on all sides of the House are somewhat similar on the question of the Gaeltacht. I would not like that it should be taken that we want simply to get this motion brought forward to defeat the Government and then to make a whole lot of talk about it afterwards. I am willing to concede that no one Party in this House can save the Gaeltacht.

Hear, hear.

You must have united action in this House if anything is to be done. The Government can very well throw the gibe at us and say: "What is your alternative?" That is no way to settle the question. We have given plenty of alternatives. The Government has been for the last five years dealing with this question, and they know themselves, having gone into the question, what has been done. I suggest that a start should be made now, and that a whole-hearted effort should be made to consider the people who get a living in the Gaeltacht. The people who exist in the Gaeltacht are well worthy of being saved for the Irish people. You have the best elements of life in the Gaeltacht. You have there a spirit of co-operation and a spirit of charity amongst the people. You have the spirit of charity that is only known to the poor, and you have the highest moral code of life in the Gaeltacht if you compare it with cities and towns. The life of the humble people in the Gaeltacht, the Catholic spirit which prevails there, is worth more than any amount of money that can be spent on it to save that spirit for the Irish nation. You cannot state in terms of cash what the saving of that spirit will be worth to the Irish people. I think we should enter into it here in the same spirit.

I do not want that we should go ahead in the matter of trying to score points. I think that would be dragging the question too low. If suggestions can be made and are being made we should accept them in good faith, realising that the whole matter is a very serious one. I would appeal to Deputies on all Benches to enter into this subject in a helpful spirit and try to solve the problem. I think the Deputies from my own county, Deputies Davin and Henry, and also Deputies from Galway, Kerry, Donegal and Clare, no matter on what Benches they sit, should all stand together. They all have the same interests involved and there is no suggestion coming from those Benches that cannot be made by the Deputies I have referred to. If the Gaeltacht is to be saved, Deputies from the West, from Donegal, Kerry or Clare cannot afford to remain divided. We cannot expect Dublin Deputies to put up a fight for the Gaeltacht if we who come from it and who believe in the possibility of its salvation remain divided. We should take a very serious view of the thing and put all our efforts into it and I do not see why there should be any failure. If all Deputies stand together, not only will they assist in remedying conditions in the Gaeltacht, but they may open new ground in more directions than one.

I regret that Deputy Fahy is not here. I am sure everybody in the House will feel that as far as this side of the House, at any rate, is concerned, we are facing this question in the spirit that the spokesmen of Fianna Fáil say they are facing it. They are not facing the matter in a party spirit and I am not facing it in a party spirit, because it is a problem that perhaps I, more than any Deputy, have been most intimate with in my position as Minister for Fisheries in the past five years. While I reciprocate all the sentiments that have been expressed by Deputy Fahy, and more especially by Deputy MacFadden, and later on by Deputy Clery in his Irish statement, I say also that there is a danger, just a danger, that the result of this debate will not have what I may call a very uplifting effect in the Gaeltacht itself or on the persons living there. There is just a danger that one might say too much, that one might pat them on the back too much, that one might say what grand fellows they are and they need never do anything else for themselves because we will do everything for them. There is just that danger. I am as anxious as anybody to do as much as I can for the western fishermen and for the people of the Gaeltacht, but I would like Deputies to feel that there is that danger and if there are any persons in this country who are susceptible to that kind of talk, it is those very persons.

Deputy Fahy in his opening statement—I think it was in English he spoke at the time—adverted to the saving of the Irish language from the Gaeltacht down and grew sentimental about that. I think if I take Deputy Fahy's mind back about 15 years ago, and even longer, he will agree it was a question that was very much disputed in the Gaelic League as to whether or not that was really the best way of saving the Irish language, from the Gaeltacht out, or spread it from Dublin where we had a live, enthusiastic Gaelic League. We had there persons who were interested in Irish, who were enthusiastic about Irish and about the spreading of Irish. The Deputy will probably remember that time. I will not say that I took sides either one way or the other. I had an open mind and I still have as to whether Irish can best be saved as from the Gaeltacht out or, on the other hand, by the enthusiastic persons you can get in the Gaeltacht. Therefore, from that point of view, the point that Deputy Fahy made is not one that I would take too seriously.

It has often been said that figures can prove anything. There are 80 definite recommendations in the Commission's Report, because the first two are mere definitions. Deputy Fahy has discovered that only 14 were accepted by the Government, and he instanced the numbers accepted and rejected. My reading of the White Paper is that, out of the 80 that remain after the definitions, the Government has accepted in full, as far as any responsible persons can accept them, 45, and out of the remaining 35 it has accepted, with modifications, 17; it has rejected 14 and has deferred 4, chiefly because the report of the Technical Commission was not then at hand. If Deputy Fahy would like me to give him my view, since he gave his figures of the recommendations that were accepted, partially accepted and rejected, I will give them to him. On the administrative side the Government has accepted 30, 31, 34, 35, 36, 40, 41, 42, 46, 47, 49, 50, 51, 52, and 53. That is a total of 15. On the economic side they have accepted 54, 55, 56, 57, 59, 60, 62, 63, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76. That is a total of 17. On the education side they have accepted 3, 4, 8, 9, 10, 13, 14, 21, 26 and 27. That is a total of 10, making a full total of 45. Of those accepted with modification on the administrative side you have 33, 37, 39, 43, 48. On the economic side you have 61, 67 and 79. On the educational side you have 5, 6, 7, 17, 20, 22, 23, 24 and 25, making a full total of 17. There were 14 rejected and 4 deferred, the latter being 64, 65, 66 and 78. Deputy Fahy has made the case that the Government has practically rejected or accepted with the greatest reservation only 14 of the whole 80. I hold that the Government has accepted 45 in so far as any responsible authority could accept them, and has accepted the further 17 with certain reservations. It has rejected 14 and has deferred 4 until the result of the Technical Commission is made known.

Deputy Fahy went on to speak on very many matters and he referred especially to the fishing industry, and I must say that it was rather interesting. We had all the essentials, fish, fishermen and market. It was admitted from this side of the House that he had number 1. It was a fair interruption in the sense that it is all very well to talk of the harvest of the sea, but how easy it is to blossom forth into a full-blooded fishing industry with a wave of the wand! You have the fish in the sea all right. You have only a very limited supply of fishermen. You have not a total of 2,000 whole-time fishermen in the Saorstát. You have a big number of part-time fishermen. As far as your market is concerned, there is your difficulty, especially along the western coast. The difficulty is to transport goods into the inland towns, say 50 inland towns. The fact is that you have no such market. You have not the market because, in fact, we are not a fish-eating people. We are not fish-eating in comparison with the people of other countries. We are per lb. per head far less fish in the year than the people of other countries. We eat far less fish per annum than the people of practically any other country in the world.

It is very easy to say "develop the markets and look to the transport." I can always stand up on a platform and say that what is essential is an inland market, that our people should eat more fish, that people should be found in inland towns who would set up shops to deal with the local demands, that some person should be enterprising enough to get a motor lorry and transport fish to the inland towns. These things are easily said but when it comes down to practice you find that they are not so easily done—unless, of course, you expect that the State will do everything. It is not expected in any other industry that the State is going to come in and run the industry for the persons in it. Nobody would dream of asking the Minister of Industry and Commerce to come in and run the industries of the country, or where there are not industries, to create industries. Nobody would dream of asking the Minister for Agriculture to run the farming industry of this country. You can regulate an industry. you can advise or help perhaps by persuading transport people and other persons concerned to come to the aid of an industry, but the State cannot be expected to run industries. If all came to all perhaps you might be driven to that, but where it has been tried as an experiment in other countries it has usually been a failure. With regard to the fishing industry, there was one outstanding failure in Australia some years ago. Before I come to that, however, Deputy Fahy, referring to the part-time fishermen, said that he had not any particular knowledge of them. Then he went on to refer to trawlers that would go out to sea, from which one might infer that he knew a great deal about the trawling business. I confess that I have far more knowledge of the part-time fishermen than of the intricacies of the trawling business, because that is the most highly-organised and highly-commercialised business practically in any country. The part-time fisherman is the one we all know and the one that must not be lost sight of, because of the fact that in dealing with the Gaeltacht qua Gaeltacht you are going to give more employment and you are going to retain the Irish language longer by subsidising the part-time fisherman than you are by blossoming forth into a stream-trawling business. If you are dealing with the question qua Gaeltacht, the best way will be to help the part-time fisherman, make the man who has a bit of land a better fisherman and a better farmer, help him by loans, etc., to be a better fisherman, advise him through the Department of Agriculture to improve his holding, and then perhaps aim at educating his son to be a whole-time fisherman. But from the point of view of employment, trawling will never give anything like the employment here that will be given by the inshore fisheries to the very nearly whole-time man, such as is given to the part-time fisherman during his season of fishing. I was saying that trawling was tried in Australia as a State scheme and after about one and a half years it was abandoned as a hopeless failure at a cost of something like three-quarters of a million. Of course, we could blossom forth into that if one were prepared calmly to mulct the general taxpayer in a gamble of the kind.

I will concede perhaps that we are conservative in our Department. We have been conservative, I will admit, because I do not see the force of going into a scheme which will involve the country in anything from about a quarter of a million to about half a million without knowing exactly where I am going to land the Department, and where I am going to land the fishing industry eventually, because holding hard and waiting and seeing how you are going to go on is far better than rushing into this thing in a flash-in-the-pan way, losing good State money, and, as a result, spoiling any future hope of private enterprise going into the same business. Failure would be disastrous, because it would discourage private enterprise from going into the business. That is why I have been so terribly conservative. At the same time I did try last year, and offered what I considered a very reasonable subsidy to persons who were inclined to go in for steam-trawling on the South and West coast. In spite of the subsidies, they were afraid of the proposition and turned it down. But I have not yet given up hope. As a matter of fact, there is still under contemplation something by which we might go into that, but at the same time I always hold that from the point of view of the Gaeltacht, of employment in the Gaeltacht for the Irish speakers, the present system of helping the part-time fisherman by the Fishery Loan scheme is a far more sound proposition.

Deputy Fahy referred to things which are being done in the ordinary course of events. He talked about teaching the curing of fish. That is being done where it is necessary. Where there is any demand to teach the curing of mackerel, herring, etc., we provide the curers. We have done it in the Deputy's constituency on many occasions. We did it in the South and West, in Cork, Kerry, Mayo, Clare and Donegal. On the question of fish-curing, Deputies should remember that that is one of the difficulties in the West. An inshore man fishing with a small boat is up against that problem, as fresh fish is out of the question for him. He has to send his fish too far away, and it is rubbish before it reaches the market, therefore he has to fall back on curing which involves capital.

It involves a man keeping a stock of salt and barrels for an occasional glut. It amounts to what he can stand when the weather is bad, when the boats cannot go out, he has to pay his curing hands when they are standing idle. It involves capital. In many cases we help in that direction, because in out-of-the-way places in Ireland on the West coast, in Connemara and also Donegal, stacks of barrels and quantities of salt are in stores. We even keep nets, and so on, for an occasional rush, because the fishermen are notoriously improvident in that way. It is only when they see the fish at their very doors that they begin to apply for loans. In an emergency of that kind we give authority to the local superintendent to give stock to our fishermen on ordinary security before they go through the necessary machinery. Sometimes, as a matter of fact, we have burned our fingers, and have been up before the Public Accounts Committee because of defaulters. On the one hand, we have to face the Public Accounts Committee for over-generosity, and, on the other hand, we have to face criticism for being the hardest-hearted in the world.

With regard to industries Deputy Fahy was rather vague. He recommended in one phrase weaving, among other things, and in the next breath he referred to homespuns as a dud industry. How he can reconcile recommending weaving and calling homespun industry a dud industry I do not know——

What I said was that in districts it was a dead industry for want of being brought up to date. I am afraid it is my pronunciation that was at fault.

I am sorry, but the Deputy must have spoken with something of a Northern accent. We are taking all steps possible to revive the homespun industry where it is least defunct. We are tackling that at present in portions of Donegal, and a scheme is before the Finance Department which involves the setting up of carding and dyeing mills and so on. The person in charge of this is the person I mentioned recently on the Estimates. He is also looking after the question of the establishment of a central depot here for the products of the rural industry classes. Deputy Fahy referred very rightly to the fact that what killed the homespun industry in the past was chiefly the importation of shoddy. I quite agree with him. It certainly killed the Donegal homespuns, and because of that we are now arranging that every weft that goes out will be branded for export. The Deputy accepted as a good thing something that is being done towards the branding of mackerel. A Bill for that purpose is actually under consideration by the draftsman. I hope when it comes before the House Deputies will be as enthusiastic about it as they have been in their demands for it during the time they were waiting for it, because I believe it will offend just as many as it will help.

Deputy Clery also referred to industries, and more or less suggested that the whole failure of the industries was due to something like the high-handed Government Departmental style of action. The industries are, of course, run by the Department of Fisheries or by the manageresses or industrial teachers employed by the Department of Fisheries. Otherwise they would not exist. Of course, any business person employing another person to run the show for him must take precautions that the show is run in an ordinary businesslike way as far as it can be run.

There are not businesslike propositions in a sense, because in almost every one of them something is lost, not through the fault of the persons in charge of the classes, or anybody, but because of changes of fashion. They had boom years during the war and made a great deal of money in certain directions. After the war this fell off. They had to try to teach girls employed in the classes a new style of business and so on. This change over from producing one commodity to producing another takes a considerable amount of time, and the girls' earnings are therefore for the time all the less. Deputy Clery, I think, referred to the value of the tourist traffic. I agree with him that the tourist traffic is a most valuable thing to encourage in the country, but I must say it is a very questionable asset to the Gaeltacht as a Gaeltacht. I think it tends to cosmopolitanise the Gaeltacht if anything. At the same time, I hold that the tourist traffic is something that should be encouraged.

I think as far as the Department of Fisheries is concerned they have helped in the development of the tourist traffic as much as any Department of the State, and that has been brought about by the several Fisheries Acts since the Government came into being, and by the better protection of the inland fisheries and the rivers, because angling is one of the attractions of the tourist traffic, and especially in the Gaeltacht. One would like to feel that there was a great deal of sincerity in saying that this should be a matter for the whole House and not for this party or the other party. There was an invitation to Deputies from all the western counties, as it were, to line up and say "Come on, boys, here is our chance now; let us do something for the Gaeltacht." I am afraid there was behind the suggestion a kind of innuendo that the Government were not really facing the situation. I dispute that; I believe that the Government, in the White Paper, has honestly faced up, as far as any Government could, to the propositions put up by the Gaeltacht Commission. I believe that within the White Paper a great deal of good can be done, both from the Irish language point of view and from the economic point of view of the Gaeltacht, through the special departments in which I am particularly interested, the Department of Fisheries and of Rural Industries. The Land Commission has already had within itself sufficient powers to deal with a great many matters. I believe that a great deal of good will accrue from the adoption of the recommendations by the Government, in so far as it has adopted them in the White Paper.

In rising to support the motion moved by Deputy Fahy, I would like to say that I believe that Deputy Fahy dealt with the question in a very elaborate manner, both from the point of view of the Irish language and from the economic side of it. I propose to deal with it more or less from the economic standpoint. In doing so, I might say that I believe, and the Labour Party believe, and the people of Donegal believe, that the Report of the Gaeltacht Commission is a very important document, because that Report contains many economic recommendations which, if put into operation, would help considerably to improve the poverty stricken condition of the people situated within the Gaeltacht. I think it was Deputy Clery who mentioned the fact that it was only those Deputies who had travelled in the Gaeltacht who really understood the poverty existing there. While some of the Deputies from city constituencies may think that things are bad in slum tenements, I believe that the conditions in the Gaeltacht are worse than in most places. Many of the people are unemployed; many of the small farmers and fishermen are unable to clothe and feed their families, and nothing but emigration is staring their children in the face. We, of the Labour Party, had hoped that the Government would have put into operation the entire economic recommendations contained in the Gaeltacht Commission Report, but we find that although two years have elapsed since that Report was presented to the Executive Council, owing to the dillydally, I might say slipshod, methods practically nothing has been done up to the present time, and the people living in the Gaeltacht, instead of getting the substance of those recommendations, have simply got the shadow; in fact they have hardly got the ghost of the recommendations up to the present time. There is no doubt that the policy of the Government, as shown in this White Paper, is simply to deceive the people. It puts me in mind of certain people who were operating in Dublin some time ago and who were known as mock auctioneers. They tried to make people believe that they were selling them something which was not what they represented it to be. I believe that this White Paper is more or less along those lines, in order to deceive people into the belief that the entire recommendations of the Gaeltacht Commission are being put into operation.

Deputy Fahy mentioned that only 14 out of the 80 recommendations were approved of by the Government. The Minister for Fisheries has disputed that. He stated that approximately 40 of them are being approved by the Government. Even that is only about 50 per cent. The Minister for Fisheries stated that he believed that the Government had honestly faced up to the problem of the Gaeltacht. Let us examine that statement. Recommendation 59 recommends that special grants be given for the encouragement of land reclamation. The Government policy states: "The Government are prepared to give effect to this recommendation and will have the matter explored with a view to the preparation of a suitable scheme.""With a view to the preparation of a suitable scheme," having this Report in their hands for two years! That is practically an admission that they have done nothing. If they had given proper consideration to this question of reclamation, there is no getting away from the fact that they would have given considerable employment to the people of the Gaeltacht and helped thereby to stop emigration from the Gaeltacht.

Deputy Clery referred in detail to the housing conditions in the Gaeltacht. He said that some of these houses were hovels, not fit for cattle to live in. I quite believe him. Nevertheless Recommendation 55 of the Report states: "That a special system of loans and grants be introduced for the improvement of houses in the Gaeltacht." The Government in stating their policy say that they are prepared to introduce legislation amending the Housing Act at present in force. They are still prepared to introduce legislation. Two years have elapsed and still no legislation has been introduced. I have received a considerable number of letters from parts of the Gaeltacht—from Burtonport, Dungloe and Aran Mor Island —complaining of the conditions under which the people live, that the roofs of the houses are leaking and that the people are in a poverty-stricken condition. Nevertheless, no legislation has been introduced to give effect to this recommendation. That is one of the ways, I suppose, in which the Minister for Fisheries believes that the Government are facing up, seriously, to the problem of the Gaeltacht. In Recommendation 63 we find it stated "That a comprehensive afforestation scheme for the gaeltacht be undertaken." The Government, in declaring their policy, state that up to the present 33,000 acres of land have been acquired in the country for the purpose of afforestation. The Minister for Lands and Agriculture, three weeks or a month ago, in reply to a question of mine, admitted that of those 33,000 acres of land acquired for the purpose of afforestation not one acre had been acquired in County Donegal or not one tree had been planted there. When he was pressed on the question, he said that in the future they hoped to acquire 1,000 acres for the purpose of afforestation. I hope that he will live up to his promise.

I might say that the policy of the Government in regard to afforestation up to the present time, as far as Co. Donegal, at any rate, is concerned, has been a failure. I hope when the Bill dealing with afforestation is receiving its Second Reading to-morrow that we will have a detailed statement from the Minister for Lands and Agriculture as to how he proposes to deal with this problem in Donegal and other counties.

Recommendation 67 is: "That the State loans for large boats and equipment be made in a certain number of cases on the character and ability of the person applying for the loan and on the security of the boat itself." The Government state they are unable to do that. Again. Recommendation 68 asks that a Government brand for mackerel be introduced and made compulsory. The Government are considering that. Is that one of the ways the Minister for Fisheries had in mind when he stated that the Government were facing up to this problem of the Gaeltacht? Recommendation 69 is: "That expenditure be incurred in providing small slips and breakwaters and in repairing some existing ones." The Government state their policy, and I wonder are they sincere in stating their policy? Do they really believe in the policy they have outlined in this recommendation of theirs? They state: "Provision has been made each year in the Department of Fisheries Vote for grants towards the cost of construction and repair of small harbours and landing-places, but in no year up to the present has the amount so voted been availed of fully." I suppose they mean to insinuate by that that there is not a demand for these landing-places or landing slips, as they are sometimes called. Some time ago I put down a question calling upon the Government to erect a landing-place at Inishfree Island, but nothing was done, although the Government state that up to the present full demand has not been made with regard to these landing-places or slips. Another demand went forward from Malin Head for a landing-place or a landing slip, and we find that the Government has done nothing in that case either.

Recommendation 77 is a very important one from a labour standpoint. It states: "That a special employment bureau be organised by the Department of Industry and Commerce for the purpose of exploring openings and assisting in placing the surplus population of the Gaeltacht in suitable employment." The Government, in outlining their policy, state that they believe that the existing machinery—namely, the unemployment exchanges—is quite sufficient to deal with the situation. If the Minister for Industry and Commerce were here, I would ask him is he sincere in stating that he believes that the unemployment exchanges provide sufficient machinery to get employment for the people. Does he believe that the unemployment exchanges, even in the city of Dublin, are sufficient for placing the unemployed people of Dublin in employment? Much less are they adequate for placing the unemployed people in the Gaeltacht in employment.

Even when the people in the Gaeltacht are forced to go across to England or Scotland to get employment, some of them get employment in insurable occupations, and when they come back to the Gaeltacht they find that the Unemployment Exchanges refuse to give them unemployment insurance benefit, because they state that they have not entered into a reciprocal arrangement with either the British Government or the Northern Government. It seems to me a very peculiar thing that the Saorstát Government could enter into reciprocal arrangements with the Northern Government and the British Government in regard to the Medical Register and in connection with dentists, and many other things, but when it comes to entering into a reciprocal arrangement that would be for the benefit of the working class people of the Gaeltacht or other places, we find that they have lamentably failed to do it.

Under the Ministries and Secretaries Act, it is proposed to place the Gaeltacht under the Department of Fisheries. To my mind, that is a most unsatisfactory solution of the problem, because the fishermen of Donegal and other fishing centres believe that the Department of Fisheries has not been as active in regard to developing Irish fisheries or in regard to finding markets for the fish as they should have been. It may be urged that insufficient funds are allocated to the Department of Fisheries and that that has been responsible for this laxity on their part. But there are other ways in which they could have been much more active than they have been.

I would like, in passing, to mention one of the lax ways in which the Minister for Fisheries is prepared to meet fishermen. Some time ago the Minister, in company, I think, with Deputy Roddy, had occasion to visit the Gaeltacht. He went to Burtonport, which is a big fishing centre. One would naturally have thought that he would have some sort of consultation with the fishermen there, but instead of having any consultation with the fishermen we find that he had a number of interviews with local shopkeepers. After that he called at Kincasslagh, another fishing centre, and had an interview with some of the shopkeepers, the fish-buyers and the fish-curers, but he had no interview or consultation with the fishermen, although they were very anxious to have a consultation with them.

Deputy Fahy has outlined the many ways in which the Government could improve the economic situation as far as the Gaeltacht is concerned. I should like to mention one way which has not been touched upon up to the present time, and that is in regard to the Department of Fisheries establishing cooperages either in Downings, Kincasslagh, Dungloe or Burtonport, in Donegal. At the present time thousands of barrels are coming in from the six counties, when these barrels could be made in the Gaeltacht and could give much-needed relief, and help to stop emigration. The old Congested Districts Board, as I mentioned before, established a cooperage there. What is hindering the Department of Fisheries from doing it now, when they have the Gaeltacht under their control? If they are anxious to improve the situation, why should they not establish a cooperage and thereby help to stop emigration.

Deputy Clery referred to the fact that the roads through the Gaeltacht are in a very bad condition and that much work which would be very beneficial to the unemployed could be given if proper attention was paid to the by-roads. I would throw out one suggestion to the Minister for Local Government. I understand that the grants coming from the Road Fund towards the upkeep of the roads are not allowed to be applied to by-roads. It is allowed, I understand, to be applied to main and trunk roads but not to by-roads. I would suggest that, so far as the Gaeltacht is concerned, some of that money should be allowed to go towards improving the by-roads, as it would help to give employment. The Minister for Fisheries states that one of the dangers in discussing this problem was that we might pat the people of the Gaeltacht too much on the back. I wonder was he sincere or was he joking when he made that statement. If he goes to Donegal and sees the poverty-stricken conditions of the people there, the conditions under which they live—sending their children into the market-place to be herded like cattle from morning till night and to be hired by farmers for one or two shillings a week—would he call that patting them on the back? In the Report of the Commission Mr. Moriarty recommends that a sum of £100,000 a year should be set aside as a grant-in-aid to the Gaeltacht. Deputy Fahy referred to the fact, and it has not been contradicted by the Government, that when the Congested Districts Board ceased to function it handed over a sum of £800,000. If that is so, and I believe it is, because otherwise Ministers would have contradicted it, there should be no reason why it should not be possible to carry out Mr. Moriarty's recommendation. I appeal to Deputies to vote for the motion and thereby demonstrate to the Government that in our belief the White Paper is not going to solve the Gaeltacht problem, that we call on them to put the full recommendations into effect, and that a grant-in-aid of £100,000 per annum be set aside for the Gaeltacht.

SEAN O GUILIDHE

Ba mhaith liom labhairt ar fad as Gaoluinn ach má dheunaim sin, tá eagla orm na tuigfeadh morán de na Teachtaí mo chuid cainnte. Rud eile, ní thuigfeadh na tuairisgeóirí mé agus ní cuirfí tuarasgabháil ins na paipéirí nuachta. Mar gheall ar sin, is éigin dom labhairt as Beurla, gan nios mó a rá as Gaoluinn, ná seo: gur baoghal liom go mbeadh deire leis an nGaeltacht agus le muinntir na Gaeltachta muna ndéanfar rud éigin ar a son gan mhoill.

I intended saying that I did not consider this to be a party question, and that it is a matter in which members on the other side of the House are as keenly interested, perhaps, as members on this side. I intended making an appeal to them as Irishmen, many of them coming from districts about which we are speaking, to be as anxious in this matter as we are, and to help us to find some solution of this terrible question. I am afraid, however, after the vote taken to-day that my hope in that respect is not as strong as it was. I am very much afraid that interest in the Gaeltacht problem is waning, that very little heed will be paid to the conditions of the people there, and that many people consider them a nuisance and wish that they were well out of the way. The statement made by members opposite do not hold out great hopes of a solution of the problem. Since the beginning of the debate to-day there have never been more than six or eight or, at most, ten members on the benches opposite. To judge by the interest shown so far in this problem we cannot expect very much help. I do not want to make pitiable appeals for the Gaeltacht. I have heard statements which are pitiable, but the people of the Gaeltacht are not looking for charity. They want help, and they should get it. If we were in earnest in this matter we would give them that help. It needs sacrifice and it calls for the expenditure of a considerable amount of money, but as many speakers have pointed out, money could not be better spent from the Irish-Ireland point of view. I do not appeal to those who do not believe in an Irish-Ireland.

Migration has been spoken of. In a certain village in County Waterford, amongst the Irish speakers, there are not more than one or two young girls. The population consists mainly of old people and children. The old people are dying, while the young people who speak Irish pass out of the country, and those who remain are, I regret to say, not getting very much help in the schools to preserve the Irish they have. Schools in the parish adjacent to Ring do very good work, but I am afraid the school in Ring is not giving much help in the way of learning the language in the district.

There is another matter to which I am rather reluctant to refer, but it is time that reference was made to it. I refer to the necessity of taking steps to see that Irish-speaking priests are sent to Irish-speaking districts. There are two priests in Ring who do not know a word of Irish; they never preach in Irish, and never encourage the people in any way to speak the language. I regret to say that that has often been so in the past. We hear a lot of talk about the spirituality of the Gael, the necessity of preserving Gaelic customs and traditions, and keeping out foreign influences which have a bad effect. We hear a good deal of talk about it, but that is all. Now, in regard to fishing, Ring is, or rather was, a fishing area. Sixty years ago about 300 fishermen lived by fishing in Dungarvan Bay, but now the fishing fleet there consists of only nine or ten boats. The Minister for Fisheries referred to the fact that the home market for fish is not very extensive, as we have not cultivated a taste for fish.

I believe that if the Irish people could get fish fairly easily and at a reasonable price, they would eat as much fish as any people in the world. They would eat as much fish as they did in the old days. I remember when I was young, the fishermen in Ring could supply fish at a very cheap rate, and I saw it bought very extensively in my own area. I was in Ring last evening, and out on the horizon all along the bay one could see the lights of trawlers. The fishermen said that they steal in at night and sweep every fish larger than a sprat out of the harbour. From Hook Head to Cork Harbour is swept with these trawlers. They are there constantly. They come inside the three-mile limit, and the unfortunate fishermen have to be content with what they leave. If greater supervision were exercised over these foreign trawlers the native fishermen would have a better chance of making a living. I agree with the Minister for Fisheries, that it would be better to subsidise part-time fishermen than to embark upon any system of steam trawlers. My complaint is that the fishermen have not been subsidised. They have no fish to catch, and the comparatively few men that are left are dying out. If things continue in the same way as at present the problem will cease to exist, because the people will be there no longer.

In the matter of afforestation, I would like to call the attention of the Minister to the fact that in the neighbourhood there is a considerable extent of mountain land which could be dealt with. I think the land is good enough to bear timber, and I would suggest that its possibilities ought to be investigated. If we cannot find sufficient fishing for the fishermen of Ring, let us try to find other means of employment for them. Afforestation is one way and if it were possible to do anything to improve the condition of the fishermen by supplying them with new gear, helping them to get gear, or improving piers, it should be done. We do not want to give them doles, but these men should get all the help we possibly can give them because we want to keep them there, and unless we help them they will not stay. In regard to reclamation, a good deal of the land in the neighbourhood is suitable for reclamation. I saw one man myself who, assisted by his family, reclaimed a section of mountain land and he made a success of it. That man had practically no capital. I think it would be possible, with a State-aided scheme, to succeed even better than he did. There is plenty of limestone in the neighbourhood which could be utilised. I think it would be possible to have a considerable amount of reclamation carried out in that way. There are many Irish speakers in the parish who are labouring men and who have large families. These men could be put on that work and the land could afterwards be rented to them. I think it would help to solve the problem. These things are not impossible, and with a bold attitude I think it would be possible to bring about many of these reforms in that neighbourhood.

In regard to housing, there is one solution of that problem to which I might call attention. Deputy Cassidy dealt with the condition of many houses in these places. Several of the houses in Ring are simply ruins. If the people got help to build their own houses, instead of sending them down elaborate plans from the Department, many of the houses would be rendered habitable with a little attention. If people could be supplied with materials they would be willing to put their own labour into the work. I have known people who built houses in that way and made very comfortable houses of them. Many of them were better constructed than more costly buildings. In Ring every year probably about 200 people come to the Irish College. If there were houses to accommodate them probably 500 would come. If the people had houses to receive visitors it would be a source of revenue to the district. These are not schemes which are in the air; they are quite practicable. I believe that we should investigate them and see if we can spend money in the district which would be a good investment. I want to emphasise the fact that it is not charity the people want. I would not like the impression to get abroad that these people are whining for doles and are not willing to help themselves. It was, I think, Deputy Tierney who remarked here on the last day that we should help them to help themselves. I do not take exception to that remark. If we are in earnest in our Irish-Ireland professions we ought to do that much at least.

I think it is common ground that this problem is of special importance, and it has a special significance from the fact that it is not merely a social problem, but that bound up with it is the question of the salvation of the Irish language. There is no doubt that the danger to the Irish language arises from the fact that the people who have it naturally have not any great conscious desire to preserve it. Furthermore, there is the fact that there is only a very small town population which makes use of Irish habitually and ordinarily. In Wales the language is not spoken by a very much larger number of people than the Irish language is spoken by, but the position is tremendously stronger in a great number of ways. I happened lately to be in what was really a very anglicised town in North Wales, and I went into a newsagent's shop and I was able to buy eight big weekly papers all printed in Welsh. I went into one of the churches on a Sunday. There was a crowded congregation of both young and old and the entire service was conducted in Welsh. A long sermon was delivered in Welsh, and it was followed even by the young people. In that anglicised town there is a better position in regard to Welsh than there is here in regard to Irish. Deputies know that lots of people of all classes in Wales consciously endeavour to speak the language to one another and keep it in use. Anybody who has crossed on a boat from Dun Laoghaire to Holy-head is aware that sailors and stewards who speak to passengers in English turn and speak to one another in Welsh.

The position in regard to Irish is very different from that. There are, of the people who inherit the Irish language and who are really the custodians of the Irish language, really a small number who are very anxious to keep it alive, to use it and transmit it. The majority do not care. They use Irish simply because it is the language which comes easiest to them. It is necessary that their point of view be changed. I do not think that what is being done in the schools—and a great deal is being done and a great deal can be and will be done— is sufficient. In spite of that you cannot really keep the Irish language, because it will die at the roots unless people in the homes in what are now the Irish-speaking districts will speak it, and unless the children going out of these homes will continue to be Irish speakers. You cannot deal with that problem simply and solely by economic remedies. You might do a great deal for the economic conditions of the people in the Gaeltacht, and they might only cast Irish away from them faster than people in what are now half Irish-speaking areas have done it. On the other hand, I think the attitude that does exist cannot be changed without some improvement in the conditions. I do not think that the people— that is the majority of them, and I am not speaking of the odd family now and again—will have the heart to do anything consciously to keep Irish as their family language unless we get some improvement in their conditions.

I do not believe we can do anything at all by way of the large scale migrations that Deputy Fahy referred to. I believe if you even brought fifty or one hundred families from any Irish-speaking district and put them into County Dublin, with the present spirit in regard to the language, they would all be speaking English in their homes in a very short time. In many cases it might be no harm to move families out, even knowing that, and to use the land which they would vacate to increase the holdings of the families remaining, and improve their conditions. Migration is undoubtedly draining people away from those areas, and to some extent, some people must leave those areas. Even if we did a good deal for industries there are areas which cannot support the populations that grow up in them.

It seems to me that one of the things we ought to do is is to try to take a considerable proportion of the young people who grow up in the Gaeltacht areas and make teachers of them. The present system in regard to admission to the Preparatory Colleges, it seems to me, will not enable that to be done. This is a matter which I was discussing with the Minister for Education the other day. It does not matter if you have the papers set in Irish and if they answer in Irish, because the people in the really Irish-speaking areas are poor, and the teachers are often not as good teachers as elsewhere, and you will find that children in better schools from English-speaking districts fairly well taught in Irish, will get all the top places in competitive examinations. The suggestion that the Minister for Education and I were discussing was that a proportion of the places in the Preparatory Colleges should be reserved for pupils of National Schools in the really Irish-speaking areas; that the inspectors should conduct some sort of examination in those schools, and they should select a number of pupils who seemed most likely to make suitable and efficient teachers. They could then, perhaps, arrange for giving some special coaching to them, if necessary, to bring them up to the standard of the lower classes in the Preparatory Colleges, and so secure that a substantial proportion of the future national teachers of the country will be men and women who were brought up in districts where the home language is Irish, who were educated in schools in these districts where Irish is the medium of instruction, and who were afterwards through the Preparatory and Training Colleges. That is one method by which we can do something that is quite defensible on every ground, and will make the people of those districts feel that there is some material advantage in this heritage which they have.

Great difficulty has been found in supplying a sufficient number of police who know Irish well for the Irish-speaking districts. It seems to me that we might gradually, though this is a more difficult thing, make some special arrangements to favour the people of those genuinely Irish-speaking areas and make them again feel that they had the advantage. It was arranged when some additional money was given to the Galway College that a certain number of scholarships would be given by the college to young people from the Irish-speaking areas. Those are all things that can be extended. The setting up of an institute in Dublin for the training of girls as nursery maids and, I think, as nursery governesses can again be made use of to bring the lesson home and to bring a new attitude to the people of the Gaeltacht area. I think they should be trained as nursery governesses, because my own opinion is, that if girls from the Gaeltacht are trained as domestic servants, they will remain a very short time in Dublin and they will go to America. If you train them to act as what are called nursery governesses, I do think a great many of them might remain.

However, I think it is necessary, in these and other respects that we can think of, to make the people of those districts feel there is a material advantage for themselves and for their children in making a conscious effort to retain Irish as their home language. I believe their attitude will be determined largely by the attitude of the country, and I have no sympathy with the people who denounce the inhabitants of the Irish-speaking districts, who see no interest in the language, and who are, perhaps, quite as anxious as not to get rid of it and make English the language of their homes. They are only trying to do what the rest of the country did in the last generation. They are, in a sense, following the rest of the country, and I think their attitude can only be corrected by what will be done by the rest of the country. I think our educational policy is proceeding along the right lines to change their point of view. We must get to the position where any Irishman who has any pretence of being educated and who is to have any hope of any of the public appointments, will be a person with a knowledge of Irish.

I believe that the use of Irish in the schools and the necessity that already arises from having Irish, on the part of anyone who is to become a teacher, and the increasing use of Irish in higher education will create an atmosphere which will affect the people of the Irish speaking districts. The atmosphere of course has been that all the time all the power of wealth, all authority and influence were in the hands of those who had no Irish at all. That must be reversed. You can only do it comparatively slowly. For instance, if the position were that every national teacher in the country knew Irish thoroughly and was capable of teaching the children through Irish a tremendous lot could be done in the schools that is quite impossible now. You cannot get a supply of teachers who are fully qualified in Irish except by degrees. We came to the conclusion that we had to have these preparatory colleges as well as making a change in the training colleges in order to get these teachers properly trained. It was only by degrees that secondary schools that are endeavouring to give instruction through Irish are able to get qualified teachers to do it. In many cases they are held back by that difficulty.

Then there is the question of books. Certain steps have been taken by the Department of Education to provide school books. They have not gone far yet. I was speaking to the head of one of the preparatory colleges quite recently and he said to me that they were not very badly off for textbooks the first year; that they managed all right the second year but that when it came to the third and fourth years there were no suitable textbooks in Irish. I suppose there are people in the country who are capable of translating suitable textbooks or of writing original textbooks if we increase the inducements. Now anybody who presents a textbook fit for publication will be given a certain sum of money down for his work and he will possibly get additional remuneration later if it is a success. At any rate the position is that there is an extreme shortage of books. If you come down to general literature, anybody who takes up a paper and sees the multitude of books that are coming out in English every week will see the contrast. I suppose a person who settled down to read, if he were a voracious reader, could go through the bulk of what is available and published in Irish at the present time. But I think there is as much money in the Estimates as can reasonably be spent on this work at present. My own opinion is that for a considerable period of years we must be prepared so far as the people will write books in Irish to spend considerable sums of money in the publication of books of all sorts; novels, histories, and every sort of books that the people will require to read in Irish. But the people of the Gaeltacht who are very poor may not read many books; and it seems to me necessary to create a new attitude in regard to the Irish language. You want to create there a new attitude. There are two problems closely bound together here and you will do nothing for the Irish language by merely pouring out money in the Gaeltacht. As I have said, I believe something has to be done for the improvement of the material conditions of the people in the Gaeltacht. But that will not of itself do anything for the language.

I feel more deeply about the language question than I do about any political or any other question on which I have to express an opinion. I believe that the work that is before us, the actual saving of the Irish language, is a work of great difficulty. I am satisfied that we can do it. I am satisfied, on the other hand, that it is not any easy task, and that the policy that has begun in recent years will not merely have to be continued but it will have to be extended, and I would say that we are extending it from month to month, and many more new steps will have to be taken. We indicate quite a new line in this White Paper when we say that, in view of the difficulty of Irishising the courts because there are not solicitors and barristers who have Irish, we will take steps to provide that people who are of a certain age will not here after be able to enter the legal profession without a competent knowledge of Irish. What has been done is only the beginning, and it is a matter in which we must go ahead by degrees, taking one step after another. I am satisfied that we can and that we must save the language. But it is very big problem, and it will require the co-operation of all people who are interested in it, and I believe there can be no continuance of national life without it. Now to come to the material side: Deputy Fahy said that he would take these recommendations and report seriatim, but he seems to have taken them in an order the furthest possible from a seriatim order. There is no use in looking at the Gaeltacht Commission Report as some sort of inspired work and asking us to believe that anything that departs from one of the recommendations is necessarily wrong. On the other hand, we should not be blamed for having started something before the Report was produced, such as the Preparatory Colleges, nor yet should the people who drew up the Report be blamed for having mentioned them, because public steps had not been taken to set them up. I think it would have been more satisfactory, and we could have followed Deputy Fahy more easily, if he had taken the White Paper seriatim and gone through it paragraph by paragraph. I found it very difficult to find the places he was referring to, because he had gone on from a particular point before I found the paragraph he was dealing with. If he goes over it he will find that while in many cases the proposals set down in the White Paper differed somewhat from the recommendations in the Report, they are directed in many cases towards the same end, and if he had compared the two in detail he would find it less easy, I think, to condemn the White Paper.

I have just noticed a point about the payment of a bonus to civil servants. I personally was opposed to the payment of a special bonus to civil servants in the Gaeltacht, as I think it is quite unnecessary. We are now recruiting civil servants who are capable of doing official work in Irish and in a very short time, I believe, we will be able to fill the posts in the Gaeltacht with these civil servants. I believe that the case for insisting upon a competent knowledge of Irish would be weakened if we began to give a special bonus. This is a separate matter which we could discuss at great length. I am as anxious to have Irish used by officials in the Gaeltacht as anyone could be, and I am satisfied that there is no need for the bonus, as we can get the whole thing on a better basis by insisting rigidly on a knowledge of Irish from those who enter the Civil Service.

The position is different with regard to teachers, as we do not control their appointment and cannot move them from place to place. There is a tendency, because the Gaeltacht areas are poor and remote, for competent teachers to try to get schools elsewhere. I am satisfied, and it is agreed in the Report, that in order to retain the best of the teachers, or some of the best, in the Gaeltacht and induce them to become efficient some special payment should be made, and a scheme is being drawn up in regard to that. The case of the police and civil servants seems to me to be different. They can be sent anywhere, and we can get sufficient recruits who have a knowledge of Irish. We are accomplishing all that is necessary, without incurring what is really unnecessary expenditure, by forcing home the idea that it is the duty of civil servants without any special remuneration to do their work in Irish and become competent to do it.

With regard to the directly economic matters, Deputy Fahy talked, for instance, about blankets. I understand that half the woollen factories in the country are engaged in blanket-making, and it is not likely that very much, if anything, could be done by way of giving employment through their manufacture in the Gaeltacht. I do not know about foundries or some other things, but in some areas you have special industries, like silk-weaving, which are carried on because you have some person with artistic tastes who founds an industry and controls it. These industries very often depend on the work, inspiration and direction of a single person, and you cannot set them up to order by the fiat of a Government Department. On the other hand, although the Gaeltacht Commission do not stress this matter heavily, it seems to me that in order to maintain the population where it is for the sake of the language and to improve the conditions as much as they can be improved, it is worth while conducting a number of industries, under the auspices of a Government Department or somebody subsidised by a Government Department, knowing there would be some loss, but knowing that the people would in the main be definitely earning what they were paid. Perhaps the Government subsidy might amount to certain marketing charges and some overhead expenses—the expenses of tuition and training. While the Gaeltacht Commission do not stress it very much, it seems to me that money should be spent on industries of various kinds.

But even supposing we had a considerable number of those industries, they would only help some of the people. We cannot have huge factories. We cannot really teach more than a small percentage of the people, but we can, I think, do something by extending help to rural industries of various kinds. I am inclined to think that in many cases we will do better by having some sort of school or small factory established, and by having people working together under supervision, than by home work, though that is a matter on which there might be disagreement.

As to reclamation, something can certainly be done by that means, perhaps a good deal. A small beginning has been made. It is proposed to extend the work on the reclamation of land. In some places the amount reclaimable is very small; in other places there may be considerable quantities. I think we must face the question of the reclamation of land, even if the land when reclaimed is of a good deal less value than what was spent on it. But I think it is one of the ways in which we can deal with the problem. There are other ways by which we can do a great deal of good, such as by the making of bog roads, roads to villages and houses. By that means you put some money into the pockets of the people while the roads are being made, and you make it possible for them to use carts where at present goods have to be carried either on the backs of animals or on the backs of the people. A good deal can be done by degrees by some movement of the population. From the point of view of becoming Irish-speaking, moving the population is a dead loss, but if a reasonable increase can be made in the holdings of those who remain, then it is worth doing, because we will then have people who can avail of any educational facilities we give them, and who will be able to continue at school.

When talking about the selection of people from the Gaeltacht for the Preparatory Colleges, I forgot to say that my view was that these people should not merely be admitted to the colleges free, but should even be clothed. Although at present students entering the colleges have to pay something, have to be clothed by their parents, I believe that the people selected from these poor Gaeltacht areas should come to the colleges free of all cost, should have their travelling expenses paid by the State, and, if necessary, should be clothed by the State, so that there may be no obstacles in their way. If we can improve the condition of the people by some of the methods suggested, we will make them better able to take advantage of any facilities we give, and we will make it easier for them to respond to a change in what I call national policy, to a change in the outlook of the people as a body towards the language, and if we do that, we solve the language problem.

I personally do not see any prospects of such development of industries in these areas as would keep the population there that is there at present. I do not think that a population as big as at present can be maintained there. Locomotion has become easier, knowledge of conditions elsewhere has become easier. People will be less willing to remain in the sort of economic conditions in which they remained in the past; they will come out of them, and I do not think that we can maintain the present population. What we must aim at is to maintain a sufficient population to have the traditional life and attitude carried on, and to have the language retained in its full vigour.

Forestry has been mentioned. Of course it can contribute too, but I think the Minister for Agriculture has previously dealt with that and has shown that the idea that waste lands can be afforested is a myth. Land to be suitable for growing trees must have a definite value in itself. In some cases you will not get land for afforestation because it is needed. It has a definite value as grazing land. The amount of labour that will be given by afforestation having regard to the amount to be expended is comparatively small. You have to buy the land, get the seedlings and perhaps bring them from elsewhere if you want to seed hurriedly. You have to bring your fencing perhaps to a large extent from elsewhere. You do not get industries that arise out of the existence of forestry for a generation. While something can be done by afforestation the amount I do not think is large. I think the things we can do are constructive relief work, such as roads and drainage and land reclamation, which in many areas can be done on a considerable scale and in respect of which we must face the loss that will accrue, the additional cost of reclaiming the land over the value of the land when reclaimed. The other things seem to me to be industries which may have a very appreciable effect, although they cannot touch more than a fraction of the population. There is the question also whether the increase in the number of agricultural overseers and other help might not enable the population to make better incomes by increasing the raising of poultry, the keeping of pigs, and whether something might not be done in that way.

With regard to fisheries I do not know to what extent the Minister for Fisheries dealt with that. It seems to me it is an extremely difficult problem. I undoubtedly only see one side of it; perhaps I am pessimistic. We have not many whole-time fishermen. Even if we had, I do not think we could do much towards solving the big problem we are trying to solve. Perhaps these people would gradually go away from their areas and pass to other places if you had them as whole-time fishermen who went where the fish are to be found. If we deal with part-time fishermen they are under considerable disadvantages. Transport is a considerable disadvantage. Then for our population there is a very small market for fish at home. There is nothing more difficult than to change the habits of a population. There is one thing I feel with regard to it and it is this: That we are spending a certain amount of money year by year. If a well-thought out scheme were propounded it might be better to face a period of five, six or seven years during which considerable expenditure would be made to determine whether even with large expenditure there could be considerable development in the fisheries. If there was, then the expenditure would be justified. If there was no substantial development, then we would know we could not hope for very much in the way of fisheries development. The Government is very anxious to face up to this whole matter, with the knowledge of its importance from every point of view. It is as urgent as the ordinary human problem of poverty and distress in Dublin and places where there is no Irish. It is a vital problem from the point of view of the existence and continuance of Irish nationality, but there is no good in discussing it from the point of view—I think this is a fair criticism to some extent of Deputy Fahy's speech—from the point of view that the Gaeltacht Commission produced some kind of inspired document and that any departure from that would be wrong.

Deputy Fahy referred to a great number of things like veterinary dispensaries and all that. While we could go into them at great length, I think they are minor matters. It seems to me that the kernel of Deputy Fahy's motion is that there should be some specific sum fixed and set aside for expenditure on the Gaeltacht. I do not think there is going to be any advantage to the Gaeltacht by fixing a sum. I think, propably, in the long run the Gaeltacht would come off less well by fixing a sum which would be the amount to be spent there on special services irrespective of needs. I think it is much better to face up to the needs and do what seems to be useful and practical and give fair results for the money: to have this problem before us always and to have it before us in the Estimates and not to have it relegated either to bodies outside the Dáil or pushed aside by fixing some specific sum for it. There is no doubt there may be certain advantages in Congested Districts Board procedure. There are some little difficulties in connection with accountancy when the whole money is voted by the Oireachtas, but these are difficulties that could be overcome. So far as all sorts of small schemes are concerned, which are usually the schemes upon which expenditure is decided and money is spent and which have to be carried out quickly, we can provide for these without any reference to the Department of Finance. So far as any big schemes are concerned they can be foreseen, and there is no need for the delay of having to submit these to the Department of Finance.

I do not want to refer to a Bill which is not before the Dáil at the present moment, but we intend to do more than merely join Fisheries and the Land Commission in one Department. We are going to put additional staffs into the new Department, and these will be people who will be selected as being able to examine the problems arising in connection with the Gaeltacht and help to devise specific remedies. It would be very little, but perhaps some advantage, if it was merely lumping the two Ministries together. It is more than that. We could have had more useful criticism than the criticism of Deputy Fahy. He spoiled his subject, to some extent, by covering so many of the recommendations instead of devoting himself to the more important ones. I do not think that the Deputy got down as well as he might to the hard facts of the case. I submit that the Gaeltacht Report is a very valuable report. It was not that we had not been doing things in relation to the Gaeltacht before, but it does give a survey of the problem on a scale that we had not before, and it is consequently a most valuable report and a most stimulating report. It put anybody who read it—it certainly put me—thinking of new things that might be done. It put my mind to work on the problems of the Gaeltacht, but it was not the final word, and I think while the White Paper may have more of the treasury angle in it, it certainly is also a useful document, a document which, if read fairly, will have much the same effect on the reader as the original White Paper had. It may point out difficulties in carrying out many things, as there are difficulties. There were recommendations in the Gaeltacht Commission's Report which, while desirable in themselves, were things to which there were such objections that they could not be carried out. I refer, for instance, to the question about moving out certain school teachers. The White Paper points out difficulties in the original Report, but it does not deal with the matter in any other but a fully constructive spirit. We have not money to burn, and, however anxious we are to help the Gaeltacht, we must always look at the money side of what we are doing, and we must do the things which are necessary, but we must try to do those things in the cheapest way. We gain nothing in the long run by throwing out money. I think here we are up against a problem which is, if you are thinking of a complete solution, insolvable, owing to the povery of the area, and difficulties of a physical sort, but it is a problem which we can go a good way towards solving. I will end by saying it is my principal political interest, and I am satisfied that we have entered upon the road that will do the most that can be done towards solving it.

I thoroughly agree with those speakers who have emphasised the difficulties of dealing with this proposition of the preservation of the Gaeltacht. It is a most difficult proposition, but if the job is worth doing at all, it is worth doing well, and the bigger the difficulty is the bigger the effort should be made to overcome all the difficulties that we may meet. The Minister for Finance, in drawing a parallel between the Gaeltacht and Wales, emphasised the fact that there was no conscious desire on the part of the people of the Gaeltacht to preserve the language, and he told us that that is not the case in Wales. When we seek for the cause of that effect we have to trace back to find what is at the bottom of that conscious desire in Wales to preserve their language, and what is at the bottom of the minds of the people of the Gaeltacht when they do not seem to have that conscious desire to preserve their national language. When we come down to bedrock we find that it is a question of economics. In Wales, for some generations, the use of the Welsh language has never been prohibited, nor have the people ever been penalised for trying to preserve their national language. At their great national festival, the Eisteddfod of Wales, you have the most prominent people, politicians and others, taking an interest in and encouraging the use of the language, and native music. All this goes to show that the people were encouraged, as far as it was possible, to preserve their language and customs. You had coal mines where the people were allowed to work; you had copper mines, and all the other subsidiary industries.

That is where there is the least wealth.

In the Irish Gaeltacht you find that for generations it has been a crime to speak or to pretend to have a knowledge of Gaelic. From the time the landholders in the Gaeltacht had to go with their hats in their hands to the landlords' agents down to comparatively recently, people were almost afraid to let it be known that they had a knowledge of Gaelic. It has been thrown at the people of the Gaeltacht that they reared their children merely for the purpose of emigration. Nothing else ever stared them in the face but emigration. They have been called lazy, they have been called thriftless. But nobody who has ever gone round the Irish-speaking areas of Donegal can say that the people are either lazy or thriftless. From the age of 8 or 9 years the children are brought to the hiring fairs and hired out for 6 months in order to try and help the rest of the family to eke out an existence. When they grow to the age of 15 or 16 years they go across to England or Scotland and they work there, saving all they can to bring back to help to support their fathers and mothers. Nobody who has ever seen them work on the little patches of land —little patches like a patch-work quilt —can ever say that those people are either lazy or thriftless. They certainly are a thrifty people, because with them a few shillings even means the difference between a mere living and a death from starvation.

There are three main points in connection with the Gaeltacht—first of all, the land; secondly, the fisheries, and then, the local industries. As I said before, it is most difficult to deal with this problem. Certainly from what I have seen of the Land Commission there will be no facilities, at least for a time, given for taking over some of these people en bloc, even to the outskirts of the Gaeltacht and settling them on the land where they may be in touch with what we now regard as the Gaeltacht. In all fair play I must say that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Fisheries certainly seems to know his job, but whether it is due to the system he has inherited or not I do not know; there is too much delay in taking over land that might be divided among people who are now on uneconomic holdings in the Gaeltacht. As regards fisheries, I agree with part of what has been said by the Minister for Fisheries—namely, the subsidising of farmer-fishermen as against the adoption of the trawler system. Undoubtedly, if it were possible, and if the money were available, farmer-fishermen should be subsidised to the extent of providing boats and gear. In that way they could eke out what they already are able to take from their uneconomic holdings, but from what I have seen of the attitude of the Minister for Fisheries hitherto, unless there is a radical change, we have not very much hope for the future in that respect. We were to have before now a revaluation of the boats and gear given to fishermen during the boom years of the War. Boats and nets at that time cost three or four times what they would cost now. Consequently, when the boom period ended the men were not able to keep up their deposits on the boats and gear and the Government acted the part of Shylock. I gave one specific case here, and I do not want to refer to it again, but the Government, as I say, acted the part of Shylock and insisted on getting their pound of flesh. There was to be a revaluation in order to give the men an opportunity of paying a reasonable amount on their boats and gear, but that revaluation never took place.

The Minister made a statement to the effect that there is a certain amount of money available for repairing small slips and piers, and he said that that amount had not been fully availed of. I quoted here some time ago instances in which I asked the Minister to have repairs carried out to slips and small piers, instances in which men had to wade over the waist in stormy weather to reach their boats. In no instance were repairs carried out, yet the Minister tells us that the money is there and that it has not been availed of. Any evening off the Donegal coast during the fishing season one can see Scottish, English and French trawlers and drifters fishing inside the three-mile limit. I put a question some time ago to the Minister in regard to the collection of fines imposed on foreign trawlers, but he quibbled by saying that he had no jurisdiction outside the Saorstát. I know very well that he has not, but the quarrel I have is that he does not seem to have any jurisdiction inside the Saorstát. He said that I must be mixing up two things—territorial and extra-territorial waters. I was not. My contention was that fines imposed on foreign trawlers for fishing inside the three-mile limit were not collected. How could we expect foreign trawlers to stop stealing the fish from our own fishermen when such is the case? I acknowledge that the cost of patrolling the coast properly would probably be more than we could bear, but at least in cases in which the s.s. "Helga" arrested foreign trawlers, the fines should be collected. That would provide a salutary lesson to the remainder of the poachers.

In regard to the third point, namely, the rural industries, the Government recently appointed an inspector to deal with the homespun industry. If some of the recommendations in the Report are carried out thoroughly, and if a determined effort is made, it will have a big effect on the Gaeltacht. It has been alleged with some truth that those who were engaged in the homespun industry helped to destroy it. It was not so much those actually engaged in the manufacture of homespun who were responsible for destroying the industry as the dealers who bought it. When they bought a web of homespun they took it home and stretched it between two donkeys until they made forty yards into sixty yards. That was done during the war when you could sell anything at all. Notwithstanding the fact that those who were weaving the homespun used only fourteen reels instead of sixteen or eighteen, thus making a cloth with a loose texture, one could not blame them, because for generations they and their people had been so persistently robbed by landlords and gombeen men they must have felt that they were only getting a little of their own back. Inquiries revealed the fact that there is some difference of opinion as to whether all the wool used in the homespuns should be homespun or partly machine-made. I believe that the inspector has been making inquiries relative to that, and I imagine that he came to the same conclusion as I did, namely, that for the present, at least it would be better to use homespun wool and machine-spun warp. It was the shoddy machine-spun warp that caused the decline of the homespun industry in Donegal. If the machine-made warp is to be used it should be manufactured wholly and entirely in Donegal or whatever part of the Gaeltacht it is used in.

If the inspector really means business, if he gets all the facilities which the Government could give him, and if there is no cheeseparing about it, he could make big changes in the homespun industry. With the standardisation of material and the introduction of new patterns much could be done, but if there is no radical change in the attitude of the Government I am afraid it will not be done. The old people to whom I have been speaking are very sceptical about it. The inspector had been round with them, but they had such experiences of Governments—I am not speaking of this one particularly—they had doubts about it. Any assistance that we can give them will be given, but if the inspector is not thoroughly on the job he will not get time to fall asleep, at least, if I can help it. As regards lace and embroidery, it is not because of the Government that these industries exist, but rather in spite of them. I think that the Government could very well take lessons from those around Mountcharles who are carrying on this industry. They are giving a great deal of employment, and the material which they turn out, such as Spanish shawls and bedspreads, could not be surpassed anywhere in the world. I say that practically as an outsider.

I think the Government should take a lesson from the push those who are carrying on that industry have shown. They might very profitably take a lesson from it. I believe if the Government could give them assistance by advertising these different products it would have a big effect and it would cause a great increase in employment there.

It is very difficult for us to transport ourselves in imagination from this atmosphere of thick pile carpets and central heating, through Barnas Gap and Glen Columcille to Glenties and away through Glendowan to the Rosses of Donegal. However a little picture of the conditions there might not be out of place. Some Deputies probably do not know much about the conditions. As Deputy Clery said, you have children who have to travel three and four miles to school. I have seen them going along country roads, some of them with boots without stockings. Probably their people could not afford them. Sometimes they would have the stockings without the boots. These children have to start early in the morning for school. They have to start very badly fed and very poorly clad. Anybody who knows Donegal in winter time or even in autumn or spring knows what it is to travel along country roads during these seasons. You had an instance some time ago where the wind blew a train off the railway track. Think what it means to those young children going along these roads to school, sometimes in their bare feet, very poorly fed and very badly clad. Picture again their fathers across in England or Scotland trying to knock out a few pounds that will keep the family through the whole year. Think again of the condition of people with small farms who are severely hit owing to the agricultural depression. You have all heard of how badly hit farmers were in the more prosperous parts of Ireland. Think what it means to those people to whom a patch of land as large as this building would seem a pretty good-sized farm. The conditions around them have been such that they have fallen into arrears of rent and annuities. They have not been able to pay. As a consequence, you have organisations started for the purpose of protesting against the payment of annuities and rent. That is only to be expected.

We have to look at this from the humanitarian point of view as well as from the point of view of the preservation of the language. The two things are absolutely interdependent, because if you look at it from the humanitarian point of view, if you give the people an opportunity of feeding themselves and clothing themselves, the language will take care of itself. I am reminded of a little piece of doggerel I heard once. It is supposed to be composed by a tramp who had slept at the Vale of Avoca. It said:

Oh Vale of Avoca, Tom Moore called you sweet,

But if he had to lie out, without blanket or sheet,

Sure he would care not a hang where the bright waters meet.

Can anybody blame the people, who do not know where their breakfast is coming from, if they do not care where the language goes to? Make them self-supporting, if any effort of the Government can do it, and any expenditure of money can do it, and then the language will take care of itself. The language itself is worth preserving in the Gaeltacht. You have people there, children who are listening to the tales of Ossian and Finn McCool, tales handed down from generation to generation. Anybody who takes an interest in the Irish language, in Irish music and hears the airs and gems that were brought from Donegal by men like Hardibeck, songs such as "Mo Shean Dun Na nGall" and "Bean an Fhir Ruaidh," can appreciate the ancient culture of this country. That will explain to a certain extent why in the Gaeltacht a strong united effort is necessary. The problem must not be dealt with in a niggardly or cheeseparing way. No twopence halfpenny scheme for the Gaeltacht will suffice to meet the case. An expenditure of money is necessary and a strong united effort by everyone in this House is absolutely essential if those people are going to be kept in existence. Deputy McFadden can bear me out in what I am going to say now. Every Saturday from the city of Derry hundreds of emigrants are leaving the country. This is not sob stuff; it is absolutely honest and genuine. They must be physically and mentally sound and nobody is being left in Donegal except the halt, the blind, the deaf and the insane. I am not suggesting they are all like that. I would suggest, therefore, to Deputies that if this process of elimination goes on we will have nothing left at the end but the crocks and the weeds. As I said before, it is not sob stuff. There is a Donegal Deputy here who will bear me out. There are hundreds going every week and if we do not stop it we might as well make up our minds here to wipe out the Gaeltacht and all that it stands for.

Everybody starts a debate like this by suggesting that we should treat it on non-party lines. I think we should, but I wonder do we. I wonder will we? I think Deputies ought to visualise this question in a more concrete way. What is the problem? It is a problem of how a man can support his wife and family of seven or eight on a 30s. valuation holding. If we think of the problem in that way and envisage it in that way, our discussions will bear a good deal more fruit. Do not complicate the problem by saying what you could do about fisheries. I think it is admitted on all sides that anything we do for fisheries only affects small portions of the congested districts. The big proportion of the people are farmers in a small way, and must remain so. When speaking of fisheries, I take it that it would be agreed by most people that if ever there is to be a big development in regard to fisheries, it must take place not only in regard to the seaboard of Galway, Mayo and Kerry, but in regard to every portion of our seaboard. Irish fishermen will be drawn from all parts of the country, and if you have a fishing fleet, as they have in Norway and other countries, and if you have a big development in the industry it will not be confined to the congested districts or to one portion of the seaboard. That brings you back to the fact that the problem you are discussing is simply stated. It is this. How is a man to be helped to support his wife and family on a 30s. valuation holding? If you think of it in that way, I think that suggestions made for a solution of the problem would be somewhat nearer the point. What are the solutions suggested by Deputies on the opposite benches, and in other parts of the House? Think of the problem in reference to that one man. A road leading up to his house has to be made. The side of the road is to be planted. His house has to be slated. He is to have the advantage of a veterinary dispensary fairly near him. I do not want to make a joke of this. He has to get a certain amount of technical education. There is to be a teacher available to teach his son a certain amount of agriculture, and his daughter a certain amount of domestic economy, and both are to be taught a certain amount of culture. These are the palliatives that are suggested. These are what have been suggested from the benches opposite.

That is what has been suggested from almost every quarter of the House, To solve that, the main problem——

And it has been suggested by the Gaeltacht Commission and in every one of the principal recommendations made by them, if I may say so.

Mr. HOGAN

Let me deal in the abstract with the case, without reference to any documents of any kind. I think that the suggestion has been made that this problem, which is undoubtedly a really serious problem, should be dealt with, apart altogether from political considerations, on its merits. That is the way I would like to deal with it.

Hear, hear.

Mr. HOGAN

I say that is the problem stated simply of the man with his wife and family, and from all parts of the House the suggestions that have come to help him are—that his house is to be slated and cleaned up a bit, a road up to his house to be made, the main road near him is to be improved to supply wages for his sons, he is to have the benefits of a veterinary dispensary, and he is to have a certain amount of technical, general and historical education for his sons and daughters. These are the suggestions and the only suggestions that have been made.

We do not accept that. Certainly no one accepts the Minister's list that he has now read out as including all the suggestions that came from these benches.

Mr. HOGAN

There is one other aspect that I do want to deal with later on. I call all these palliatives. There is a suggestion made by Deputy Fahy and developed by other Deputies that there should be industries established at the moment in the neighbourhood.

That is one of them.

Mr. HOGAN

That is a very big one. That is an entirely different matter, however. There are entirely different considerations underlying that. That, if you like, is an attempt to deal with it as a commercial proposition. I do not think that is an attempt that can possibly succeed. But it is an attempt to find a solution or to attempt to find a solution of the problem, an attempt to solve the problem at some date in the future. I do not agree that it is an attempt that can possibly succeed, but it is an attempt to find a solution for the problem at some date in the future. Well, the solution of the problem at some date in the future is the suggestion. Leave out that side of it. Leave out the suggestion about lace, woollens, silks, foundries, gates, shovels, hardware, and the rest of it. What really are the solutions suggested for the case of this man with a 30/- holding and with a wife and family? There cannot be any other suggestion, and I think the list is almost exhausted. I listened to suggestions about education—technical and general education —about afforestation, a certain amount of road work, to proposals for the setting up of veterinary dispensaries and for housing——

And for land reclamation.

Mr. HOGAN

These were the palliatives suggested. Having done all that, how much better is the man going to be at the end of ten years' time?

Is the Minister attacking anything I said?

Mr. HOGAN

I am not.

Or is the Minister attacking anything in the Gaeltacht Commission's Report or in the White Paper or anything in the statement made by the Minister for Finance?

Mr. HOGAN

I do not intend to attack anybody. Everybody appeals to treat this case on its merits and not to make political capital out of it. I am not attacking Deputy Fahy's speech. He made quite an honest speech; if he wants any compliment from me let me state that straight away. He did make an honest speech.

I have not the slightest objection, but I wanted to know what exactly was being discussed.

Would it not be better to let the Minister continue speaking without interruptions?

Mr. HOGAN

I thought I made it fairly clear, but I may be wrong, of course, But it is at least arguable that the problem of the Gaeltacht is the problem simply stated of the man with a wife and family on a 30/- valuation. I say that is the problem. For the purpose of simplifying it, leave out the fisheries. The fisheries only affect a very small proportion of the Gaeltacht, and in fact, if developed, the fisheries will affect a very big proportion of the rest of the country. The main problem is the problem I have stated. I have listened to this debate from all sides. A number of palliatives were suggested and I draw a distinction between palliatives and proposals which are intended to solve the problem, even after the lapse of a fairly long interval—such proposals as industries to be established there. I will deal with that aspect of the matter again. The palliatives as far as I could note them were:—Afforestation, and that was developed by a number of people as a means of finding employment, that is ready employment for a man's sons; work on the roads, also for finding employment; housing, so as to give the man a better house with two or three rooms instead of the one room with the cows living in it; then another suggestion was to slate his house; the setting up of a veterinary dispensary to look after a couple of Galloway cattle, and perhaps a sow, and so on, on a 30/- valuation; and, if you like, migration to other parts of the country. These were the solutions suggested. I would rather not deal now with migration, because I regard that as something more than a palliative. I regard that as a proposal which, if carried out, would really help to solve the problem. But I would leave that, and the proposal to establish industries, aside now. The other suggestions are palliatives. I put it to the Dáil that that is a correct statement. How much better is this man of the 30/- valuation going to be in ten years after these palliatives? To slate his house for that man is really something for his wife and family. Making a road is also something for them. Planting the side of the road is something that will give employment at the moment, but is it going to solve the problem? How much nearer after you have done these things are you to the solution of the problem? I cannot see it, and when you realise that in the light that these palliatives are not going to solve the problem, you should certainly be careful as to how much they are to cost. If all these suggestions are not going to solve the problem, then surely you are not justified in asking for vast sums of money to be spent on services which leave the problem there again for solution in a very short time.

Now let me come to the other suggestions. Before I do so, I believe that so far as possible, so far as the land is available, forestry should be undertaken by the State. I believe that so far as possible an effort should be made to improve the houses of these people. You must spend money on the roads in order to give employment. Though the evidence I have for my faith in that matter is extreme. I must say that a certain number of veterinary dispensaries would be of some use and value, and would, to some extent, be appreciated by the people. My evidence for that is very slight, because they were there and were not availed of. Anyone who understands the position in which these people live, and who knows the amount of stock they have, will understand that matter. Remember that some of these things are being done already, and that very big sums of money up to £200,000 and £300,000 a year are being spent on them, and that this money is not touching the problem, not even the fringe of the problem is it touching. That is what I want the House to realise. Deputies may criticise the Government. They can say that the Government should spend, not £200,000, but £400,000 or £600,000 a year on these services. I am content that the Government should lie under that criticism provided Deputies realise that it is not touching the fringe of the problem. Three or four times that amount of money would not touch the fringe of the problem.

When we are discussing this question and looking for a permanent solution, three-fourths of the time in the debate should not be taken up with a description of the plight of the people in the Gaeltacht, with the plight of the people in the congested districts. We all know it. All parties here know it. It is a waste of time. You are pushing an open door, preaching to the converted, when you are describing the conditions there. We all know these conditions. Time should not be wasted in describing them. Considerable time should not be wasted in discussing these palliatives. They lead nowhere. The cost, compared with the amount of good they do or can do towards the solution of the real problem of the congested districts, is almost nil. They cost immense sums of money which possibly might be better spent on constructive schemes. You will not get constructive schemes unless people begin to think seriously about them; unless the people begin to give up that habit of finding some way of excusing themselves for not dealing with the real problem by suggesting these palliatives. Unless the people face up to the real problem there cannot be any solution for the real problem. It is a problem that cannot be solved unless we face up to it, and we cannot have a solution, and can never arrive at a solution, without facing up to the problem.

Coming now to the other things suggested, I will deal with one suggestion, good in the sense that it is arguable, and that is migrating the people of the Gaeltacht. In that connection there was a certain amount of criticism of certain schemes in Connemara. They were small. It was pointed out that the land was only one shilling an acre. There is no better land there. That is all that is to be said—that is simply the answer to that criticism.

Excuse me, I think it is only 5d. an acre.

Mr. HOGAN

All right, 5d. an acre. I know the value well, and so does the Deputy, I am sure. A holding of £3 valuation in the Maam Valley is a very big improvement to a man who had a holding with a 5/- valuation elsewhere. The point of view that in a big, difficult, complex problem like this you are to despise an improvement represented in the difference betwen a 3/- valuation, or a 10/- valuation holding and a holding with a £3 valuation—that point of view is entirely unsound when you are dealing with such a problem. It would be a great day for this country if you could put every tenant in Connemara in the position of having a fairly decent holding of £4 or £5 valuation in the Maam Valley. He would be at least ten times as well off as he is in Carraroe. When I find Deputies from that area despising that much of a change and expecting something very much bigger—having such extraordinary ideas about this problem and apparently about the ease with which it can be solved that they think the State is wasting its time in improving the conditions of a man to the extent that I have mentioned—then in my opinion there is no proper appreciation of the problem.

Will the Minister who specialises in economic propositions now show us how that is an economic proposition?

Mr. HOGAN

We are supposed to deal with this matter on non-political lines and give up logic-chopping for the moment. I said simply what everyone from Galway, or any of these counties in the Gaeltacht where there are small tenants, knows. In districts like that you do improve a man's conditions immensely by increasing his valuation from 10/- to £3. The Deputy simply tries to make a debating point. Moreover. I will say for the Deputy's information that a £3 holding in a place like that is worth considerably more than an £8 or £10 valuation holding in an entirely different district, say in a district like Kilkenny. If the Deputy has any doubt about that I will tell him that on a £12, a £15 and a £25 valuation holding in Connemara there was money made out of sheep going into four figures per annum. The Deputy should know the conditions before he speaks. You do it economically and you do it in a sound way for the very limited number of tenants that you are dealing with, when you bring a man from a £1 to a £3 or a £5 valuation holding. You talk of migration on a big scale. Deputy Fahy said: "Why not take them out in hundreds?" I was thinking over it and I believe there are something like 20,000 families in the Gaeltacht.

I said that you should make one such experiment.

Mr. HOGAN

One such experiment will not solve the problem, the Deputy will agree.

I quite agree, but I do not want to be misrepresented.

Mr. HOGAN

Before you enter into an experiment you must find where it leads you to. There is no use in making an experiment which you cannot follow up if the experiment happens to be a success. There are some 20,000 families in the Gaeltacht, to put it on a moderate estimate. You have that number in the congested districts living under the conditions described here. Deputies will agree that it is a moderate figure so far as numbers are concerned. You can deal with the 20,000 families in the sense that you can get land for them; but that does not solve all your problem. After putting them on the land you may be creating much bigger problems. You can deal with the 20,000 by getting land for them on one basis only, and that is that every holding in this country must be reduced to about a £40 valuation. You can deal with them on the tenanted land of the country. I do not say now whether it is right or wrong; I am merely making the point. You must make up your minds to reduce every holding in Ireland to a £40 valuation, and take the land that is over to deal with anything like half of the problem. If you do that it will cost you at least for each tenant migrated, say, to Dublin or Meath, about £700 between the cost of the house and the land. You have to take into consideration the reduced price at which you must sell him the land and the loss on resale.

First of all, you will be buying to a great extent tenanted land. You must buy it at a price fairly like the market price; otherwise it will have an extraordinary effect on the economic conditions all over the country. If you were buying at very much lower than the market price it would have extraordinary economic reactions. You will be buying purchased land, and you must give the man who occupies it something for his interest. You must add that to what is already advanced, and in that case we will be buying at a higher price than what we are paying now. There must be a loss on resale, and between that and the house and the cost of transferring, I do not believe it would be possible to transfer any one family at less than £700. That would mean a total expenditure of £14,000,000 or £15,000,000, and you then have to consider how much further you are in regard to the problem. That is the position if you are to deal with the whole 20,000 families. If you are dealing with half that number it will be £7,000,000 or £8,000,000. That is apart altogether from the price paid for the land in interest and sinking fund, and the problem is not even then solved.

That is a logical suggestion and I do admire the men who got up and made it and backed it and stood for it. It could be carried out; it could be done. It probably would cost less, as much as it costs, than most of the suggestions about establishing industries all over the Gaeltacht and feeding them with public money every year. It certainly would not cost more. If you believe in that, say it; otherwise you are deceiving the Gaeltacht when you talk about land purchase as a complete solution. You can do a certain amount of land purchase, and it is being done, but any complete solution does not lie along that line. I have admitted that this is a logical solution. It involves two things, a huge expenditure by the State and the reduction of every holding in Ireland to £40 or £50 valuation. It also involves the risk you are taking when you transfer men from certain conditions and put them in conditions to which they have been utterly unsuited. Undoubtedly it does involve a tremendous amount of extra instruction and inspection and care and attention from some source if they are to have any chance of succeeding. If you believe in that solution, advocate it, but do not advocate it with your tongue in your cheek. Take all the consequences.

I would like to know who is meant in this connection, because we are told that this is an impersonal debate.

Mr. HOGAN

I am speaking to the Dáil generally.

It is the general "you" that we hear very often in the Dáil.

Mr. HOGAN

I am trying to deal with this question on its merits. We will now come to industries. Does Deputy Fahy—I am applying it to him now—believe that to solve the problem of the man with a holding of a 30/- valuation and with five or six or seven or eight or nine neighbours in the same condition, woollen factories should be established and foundries should be established? I think the Deputy also said silk factories. Does he suggest that that is a practical solution?

We always talk of the Gaeltacht as if none of us came from it. Supposing, for the sake of argument, that around Athenry, Loughrea, or Ballinasloe there were a couple of hundred families, not of 30/-, but of £6 or £7 valuation, and it was suggested that that was the solution of their problem, what would they say or think? What would they do? To say that you can establish woollen factories or foundries or silk factories which will be so big or comprehensive as to deal with any big proportion of the labour available in the congested districts, and do so under such conditions that they can never become economic, is to my mind extraordinary. How can you do it? Deputy Fahy said he would admit that they will not compete against the Bradford factories; built at ports, with coal at £1 per ton or something extremely low; with cheap power, suitable railways, and, above all, generations and generations of skill.

Did you ever hear of Foxford?

Mr. HOGAN

I did, but I am at a different problem. It will be admitted that they could not in the ordinary way compete with such factories, but Deputy Fahy has a solution. Let us see to where it leads. A tariff—get them the home market! Remember that Connemara is to be turned into something like a small Bradford—that is what it comes to—if it is to touch the fringe of the problem. Woollens are to be produced away from coalmines, from sources of power, from railways, as compared with a factory even in Cork or other parts of the country; in districts where there is not much technical skill as compared with, say, Dublin, Cork or Limerick. I am not insulting the ordinary small farmer in Connemara by saying that. You are to establish factories there and to get them the home market. Surely the Deputy realises that what he is advocating is to make a ring around the Gaeltacht, because he wants to protect them not only from Bradford, but from Cork also. You will have to protect them from any mills which are built in a big way, with the latest machinery, turning out mass-production goods near a port, with private enterprise behind them. Remember that these mills are to be run by the State. Even at the risk of giving somebody something to say about State departments, I say that a State department cannot run industries. No matter how good the inspectors are, you cannot run mills by an inspection system. They will not be as efficient or give the value that mills run by private capital will give. You will have to protect these foundries, mills, and other industries against those in other parts of the country as well—that is certain. So that you have to couple with your proposals, not only a tariff against all goods coming in from England, Scotland, Wales, the Continent; and America, but also to take power to prohibit the establishment of mills proposed to be set up, not from any consideration of giving employment at a certain place, but on the other considerations which any enterprising business man takes into account when he is establishing an industry—the railway facilities, the closeness of raw material, the portal facilities—a hundred and one considerations of that kind. It is a small thing makes a difference in business, and if there was nothing else in it but that one is run by private enterprise and the other by systems of inspection and so on, private enterprise would win.

Are not these all the suggestions— every one of them from start to finish? And these suggestions are always prefaced by this: that we must tackle this problem in a big way; that there must be no cheeseparing, that we must not be niggardly. That is being constantly repeated by Deputies from all parts of the House. It must be tackled in a big way, we must have a big scheme, and when the schemes are examined that is what they mean. To what does it all come? It is undoubtedly true that the industries could not be kept going without a tariff, competing against Bradford, against mills turning out goods with the latest machinery, by mass production, with the highest technical skill, and all the considerations that will be taken into account by a private capitalist, who puts his mill in a place where it would make most money. First of all the money has to come from the State. Who is to pay all that money? After the capital expenses have come from the State, industries must be kept going by annual grants. Who is to pay that money? The money will be paid for the benefit of the small holder of £1 or 30s. valuation, but who really is to pay it? Men of from £15 to £30 valuation, in the main. When Deputies talk about big schemes, talk in millions and millions, when they are anxious for big sums of money to be made available for the relief of people whose conditions they sympathise with, they ought to remember also that the people who will be paying it are the struggling farmers of between £15 and £30 valuation, and the other few producers in the country, whoever they are.

Who are paying the big salaries?

Mr. HOGAN

We are discussing this on non-political lines. Of course, some people cannot do that, and the more they say they want to do it, the less they mean it. Again, I ask you to think of it in that way, to think of what all this migration is to cost, of what all those industries are to cost; this constant inspection, this technical education; and then to remember, at least, that you are not going to pay all that out of the Governor-General's salary or the £100,000 that is to be saved by cutting every civil servant down to £700.

What does emigration cost?

Mr. HOGAN

I know that. I hold that we cannot get down to this problem until we diagnose it properly.

There seems to be a difference of opinion between the President and the Minister. In the debate on unemployment, the President stated that the small farmer paid no taxes. According to the Minister now, he is going to pay a whole lot.

Mr. HOGAN

My point is quite simple—that all wealth comes out of production. The President made an entirely different statement. He was talking of direct taxation.

He was talking about where salaries came from.

Mr. HOGAN

The interjection of the Deputy reminded me of that. When you think, as I say, of all these problems, and all these possible solutions, surely it becomes a joke and an insult to the poverty and the real hardship that do exist in the Gaeltacht to be deceiving these unfortunate people by talking as if all their ills can be remedied by dealing with the Governor-General and cutting down all civil servants and Ministers to £700 per year. It cannot be done.

Nobody ever said all, but some of them.

Does the Minister agree with the statement of the President, that the small farmer does not pay taxes? It is a very important point.

The Minister for Agriculture appears to me to be extraordinarily relevant, not for him, but from the point of view of the character of the debate. If any Deputy feels that he can put the Minister for Agriculture in a hole by interjecting across the House, he ought to give up that idea and let the Minister continue his speech. It cannot be done.

Mr. HOGAN

I want to diagnose the situation. I shall allow every Deputy on the opposite benches or on the Labour Benches to get up and say, "You have not given a single solution," but I ask those Deputies if they are serious about this problem—and there is a great deal of seriousness about the problem of the very small farmers—will they admit that you never will solve the problem if you do not try to diagnose it? I am attempting to do that. You are not going to solve it by the palliatives or the remedies suggested. In that connection I only want to say one thing more. It occurred to me as an extraordinary thing that while all sorts of palliatives were suggested, certain obvious remedies were not suggested at all. And, further, it occurred to me as extraordinary that Deputies should get up and say, as if it was a criticism, "The Government is doing this already." All this is indicative of the point of view that there ought to be found by someone a short cut to the solution of this problem. It is indicative of the impatience of what is done already, and this refusal to face up to the hard facts of the problem and to attempt to solve those actual aspects of the problem that present themselves to you.

Deputy Fahy started by quoting Doctor Douglas Hyde, who said that the traditional industries of the Gaeltacht must be re-established. What are the traditional industries of the Gaeltacht—sheep, pigs, fowl? There were rural industries, there are very few cattle, sheep, pigs, or fowl in the congested districts, especially in the worst of them, if you like to say that, though it would not be quite correct. It would be quite correct to say that of the poorer districts in the Gaeltacht. In any event, at any time, the wealth in rural industries would be as nothing compared with the wealth in their cattle, sheep, pigs, poultry and so on. Would Deputies investigate the problem on these lines and consider whether anything more can be done in this direction? These are the industries which are traditional in the Gaeltacht and are understood by the sons and the daughters of the farmers and that they are capable of making a success of. If you are serious you will have to pursue the problem very much more on these lines than on the lines followed by Deputy Fahy when he talked of woollens, lace and silks.

A lot has been done on these lines. I am telling you that preparatory to admitting that it does not mean a big difference to the problem. A tremendous amount has been done. The value of the livestock has increased immensely. Their cattle are Galloways; they are practically all pedigree cattle, and very valuable ones of their kind. The sort of Galloway you see grazing on the side of the road in Connemara is not so valuable as the shorthorn in Limerick, but for their class they are almost perfect. That type is a very valuable Galloway. He is as good as pedigree cattle you will see in other countries. You will see pedigree pigs in Carraroe because there has been a tremendous number of pedigree pigs put in there for the last twenty years. They are some of the best large white Yorks. Amongst the fowl, you will see white Wyandottes, Leghorns, Minorcas, and crosses of those breeds. Their live stock has been bred in such a way that, of its kind, it is the best live stock in Ireland. Their sheep and mountain ewes are the best class. The best meat farmers who want mountain ewes will go to Connemara to buy, and there they will get the best of their kind because the very best Scotch mountain rams are put out there. It is not generally appreciated that the livestock, such as their land is able to carry, is, of its kind, extremely good. Yet this has not solved the problem. However, it has made a difference. I should say that the hogget has increased from 11/- to 22/- in price. That is a very big increase. It is a natural increase and net profit. There is no cost of production in connection with it. The weedy little animals that were there before have all gone. The hogget that was formerly worth only 11/- is now worth 22/-. That has not solved the problem, but it has gone a certain way. It has done more than people think. Perhaps more money spent in this direction would be valuable. Certainly it would be far more valuable than four, five or six times the amount of money spent upon some of the wild-cat schemes suggested.

As the Minister for Finance has said, I cannot see the total solution of this problem. You can only solve it in detail by tackling it from one hundred and one different angles, but you will not solve it unless you come down to hard tacks, and be content with very small improvement year by year. You will not solve it if you deceive the people in these districts; if you try to teach the lesson, too often sought to be taught, that the State has a very definite duty to them. It is rather hard to put that point of view. The State has a definite duty, and the State, which is the taxpayer, has been doing its duty to a great extent in a poor country by them. But if the point of view is constantly kept up, not only that the State has a definite duty to them, but that it has to put those people in a better condition than the hard-working small farmers in other parts of the country—the point of view that sneers at improvements in the ordinary humdrum circumstances of their lives such as cattle, sheep, pigs and so on—if that is your point of view, you will only demoralise the Gaeltacht.

Nobody suggested that the people of the Gaeltacht are demoralised. Someone suggested as a general criticism that they are lazy, and so on. No doubt there are special characteristics developed by reason of the fact that there is so much State money coming in that leads to special characteristics, and these can be developed easily until they have a serious reaction on the character of the people, and that is to be avoided. You are not going to make an Irish-Ireland out of people that have been in any way weakened or dissipated by developing that point of view too far. So far as the Irish language movement or an Irish-Ireland is concerned, all I have to say is this: It is not going to be saved by the Gaeltacht alone. It is to be saved by every district in the country, and Irish-Ireland will not survive unless it is once for all removed from the position into which it is driven by this attempt to subordinate or, if you like, to prostitute it for political ends.

On a point of order, may I ask if it is intended to carry this debate on beyond to-night?

I take it that Deputy Fahy should have an opportunity to reply. That would lead us to the conclusion that the debate cannot be finished to-night. If it is adjourned now, of course, it will be adjourned until Private Members' time on Friday, and there is another matter on the Order Paper that would take precedence of it.

The Minister will have an opportunity of speaking on the question.

While I did not hear Deputy Fahy's speech on this matter, because of my absence in the Seanad, I understand that in moving his motion he suggested that the onus of putting up a definite scheme does not lie on the Opposition.

Is the Minister going to speak to the motion? I thought he was going to make a suggestion.

I did not want to intervene. Personally, I do not feel that the passing or rejection of that resolution is going to make any addition to the problem that we are discussing.

We have heard Ministers say on several occasions here that they were facing up to this situation. I think the Minister for Lands and Agriculture has given us as good an impersonation of an electric hare in this thing as he has ever done. I disagree with most of the economic solutions that are given in this White Paper. There are only a few points that I want to speak about. In the first place, I would suggest that summer courses for Irish should be held exclusively in the Gaeltacht. I do not see what benefit can accrue to the teachers by having these Irish courses held in Skerries, Mullingar and such places. If you want to learn French, you do not go to Glasgow. If the Irish courses are to benefit the teachers and students of the language, I think it should be made the rule that the Irish classes should be confined, especially in senior cases, to the Gaeltacht.

There was a question about the housing grants. The housing grants at present are not availed of in Connemara or any other part of the Gaeltacht, for the reason that the specifications necessary are too expensive. I would suggest that we should revert to the old Congested Districts Board plan of allowing grants for re-roofing, for additional rooms, and so on. These grants would be of great use in the Gaeltacht for repairing houses for the summer season for teachers and others who would come to learn Irish.

There is another question—that is as regards Irish libraries. I think that each school could very well be supplied with a library.

The question of school meals is another matter that I would like to bring to the notice of the Minister for Education. It is absolutely impossible to enforce the Compulsory Education Act until meals are given in the schools in the Gaeltacht. It is cruel and criminal. I know from my own experience as a dispensary doctor in the Gaeltacht that there is a large number of prosecutions for non-attendance at school, where children could not attend because they were either ill-clad or ill-fed, where children probably could not get a breakfast. Until school meals are supplied I think the Compulsory Attendance Act should not be enforced. It was suggested in the original Report that an attempt should be made to Gaelicise Galway. In that connection I would suggest that the deputation that recently went to the Minister for Education put a very good case before him regarding the establishing of a training college for teachers in the Gaeltacht in Galway. The benefits of a training college there are obvious. They are near a university and they would have the benefit of a university staff. I do not think that any of the present training colleges can be sufficiently Irishised to admit Irish pupils from the Gaeltacht who have gone through the course in the preparatory schools. There is one thing mentioned by the Minister for Education that I do object to and that is the offer of clothing to pupils attending these preparatory schools. It is very objectionable. If that were done a good number of people would not go to these preparatory schools, because it gives the scheme a taint of charity and pauperism.

To come back to the economic side of this question, none of the economic suggestions or recommendations that are contained in the Gaeltacht Commission Report that are of any use is to be acted upon in the White Paper. There are 80,350 Irish speakers in Galway and the only solution that has been put up is either to leave them there or let them emigrate to America. They have been offered Civic Guard jobs or jobs in a brigade of the Army, a few are to be teachers, the rest must emigrate or remain in their present uneconomic position. When the President originated the Gaeltacht Commission he stated: "Our language has been waylaid and left for dead on the roadside." That is going to be the attitude towards these people. They are to be left in their present uneconomic position. Then I think the sooner we light the candles and hold the wake on the Irish language the better. This is a national problem. We all say that. The Minister for Local Government said it, but we proceed to deal with this problem by appointing a Minister and a Ministry to deal with it before we discuss it. When the Ministers and Secretaries Bill was being debated I suggested that the transfer be not made until this debate had been carried out, and the Minister for Local Government simply said that I was drawing a red herring across the trail. At that time I was not allowed to discuss the Minister or the Ministry of Fisheries. I presume I will be allowed to discuss them now.

Not the Minister.

I move the adjournment of the debate.

There is a point that I would like to have made clear. I undertook to give a day for this debate, but Deputies will have had more than a day, and it is in Government time. I would like to know if we are going to have any accommodation in regard to concluding the debate, and also as regards the Estimate for the Department of Fisheries. A good deal of the Fisheries Estimate has been considered in relation to this. I would like to know how much more time is to be occupied in this debate, or whether this discussion is to limit discussion on the Fisheries Estimate.

I think in this matter Deputies on the other side have taken as much time as we have. We would not be able to give any indication as to the time that would be required. As far as we are concerned, a couple of hours more would probably do, but if other Deputies speak, of course, it must be taken into account.

I do not propose to enter into a discussion as to the relative merits of the various parties in the House taking part in this discussion, but we must make up a time-table, and I am not going to give more time to one side of the House than the other. You must remember that a majority has some rights.

Put us down for two hours.

I will give two hours entirely, or else put it back to private members' time.

The suggestion is to adjourn the debate until Friday.

I propose to give two hours to-morrow, and if there was a little time left over from the discussion of the financial resolutions. I might be prepared to give a little more time.

The situation then is that the debate will be adjourned until such time as it will arise in private members' time, but on to-morrow there may be some time given to this question.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m.

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