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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 20 Jun 1928

Vol. 24 No. 7

PRIVATE BUSINESS. - CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT No. 10) BILL, 1928—SECOND STAGE (RESUMED).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."
Debate resumed on the following amendment:—
To delete all the words after the word "That" and substitute the following:—
"the Bill be not further considered as it is the opinion of the Dáil that Articles 47 and 48 should be retained until the people by direct vote have expressed their will on the question of deletion."—(Deputy de Valera.)
Ordered accordingly.

When the debate was about to be adjourned on the last day, Deputy Thrift contradicted a statement which I made. I replied that we would go back to the point to-day. The statement I made was in reference to the fact that it was ultra vires for the Executive Council to bring in this Constitution Amendment Bill, seeing that a petition had been signed by more than 75,000 voters on the register asking the Oireachtas to set up machinery whereby the people could initiate legislation. The statement I made was this: "There is at present on the minutes of the Dáil a resolution passed by this House to the effect that that petition should not be considered until a Select Committee considers the whole question of the machinery whereby the petition could be accepted by the Oireachtas."

On the 23rd May last we discussed a motion which was in the name of Deputy Thrift. The motion reads:

"That the question of granting leave for the presentation of a petition, purporting to be prepared in accordance with Article 48 of the Constitution, be not further considered until the Oireachtas has prescribed the procedure to be adopted for the presentation of the petitions contemplated in Article 48 of the Constitution."

On the same day's Order Paper there was another motion in the name of Deputy Thrift which was not reached. This other motion reads:

"That it is expedient that a Joint Committee consisting of six members of the Dáil and six members of the Seanad be set up to consider and report as to the procedure to be adopted in the presentation of petitions purporting to have been prepared in accordance with Article 48 of the Constitution."

I do not know why on earth Deputy Thrift is running away from these two motions. Surely he is not ashamed that these motions were down in his name, and that one of them was discussed and passed, and that the other is still on the Order Paper in his name to be discussed and, I suppose we may take it, passed at some future date? If it is not going to be passed at some future date, why was it put on the Order Paper? If Deputy Thrift did not intend it to be discussed and passed at some future date, why did he put the motion on the Order Paper? Perhaps the quotation which I am about to read may throw some light on the subject. The quotation reads:—

When he was caught napping President Cosgrave simply refused to accept Mr. de Valera's petition—refused, in other words, to be bound by an existing Article of the Free State Constitution. If the Dáil had ratified the refusal, it would have created a most dangerous precedent; but the alternative seemed to be its connivance at an attack on a fundamental provision of the Anglo-Irish Treaty. From this apparent dilemma the Government was rescued by Professor Thrift's proposal, that the course of Mr. de Valera's petition should be stayed until Parliament should have prescribed a procedure for petitions under Article 48. The Dáil adopted Mr. Thrift's amendment yesterday by a substantial majority. We may suppose that the Government will not be caught napping twice, and that, before the procedure for petitions under Article 48 can be formulated, the Article itself will have been consigned to unhonoured oblivion.

That quotation is taken from a leading article in the "Irish Times" on the 2nd June last. That was the day that Deputy Thrift's motion was passed in the Dáil. When Deputy Thrift was proposing his motion, that the question of granting leave for the presentation of a petition purporting to be prepared in accordance with Article 48 of the Constitution be not further considered until the Oireachtas had prescribed the procedure to be adopted for the presentation of the petitions contemplated in Article 48 of the Constitution, it appeared, I think, to the majority of members that Deputy Thrift was appealing to us not to consider Deputy de Valera's motion further until the Dáil would go into the question of the procedure to accept such petitions. He did not say to the Fianna Fáil Party here: "You caught the President napping once; I do not want you to catch him napping again, so I am introducing this motion." He did not say: "I want you to turn down Deputy de Valera's motion now, so as to give the Government an opportunity of getting rid of Article 48 of the Constitution and consigning it to unhonoured oblivion before any further steps can be taken in the matter."

What he did say was this:

"The first thing to do is for the Oireachtas to determine how that petition is to be presented, to lay down what is the constitutional and proper way to do it, and, accordingly, I have put down as a substantive motion that the House should proceed to get advice from a Joint Committee of the Dáil and the Seanad as to what that Committee thinks is the right method to adopt for the proper presentation of such a petition. That is my case for the amendment."—(Parliamentary Debates, May 23rd, column 1907).

Deputy Thrift also made this appeal on the same basis (column 1905):—

"Are there not enough things calling for us all to join together? Are there not hundreds of problems waiting for us to attack and work at? Are there not unemployed calling for us to do something to give them employment? Are there not thousands living in dwellings who appeal to us to put our brains to work to see how we can make things better for them instead of wasting time?"

When I heard that I pictured Deputy Thrift going off to build houses and tackle all the other problems that confront the nation. I thought that was what he had in mind, but the next day it would appear from the "Irish Times" that what he had in mind was to get the Dáil to pass his particular motion so that the President might not be caught napping, not that houses might be built or that the other problems confronting the Irish people might be faced, but that the President might not be caught napping twice, that "Before the procedure for petitions under Article 48 can be formulated the Article itself will have been consigned to unhonoured oblivion." That is the real purpose of Deputy Thrift's amendment to Deputy de Valera's motion. That was, I suppose, the real purpose of all the flapdoodle and the appeal he made here in this House. If it is not, I would like him to tell the House what his purpose really was. We maintain that it is absolutely ultra vires for the Government to introduce the Constitution (Amendment No. 10) Bill at the present time, because there is in existence a petition signed according to the conditions laid down in Article 48 of the Constitution requesting the Oireachtas to put Article 48 into effective operation. The Article calls for 75,000 people to sign the petition. Actually 96,000 have signed it, and not more than 15,000 reside in any one constituency. When Article 48 was being passed through this Dáil five or six years ago, we were told in regard to that Article and in regard to Article 47, which is the Referendum:

"It is, we consider, particularly suited to this country in the circumstances of the time. It will impress on the people more forcibly perhaps than would otherwise be the case that henceforth the law of this country is their law, is the creature of their will and is something which they can make, alter or repeal as it seems best to them."

That is a quotation from the late Mr. Kevin O'Higgins, who was the Government's sponsor for this particular Article in the Dáil. Then they told the people that this particular Article was brought in for the purpose of making the law of this country the creature of the people's will, of making it something which they can make, alter or repeal as it seems best to them. If that is the purpose of the Article why is it being now abolished? Is it being now abolished in order to secure that the law of this country will not be the creature of the people's will, that the law of this country is something which the people cannot make, alter or repeal as it seems best to them? We would like the Government to answer that. If the purpose of abolishing this Article now is to secure that the law of the country is not to be the creature of the will of the people of this country, is not to be something which they can make, alter or repeal as it seems best to them we want to know why is it that Article 48 was ever put into the Constitution. Now the date on which Articles 47 and 48 were introduced and passed here in this Dáil is significant. It was the 5th October, 1922. That was the date on which the people were told that henceforth the law of this country is to be their law; is to be the creature of their will; is to be something which they can make, alter or repeal as it seems best to them. And because the law was to be the people's law many things were done in this country. The people were asked to support the Government in carrying out certain deeds here because the law was to be their law and because matters were to be so arranged that the people could make, alter or repeal the laws as they thought fit. The 5th October, 1922, is a date previous to any official executions that took place here. The executions were carried out on this plea — this is another quotation —"We are going to see that the rule of democracy will be maintained, no matter what the cost and no matter who is the intellectual that may fall by reason of the assertion of that right." That is another quotation from President Cosgrave. The date on which he used those words was the 28th November, 1922, in the debate on the execution of the late Mr. Erskine Childers. This is another quotation from the same debate: "They (the people) have the right to decide their own affairs. They have the right to have their majority will decide their own affairs, and no man, Irish or English, has the right to say them nay." This is another quotation from the debate on the executions of the 8th December, 1922. It is from Mr. Kevin O'Higgins: "We want to place the power of Government in this country in the hands of the Irish people so that they may rule according to their will." In another portion of the same debate he said: "We have no higher aim than to place the people of Ireland in the saddle in Ireland and let them do their will, but we will not acquiesce in gun-bullying, and we will take very drastic measures to stop it."

As I said, all the executions that took place here in this country were justi— fied by the existence in the Constitution of the democratic Articles of the Constitution. Two of these were Articles 46 and 47; they are now called Articles 47 and 48. We mean to do all in our power to block the erasion from the Constitution of the democratic Articles of the Constitution, the articles which were quoted in justification of the executions of Erskine Childers and Liam Mellowes. In the debate on Article 48, which makes provision for the Initiative, it was said by one of the Free State Cabinet: "It (the Initiative) keeps contact between the people and their laws and keeps responsibility and consciousness in the minds of the people that they are the real and ultimate rulers of the country." That was all very good then. If the Initiative keeps contact between the people and their laws, and keeps responsibility and consciousness in the minds of the people that they are the real and ultimate rulers in this country, why is that Article now being erased from the Constitution. This is another quotation: "The text of the Article, as it stands, is permissive, it is not mandatory. It is permissive of Parliament to institute the Initiative, but it is mandatory if Parliament having failed to introduce it is requested by petition within two years." That is a quotation from the late Mr. Kevin O'Higgins when he was introducing the Initiative. The people were told then what Article 48 meant. These are the words of Mr. Blythe: "It (the Article of Initiative) is mandatory as it stands, whenever a petition shall be presented signed by 100,000 voters on the register." That is what Mr. Blythe said then. In other words, he said that whenever 100,000 voters on the register want to set up machinery for the Initiative, this Article makes it mandatory. Why did the Minister for Finance tell the people then that whenever 100,000 people on the register — it was amended in Committee afterwards to 75,000 — asked for the machinery of the Initiative to be set up it would be set up. Why did he do that? Did he really mean it, or was he simply seeking to secure the support of the people for his war measures? Was he simply asking the people to agree to the war measures that he afterwards took to get rid of Erskine Childers and Liam Mellowes?

It is not a bit of wonder that the Ministers want this to be discussed in the early hours of the morning, when the lowest possible number of people will hear the truth about the thing. We know that only the slightest possible amount of what we say here will get through to the people of the country as a whole, and when it does get through we can hardly recognise what we said. They want to hold these meetings of the Dáil to discuss these diabolical amendments when there will be nobody even on the Gallery. Deputy de Valera definitely charged the Government that the reason they have introduced these Constitution amendments is because they are fearful lest the people should throw them out of office. He also charged them that these Bills clearly show that they got into office under false pretences. What have the Ministers to say to those charges? I have read the extracts from their own speeches on Articles 47 and 48 which they now propose to abolish. If they were really in earnest then in asking the support of the people for this Constitution which contained Articles 47 and 48 why are they getting rid of them now? Why are they getting rid of these Articles of the Constitution by which they justified the execution of the Republican prisoners? That is what we want some Minister here to answer. We want them to give us the reasons here, and not to be putting on the closure. When we were speaking about this Constitution some of the Ministers sneered at us because we knew something about the Constitution, because we knew that the Constitution Act is outside and apart altogether from the Constitution. But the Constitution Act was not published and made known to the people when the people were asked to support the Cumann na nGaedheal Party during the first three quarters of 1922. It was only when they had the people in their grip, when they assumed dictatorial powers, that they put through the Constitution Amendment Act. They had then the ball at their own feet; they could then say that they had effectively closured the Republicans in this country. They had them either in jail or on the run, and they had some of them under the sod.

I think the Deputy ought to confine himself to the amendment.

I submit, A Leas-Chinn Comhairle, that I am strictly relevant.

I do not think so. I think the Deputy ought to keep to the amendment.

We are at present debating the abolition of Articles 47 and 48, and I am simply trying to show what the people understand by those Articles and what they understood, when these Articles were being introduced here, the effect of them would be. We have got a clear picture of this Constitution. Many of us waited for it. We had great hopes of it. We hoped it would prevent the disastrous civil war that took place in this country.

I would suggest to the Deputy that on this amendment he cannot discuss the whole question of the Constitution, and he certainly cannot discuss the question of the civil war.

Mr. BOLAND

Can the Deputy not discuss the reasons which enabled the Government to get a majority at the time? Can he not discuss what got it support, which was the advocacy of this particular portion of the Constitution? Surely that is relevant.

I am not taking any exception to the Deputy discussing Articles 47 and 48 of the Constitution or the amendment, but I do take exception to the Deputy discussing the whole Constitution and the civil war.

The point I would put to you, a Leas-Chinn Comhairle, is that the Deputy is trying to develop the argument that this thing was passed under certain conditions. I submit to you that he is entitled to show exactly what those conditions were, to show exactly what the arguments were that were put forward and the hopes that were held out. You cannot take this out of its human setting.

On a point of order, I do not suggest that Deputy Aiken was intentionally wrong, but the Deputy will remember that the civil war was practically over when the Constitution was being discussed.

That is not a point of order.

Where was it being discussed?

In this House.

That is different.

Interjection by Deputy FLINN.

You kept away from it at any rate.

I should like to keep away from you.

Deputy Gorey must sit down. Deputy Aiken is in order in discussing Article 47 and Article 48, which are mentioned in the amendment, but the Deputy is not in order in discussing anything outside that.

I am doing my best to keep within the strict bounds of order. Deputy Gorey said this Constitution was not discussed until after 1922. The Constitution was published, first of all, in June, 1922, and was being discussed right from the time the Treaty was passed — even before the Treaty was passed.

The Deputy cannot go back to 1922.

Mr. BOLAND

When the Constitution had its start in 1922, surely we are entitled to discuss it from its time of origin. I submit that, in all fairness, that is relevant.

I tried to make it clear to Deputy Aiken that he will be in order so long as he confines himself to Articles 47 and 48 of the Constitution, but he certainly will not be in order if he discusses the whole of the Constitution. It does not matter when it was introduced.

Exactly; but cannot the Deputy go back to 1922, seeing that that was the time it was introduced? Surely that is permissible.

It is not permissible to criticise decisions of this House.

I submit that for all that is left of the Constitution you might as well leave it to be discussed, as with a few more amendments it will be wiped out altogether.

You told us that it is not permissible to criticise a decision of this House, but this House has already decided that Article 48 was a clause of the Constitution, whereas Ministers have now introduced a motion to abolish it

We, and the country, are certainly interested in what was said when these Articles of the Constitution were being passed through this House, because the justification for all that the Executive Council did was that this Constitution was in existence, that these were the rules by which the Republicans who were fighting against them were asked to guide their conduct in national business. They said: "Why are these people fighting? Why are they in arms against us? Here we have a Constitution which is the most democratic Constitution of any country in the world and it will enable them to do anything they want for the people of Ireland. If they do not work that Constitution we must take whatever steps are necessary to render their opposition ineffective." President Cosgrave said that they spent £35,000,000 of money, but since we came in here he said that he never said it. He said that they spent £35,000,000 of public money, and they shot many people opposed to them, and they got many of their own soldiers killed.

I do not think that the Deputy should go back on that matter. It does not arise in the Bill or in the amendment, and the Deputy ought to leave it at that.

They deceived the people and they deceived their own men whom they got killed.

If Deputy Aiken is not going to obey the ruling of the Chair I must ask him to discontinue his speech.

Do you mean that you are not going to allow Deputy Aiken to continue his speech? Have you ruled that he cannot continue?

I have told Deputy Aiken on several occasions that he was out of order, but he persisted in being out of order.

Are we to take it that you order him to discontinue his speech?

On what point?

On the point that he is out of order and that he continues to be out of order.

£640 a year.

Is it in order for Deputy Flinn to make the mean insinuation that he has made about £640 a year? We have heard too many of these insults from Deputy Flinn towards every occupant of the Chair. Are they going to be permitted?

I beg to support Deputy Gorey in this matter.

Support the Government in anything they may do.

I am able to make up my own mind without the aid of Fianna Fáil or anyone else.

You never made up your mind to vote for us any way. I know who made up your mind.

There is one thing I have got at any rate, and that is respect for the Chair and the rulings of the Chair. I think that the happenings in this House during the last few days are not to its credit.

Is this in order?

Some people say that this House has been reduced to the level of a county council.

Is this in order?

Is Deputy Brennan in order in speaking now? I want a ruling on that.

Yes. If at any time the House thinks that the Chair has been insulted, a Deputy has a right to call the attention of the House to it.

Is Deputy Brennan talking about an insult to the Chair or about the proceedings of last week?

I maintain that the dignity of the House has been lowered.

The Deputy will have to confine himself to the question concerning the Chair.

As an Independent Deputy I feel that we are entirely under the protection of the Chair, and I think the Chair ought to be made to feel that in the discharge of its duties it has the protection of the House. I will refer to two things that happened in the House.

I cannot allow the Deputy to do that.

If you say so I will not, but it has been borne in strongly upon us that there has been total disrespect in this regard to the Chair, and the rulings of the Chair, and on that ground I think the House ought to make the Chair feel that it has an assurance of the support of the House in maintaining order.

I think the matter might be left at that.

I want to make it clear that I do not care who is in the Chair.

Neither do I.

If it were a Fianna Fáil Deputy we would pay him every respect. This attitude of deliberate insult towards the Chair, adopted by one Deputy at least, ought not to be permitted. It is painful to you, sir, and it is painful to Deputies to listen to such insults.

If you have such good hearing will you tell us what Deputy Flinn did say exactly? An Leas-Cheann Comhairle has as good hearing as you and he did not object to the statement.

I heard what he said all right.

Deputies will have to restrain themselves.

I think that we on these Benches have restrained ourselves considerably for the last fortnight. We restrained ourselves to this extent, that we almost refused to reply to the speeches made by the Opposition. We did not reply to them, because these speeches were not delivered, or meant to be delivered, in the interests of debate. They were delivered for purely obstructive reasons, and the most effective answer which we gave was the silence we maintained for the past week. We object, as my colleague, Deputy Gorey and Deputy Brennan just now remarked, to the continued insults paid to the Chair by members on the opposite side of the House.

Is the Deputy strictly in order now? He is not speaking to the amendment.

It is perfectly true in any case.

As true as the rest of you.

Deputy Aiken was speaking the truth also.

We will come to the motion in one brief sentence. It has been stated by Deputy Aiken that they will keep the rules of order of this House just as long as they suit themselves, and no longer. I do not think that I need say any more. I can leave the House to judge the merits or demerits of the question before it.

The Lord Chancellor.

Mr. BYRNE

There is no fear of Deputy Flinn ever being Lord Chancellor.

I do not think so.

Mr. BYRNE

To get down to the bare facts before us and to analyse what little shred of argument has been given to us, I will endeavour to consider the only reasonable contribution made to this debate and that is the speech delivered by Deputy de Valera. Deputy Aiken referred to it a moment ago when he said that the action we were taking was ultra vires. Let us examine the points of view put before the House in an orderly common-sense way and see which of the contentions are right. Deputy de Valera said: "But the moment any effort is made towards freedom by any section of the people, even if that section hope to get a majority behind it, then that section and that majority is to be deprived of constitutional action. It is to be blocked by this Constitution and these people will be told `If you want it you must not hope to get it from this Constitution, whatever way you may get it. You may get it by force but we have securely locked the door and have taken very good care that there will be no means through this Constitution by which a majority can hope to assert their freedom if they want it.' " That crystallises the whole case and the whole sum of the argument that has been presented to this House by the Opposition. Deputy de Valera went on to say that the action the Government have now taken in introducing the amendment Bills now before the House was ultra vires and it was not within our power to carry it. I would like to quote the view that is held on these benches so that the two views might be placed side by side. President Cosgrave speaking on the Constitution No. 6 Bill (Volume 20, page 986) said: "While the value of the Initiation machinery, foreshadowed in Article 48 is in any circumstances very doubtful, it is clearly wrong to allow a position of affairs to remain where the presence of an Article is being used to fool the populace, to delude them with the belief that it can be used for a purpose for which it cannot be used." I might add a further quotation in the same debate from a speech by Deputy Hogan, page 998. Deputy Hogan said: "The State is being attacked. It was attacked in the person of the Minister for Justice by certain weapons. Is it not being attacked by the Fianna Fáil Party? Which is the more dangerous, the more insidious form of attack? What is the object of that party? Is it not the overthrow of the State?" We have now the issues clearly placed before us — the Fianna Fáil point of view and the point of view of the Government and the question should be asked, which of these points of view is correct? A short time ago this House was presented with a petition and in that petition certain demands were made to this House. It was sought by means of Article 48, which the Bill before the House is intended to amend, entirely to remove from the Constitution Article 17. In reading Article 48 I would draw the attention of this House to a very important phrase that occurs therein: "The Oireachtas may provide for the initiation by the people of proposals for laws or constitutional amendments." The question I want to ask this House is, is the amendment proposed by means of a petition by the Fianna Fáil Party, a constitutional amendment. We on these benches hold that the amendment proposed by Fianna Fáil is grossly unconstitutional and was an amendment that could not be carried by the means they suggest.

Mr. BYRNE

I will tell you.

The Deputy cannot now discuss that. He must discuss the amendment on the Order Paper.

Mr. BYRNE

I am discussing the amendment.

The Deputy is not.

Mr. BYRNE

With all respect, I submit that we have been asked why this Article 48 has got to be amended, why it should be amended and what is the reason for amending it? The answer is contained in the few remarks which I am endeavouring to put to the House.

The Deputy is not in order in discussing Article 17 of the Petition which was presented here, and on which the House has given its judgment.

Mr. BYRNE

I have not the slightest intention of dealing with Article 17, but I do submit that I am entitled to suggest, from this side of the House, that the amendment that the Fianna Fáil Party has asked to be carried out by Article 48 was an amendment which in our opinion was absolutely ultra vires. I will point out in one moment why it should not be carried out by informing this House what is a constitutional amendment, that is, strictly within Article 48, which we are now discussing.

We are discussing amendment No. 3.

Is this a legal decision, or is it an obiter dictum of the learned Deputy?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle is not supposed to decide that point.

Mr. BYRNE

It is an interpretation of the Constitution as it now stands.

Where does it stand?

Mr. BYRNE

I believe Deputy Fahy has some legal training. I understood he has.

It is not worth a halfpenny.

Mr. BYRNE

I desire to make one or two points with the very greatest brevity. In this Constitution our country has been given a certain status, the status of dominionhood.

The Deputy cannot discuss the Constitution. He must discuss the amendment on the Paper.

Mr. BYRNE

Am I not entitled to state to the House why the amending of Article 48, which the Government now proposes should be carried out? We have been asked to state why that amendment should be carried out, and I am endeavouring to answer that question.

Do you remember telling us that we are a sovereign State?

Deputy Byrne is in order in discussing Article 47 or Article 48, but he cannot discuss the Constitution as a whole.

Mr. BYRNE

I must bow to the ruling of the Chair. If the Chair decides that the Constitution cannot be discussed it is not for me to question the ruling of the Chair. I merely point out one fact, that the use which the Opposition have endeavoured to make of Article 48 was absolutely ultra vires, and that the amending of Article 48, on which we are now engaged, is absolutely within the province and the powers of this House.

We are awaiting the explanation.

Mr. BYRNE

I am afraid the Chair has refused to allow me to put that explanation. If the Chair would allow me to put the explanation I could do it in a dozen crisp, short sentences. Why I think any member of the Fianna Fáil Benches——

Mr. BOLAND

The Chair should be indulgent in this case.

Mr. BYRNE

I want to come back to what Deputy de Valera said. One of the arguments as to why he said the Bill should not be amended and no alteration in the Seanad should take place, was that the Seanad was going to reproduce itself. I fail to see why such an argument can hold, or can be put forward in any House of this kind.

Is that in order — the reference to Article 48?

Mr. BYRNE

If I am not entitled to reply to the speech made by Deputy de Valera there is nothing more to be said. I have taken these extracts from Deputy de Valera's speech, and if the Opposition are not in humour, or do not wish to have them answered, I am perfectly satisfied to sit down.

Deputy Byrne should be allowed to proceed.

Mr. BYRNE

The little I have to say I fear would wash out all the arguments, and they are very small, that have been advanced here for days upon days by those sitting on the Opposition Benches. We were told by Deputy de Valera that the Seanad that we proposed was practically the longest that was known. I wonder did Deputy de Valera ever ascertain what are the real historical facts so far as that particular contribution to the debate is concerned. If one looks around the various countries of Europe what does one find? In France they have a Senate which numbers 300 and lasts for a period of nine years. In Italy the Senate is nominated for life by the King through his Ministers. In Canada, New South Wales and Queensland it is nominated for life.

On a point of order, did the Deputy ever hear of such a person as Mussolini when he speaks of the King of Italy nominating the Senate?

What, precisely, has the Seanad got to do with this Bill? Which section of the Bill refers to the Seanad?

I think that the Deputy will find that in Section 1 there is some reference to the method of election to the Seanad.

Mr. BYRNE

I am very glad that some portion of my arguments can be in order and that the Opposition has not succeeded in getting some answer to the various points I have made. I would just briefly remind Deputies on the Opposition Benches that the new mode of election to the Seanad has three very great advantages. The first advantage is that it will save the country £40,000 a year. The next advantage is that if we agree with all the definitions which Deputy de Valera has laid down——

This is a Bill dealing with the method of election to the Seanad.

Mr. BYRNE

As I have already said, I have every intention of obeying the ruling of the Chair. We on this side have the greatest respect for your rulings. I will only say one word in conclusion. We have been asked here to sit idle and stand supine while by means of Article 48——

Which is it?

Mr. BYRNE

——the Constitution is being torn to pieces. We on this side, when this particular Bill was introduced, stated our attitude, as far as that particular Article is concerned. We have been asked in this House to maintain and keep within the hands of the people the powers which they possess. Although we have been told by Deputy de Valera that we must not pay any great attention to the example of other countries so far as the creation and composition of our Seanad is concerned, we must retain in the Constitution this method of the Initiative, because should we remove this method of the Initiative from the hands of the people, all popular liberty, all popular rights are gone. I suggest that if we are not asked to follow the example of the great countries to which I have referred very briefly, there is no intelligible reason whatever why we should be asked to retain in this Constitution the Initiative, which is practically only followed by the most backward nation of Europe.

Why did you put it there?

Mr. BYRNE

I will only reply that I was not in the House when it was being put there.

That explains it.

Mr. BYRNE

If I happened to be in the House, I think I would have raised my voice in protest.

You would not.

Mr. BYRNE

We are told we must not follow the other great countries to which I referred, but we are to follow the example of Switzerland. Why are we asked to follow the example of Switzerland? Is Switzerland a great political entity deserving of the respect of the House? Does it afford any ray of guidance to us in the issues we are now debating? If one considers the position in Switzerland one will find out very easily how the Swiss stand politically.

The Deputy, in going to Switzerland, is going a long way from the Bill.

Mr. BYRNE

I am discussing the Initiative, and I submit I am in order in that. I would point out that the Initiative and the Referendum, which Deputy de Valera eulogises to such a very great extent, are practically not in use in any really up-to-date political entity in Europe. I would point out that in Switzerland, where the Initiative is in use, there is no such thing as woman suffrage; no such thing as proportional representation; the liberty of the Press is practically only of very recent growth; the liberty of the individual is by no means guaranteed; and trial by jury in many of the Swiss Cantons is unknown. Deputy de Valera, with the wonderful argument of a logician, suggests that we are not to mind the example of the other great countries which furnish real practical experience for the guidance of a young State such as ours, which is now setting out to rule itself, after being misruled for 700 years. We are to follow the guidance of what may be really termed a political back-number. What we are doing in amending this Article is in the interests of the country, in the interests of popular liberty, in the interests of the subject, and in the interests of the State, and we are determined to do our duty.

I think the Deputy ought not to be allowed to say that about a friendly State. I do not think we are at war with Switzerland, and he should not be allowed to refer to another country as a political back-number — it is going a bit too far.

Mr. BYRNE

I leave the ethics of politics to Deputy Boland to judge.

I am in earnest about this. I think that is a thing that should not be let pass. If it happened about another country he would be brought to order very quickly. I think he ought to withdraw.

I think much worse things have been said here about other countries.

Mr. BOLAND

I take your ruling— it will be very useful.

Mr. BYRNE

I am glad that Deputy Boland is so anxious about the status of Switzerland and political etiquette as far as this House is concerned.

Mr. BOLAND

Deputy Boland is glad of the opportunity it will afford him to refer to other friendly States in future.

Mr. BYRNE

If he would only observe the rules of order in this House and give the respect to the Chair which it deserves, there would be more progress made and more done for the people and for the uplifting of the State than by listening to those empty speeches that we have been forced to listen to for the last fortnight.

I have endeavoured to find in the few brief remarks which the President thought fit to deliver to the House when introducing this Bill some justification for it. I have found his justification for the Bill could be very briefly stated. He started with the platitude. He said "majorities have rights and these rights must be secured to them" and then he said as an argument in justification for this Bill that there is adequate provision in the constitution for the expression of political opinions and that the Initiative and the Referendum did not recommend themselves to the Executive Council, for that reason we presume. In connection with the Initiative alone he said "it served no useful purpose." In that statement of the President we must take it we will find the motives that influenced the Government in bringing this Bill in this manner before the House. I do not think I could find any additional information in the oration to which we have just listened from Deputy Byrne. He will be occupied no doubt for the rest of the night in endeavouring to sit idly and to stand supinely. He will have a difficult job. He succeeds in doing it but so long as he does not try it in the House it will be all right.

I hope in the discussion of this Bill we will not have the same guilty silence from the front bench opposite that we had in connection with the Constitution Amendment Bill that passed second reading. I trust some little light will be let in upon the discussion that took place in the Executive Council or the Committee Rooms of Cumann na nGaedheal when the decision was adopted for the abolition of Articles 47 and 48 of the Constitution. It is not sufficient for the President to give as justification for this Bill that majorities have their rights and that those rights must be secured to them, because this is a Bill which takes from a majority of the Irish people the rights given to them by the Constitution.

From a minority!

I do not want to say anything hard to Deputy Gorey, but I think he is in the wrong place here. I think he might have realised it before this. If he wants to say anything there will be plenty of time to say all he can possibly think of. I do not say that it will be much, but he can deliver it without much interruption, I hope.

I hope so.

Article 47 of the Constitution, one of the Articles which must be abolished, is to secure to the majority the rights they possess, and is an Article that provides that any Bill passed by this House can be referred by a Referendum to the people on a demand to that effect being signed by two-fifths of the Deputies here or one half of the members of the Seanad. It does not become law unless the majority of the people approve of it by their votes. This Bill, we are told, is to secure to the majority the rights they have. It is the very reverse of what the President described it. It is a Bill to take away from the majority of the people rights given to them five years ago, when this Constitution was enacted. Article 48 is the Article that provides that the people can take steps to set up machinery for the initiation of laws by this House — laws which could not become operative unless the majority of the people, by Referendum, voted for them. When President Cosgrave introduced the Bill and stuck his hand in his breast, like Napoleon, and said "the majority have rights and these rights must be secured them," he was just trying to hoodwink the Dáil and the Irish people. This is a Bill to take from the majority the rights they possess, to prevent the majority exercising those rights, and it is because I assert the Government are afraid to face the majority on particular issues that this Bill is introduced.

There is adequate provision in the Constitution for the expression of political opinions. There is, of course, provision in the Constitution for the democratic election of members of the Dáil. But is it seriously maintained that these provisions are adequate for the purpose of getting a clear expression of the people's opinion upon particular issues? Deputies opposite just as Deputies on this side of the House have all gone through the general election. They have all been elected by the votes of the people, and they know quite clearly that a general election is not a suitable opportunity for getting the expression of people's opinions on particular issues. The issues that come before the people at a general election are confused by the personality of the candidate, by the records of the Party to which the candidate belongs, by the policy of that Party, and by a variety of matters such as personal friendships, likes and dislikes. The result of a general election is a general indication of people's opinion as to which Party should constitute the Government. But as an indication of people's opinion on a particular issue, as, say, the retention of Article 17 of the Constitution, it is not an instrument for getting that opinion at all. If it is desired to get a clear expression of the people's opinion upon matters of that kind or on matters of the important nature which have been mentioned here, it is by the machinery of the Initiative or the Referendum that that opinion can best be secured, because by that machinery the people will be asked to give their opinion on one item only, unconfused by question of personalities. The Initiative and the Referendum do not recommend themselves to the Executive Council. Of course not. The majority have their rights, and these rights must be taken from them while there is time.

There is a section in the Constitution which provides it can only be amended by law within eight years and, therefore, we have all this indecent haste before the eight year period has expired to filch from the people the democratic rights they were given in 1922 and on the strength of which a civil war was fought. No wonder the Initiative and the Referendum do not recommend themselves to the Executive Council. It is extraordinary that the sections of the Constitution which provide for the democratic election of members to this House, recommend themselves to the Executive Council. Perhaps this is only the beginning. Perhaps the next step that will be taken in the middle of an all-night sitting will be to abolish the system of democratic election altogether. We could advance strong arguments in favour of an intellectual aristocracy and a benevolent dictatorship. It is coming. This is the first step in that direction to prevent the people having any means by which they check the doings of this House, and take out of their hands any means by which they could initiate and pass legislation irrespective of the opinion of the majority in this House. No wonder that the Initiative and the Referendum do not recommend themselves to the Executive. No wonder we are to sit until eight on to-morrow morning to discuss this Bill. Of course the possibility is that the closure may be moved before that. In order that Deputies may fully appreciate the significance of the introduction of this Bill in this manner at this time it may be necessary to review briefly the history of the Bill. As Deputy Aiken pointed out, Articles 47 and 48 of the Constitution were inserted therein in 1922 with a great blare of trumpets, with a great proclamation of the desire of the Government to ensure that the will of the people would prevail and would always prevail in this State.

In order that the people might be made familiar and kept familiar with the doings of their legislators, in order that they might keep a check on and be able to revise the action of their legislators, these Articles were provided in the Constitution. As Deputy Aiken has pointed out, these Articles and similar Articles were taken and proclaimed in justification of all that happened after that Constitution passed through the Dáil — to make Ireland safe for democracy. To make Ireland safe for democracy a civil war was fought, and on that plea £20,000,000, £35,000,000 or £50,000,000 were sent up in smoke. That was to make Ireland safe for democracy and to ensure the retention of the democratic rights of the people——

Is Deputy Lemass in order in this matter? He brought me to task for a lesser offence.

I think I am to be the judge of the offence. Deputy Lemass is beginning to wander from the amendment.

The point I want to make is this, that if there were any Articles of the Constitution which the Government in common decency could not touch they were these Articles which they pleaded in justification for all the action they took after that Constitution became law. They did not hesitate to justify the deed, which could not be justified in any other manner, by saying that they were necessary to insure that these Articles should be the fundamental law of this State. They became the law. They succeeded in smashing down opposition to their policy. They forced that Constitution on the Irish people, and then fought an election upon the grounds that they were going to take equally drastic steps to retain the Constitution. As I said before, they made magnificent speeches about their attitude. They struck heroic attitudes; at every cross-roads in the country they proclaimed themselves to be super-men, men of iron, men who would never flinch, men who were going to preserve the Constitution no matter what the so-and-so irregulars would do to circumvent it.

A faint, far-away "hear, hear." The Constitution became law. The Constitution was looked upon as something which should not be altered except where the alteration was obviously needed in the interests of the people. Articles 47 and 48 were the gilt on the ginger-bread. They represented part of the covering of democracy which hid the less democratic and much more significant Articles which provided for the authority of the British Monarch in this country. That is the preliminary of the history of the Bill. When we consider this Bill we must keep that civil war and all it meant to this country in the back of our minds. A certain number of individuals who thought that this Constitution had some significance, who thought that Article 48 was meant seriously, proceeded to take advantage of it. The Article provides that if the Oireachtas has not made provision for the initiation of laws and constitutional amendments by the people within two years, it must do so upon a petition of 75,000 voters being presented to them to that effect.

As I said, a certain number of people who thought that the Government, in common decency, could not run away from this Constitution, proceeded to take advantage of that Article in order to abolish a much more objectionable Article in the Constitution. In order to effect other constitutional changes and other legislative steps which are necessary a petition was signed. By the efforts of voluntary workers throughout the country that petition was signed.

On a point of order. I think the Deputy should not deal with the petition. Is the Deputy in order?

I am dealing with the history of the Bill. The petition was signed under Article 48 of the Constitution and the purpose of it was to provide that the machinery for the Initiative would be set up by this Oireachtas. That was signed by the efforts of voluntary individuals throughout the country. Almost 100,000 signatures were collected. These volunteer workers took their list of signatures before Peace Commissioners and solemnly swore that they were genuine signatures——

Surely that matter has already been decided? I do not think the Deputy should go back upon it.

I am merely recounting the events which led up to the introduction of this Bill. I believe so far as the petition is concerned that——

So far as the petition is concerned the Dáil has decided on that already.

It has decided to postpone it.

The Dáil has come to a decision on it.

As the Leas-Cheann Comhairle says, that petition was presented to this House——

I did not say any such thing.

—and the Government refused to agree to its acceptance. Article 48, which it is now proposed to abolish, does not give the Government any liberty of choice in respect of such a petition. They were bound to accept it. They were bound to accept that petition and to set up the machinery or else ignore the Constitution. They decided to ignore the Constitution.

The Deputy cannot argue that now. He must argue Amendment No. 3.

I am coming to the amendment now, but in order to understand the amendment it is necessary that the history of the Bill should be recounted. I am not dealing with these Articles in order to repeat or to go over something else that has already been decided. I am showing the steps leading up to the introduction of the Bill by the Government. Following upon the refusal of the Government to accept the petition a motion was tabled by Deputy de Valera: "That the petition be received," and then President Cosgrave announced that the Government would oppose the motion. It was then that events began to move. It was upon the announcement by President Cosgrave that that motion would be opposed by the Government that matters began to happen which resulted in this Bill. The first indication that something was happening was a leading article in the "Irish Times." The "Irish Times" said that the Government is unconstitutional. It is proposing to ignore the Constitution, and by doing so it is opening up an amazing vista of lawlessness and irregularity; and what is more important, that they are giving Mr. de Valera an amazingly bad precedent.

Mr. SHEEHY

Surely that is not in order? What have we to do with the "Irish Times"?

I think Deputy Lemass will have to come to the amendment. What he is now dealing with has been dealt with in this House before, and very recently too. I do not think he should go back upon it.

This Bill has been introduced because of a certain amendment to Deputy de Valera's motion which was carried in the Dáil. It was introduced at the suggestion of the "Irish Times.""The Irish Times" suggested step by step everything that has actually happened. They suggested that President Cosgrave's attitude was wrong and unwise. They suggested that a motion should be moved to postpone discussion upon Deputy de Valera's motion, that the excuse could be offered that no machinery was in existence for the examination of such a petition, and as Deputy Aiken read out, they then said:—"But take very good care that the Government is not caught napping twice," and before such machinery could be set up, before such a Committee could be formed, a Bill to abolish the Article in the Constitution should be introduced, and that is what happened. I do not know whether the writer of this leading article in the "Irish Times" is a prophet — I do not think so——

I do not think we can discuss what were the reasons for the introduction of the Bill. The fact is that the Bill is before the House. The Deputy must discuss the Bill itself and the amendment.

In any case the Bill is here. As a result of all that has happened in the last three or four weeks we are presented with this Bill. I have an amendment down to postpone the consideration of this Bill for twelve months. My reason for putting down this amendment is because the introduction of this Bill at this time outrages common decency. Its introduction now is the last step in a very dirty game, a game to deceive this House and the Irish people, and I, for one, was amazed to see that Deputy Thrift allowed himself to be used as a tool of the Government in the playing of that dirty game.

I think Deputy Lemass will have to withdraw that statement.

I will say that Deputy Thrift acted on his own initiative.

I do not think it is right to say that any Deputy acted as a tool for any particular political party. I think the Deputy will see that.

The Bill is now before us — the Bill to abolish Articles in the Constitution which were used to justify everything that did happen, and of which I hope some of the Deputies opposite are ashamed, in 1922 and 1923. These are Articles to provide that the majority will of the Irish people can be made effective in this State. It is proposed to abolish that. These Articles do not recommend themselves to the Executive Council. The Executive Council have other ideas in mind. I propose to postpone the consideration of this Bill for twelve months. I do so because I think it is not possible for any Deputy in this House to be associated in any way with the game the Government is playing without coming out of that game bearing some marks of the mud.

I think that the Government in their own interests and to preserve the last shred of decency that is left them should agree to accept my amendment. It is going to go down on record that this game was played. It is going to appear on the records of this House that this thing was done, and the historian of the future will read the article in the Irish Times and the events in this House, and he will see that the Irish people during this period had a Government so backboneless, so invertebrate, that a leading article writer in the Irish Times could dictate its policy.

Deputy de Valera has moved that this Bill be not further considered as it is the opinion of the Dáil that Articles 47 and 48 should be retained until the people by direct vote have expressed their will on the question of deletion. The majority have rights and these rights must be secured to them, and surely the Irish people have the right to say whether or not these articles should be deleted. Remember at the end of another year or so it will not be possible to delete these Articles at all by law. Before any other amendment in the Constitution can be made and before any of the steps which we are going to take between this and 8 o'clock in the morning can be rectified, it will be necessary, as Deputy Flinn said, to get all the people who voted for Fianna Fáil, for Cumann na nGaedheal and Labour put together — two-thirds of the voters on the register — to effect the change. After this Bill becomes law a majority will be powerless to alter the Constitution by a single comma. Not even two-thirds of those who vote on a Referendum, but actually two-thirds on the register, would be needed. We could not get them to vote in the last election; we had only 60 per cent of a poll. If every person who voted in the last general election voted for a single Constitutional amendment they would not be able to secure their aim under the terms of this Constitution.

We should be very careful before we take the steps we are going to take now, before we take away from the people the right the Constitution gives them to check the work of the Dáil. We should get their opinion about it first. We should use the machinery of the Referendum and ask the opinion of the people about this matter. If the majority of the people want to delete those Articles we will not oppose their will. It is because the Government know right well that the majority of the people, sooner than delete the Articles, would vote them out of office, that they are proposing their amendments now and are pressing these matters to a division. I challenge them to take any steps whatever to get an indication of the people's will on this Bill. They are afraid to face the people on it. They are even afraid to defend it in the Dáil. They sit there mute of malice. They are relying on their tame majority to put the Bill through irrespective of what arguments can be advanced against it. They put up Deputy Byrne to make the case, adding insult to injury.

He got up himself. Be fair to them.

I hoped when the Government decided to sit all night for the consideration of this and other matters that their reason for doing so was to avoid the necessity of resorting to the discreditable tactics they had resorted to on the previous Bill. I hope they will not attempt to prevent any Deputy in this Dáil saying what he thinks. If it is not proposed to take the views of the people on the matter, at any rate take the views of the people's representatives and let us have none of this jumping up and moving of the closure. Are we to take it that the Government is not merely afraid to face the people, but is afraid to face the Dáil in fair discussion upon this measure? Personally, I feel strongly upon this. I know exactly the arguments that were used by the Minister for Local Government, the Minister for Fisheries and several of their colleagues to ensure that an opportunity would be given them to set up this Dáil and to provide for the passing of this Constitution. It was not this Constitution that they were talking about then. It was the Republican Constitution that was going to make all the difference in the Treaty.

Perhaps the Deputy would confine himself to the amendment.

But this is the Constitution that came, and these are two of the Articles which they produced and now, in the year 1928, having secured themselves in office, having built up their reserves of power, having organised, trained and disciplined an army to defend them, and having no need for the services of the fools they relied on in 1922, they proceed to tear up this Constitution, to strip it of every democratic provision, and leave it a document which would proclaim nothing else except that His Majesty King George V. is to be the final authority in this island. Is it too much to hope that there are members of Cumann na nGaedheal who are not so entirely lost to shame that even at this stage they will begin to see where they are going and they will help us to stop the rout, help us to provide, not that our policy will become the dominant policy of this country and not that the Government's policy on major national matters will be reversed, but that some provision will be made by which the people will be able to express their will on these matters as single issues? That is not asking for much. It is not asking for much from men who once were proud to belong to the Sinn Fein movement. It is not asking much from men who once boasted they were Irish Republicans—to ask them merely to keep in this Constitution provisions by which the majority of the people can occasionally and at considerable difficulty make their will effective; effective on matters concerning the national status as well as on matters concerning their social welfare. There is, perhaps, some prospect of securing amongst the ranks of Cumann na nGaedheal that support which I am asking for, but it is very slight, I am afraid. The Party Whips are there to see that the prospect does not become a probability. Many arguments could be used to keep men on the easy road when it is a difficult thing to take the right road. I know what it is. But I hope that sufficient will be found even in the ranks of Cumann na nGaedheal to resent the dishonesty of this Bill and to reject it, and by rejecting it to reject the Government that introduced it.

There have been appeals made, rather pathetically at the end, by Deputy Lemass that somebody from the Front Government Bench should deal with the arguments which have been put forward by his Party against the measure now before the House. I am afraid that my main difficulty is to find arguments in the three speeches which have been addressed to us, and not the difficulty of answering what I can at best describe as the semblance of arguments which have been put up. I certainly thought that there would be some speaker from the Fianna Fáil Party who would take this question up as a serious one, and argue it as a serious question and on the merits. Not one of the three speakers from the Fianna Fáil Party has attempted to do anything of the kind.

I take firstly Deputy de Valera's speech. I heard most of it delivered by him the other evening, and I have read through the whole of it. Argument I cannot find in it, unless, indeed, you think that vituperation is argument, and that by mere unbounded invective you can carry your point always. I consider the speech which Deputy Aiken delivered more extreme in vituperation and more wanting even in the semblance of argument than Deputy de Valera's first speech. I come now to the more temperate speech which Deputy Lemass delivered, but none the less on the same ground: invective, invective, and nothing but invective, no attempt by any single one of the speakers to get down to the real point at issue.

We have been charged again and again with want of good faith and want of honesty. We are told that this is an entirely dishonest measure on our part. I repudiate that. It is not. This is a Bill brought in by us for one purpose, and one purpose only, and that is to improve the Constitution. We considered that that Constitution had defects. Every Constitution will have defects. Nothing that has ever come from the brains of man, I might say, but has shown by experience its defects, and because we believe that this Initiative is a bad thing, is a defect in the Constitution, we wish to eradicate it from the Constitution. As the President said the other day, we expressed our arguments against this Initiative as far back as last July. I have endeavoured to analyse Deputy de Valera's speech, but when I tear away the rhetoric and the invective from it, I find very little behind it. The only thing that I can see in it, in the nature of argument, is where he says — and this does not go to the merits of the Initiative at all —"I said before if these powers which are given in the Constitution are to be taken away from the people, the people should be consulted." The people have been consulted and the people have spoken. The Bill that was introduced last July was before the people at the General Election in September, and upon that Bill and on the policy of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party the people voted at the last general election and returned us to power. I think if you look at it fairly and honestly you will admit that the Government, having introduced the Bill, having expressed their intention to do a thing and having gone to the country with that Bill as one of the planks in their platform, not to do that thing would be to betray the trust reposed in them by the people who elected them to this Dáil.

Deputy de Valera went on to say, though possibly he did not completely mean it, but it has been rubbed in all through the speech of Deputy Lemass, that it is a fundamental right of the people to have this policy of initiation. That means, I suppose, that you can have no democratic Constitution unless you have the Initiative in it. The argument seems to be that it is inherent in the people to have the power to initiate legislation. Are there any free peoples in the world at all, or how many peoples in the world are free if that be a fundamental right? How many peoples in the world have given up or have never enjoyed that fundamental right and are ignorant of its very existence? Are the peoples in the States of New York or in California not free because they have no powers of initiation? Are all the great Republics of South America, or is France, another Republican country—are the citizens of those States not free, and are they deprived of their fundamental rights because they have no right of initiation in their Constitutions? Deputy Aiken declared that this Bill would be ultra vires if it became law. That is an argument which I cannot follow. I do not precisely know what Deputy Aiken meant by it, though he repeated the phrase again and again, but I can tell Deputy Aiken that this Oireachtas is sovereign in this State, that every law it passes is binding upon the people of this State, and that, as far as the Oireachtas is concerned there can be nothing ultra vires.

Deputy Aiken quoted various phrases. One, which I took down, was that the people were in the saddle, and that there was to be no gun pulling. That is an absolutely clear statement of our policy: that the people are in the saddle; that the people elect their representatives to this Dáil, and that this is the chamber which ultimately and finally wields power in this State.

The people are in power; the people are in the saddle, and they are free to put whom they like into power. They do it through the ordinary medium of a general election. As far as the Deputy's arguments go they seem to be this: That representative government is worn out; that representative government is undemocratic; that representative government is not sufficient unless it has been supplemented by some of these, what I would describe as fancy things, like the power of initiation. That is not my view. I believe in representative government, and I believe that representative government, pure and simple, is the best form of government for this country, and in my humble judgment these added things, like Referendum or Initiative, are clogs and difficulties and defects in respect of the system of representative government.

Deputy de Valera in a speech which he made on this question some time ago brought forward as an argument that Initiation has been a success in Switzerland. It may be. I will admit that it is, but anything more unlike the situation in Switzerland and the situation in the Irish Free State I certainly cannot imagine. To begin with, Switzerland is a federal union. Switzerland consists of 24 independent States that have come together as one federal state. Switzerland had one of the most difficult problems that could be dealt with, and it was dealt with in a way that suited the Swiss people. The Swiss Constitution was brought in after Switzerland had been racked by civil war. The Forest Cantons had been beaten and the other Cantons had come in at the end of that civil war, and a bitter civil war because it was fought on religious grounds. Then this Swiss Constitution for the first time was established, and the Swiss Constitution was dealing with a very strange problem, because the Swiss people as well as their Cantons have Communes—I am not sure of the number, but I think there are something over 2,000 Communes. In several of these Communes there is no representative government. The people meet together, and they do their business, not through delegates and not through representatives, but they do it in person. That was the history behind Switzerland and that was the training the Swiss people had.

The Swiss people found, no doubt, that this Referendum, the power of Initiation, suited them, but where else has it been tried? In a Constitution which was established in Germany very much about the same time as the Irish Constitution, Initiation was also introduced. Has Initiation been a success or a failure in Germany? It has been tried twice in Germany, and on both occasions it has shown itself an absolute farce. The first attempt by the German people to exercise their power of initiation was when they initiated a Bill for the confiscation of the properties of those who had been the ruling Princes in Germany prior to the Revolution. That was opposed by the Government of the day. There was a Referendum. The German Referendum requires 50 per cent. of voters, but less than 50 per cent. went to the poll. The thing was lost after great expense and great discomfort to the German people, and the whole thing at the end proved a complete failure. The second attempt at Initiation in Germany was during the time when the currency question was largely debated, and after the German Government had brought in certain proposals for regulating the currency an attempt was made to initiate legislation by certain persons who held large sums of paper money. They presented a petition to the German Government which would, in the opinion of the German Government at any rate, have brought a considerable amount of trouble and turmoil to the country, with the result that the Government passed legislation to the effect that any petition of this nature would have to be treated as a Referendum on a Money Bill, which meant it could only be granted by the President, and the President, General Von Hindenburg, refused any such Referendum. There you had only two cases in Germany where this power of Initiation was attempted to be used, and in both cases it has ended up in complete fiasco. If I may, I will quote, not as an authority, but a mere statement of fact, from an admirable monograph recently published on the new democratic constitutions in Europe. It was to this effect:

"It is significant that the really big issues, such as the acceptance of the Dawes Report, or the entrance of Germany to the League of Nations, were considered to be too critical and too important to be submitted to the people, and the people showed sufficient discernment and sufficient confidence in their rulers not to interfere."

Of course, argument from analogy is always, to a certain extent, a defective argument, but as far as you can argue from analogy, it is one of the best arguments, if not the best argument which we can have. At the present moment we find that in other countries which have started like us this Initiation has been used, not for the advantage of the people, but for the disadvantage of the people. There has been a tremendous amount of argumentum ad hominem here, a very poor class of argument indeed, but our position is clear, that having given the matter full weight and full consideration we are of the opinion that the retention of this power in the Constitution would not be for the benefit of the people of this country, and would not make for future peace or security in this country, and we are further strengthened in this belief by the history of what has taken place.

I am not going back upon previous debates but we do know that the only occasion upon which any effort was made to utilise the power of initiation in this country was a deliberate attempt to wreck our Constitution.

The Minister for Justice has challenged an argument on this subject, and, before entering into it, I would like to draw the attention of the House to the Bill which is actually before it. It is to delete Articles 47 and 48 of the Constitution. I submit that you cannot consider that proposal in any adequate or thoughtful way unless you take into consideration the conditions and the circumstances under which the Constitution itself was framed, and the purpose for which those Articles were included in it. In considering such a proposal, I would like to emphasise to the House, to ask them to consider that this is no mere commonplace, ordinary legislative measure that is now before it. We have often been taunted with obstructing and holding up the business. I want to leave that phase of the matter altogether on one side, and to those who would try to restrict or limit debate upon this matter, I would quote the dictum of a great parliamentarian, Charles James Fox, who said that deliberation, and not despatch, was the duty of legislative assemblies. We are considering a fundamental law of this State. We are proposing to alter and to change that law, whether for the better or for the worse is the point which we have to argue. At any rate it is always a delicate and a dangerous thing to tamper with the fundamentals of anything, whether it be a creed or a building or a constitution. I would like that we should leave behind us, if we can, the atmosphere that has been engendered here during the past few days, and consider this matter in a calmer but not less earnest spirit, to consider it not as partisans fighting to retain or to obtain some temporary political advantage, but as men charged with a great public duty who will be judged by the people upon the results of their efforts to-day. We, on this side of the House, admittedly, and it may be a weakness in our position, necessarily approach this problem from two aspects and in two frames of mind. Primarily we view the Constitution which we are now discussing as an instrument which, if not actually imposed in toto from without, at least, in certain essential forms was determined by an exterior power. We feel that the provisions of this enactment which have been so determined are unfortunately considered by the majority of this House to be the essential provisions, and, therefore, we feel that any change which we must make in that Constitution must be a revolutionary change, that we must change it not in its accidentals, but in its essence. On the other hand, by force of circumstances, we have come here. We have been compelled to accept in the letter, if not in the spirit, the forms that have been imposed upon us, and we can look upon other provisions in this Constitution in the light of a contract regulating the relations between the effective Executive power in this State and the people whom we represent. In respect of those particular provisions and in respect of them only, we can place ourselves in the position of representatives of the people who believe in and wish to preserve and to secure not only the national, but the popular liberties. I would like if we could make that a common ground between ourselves upon these benches and the Deputies in every other section of the House. I would wish that that principle could be accepted, and that we could, without reservation of any sort, take it that every single Deputy here, even if he does not believe in the wider, the fuller, the wholly unqualified national freedom which we seek, at least believes that every single citizen in this State should be secured in his rights as a man.

In answer to an interruption the other day, the Ceann Comhairle emphatically declared that this House derives its authority from the people and from no other source whatever. We welcome that pronouncement from the head of this Assembly. We endorse it, and we will uphold it to the fullest extent of our power. It is because we believe that all authority is derived from the people that the exercise of authority by this House or by any component of this House, or by any organ in this State, should be always controlled, checked and guided by the effective power of the people, by the will of the people, expressed through the organ of the Constitution, that we are opposing the deletion of Articles 47 and 48 from this Bill. This House, in the words of the Ceann Comhairle, and I think that we ought to remember them always when we are discussing these fundamental Statutes, derives its authority from the people. The acknowledgment of that principle took a long time to secure, longer here in Ireland, possibly, than in any other land on the globe. It was secured as a result of suffering through centuries, suffering by generations of the common people, and when the common people secured the almost universal acceptance of that principle, I would ask you to remember how jealous they were of it, how metaculously they set themselves to devise safeguards for it, and how jealous they were, when the need arose, always to assert it. Many constitutional forms were devised to this end. The operative and essential principle of every one of them was found in the division of authority among the organs of government.

The Minister for Justice said that he was a believer in representative government. He asked us did we, on these benches, declare that representative government had broken down. Let the Minister for Justice read any single modern analysis of modern constitutions, particularly the constitution from which the Constitution of this State derives, the Constitution of Great Britain, and let him answer himself whether or not representative government has broken down. Every impartial observer who has examined the British Constitution from which, as I said before, this Constitution derives, and which in many respects it resembles, is certain, at any rate, that if representative government has not broken down it is, so far as Great Britain is concerned, in the last stage of degeneration. When the people secured the acknowledgment of that principle to which I have referred they devised certain machinery whereby it would be made effective, and, as I have said before, they realised, with Hobbes, that freedom is political power divided into small fragments. Therefore they made certain that no power and no authority should be concentrated in any one organ in the State. In some cases they allotted to the head of the State certain functions; to other sections and classes within the State they allotted certain other functions.

In some cases these functions were divided between two, three and four assemblies. In the case of our State, in the case of Great Britain and in the case of the United States the power was divided between the head of the State, an Upper Chamber if you like to call it so, and a Lower Chamber. For years that division of authority was effective, but by the passage of time it has been nullified and the safeguards which were based upon it have, for the most part, disappeared to-day. For years it was effective in Great Britain, and for a long time men looked upon the Government of that country as a model to be imitated and as the finest expression of the principle in practice, but in no other country in the world has the decay of that principle been more rapid and more complete. Gradually the three separate functions of the head of the State, of the upper or revisory Chamber and of the Parliament, have been usurped by one component. One hundred years ago England enjoyed what was known as representative or Parliamentary government—government by a monarch and two Houses of Parliament. Forty or fifty years later that Parliamentary Government had become Cabinet Government, with the Cabinet and the Parliament alternately the important and determining factor in it. The Throne in itself was important, but in relation to the other two factors was comparatively insignificant and ineffective. To-day the process of evolution or degeneration has gone a step further, and all power and all authority is centred ostensibly in the Cabinet or, more accurately speaking, in a cabal within the Cabinet.

I remarked that our Constitution, deriving as it did from the British Constitution, had certain resemblances to it, and I am emphasising the degeneration and decay which befell the British Constitution, because the fact that our Constitution had to a certain extent to be modelled upon the British Constitution furnished the central problem which the Committee which drafted and considered this Constitution of ours had to solve. Our Constitution resembles the British Constitution, but there are very striking, very essential and very important differences. The most important of them are Articles 47 and 48. Why were those Articles inserted? The President has stated that they were introduced because they happened at the time to be fashionable Constitutional devices meant to impose upon the people, but never meant to be effective—meant to attract popular support, but never meant to be effectively used. Surely the President, when he makes that statement, is not just to two great men who are gone and who cannot rise in this House to vindicate their memory. The President knew Arthur Griffith longer than I did, possibly longer than most of us in this House, and he knew him better than I did, I daresay, because I only knew him from 1916 until his death. Can anyone who ever knew that man and who can look back on the years that are gone and feel the prouder for having been associated, however distantly and humbly, with the great work which he did for this people—can anyone stand up here in this House and sincerely and truthfully declare that he did anything for show, solely with intention to deceive, and that, above all things, in the moulding of this Constitution that he did what he himself, on the very last day on which he recommended the Treaty to the Dáil, declared he never did, whatever else he may have done—deceive this people? Can anyone say that Arthur Griffith, whom we all knew and whom we all— no matter how we may have differed from him years ago—revere and cherish in our hearts, inserted in that Constitution one single provision which he did not feel to be essential, necessary and vital, giving to the people some power which he did not think was in their interest and to their continual welfare to use? What I have said of Griffith I will say of Michael Collins. His ways were not mine, but I do believe that, deriving from the people, believing in the people and sincerely desirous of emancipating the people, he, so far as he could within the four corners of the Treaty, forged for the people an instrument which, as he said himself, though it was not freedom, at least gave them the means to achieve freedom. And these two men, to whose memory so much lip-service has been paid within the last four years, had associated with them in the drafting of this Constitution the keenest intellects in Ireland which they could command.

If we examine the position in which Collins and Griffith and the members of the Constitution Committee found themselves in the year 1922, we will understand why Articles 47 and 48 were inserted in the Constitution and why, no matter who else may do it in this House, the President and those associated with him who pretend to stand here as the inheritors of the things that Griffith and Collins gave— at least they, whoever else may do it, should not delete Articles 47 and 48 from the Constitution If they do, they take the very key-stone from that Constitution and assuredly this State which was meant to be a democracy will become an autocracy and the Constitution itself will tumble down in ruin.

When the Constitution Committee came to examine the position in which they were under the Treaty, they found that, by the Treaty, they were compelled to draft a Constitution modelled more or less upon the British model, a Constitution in which the representative of the King of Great Britain should form at least one component part. They found that so far as Great Britain is concerned, as I have emphasised, the system of Constitutional checks and balances, which had grown up through the centuries, had broken down completely within the last hundred years and that, so far from that Constitution fulfilling the essential requisite for freedom which Hobbes who examined the position minutely laid down—that freedom was political power divided into small fragments— now all political power in Great Britain had become centred in one organ in the State. It might have been possible to remedy that position if we could take and make again as an actual functioning component in the Government a head of the State who would enjoy the affection and the loyalty of the subjects. The old system might have been made effective here in Ireland if we could have had, as head of the State, the descendant of a royal line stretching back through the centuries, whose power and importance had waxed with the prosperity and progress of the people. It might indeed have been possible to remedy that position if we had been able to choose, by public election, as head of the State that citizen whose private merit and public character had secured for him the trust and confidence of the people. But these essential things were denied to the men who had to draft this Constitution. Our native thrones were overthrown; our princes were banished, and, as the key-stone of the whole Constitution and the whole Government, we were compelled to instal the representative of a foreign throne who, so far from commanding the respect and affection of the mass of this people, had, at the very best, only secured their passive hatred.

That was one of the great fundamental difficulties which Griffith, Collins and the Constitution-makers had to overcome. Sharing that feeling to the fullest, those who made that Constitution determined that the representative of the Crown in Ireland should only be a symbol. They did not believe, and they did not indeed seek to secure, that such a power as was represented by that symbol would ever be effective in securing the liberty of the people. At the same time they saw the danger of a non-controlled Executive. They were familiar with, and they feared, the methods which had overcome Parliamentary Government elsewhere, and they wished, therefore, to place in the hands of the people some weapon which would make the Executive at once the instrument of the people's will, and at the same time protect and secure the rights of minorities in this State. Only that State is free and only that State is democratic, in the true sense of the word, in which the rights, even of the weakest member of the community, are secured against unlawful aggression. Remove Article 47 from the Constitution, and what protection is there for any minority, or any individual, in the country who dares to oppose the power of the Executive?

That is the argument; that is the reason—to protect minorities and to secure the rights of the weakest among us—why Griffith and Collins inserted Article 47 in the Constitution. I submit that it was a nobler and loftier reason and one more in accord with the true character of these men than the one which President Cosgrave, to his shame, adduced here in this House. I hope that those who are here as Independent representatives, who proclaim that they do not belong to any Party, who stand within the polity of this State as single individuals and alone, will listen to what I am going to say and will ask themselves with me what protection is there, if Article 47 is removed, for any minority, whether cultural, religious, social or industrial, in this State? Formerly, as I have said, there was a certain protection for every individual in this State, because the Executive power was divided among a number of organs or instruments who had to co-operate in order that the executive power could fully function. To-day all that has disappeared. All authority is concentrated in the Executive, and, as we here have witnessed from time to time, the Executive is no longer controlled by Parliament. The Executive is controlled elsewhere. I do not believe that it is even controlled by the Party.

The Executive of the present day—I speak without any particular or special reference to the Executive of this House—the Executives of most Party machines are controlled by big businesses, by proprietors of one or two companies, by newspapers, the syndicated Press, as Deputy Flinn called it, by Deputies who are not members of the Party proper, but whose votes are essential in order to give the Party a majority which keeps the Executive in office. We have had instances of the power of that majority in this House. We have seen a leading article, dictating a certain policy, appearing in the newspapers, and we have seen the Executive Council, pretending to speak in the name of the people and to act in the name of the people, meticulously follow the programme laid down in that newspaper, which, whatever else it was, never was a friend of the Irish people. The Executive, as we see it to-day, reminds me of one of these automatons, a mechanical chess-player which used to amuse the crowd, a doll which used to take little pieces and move them from square to square, appearing as if of its own initiative to pursue a well-defined plan, while all the time, concealed in the bowels of that effigy, was a hidden hand which moved the pieces and made the effigy posture to its will.

The parallel I have drawn is not complete, because the effigy only moved to amuse, and therefore, to that extent, possibly, was of benefit to the people, but the automaton Government, controlled by an interested section within the nation, may often operate, not to the amusement, but to the grave detriment and disadvantage of the people as a whole. Under the present system of degenerate Parliamentary Government there is, I repeat, no security for any individual who dares to oppose the interests, often the selfish and mercenary interests, of the section which, in reality, controls the Government of the day. At present, so far as we in this State are concerned, so far has Parliamentary Government degenerated that there is no single right of a citizen, whether of liberty honour, property or civic right, secured from the aggression of the Executive, if he dares to oppose it. I repeat, and I would ask Deputies to dwell upon it, that there is no single right of citizens, whether of liberty, property, or honour, that is secure against infringement or violation on the part of the Executive in pursuance of its personal or even mercenary advantage. That is a truth which I wish to urge on you.

That is an argument which I wish to adduce, in answer to the Minister for Justice, for the rejection of this Bill and for the retention of Article 47. That is the reason why Arthur Griffith placed it there, in order that a position which has come about in this State to-day by the failure to recognise the encroachment by the Executive Council on the liberty of the people, might not remain for ever unremedied—that the people, having awakened to their danger, might have at hand an instrument by which they could secure and work their salvation. I would like to try and put before you the consideration which I am about to capitulate in order to show you how difficult it often is for minorities to secure their rights, even with a majority thinking that they are acting fairly and not tyrannically. We, as a minority, operating in this House, when our forces are joined with the Labour Party, present a combination which is possibly the strongest which any Government could face and survive. Two or three votes more or less on some divisions which have taken place in this House, and the effect would be such that the Executive Council could hardly function. As I said before, we, the coalition of Fianna Fáil and Labour, present. I believe, the strongest effective minority that could be contemplated, but, as the experience of the last nine months has shown, not even a minority so strong and so constituted as that minority has been, has been able under the present Constitution——

On a point of order, lest confusion might arise in the public mind so far as use of the word "coalition" is concerned, I want it to be distinctly and definitely understood that there is no coalition between the Labour Party and the Fianna Fáil Party any more than there is between the Labour Party and the Cumann na nGaedheal Party. I wish to state that to remove any confusion that might be brought about in the public mind.

That is not a point of order.

I regret very much that I used the word "coalition." I do not see why there should not be coalition between those who proclaim they stand for a section of the people as the Labour Party do, and us, who proclaim we stand for the whole of the people irrespective of sectional or class interests. I do not see why there should be any objection to such a coalition, particularly in view of the fact that only 12 years ago we in Ireland saw a Labour leader coalesce with the leader of militant nationalism in order to secure the rights of his country. If Deputy Anthony or the new Labour Party which has forsaken Connolly——

The Deputy was more in order when he was illustrating the defects of Parliamentary government.

Was he in order in dealing with that point either?

The Ceann Comhairle ought to know.

We will forget Deputy Anthony; so will his constituents.

I unfortunately used the word coalition. I will say co-operation. I hope Deputy Anthony will not object to co-operating with us in doing good. I hope he does not object to my asking him to co-operate and to assist us in the fight for the preservation of the rights of the people.

The position of the Labour Party is that we are prepared to co-operate with any other Party in this House if it serves the good of the people of the country.

I was saying, A Chinn Comhairle, that even with the independent co-operation of the Labour Party—I must be very careful, I must have regard for the susceptibilities of Deputy Anthony even if that regard carries me so far as to make use of such an uncouth expression as independent co-operation—I hope the Dáil will realise that if the votes of the Deputies who sometimes follow Deputy O'Connell into one lobby are added to the votes of those who always follow Deputy de Valera into the same lobby, that we have the strongest combination of a Parliamentary minority that could be presented. Yet if such a combination as that, as the history of this session, the records and the experience of this session, have already shown, is powerless against the will of the Executive and that Executive is supported by the unreasoning votes of the majority in this House—if our position is so powerless, if our rights as a minority are so insecure, that after four hours' discussion in this House a Bill to amend the Constitution in a vital particular can be passed without any further debate under closure, that in order that physical fatigue may coerce us to yield the rights of the people when we can no longer resist the proposition to sit and discuss constitutional amendments from 4 o'clock in the afternoon until 8 o'clock the following morning, then I repeat, what hope is there? What hope is there in this country, under such an Executive, for any other minority, whether it represents wealth, religion, culture or social status, which dares to withstand the power of that Executive Council? What rights, under the present Constitution, have minorities at the present moment? They have no redress in the Seanad, because the Seanad is powerless against the will of the Executive, and ultimately powerless against the will of this House. Their only safeguard is a temporary one, that certain Bills, if they are not declared by both Houses to be necessary for the immediate preservation of the public peace, health, or safety, can be suspended for a period of ninety days, but if those minorities can get the signatures of 75,000 voters in this State under Article 48 to assist them in maintaining their rights they can initiate legislation to repeal the statutes which infringed upon their rights or which treated them unjustly. Under the operation of Article 48, that legislation is immediately referred to the people as a whole. In short, by the co-operation or by the co-ordinate operation, if you like, of Articles 47 and 48, there is given to any minority in this State or to any minority in this House— although the protection may not be the fullest, nevertheless it is within limits a reasonable protection and a reasonable safeguard—the power at least to refer the legislation in question to the whole people and to give the people—who, I think, are often moved when they are moved in the mass by a deeper sense of justice and of equity than the Executive of political parties, who are inclined to be guided by considerations of temporary party advantage—the liberty of exercising their veto, if they so desire, upon legislation which has been held to be unjust or oppressive upon any section of the people.

The Minister for Justice cited one or two instances of that. I do not know, possibly, one which would substantiate my case more fully than that which he referred to as one of the German experiments. As we are aware, two years ago, or possibly less, a proposal that the estates of certain ruling princes in Germany should be confiscated was initiated by a certain section of the people. One would think that that was a case where mass interest would overcome that sense of justice and right which I believe to be dominant in the majority of any right-thinking people. Possibly the estates in question had originally belonged to the people. Possibly some of them may have been confiscated in war. At any rate, one would say that the princes having been dethroned, and since they had been divested of all their executive functions within the State, the means which were given them formerly to maintain their position as heads of the State should now be surrendered to the people. A very strong case could have been made, and no doubt a very strong case was made, for confiscating the estates of these German princes. The matter was carried to the people and the great majority of the people took up the position that they did not feel competent to determine this matter in strict accordance with the law or with the fundamental justice of it. Therefore, they took up the position, which was taken up in this House on a previous occasion by the Ceann Comhairle, that they refused to disturb the status quo. I submit that the very fact that the great majority of the German people did that, in a matter where it might be held that their own selfish interests dictated that they should vote for the confiscation of these estates, is an instance which justifies the retention of Articles 47 and 48 in this Constitution.

That is the weakest yet.

We are speaking now as a minority in this House. We are speaking as a minority on behalf of a minority. I ask all those minority Parties, which now constitute the majority in this House—those minority Parties, whether they are independent or whether they are allied, whether they are independent or banded together— not to forget that they too are minorities, even though they be essential for the moment to President Cosgrave's majority, and that what we are demanding for ourselves we are demanding for them also. Further we ask them to remember that the Party upon whom it is now proposed to impose disabilities and whom it is now desired to deprive of their rights, will not always be the minority in this State.

These precedents which are now being set up are very valuable from another point of view. When I began I emphasised that throughout these debates we approach this question from two positions and in two minds. We approach it primarily as a Party which feels that the Constitution must be changed, as I said, not in its accidence, but in its essence. To maintain the rights of the people to determine their own destiny without let, hindrance or interference by any power, or any throne, or any monarch, except the power of the Irish people, expressed through their duly-elected representatives, and through the head of the State whom they choose for themselves, we who have accepted the constitutional way will be prepared, in order to assert that traditional principle of Irish nationality, if necessary, to take another course. We approach the question also from another point of view. We can take the materials which are to our hands in this Constitution. We might desire to amend it in another way within the Constitution by removing certain Articles from it. But I ask the people who are now going, by the removal of Articles 47 and 48 from this Constitution, to place the Executive in untrammeled and uncontrolled power within this State, to think of what the position will be if there should come into office, not as the result of the present situation, but as the result of the another election which may be precipiated, other people who, taking hold of and exercising that power which the House now proposes to concentrate, without question or without any possibility of revision or recall, in the hands of the Executive Council, may say: "Away with your Constitution; away with the rights of any citizen who dares to withstand the majority in this House; away with the rights of property; away with the rights of religion; away with the ordinary common rights of freemen.

Do not make our hair stand on end.

If I wanted to make your hair stand on end it is not words I would use.

You tried very hard.

A barber's comb.

I remember—I do not know whether I am entitled to remember it or not——

I am afraid the Deputy is not.

We could quote some of the Minister's own speeches and writings in "Irish Freedom."

We will let the Minister rest—we do not propose to make his hair stand on end. We will allow him, if he will permit us, to go home and sleep soundly in his bed tonight. We do not propose to cause him a single uneasy hour after 10.30 if he will enforce upon the President the reasonableness of the argument that men who want sleep cannot possibly discuss the Constitution of the State. I do not want to put anybody's hair on end. I want you to remember—I want particularly the Independents in this House to remember the old saw, and it is a good one: "What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander." The principles for which President Cosgrave and his allies stand will not always be dominant in this House. The one thing for which our history has been noted has been the resurgence of the national idea, and of the separatist idea, in Irish politics. Six years ago the Party led by Deputy de Valera, in elections within the Twenty-six Counties, only polled a little over 200,000 votes. In September last they polled 400,000, almost as many as President Cosgrave's Party. Inevitably and assuredly another power will come into this House, will sit on President Cosgrave's benches, and will avail themselves, I hope, to the fullest of the precedents which have now been created, so far as certain Articles of this particular Constitution are concerned. I hope, however, that when they do come, when things which are repugnant to Irish manhood, and are in contravention of the traditional principles of Irish nationality, have been removed from that Constitution, they will set themselves to reinsert within it the provisions and the Articles which Arthur Griffith and Michael Collins, I repeat again, and those who drafted this Constitution for them, inserted in it in order to protect the rights of minorities against the wrongful usurpation of power and authority by the Executive Council.

An altogether fantastic importance has been ascribed to Articles 47 and 48 of the Constitution. They are Articles which were very little discussed before the Constitution was first published. I have no recollection who was in favour of them. I do not know how the proposal for the Initiative and the Referendum originated. I do not know who suggested them. I know that not much importance, at any time, was attached to them. Attention was concentrated upon quite other Articles, and difficulties in connection with other Articles. When the Constitution was going through the Dáil the discussion that took place upon those two provisions was very little.

Various speakers have quoted remarks that the late Minister for Justice made in connection with these particular provisions. I know that the late Minister for Justice, a couple of years before there was any suggestion that the Fianna Fáil Party would come into this House, before there was any suggestion that a petition would be prepared by Fianna Fáil under Article 47, had come to the conclusion that these particular Articles and the powers contained in them should be removed from the Constitution. These Articles were introduced when we who stood for them—and that is saying a great deal— had even less experience and had given even less thought to the problems of government than the Deputies on the opposite Benches now have. We introduced these particular provisions without any great consideration, without having had experience which might show us what was necessary and what was workable in a constitution. After a certain amount of experience, we came to the conclusion that these Articles and other Articles were faddist schemes and the Constitution would be better without them.

We do not believe that these Articles give any security to the people, that they secure the people's rights, or that they are of any importance, as the Minister for Justice said, in a Constitution the principle of which is representative government.

The Referendum may be all very well for some small communities. A Referendum might be a very good means of deciding in a country town where and in what position the town pump should be placed, or on what day a market or a fair should be held, but it is certainly not suitable in a community of any size for deciding on any ordinary law. There might come an occasion when the Legislature would be specially desirous, on something of paramount importance, to consult the people, and the thing might be such that every citizen would have thought about it and become informed upon it, and it might be possible therefore for the people to decide. But ordinarily, people could not be informed of the merits of laws or the effect of laws, and the submission of matters to the people for decision by a Referendum in a community as numerous as the Irish Free State would be simply like bringing a proposal here to the Dáil and, without any discussion whatever, and without any attempt whatever to make Deputies familiar with its effects and provisions, to take a vote upon it and have it passed.

The people were deceived.

The people were not deceived. We made it quite clear that we regarded the Constitution as imperfect and as likely to require amendment by putting in a provision that for a stated period it might be amended by ordinary legislation. We were quite aware that we were tyros in this matter, that we had not thought about it sufficiently, and that on the whole the matter of constitutional requirements had not been sufficiently examined and that amendment was likely to be necessary. While on that particular point I might reply to what I think myself was the gist of the argument of Deputy de Valera that changes were now being made and that in a year or in a couple of years the provision enabling the Constitution to be amended by ordinary legislation would lapse and that the main procedure laid down in Article 50 would become operative, and that because of the rigidness of that procedure it would be impossible for a party which had a definite majority support in the country to amend the Constitution.

We do not believe that the procedure for amending the Constitution should be so rigid as that. We believe that the period during which the Constitution can be amended by ordinary legislation ought to be extended, and that, per- haps, even after whatever extended period might be fixed, some new procedure other than that laid down in the Constitution should be devised, some procedure that would make it easier to amend the Constitution than it would be if the main provision of Article 50 came into operation. We believe that if there is a majority, for instance, in this House desirous of amending the Constitution in a particular way, and if after a general election that same party came in with a majority, then there ought not to be obstacles in the way of that party effecting an amendment of the Constitution. We do not want a rigid Constitution which cannot be amended, though we think there are arguments in favour of having a procedure for amending the Constitution which makes it somewhat more difficult or at any rate requires greater space of time to elapse than the enactment of ordinary legislation. I have already dealt with the point of urgency. The action of Deputy de Valera in attempting to present a petition under Article 48 to this House makes it necessary to do something about it. I certainly hold it would be quite wrong, and quite unconstitutional in spirit, for us to refuse to receive a petition for whatever reason and let the matter rest.

What did you do?

It is obligatory on us when it is presented either to consider carefully and as quickly as possible the steps that will be taken to enable the petition to be presented in proper form and acted upon, or else it is obligatory to deal with the provision in the way provided in the Constitution.

That is not what the President said when he was bringing in the Initiative. When the Initiative was being discussed, he said: "It is mandatory as it stands; whenever a petition shall be presented signed by 100,000 voters on the Register." This was afterwards changed to 75,000; this one was signed by 96,000 voters——

It is open to us——

It is mandatory upon you according to the Constitution.

Do not interrupt us continually. It is open to us to amend the Constitution and to delete any Article. If the Article remains and is not deleted then provided the requirements of the Article in the Constitution are fulfilled it is obligatory upon us to act. I accept that entirely and I have no reason to depart from what I said at that particular time.

The Initiative really gives no powers to the people that they have not where you have a democratic system of election and a wide suffrage. If there is a democratic system of election, a proper arrangement of constituencies and a wide suffrage, then the people have all the powers that they would have under the Initiative. There is no use in suggesting that the Initiative or any of these schemes gives more protection to minorities. There is no protection for minorities, no ultimate protection, except the sense of fair play of the majority. If you have a majority which wants to persecute, then there will be persecution, unless there is a question of armed resistance, of course, and I am ruling that out for the moment.

The balance of power is a useful thing.

That is not advised as a parliamentary system.

It is working very well here, anyhow.

People with a democratic system of election have all the powers that they can have under the Initiative. Anything that can be done by the Initiative can be done through the election of representatives, and there are things which it would be against the public interest to do over the heads of elected representatives, supposing that the majority of the people could be got to do it. I take the particular thing that Deputy de Valera had in mind when he raised the question of the Initiative. I believe that if the people wanted to join issue on the question that is involved in the deletion of Article 17, it would be dangerous to put them in a position of joining issue while there was a majority in Parliament and an Executive supported by that majority which did not wish to join issue. If issue is to be joined on a thing like that, then the safety and the interests of the country demand that it shall be done when there is an Executive in power and when there is a majority in Parliament that wishes to join issue and to take every step that may be necessary to meet the situation that arises, with the full conviction that they are taking the right course.

It seems to me there is nothing to be said for the Initiative. It is not protection for minorities. It does nothing for the people that cannot be done in another way. In certain circumstances it might be dangerous. It is liable to be expensive and to disgust the people with elections. We know that very few Referenda would make the whole thing farcical. There would be a very small minority verdict. We might have things decided by what would be something like one-eight—a majority which would represent only one-eighth of the electors. People were influenced by talk about Switzerland, but that country, as the Minister for Justice has pointed out, has a different history, and its circumstances are entirely different, and power is distributed in a different way. We threw things into our Constitution which were unworkable and unsuitable to our conditions and which are really blemishes in our Constitution.

I would like to reply to one other point made by Deputy Aiken. We did not justify the steps that were taken in the Civil War by references to these particular Articles at all. They were done with reference to the whole principle of majority rule and the democratic system of which it has been pointed out this is no essential part.

You are saying that now.

Except we have a community of trivial size provisions like these are actually in their effect anti-democratic.

Why did you not say that then?

There was not a lot of attention paid to it then, whatever was said.

I feel glad that I have an opportunity of saying a few words on this subject before the third degree methods of the Government come into operation. In dealing with this particular matter in discussion it seems to me that the members of the Executive Council have spoken with divers tongues, and I have yet to find two of them who agree on essentials.

I remember hearing President Cosgrave making the statement that this was a sovereign assembly. I also remember that he told us that the Constitution was not imposed by force. Then again I have taken down the exact words of the Minister for Finance. He said: "It is open to us to delete any Article." Then, on the other hand, the President and, if I recollect rightly the Minister for Lands and Agriculture made the statement that we could change no Article of the Constitution the alteration of which was repugnant to the scheduled Treaty; that anything that could be construed as being opposed to the Treaty could not be permitted. I wonder how the President could make those statements coincide. On the one hand, we are told that we are a sovereign assembly, and, since the Constitution was not imposed by force, but was actually constructed as an instrument with our free will and of malice aforethought, that we can amend or delete any Article of that Constitution.

Will the Deputy deal with the Bill rather than the Constitution generally? The Constitution generally is not at issue.

This particular Article that, if the majority secures it, is about to be deleted comes under the heading of what I am talking about. That is, that we are told we can delete any Article of the Constitution. Then, again, we are told we cannot. How the President can reconcile those two statements beats me, because I cannot. I want to submit to the President that we have no power to delete Article 48 of the Constitution. The President mentioned that if there are certain things which would be repugnant to the scheduled Treaty, that those things cannot be done. That means to say— we will take it logically—that the Constitution in whole or in part was based on the Treaty, and, because it was based on the Treaty, there are certain provisions laid down by England whereby we cannot change a certain specified Article of the Constitution.

The Deputy has not convinced me yet that he is coming into order. I am anxious to give him every opportunity, but it seems to me that he is dealing with the general question.

I am dealing with the point that we are not empowered to abolish this Article of the Constitution, because the President has never proven to us what Articles of the Constitution can or cannot be deleted.

That is very skilful, but I am not accepting it. I could not accept it. If I did it would mean that every single Constitution Amendment Bill would lead to a discussion of the Constitution as a whole, and would lead to arguments that we could not do it.

We certainly cannot do it, because the President certainly has never outlined what can, or cannot, be changed. We will take an example——

The President cannot outline what can, or cannot, be changed. It is not the President's business. It is the business of the House to decide.

Very well; I am putting it up to the House to decide it.

On Article 47?

Yes, on this particular amendment. The President named one Article which could not be changed——

Was it Article 47?

No: Article 17; but I am naming two more, Articles 47 and 48, that cannot be changed ordinarily, and I think I have as much right to point out to the House what Articles should, or should not, be changed as the President has.

Hear, hear.

We are told that within the ambit of this Constitution we can proceed to our complete independence. We are told, again, that there are certain provisions laid down which cannot be changed, because of the dictation from England. But I say to the President that there comes dictation from Ireland not to change or delete Articles 47 or 48. The President talks of the sanctity of honouring our bond. Now where is the honour or sanctity in deleting the only Articles of the Constitution, probably, which give any power to the people? Why keep faith with people across the Channel who say, "There are certain Articles which cannot be deleted"? Why not keep faith with the Irish people and preserve the only Articles in the Constitution which give the minorities a certain amount of power?

If the President talks of the sanctity of honouring our bond in respect of the Treaty and in regard to our agreement with England, why not keep the agreement with the Irish people? It is very peculiar that anything that cannot be changed cannot be changed at the dictation of England, but there is no talk of honouring our bond to the Irish people. I am not going to be out of order in this. I merely mention this, that there are two Articles of the Treaty which were not honoured and the President is not honouring his bond when he comes in with ten constitutional amendments and in his ten minutes' speech hurls them at our heads here. I suggest to the President that his political honour in the words of Falstaff is a mere escutcheon—something to be brought out and paraded when there is any talk about honouring our bond with England. But the mere escutcheon is quietly pocketed when there is any talk of honouring our bond with the Irish people. This Article of the Constitution, namely Article 48, was inserted there with a certain purpose in view, after, I presume, calm, cool, deliberate thought, although the Minister for Finance tells us now that it was not considered at all, or that at least it was not considered very much. He says now that "we consider them faddist schemes." It is wonderful how they included these faddist schemes in this Constitution that we were told for the last two or three years could not be changed by one iota. Now it can be changed in ten minutes if the President had his way.

In speaking on this subject the President adopted an attitude that he adopted when he was speaking on the Initiative, at least on the petition, that time he donned the cap and bells and gave us a flippant speech, a speech that was very hard to understand until one came to know the gist of it, and until one could regard it with a certain sense of humour because his attitude on this matter of amending or deleting Articles of the Constitution is worthy of the best efforts of Gilbert and Sullivan. In order to keep a certain Article of the Constitution there at the dictation of another country the President is going to wipe out at least two Articles and amend several others. He comes along and breaks a lance on the Constitution and incidentally he breaks the Constitution in ten different pieces; and then, of course, the Minister for Finance or some other Minister will come along like the faithful Sancho Panza and try to patch it up again, sticking the pieces together. If another country can dictate to us what Articles should or should not be deleted or amended, then there is no justification whatsoever for the President to call this a Sovereign Assembly, although, mind you, it is the best description of this Assembly I have yet heard——

The Deputy will want to beware. I think the Deputy is completely out of order; on this general question he has made a few remarks, not very many on Articles 47 and 48, but his principal remarks deal with other Articles, not Article 47 or Article 48 at all, and I want to call his attention and the attention of the House to that.

I was just going to point out that it was a good description, because the Sovereign Assembly has the harp on one side and the King's head on the other side. The President may at least consider for a moment the fact that when we acted in accordance with that Article 48 we went to a lot of trouble, and got almost 100,000 voters from the highways and byeways to sign a certain petition, and now after all that the President comes along with his ten commandments, one of which is to abolish Article 48 altogether. The President might have considered all the trouble that was gone to——

He might have considered all the expense that was gone to in order to try and to act in conformity with that Article of the Constitution which he now proposes to delete. He might also think of honouring his bond to the Irish people, and that in this Article, which gives the minority power to do certain things in regard to the Constitution, he might consider those people, and their rights as well as he considers the rights of England when they imposed certain restrictions on us in our actions towards the amendment of the Constitution. He should think of all these things, and when he has thought them out if he can say further that we can change or amend any Article of the Constitution, and if he can also say in the same breath that we cannot amend certain Articles in the Constitution, because the changing of them would be repugnant to the Scheduled Treaty, then the President will have done something that I consider it impossible to expect of the President, that is, to reconcile two totally different and opposite statements and make them coincide.

I will now put the amendment. The debate has proceeded on the Bill and on the amendments. I am proposing to put the amendment and to leave the main question for the decision of the House.

I had no idea that the debate was going to conclude on the amendment, because it was within three minutes of the time for Private Members' business.

I am proposing to put the amendment only.

Will that prevent one speaking to the main question?

No. I am leaving the main question open.

Is the debate on the amendment being closured?

No. I am proposing to put the amendment and to leave the main question open.

That means that you are closuring the amendment.

No. No one rose to speak on the amendment.

Deputy Little rose to speak.

Owing to the fact that it was just time for Private Members' business I was perfectly certain that Deputy Carney would have gone on for the next two or three minutes until nine o'clock. As I wanted to say something on the Private Members' Bill I had devoted my attention to that, but I had also prepared to speak on the amendment.

I am only suggesting that the amendment should be now put. There is no question of closure at all. The main question will still remain open. The discussion has proceeded on the main question and the amendment together, and if the debate is to conclude it may conclude on both questions together.

It might conclude in this way, that I would ask to be heard on the amendment, and that then the question might be put. If there be accommodation on the other two Bills I have no objection in the world to having a very full discussion on this.

Would that be wasting time?

Not at all. If no time is being wasted I am perfectly satisfied to listen to it, but I do not think it is necessary to persuade even Deputy Boland that a good deal of time that could have been saved last week was wasted.

The debate is being conducted in a wholly different atmosphere to-day, and that is why I am now proposing to put the amendment.

Mr. BOLAND

Due to the fact that members on the opposite benches took part in the debate to-day.

I want Deputies to be clear about this. The Chair is given certain duties under Standing Order 52. On an amendment, when a motion for the closure is moved on the Second Reading of a Bill and the debate has proceeded in this particular fashion, if the Ceann Comhairle makes up his mind to accept the motion of the closure, and if that motion is put and carried the amendment is then put. If the claim is made that the main question should then be put, that normally would be accepted. I am not talking now of this particular Bill. But as a general rule that would have the effect of preventing, for example, a Deputy whom his own Party might be very anxious to have speak on the main question from speaking on it if he had already spoken on the amendment. I am suggesting now to put the amendment and to leave the main question open. On the main question the Opposition Party will be able to choose any member they like to speak even though he has spoken on the amendment.

There is no guarantee that immediately after the amendment is passed there may not be a motion "that the main question be now put."

If the Chair puts the amendment on the understanding that the main question is to remain open it would be impossible for the Chair to accept such a motion until at all events a certain period had elapsed.

If we get a guarantee from the Chair that the closure will not be put on the discussion of the main question we are prepared to have the amendment put now.

It is scarcely fair to put it that way.

The Chair could not give that guarantee.

If there is accommodation on this I am prepared not precipitately to move the closure and to give reasonable time.

What would the President say is a reasonable time?

We have already had five hours' discussion on this and I would say that another hour and a half ought to finish it. If a longer period than that be desired I would be prepared to grant it on the guarantee that I get accommodation in respect to the other Bills.

Perhaps I might make a suggestion to the President that would save a good deal of the time of the House. I listened rather carefully to a remark made by the Minister for Finance with respect to Article 50. I would suggest that if there is anything behind that except window-dressing, and if it was seriously intended, and if the President puts on to this set of Bills a Bill indicating what their attitude is in respect to Article 50, and put what the Minister for Finance said in black and white so that we may see it in the form of a Bill, and feel that we are not throwing out certain safeguards without any corresponding thing coming back, then our attitude might be very different.

Is it necessary? After all, the reputation of governments the world over depends on the undertakings they give being carried out. In the first place, I can tell the House that it is now two years since a Committee of the Cabinet considered the Constitution. Their recommendations consisted of quite a number of variations of the Constitution, amongst them Articles 47, 48 and 50. The difficulty with regard to Article 50 is what was mentioned by the Minister for Finance, that is the question of the best machinery to adopt in lieu of the arrangement which is in the Article, that is whether it should stand for five years or for eight years. There were two proposals under consideration. One was to give an extension of say three or four years, and the other was what the Minister said, which in effect meant that in the event of an amendment of the Constitution being passed in one Parliament and a general election taking place that if the next. Parliament passed the same amendment that would be an amendment of the Constitution. We quite realise the difficulties of getting a majority of the electorate, which is the form in the Constitution at the moment, for getting an alteration of the Constitution in the period of eight years. That is one of those matters which so far as putting it down in black and white is concerned does not lend itself so easily to being done at the tail-end of the session. As to the guarantee I unquestionably give the guarantee that it is our intention within a two-year period to extend or amend at any rate that Article of the Constitution, which will not make it necessary for a majority Referendum to take place in order to effect an amendment of the Constitution.

You may amend it for the better or the worse. We are particularly anxious to see in black and white what the proposed amendment would be. At this stage we cannot diminish our opposition to any of these Bills on a guarantee of that kind when we do not know the exact terms. You can very easily replace the Referendum by something which, from our point of view, would be very much worse, and from the point of view of giving the people sovereign rights.

I can say that it would be our intention to amend Article 50 of the Constitution in a not less favourable aspect than one of these two, that is, we would extend the period for amendment of the Constitution by five years, or, alternatively to that, amend it in the sense I have indicated, that is, an amendment of the Constitution passed in one Parliament would stand over for passage by the next Parliament.

Who is to judge? Your idea of what is democratic is apparently very different from ours. We have heard people just now contending that we should not leave people to decide major issues. Apart from other matters it would not be in the interests of the people. We hold that it would and, therefore, there would be no judge ultimately of what is more or what is less favourable. We want to judge that matter for ourselves. The only way in which we can really judge in this case is to have a Bill, and according to the President's own admission the Cabinet Committee considered this matter two years ago, and from the statement which he has made, that they have their minds well clarified in the matter, surely it should be within their power, even in the time that would be occupied here talking overnight, to prepare a Bill embodying what the President has outlined?

As regards the two suggestions that I have made, to which does the Deputy refer?

Until I see them in black and white I am not going to express any preference.

That is our objection to bringing forward any recommendation. We do not wish to have a second alteration to the Constitution in that respect. The Committee reported on the matter two years ago, but we have been interrupted by matters during the last twelve months so that we had not time to consider these.

We will be prepared to discuss the Bill and indicate clearly our attitude on it the moment we see it in black and white. The whole discussion here indicates that we were right in our contention that the Constitution as a whole ought to have been dealt with. It would have meant probably very much more rapid progress than is being made at present.

We are considering that question also.

Why not let us have the whole lot and save time?

I suggest that I be allowed to move the adjournment of this debate.

Am I to take it then the suggestion that the amendment be put is not accepted?

On that matter I indicated that if we got a guarantee that the question of the closure is not moved until what would ordinarily be regarded as a reasonable time in a debate of this magnitude we are prepared to have the amendment put now, that is amendment number 3 in my name.

I am not able to give any guarantee as regards the question of closure. The question of what is a reasonable time depends upon what individuals think. All the Chair is asked to do on a particular occasion is to say that the debate has so far progressed that the time has arrived when the House itself might be asked to decide whether the debate should conclude on the particular matter before it. The decision is taken by the Chair under the provisions of the Standing Orders and the Chair, of course, has not power to prevent anyone asking for the closure. The Chair need not put the closure question unless it is satisfied that in view of the Standing Order it is proper to allow the House to come to a decision. As to what Deputy de Valera says about a reasonable time, I do not know what time he means. It would be impossible for the Chair to say that the closure would not be accepted at a particular moment, but if the amendment were now put and the public business resumed the Ceann Comhairle would not accept a motion at once for the closure on the main question. The Chair might perhaps do that after two or three speeches had been made. The particular tone here this evening is such that I would prefer if the matter could be decided without that provision.

I move "That Private Deputies' business be now taken." This other question can be re-opened afterwards.

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