VOTE No. 28. - PRIOMH-SCOILEANNA AGUS COLAISTI. UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGES. – Dáil Éireann (6th Dáil) – Thursday, 8 Nov 1928

VOTE No. 28. - PRIOMH-SCOILEANNA AGUS COLAISTI. UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGES.

MINISTER for FINANCE (Mr. Blythe)

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £37,500 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1929, chun Deontaisí i gCabhair do Chostaisí Fundúireachtaí Príomh-Scoile, maraon le Deontaisí fén Irish Universities Act, 1908, fén Acht Talmhan, 1923, agus fén Acht um Oideachas Phríomh-Scoile (Talmhaíocht agus Eolaíocht Déiríochta), 1926.

That a sum not exceeding £37,500 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1929, for Grants-in-Aid of the Expenses of University institutions, including grants under the Irish Universities Act, 1908, the Land Act, 1923, and the University Education (Agriculture and Dairy Science), Act, 1926.

The amount provided in this Vote is the same as last year. All the grants are statutory, with the exception of a sum shown under sub-head B, a grant of £16,000 to the University College, Galway. When the increased grants were fixed for the other colleges, Dublin and Cork, a decision had not been come to in regard to Galway, and it was not included in the Act of 1926. A Bill is in course of preparation, and I think it will be introduced very shortly, which will add the £16,000 shown under sub-head B to the £12,000 shown under sub-head A.

PRIONNSIAS O FATHAIGH

Máidir leis an meastachán so, níl mórán agam le rá. Tar éis a thuit amach annseo aréir, nuair a bhí Bille na nDligheadóirí fá díosbóireacht, is dócha go mbeidh áthas ar fhurmhór na dTeachtaí go bhfuil £16,000 ag dul do Choláiste na Gaillimhe chun an Ollscoil sin do ghaolú. Tá súil agam go mbeidh tuarasgabháil ar fáil ag na Teachtaí, anois agus arís, chun a theasbáint dúinn conus mar atá an scéim sin ag dul ar aghaidh.

Máidir le Coláistí eile na hOllscoile, níor chualamar ón Aire go bhfuil aon fheabhas tagaithe ar Choláiste na h-Ollscoile i mBaile Atha Claith mar gheall ar an nGaedhilg. Ní dó liom go bhfuil aon dul ar aghaidh san gColáiste sin o cuireadh iachall ar na macaibh léighinn Gaedhilg a bheith acu chun dul isteach. Ba chóir dul ar aghaidh a bheith ann agus is mithid don Choláiste céim ar aghaidh do thabhairt.

Chím go bhfuil cúrsaí curadóireachta i gceist. Baineann sin le gnáth-shaol na ndaoine agus ba chóir Gaedhilg a bheith sna cúrsaí sin. Níl aon mhaith Gaedhilg a bheith ag na dligheadóirí agus ag na daoine léigheannta muna mbaintear úsáid aisti i gnáth-oibre na ndaoine. Ba chóir do'n Aire féachaint chuige go mbeadh níos mó Gaedhilge sna léigheachtaí sna hOllscoileanna agus go hairithe 'san chúrsa san.

Tá roinnt beag airgid ag dul go Coláiste na Tríonóide fá'n meastachán seo. Creidim go bhfuil feabhas ag teacht ar an gColáiste sin, mar gheall ar an Ghaedhilg, le roinnt blian anuas. Tá súil agam go bhféicfimíd feabhas mór ann laistigh de bhliain. Tá súil agam go dtuigfidh lucht an Choláiste sin gur mian leis an Dáil Gaedhilg do chur chun cinn agus go ndéanfaidh siad beart dá réir, i dtreo nach mbeidh gá le Bille do thabhairt isteach mar a rinneadh i gcás na ndligheadóirí.

TOMAS O DEIRG

Aontuím leis an méid adhbhairt Proinnsias O Fathaigh, Teachta—go mba cheart do'n Aire féachaint chuige go ndéanfadh Coláistí na hOllscoile níos mó ar son na Gaedhilge. Má tá sprid Gaedhealach le bheith ionnta is éigin do na daoine lasmuich dul isteach agus cumainn Ghaedhealacha do chur ar bun. Ní do liom go bhfuil mórán deifíochta idir Ollscoil amháin agus Ollscoil eile.

I would like to ask the Minister to give us some information with regard to the progress of the dairying scheme in University College, Cork, and if he could say whether any arrangements have been made to give scholarships or grants in regard to research work to students; for example, students in agricultural schools throughout the Free State who would be inclined to go on for higher agricultural work. What exactly is being done to enable the agricultural industry to have competent, highly-trained workers at its disposal? I think that that is a very important matter. At present we know very little about what is actually being done, and if the Minister could let us know it would be useful.

Mr. HOGAN

Deputy Derrig wants to know what progress is being made in connection with the organisation of the faculty of Dairy Science in Cork. Considerable progress has been made. About two years ago, when we were instituting that faculty, we were in consultation with the people concerned in University College, Cork, and I think the sum of money that appeared on the Estimates was a sum that was agreed on at the time with these people as sufficient to cover all the capital expenses, which were very considerable, and also the actual expenditure for the purpose of paying professors and for the purpose of providing scholarships, and providing equipment for the institute. Having voted that money, which was an agreed sum, it was then for University College, Cork, to proceed with the work, but they found unexpected difficulties. That, of course, is nothing to their discredit. It was a very big proposition. It entailed the establishment of a creamery within easy reach of the College, and not only the establishment of a creamery but also the necessary laboratories, class halls, and so on.

When they began to consider where they should establish the creamery, and where they should establish the laboratories, of course they had to keep in mind that these various buildings should be quite close to University College, because it would be necessary to take pupils from the College to the laboratories and from the laboratories to the College on the same day, and then within an hour's time to the creamery. That presented legal difficulties. Certain people who owned house property near the University came to the conclusion that a creamery was not exactly the sort of thing that would appreciate the value of house property or the value of land in the neighbourhood, and there were certain legal complications; in fact, legal actions were threatened, and the whole thing had to be revised. The University was not particularly anxious to get into litigation, especially on the question of what was or what was not a nuisance. That is rather an abstruse question, and it would depend to a great extent on the aesthetic sense of the particular jurors who would hear the case.

It was decided that they would change their plans and that they would endeavour to build a creamery within the college grounds. That raised new difficulties. University College, Cork, is one of the finest buildings of its kind in this country, or perhaps in England, Ireland and Scotland. It is a very handsome building, and it is a very fine University from that point of view. They put it to us, and quite rightly, that if these buildings had to be erected within the grounds of the University, they should be in keeping with its general architecture, and, strange to say, we agreed to that. But it took some time before we agreed, because it meant considerably more money. In any case, negotiations went on between ourselves and University College, Cork, and we altered the estimates, notwithstanding that we had agreed in the beginning with the sum that was agreed by the College as the amount that was necessary to cover all the expenses of establishing a dairy institute, of paying the capital expenditure for such an institute, and also paying the annual expenditure. Notwithstanding that that sum was agreed to by the College, we expressed our willingness to reconsider the question, and the College put up new estimates for new types of buildings, and finally some months ago—I forget how many; Deputy Anthony will probably be able to enlighten me on that point—we agreed as to the final figure, and the buildings are now going ahead. Of course, the creamery has not been built, and the new class halls have not been built. That is a matter entirely for the College. They have got the money, they have a contract signed, the contractors are, I think, actually working, and there is nothing to prevent them, and in fact nothing is preventing them, from going ahead with the building.

Meantime they have appointed three of four professors, I think, and when I say "I think," I mean that I am not sure whether they have appointed three or four. They have appointed a Professor of Bacteriology and some other professors, and they have facilities; they have a farm which they bought with the money which was voted, and they are, in fact, going ahead and providing lectures for the course in Dairy Science. I think the Deputy was specially interested in the scholarships that are being given there. I am not in a position to say offhand what scholarships are being given. There is a number——

Mr. DERRIG

All I want to get is a general idea as to how exactly the Minister proposes to recruit students, and what types the students will be. Will they be farmers' sons, or will they come from the agricultural schools?

Mr. HOGAN

Of course that is a very big question. It does not matter what idea I have on that matter, or what idea anyone in the Government has on that matter, because it is a matter entirely for University College, Cork, and there is, in my opinion, the sound point of view that the University should be self-governing. But I do happen to know the intentions of the University. Deputies will have to remember that this is a University institution. There is an agricultural faculty there, it is true, but the fact that it is merely an agricultural faculty should not lead any Deputy to the view that that faculty is any less dignified or any less important than any other faculty in University College, Cork.

Mr. DERRIG

Might I ask the Minister how he interprets that from what I have said? I did not suggest for a moment that the Minister should dictate to the University what their curricula should be; but it is well known that in regard to their scholarships county councils have had to have special examinations to enable scholars from the national schools to have a lower standard of examination for them to pass into the University. That is a matter that the University may have to make special arrangements for.

Mr. HOGAN

I did not mean for a moment that the Deputy suggested that the faculty should be any less dignified or any less important than any other faculty in the University, but undoubtedly the sort of question that the Deputy asked does contain that implication, because he asked what arrangements are being made to see that very special terms shall be made for agricultural students entering the University. That is what it comes to. My first answer to that is that an agricultural student should not be allowed to go into the University on any easier terms than a medical student or a law student, and if he does it means that he enters with a poorer education. If he does enter with a poorer education than the Arts, the medical or the law student, the faculty becomes a second or a third-rate faculty. I merely say that in order to show that it is not quite easy to square two propositions—one an agricultural faculty, giving a first-class education to students, and the other catering for what the Deputy calls the small farmer's or the poor man's, son. The agricultural student who enters Cork University must have as high a standard of education as the medical or any other student, and if he does not have that he should not be allowed to enter.

The place for a boy who has left the national school and who has got no other education is Clonakilty, Athenry or Ballyhaise. He will never have sufficient education to get a degree that is worth anything in agriculture, that is to say, unless he improves his education and brings it up to the matriculation standard. But the boy who leaves a national school in the sixth or seventh class, or whatever the last class is, is not fit for a university; he is wasting his time in a university, and the university is wasting its time in trying to teach him. He should go to Ballyhaise, or some of the other colleges. The man who goes to University College, Cork, with the intention of taking a degree in agriculture, should be up to the matriculation standard, and that is the point of view in University College. On the other hand, where you have boys up to that standard, they are provided with scholarships by the county councils to enable them to enter. We talk a great deal about education in this country; we profess to have a great respect for education, and set a great value on it. I have not the exact figures before me, but I believe the various county councils have provided agricultural scholarships at the expense of the ratepayers, and they have not been able to get students to take them up. I know for certain that county councils have provided scholarships to enable boys to go into Athenry or Clonakilty and they have not been able to get students to take them up.

That is the position, and, of course, when you ask the reason why, you get a great many people to say: "Well, people do not think much about the sort of agricultural education you get in these colleges." That does not carry any conviction with me. I do not believe that the parents of these students sit down to think out what they would regard as an efficient or proper system of education for their children. I do not believe that they have any educational theories at all. I do not believe that they are in a position to compare one system with another. I believe that they do not think an agricultural education is worth very much. But with the point of view that it is essential to cater for the poor man's son and to provide scholarships to enable him to go either to a secondary school like Clonakilty, or a university like Cork, you have to remember that in this country there have been for the last four or five years scholarships made available out of the rates by county councils, that in a great many counties there are not sufficient students to take them up and that in other counties they have depressed the standard to a level which is very much below the standard which should be set.

Mr. DERRIG

I would like to say in reply to the Minister that perhaps some of the blame that he attaches to the county councils devolves on the secondary schools. So long as you have secondary schools which never teach agriculture, or give a rural bias to their work, you will never have students anxious to go in for the agricultural faculty.

Mr. HOGAN

The Deputy is entirely wrong. If he will turn to page 206 of the Estimates, Sub-head F2—"Grant to Private Agricultural Schools"—he will see Mountbellew Agricultural College, Warrenstown, Copsewood, Portumna, Clifden, Swinford, Claremorris, Loughglynn, Dunmanway, Drishane, Killeshandra, Ardagh and Ramsgrange. Students in all these places get a fair secondary education, sufficient, I think, to enable them to reach the matriculation standard.

Mr. DERRIG

I do not think they are able to compete with students from secondary schools which concentrate on scholarship work and specialise in it. It is obvious that if they give a certain amount of time to ordinary agricultural work they cannot compete with students who give their whole time, and are specially equipped in the cities to go in for scholarships.

Mr. HOGAN

I thought the Deputy's point was that there were no secondary schools in the country to give a good general education and at the same time give an agricultural bias to the students.

Mr. DERRIG

I meant by a secondary school a school that trains students for intermediate examinations, and I have never heard that these agricultural schools bring their students up to the matriculation standard. I understood they concentrate solely on agricultural subjects.

Mr. HOGAN

This is not a question of giving an Intermediate education; it is a question of giving them a general education to enable them to pass matriculation, and, so far as a pass in Mountbellew or Copsewood is concerned, these are the only boys that could enter for agricultural scholarships. They are competing with boys from other schools. You have nine or ten schools financed by the State at a cost of £10,000 each year, and, in addition, they have the advantage that they are run by Orders of some kind or another, who have unpaid teachers and who can do things extremely economically. Nevertheless the fact remains that these secondary schools are quite competent to give the boys an education sufficient to enable them to pass matriculation, and you have the national schools qualified to give boys a general education to get a scholarship for entrance to schools like Athenry. Nevertheless these scholarships are not fully availed of. In any event you cannot allow a student into a university who has not a sufficiently high standard of education. He must be able to avail of the university education. If you did otherwise you simply depress your university to the standard of a secondary school.

Mr. DERRIG

I only want to say in conclusion that if University College, Cork, in collaboration with the secondary schools, is providing a good system of scholarships I admit that not very much more could be done.

Mr. FAHY

There was one point of view I would like to put to the Minister. It has been represented to me that in some counties at any rate it would be better if there were fewer scholarships to the university, and if the value of them were raised, because the grant given is not sufficient to enable these students to live in Dublin, Cork or Galway, wherever the scholarships are to be held. Perhaps the same thing would apply to the secondary scholarships. I have known cases in which those who were awarded scholarships were loth to take them up for the reason that the grants were not sufficient without being subsidised from home, and that the parents were not in a position so to subsidise the grants.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I think there is a great deal in what the Deputy says. From the University point of view the University would be better pleased to have a fewer number of students and give that smaller number scholarships definitely in accordance with the newer cost of living in Dublin or Cork. It is a matter for the county councils. I think that unofficial representations have been made to the county councils from time to time that a scholarship is not sufficient to keep a student in the University unless there is a big subvention from home. Sometimes these subventions come and sometimes they do not. It has been found that students dropped out midway in their courses, not through any fault of their own or owing to failure to pass examinations, but because their parents cannot afford to keep them in the University. It is a matter for the county councils.

Mr. MOORE

I think the Minister for Agriculture left off at the really interesting point, with regard to the Dairy Institute at Cork. I think he was going to describe what its probable work would be. What is the Dairy Institute intended to do? Will it be merely an off-shoot of a creamery to test and analyse butter and things like that or is it intended to start a dairy farm? Is it intended to do such things as to experiment as to the best type of dairy cow, as to the question as to whether there can be a dual purposes cow, for instance, and the difference between the different breeds? Is that part of the work, or is it what I might call indoor work?

Mr. ANTHONY

I want to pay at least this tribute to the Minister for Agriculture and to the Department generally, so far as the initiation of this faculty of agriculture is concerned. It is certainly the most constructive work that the Minister has engaged in. If I interpreted Deputy Derrig correctly, he suggested that the standard of examination for students for the faculty of agriculture was rather high. Well, if I interpret the intention of the Minister rightly, it is to attract to the faculty the best teachers or professors that can be had in this country or outside it, and, secondly, to attract the best type of student to those classes. I think we have heard a good deal here from time to time of the position of agriculture in this so-called agricultural country. I said a moment ago that this was the best piece of constructive work that the Minister had engaged in; I said that in view of the manner in which for many years as we know agriculture to be conducted. Most of you are aware of the fact that nearly in seventy-five per cent. of cases that have come under our notice from time to time you have a family consisting, let us say, of two or three sons, and the custom has been, in the case of a farmer who can afford it, to send away one or two of those sons to a University, or to send them to a secondary school where they might qualify for a position in the Civil Service, or at least for a commercial position. The eldest son, as we know the system which obtains at present in this country, is kept at home and gets little or no education.

Let us assume the sons are A. B, C. B and C are sent to college. One of them, we will say, is made a clergyman, and the second is qualified as a doctor. A, the eldest son is kept on the farm and gets little or no education at all. And then we talk about the decay of agriculture. All the time remember that the costs of making the doctor and the costs of making the priest or parson had to be paid out of the land. And yet the producer on the land, who was the eldest son, was neglected in his education. These are the facts of which most of you are aware. You have in most of those families a priest or doctor, and the eldest son who succeeded to the farm out of which the money came to make a priest or doctor is neglected in his education. This is an attempt on the part of the Minister for Agriculture to remedy that state of affairs, and, in my view, and in the view of any person who has given any thought at all to the matter, it is one of the best means by which you can raise the status of the agriculturist in this country. We are told frequently that agriculture is our main industry. I do not know that that is quite true.

Recent publications of figures, at any rate, issued through our Statistical Department, do not corroborate that view. We have a lot of land lying idle. We have much of the capable brains and intellect of the country turned into other pursuits—to trade and commerce. But here you have an attempt made to raise the status of the agriculturalist and to encourage the budding agriculturalist, who is to study in Cork University College, to look upon his profession of agriculture in the same way as his brothers might look upon the profession of the Church or medicine. I had intercourse not so long ago with numbers of farmers from various parts of the world. I met there Swedes, Norwegians, Danes, Germans and other nationalities at the World's Congress of Farmers. I was lucky enough to meet some of them and to discuss with them agricultural conditions in their countries, and I was certainly surprised, but agreeably surprised, to find that agriculture in the countries I have mentioned is looked upon as one of the best and noblest of the professions. Here in this country, where there is so much make believe, the agriculturalist is looked down upon by his brother the clergyman or his brother the doctor. There is no gainsaying that. This is an attempt, and I welcome this attempt on the part of the Minister to raise the status of the agriculturalist. Any expenditure consistent with our revenue, and I say that now as a townsman, will be well spent on a Vote of this kind. In so far as the faculty is concerned in Cork, I am glad to say that the building is proceeding. I can corroborate the Minister when he says there was a demand and a right demand from the professors of the University College in Cork, and a demand that was voiced by nearly every citizen of Cork who has any civic spirit at all, that the new building should conform as far as possible, in character and design, etc., with the existing handsome University building there.

There was a difficulty, but that difficulty has been got over due to the business capacity, ability and, perhaps, a little generosity on the part of the Minister for Agriculture. I believe that we will have one of the finest agricultural buildings there not alone in Ireland, but in Europe. I understand it is the intention to get some of the very best professors of agriculture in Europe to teach in that University. If that intention is realised, I believe that this will prove to be the best thing that was ever done in this country so far as agriculture is concerned. Agriculture, we are taught to believe, is our main industry, though I do not fall in with that belief.

Mr. CORRY

I would like that the Minister would inform us how many of those University farmers will go back to the farm when their course is finished in the University, and how many of them will be turned into another kind of parasite to live on the farmer in addition to those gentlemen who are made priests and doctors. How many more parasites of this class are we going to have, with agricultural instructors on top of them? I would like to get an explanation as to the percentage of those University-trained farmers who go back to the farm, and how many of them are turned out in the shape of additional parasites to live on the unfortunate farmer? What is going to become of the farmer who has to pay for all these?

Mr. LITTLE

I want to congratulate Deputy Anthony on his agricultural or, I should say, horticultural skill and in the way in which he has been able to produce bouquets to throw at the Government. The Deputy answered the question why the farmer is looked down upon. I would say that the answer to the question why the farmer is looked down upon is simply because he cannot make money. I got up to ask the Government a question, not in a hostile spirit, but to know if any attempt is being made between the Government and the University authorities at present to attract the brains of the younger generation into becoming technical experts and builders-up of industries in this country? One of the great difficulties at present is the lack of real technical experts for the purpose of building up new industries. There is also another thing that is very much needed in the country, and that is the turning out of men trained with a view to building up a proper system of banking. The country would benefit by technical experts on the side of credit. I would like to have an answer to that, if possible.

Mr. GOULDING

To a great extent I must say that I agree with Deputy Anthony. I have some experience of county council scholarships, and I think if one examines the list of students who have gone through a university course and taken out degrees in medicine one will find that the majority of them go abroad. It is bad enough to have to export our people, but it is infinitely worse to put the ratepayers' money to the expense of giving them a highly specialised education and then to see them giving their services to a foreign country. I think you might take it that this would be typical, one university class of thirteen medical students, eleven of them are gone out to practice in England and only two remaining in the country. There is no doubt at all about it, as Deputy Anthony has pointed out, the farmer member of the family is in this country considered socially inferior to his brother the doctor or his brother the priest or lawyer. That should not be so. Every effort should be made in this country to put the man who is producing all the wealth on a good social level and every effort should be made to give him as good an education as is given to any of the professional men. If there is one type we want in this country it is captains of industry. We have been turning out for years parasites to live on the wealth produced practically by one section of the people, and then you have the position that the men who live on this wealth look down on the men who are producing it. If we want to go ahead in this country we must alter all that. It would be well if the county councils of the Saorstát would follow the lead given by the Waterford County Council, who, when giving out scholarships, refuse to give any scholarships in medicine. Of course, it is not a good thing to say that we should not have doctors in the country, but then we should not have too many doctors nor too many lawyers.

Mr. ALTON

You have done your best to diminish their numbers.

Mr. GOULDING

It is desirable that a scholarship should be given in aid of our dominant industry. Every help should be given to the farmers.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

In my opinion this debate is getting on to the dangerous line. What is really now being discussed is that a direction should be given to autonomous universities and university colleges as to how they are to develop their Faculties. Deputy Goulding has spoken of attracting people to the universities by means of scholarships. No question of scholarships arises in the Vote. That is really a matter for the country councils or whatever other outside bodies interest themselves in scholarships. Unless the Deputy actually suggests that there should be a quota of students for admission to the universities, say a quota of students for clerical studies, a quota for the study of medicine, etc., I do not see what the relevance of his argument is. I suggest to Deputies that not without great deliberation should they enter on a course of debate which would seem to be leading to a direction to the universities in the country as to how best their Faculties should be organised. I think Deputies should be content to leave those matters to the best traditions of the universities, and I believe that the freer they are to develop along the lines that they consider best the better will be the system of education. The universities certainly ought not to be directed by any debate in this House as to how they should spend the moneys given to them. That attitude ought not to be adopted unless it is proved that the system of autonomy in the universities is shown to be a failure.

Mr. LITTLE

I do not think that statement quite meets the spirit of my question.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

The Deputy asked about technical matters. Well, there are Faculties of Commerce in all the university colleges, or at least in most of them. Students are getting whatever academic training can be given in that line. This matter of technical education in the lower grades can easily be raised on the technical education Vote. As to how the universities should direct themselves to the new tendency in the country, and as to how they are to meet the needs which we all hope will be increasingly apparent for people with industrial capacity, those are matters that may safely be left to the governing authorities of the universities. Deputies may rest assured that the university authorities can see the tendency of the country just as well as everybody else. I think the question raised by Deputy Little will be answered when I say that nearly all the universities have Faculties of Commerce. Deputy Little spoke particularly of the industrial side. The universities have Faculties pertaining to what the Deputy has in mind. They may not be able to do a great deal in the direction indicated. Students themselves or their parents will best be able to realise what their chances or their prospects will be, and what vocation is best suited to them. The universities can be depended upon for making arrangements, and how far these arrangements will be availed of depends upon the people.

Mr. CORRY

Can the Minister say what percentage of the students will find their way back to the farm?

Mr. LITTLE

Suppose the Minister for Industry and Commerce has in mind certain industries in this country that could be developed, it surely would not interfere with the academic field to enter into correspondence, or discuss the matter with the University authorities, suggesting that they would require certain very technical experts for some particular industry, and suggesting that they should attract the best brains they could into that line?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

That is actually being done in the matter of electrical engineering. That is one point upon which there have been talks with certain university heads with regard to the getting of professors on the subject of electrical engineering. I thought the Deputy was referring to courses, standards of study on certain lines. Deputy Goulding more or less insinuated that the Medical Faculty should be attended to, that the numbers of students should be reduced and that they should be diverted to other Faculties. That cannot be done. The point is that we must give the facilities to the people and enable them to avail of those facilities; let the Universities divert the students if they think it desirable to do so. Any governing authority in a University which is alive to its duty will always keep its eye on the way in which the country is tending and will observe how tendencies develop. They will always look at the trend of developments. I do not think that any University authority can be said to be behind in that matter or can be accused of not moving in the direction of whatever the needs of the country may be.

Mr. GOULDING

Possibly the Minister may have misunderstood me. What I want to drive home is that too much attention has been paid to certain Faculties and not enough to other subjects. This country is different from other countries that are more highly industrialised. They can afford to do that more than we can, and every encouragement should be given to enable us to go in the opposite direction. I do not want in the least to lower the status of the Universities. By all means let them have the most liberal courses possible, but do not turn out too many men in one profession.

Mr. M. O'REILLY

I agree with Deputy Goulding if he used the word "attract," and that is what I believe he means. I believe his intention is that there should be some attraction for farmers to become professional farmers and to get degrees in the University. I believe the position really is that in most of the other professions in this country there are people who have a fixed rate of salary. The pay they get is absolutely fixed; not alone that, but in many cases it is fixed by law. The result is a case of demand and supply. They find those professions are lucrative, comfortable and secure, and therefore the people go for these professions. If the policy was in the direction of an agricultural Faculty, if the agricultural industry was made a profession, which it ought to be, if we were not more or less still a nation of shopkeepers, I think that tendency would take place. To my mind, it is altogether a matter of enticing or encouraging the farming community to take out degrees in the Universities.

That attraction can only be brought about by the policy which the Government will adopt. I believe that the agricultural position could be bettered if the Government took it seriously in hands and meant to better it. I believe that a sufficient effort has not been made, that it will have to be made, and that the farmers in the future will insist that they get at least a fair chance.

Professor TIERNEY

I only intervene because I am afraid the impression will go out that sufficient provision is not being made in the Universities at present for technical studies of different kinds, for example, for agriculture. As a matter of fact, there are at present in existence schemes of scholarships of a very generous kind by which students can go to the University practically from the primary school and get a most elaborate technical education in agriculture from the very beginning to the top. If Deputies look up the regulations in regard to scholarships into the Agricultural College at Glasnevin they will find that there are in existence very useful schemes of scholarships by which boys can get in at an early age without necessarily passing the University matriculation, be prepared for the University matriculation, get instruction in University subjects at a very early age, and be brought from the earliest stage to the fullest degree of technical competence. The same thing applies very much to all industrial and commercial matters, as far as they can be dealt with by a University. Certainly, as far as matters relating to economics, which Deputy Little spoke of, are concerned, a very great deal is being done at present. In all the Universities, as far as I know, and I can certainly speak for my own College, not only is there ample provision for students, but very good work is being turned out at present and year by year. For instance, the publication of various valuable and important works relating to economic subjects is taking place. These things are only in their early stages at present, and they will develop more and more later on, but I do not think it would be right that the impression should go out that nothing is being done. From what I know, I can hardly conceive that very much more could be done at present than is being done in these respects. As a matter of fact, looking at the matter from the point of view of general education, what I am afraid of is that in this country there is more danger that we will suffer from an exaggeration of the tendency to go in for too much technical and commercial education and neglect unduly general education. I do not say that this is necessarily a peculiarity of this country— it is a general tendency all over the world at present, but I think, if anything, this country is rather inclined to suffer from that danger in common with other countries.

Mr. KENNEDY

As to Sub-head C —Grant of £3,000 to Trinity College under Section 15 of the Land Act of 1923—I should like to know the exact meaning of that—if that is the total contribution to Trinity College and the reasons for the grant.

Mr. MOORE

With regard to what Deputy Tierney has said about the publication of important works, since the Faculty of Commerce was established in the University there have been a number of very important theses written on economic subjects, and I should like to know the position as to the publication of these. I do not know what the custom is in the University with regard to them, but it seems a pity that some of these should be lost to the general public. I know, for instance, that a very brilliant student of Cork University College recently wrote a thesis on marketing, as applied to Irish agricultural products chiefly, I think. It would be very important and very valuable if such a thesis as that were made available. There have not been many attempts of that sort, and it would be extremely valuable for Deputies if such a paper as that were available. They would at least have a statement of facts that would be very useful and a sort of index of the books on the subject, as well as the conclusions of the student. I do not know the position with regard to these things, but perhaps Deputy Tierney would say whether there is any use in suggesting that such theses should be published from time to time for the benefit of the public—at least the most valuable of them.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

The only way this question arises is whether the House is to vote money for that purpose which is not specifically provided for in the Vote. This is a Vote for the university colleges. As a matter of fact, Cork University does run a University Press of a minor type, and has, in fact, published the thesis to which the Deputy referred as a booklet. I do know that under the auspices of the Senate of the National University a bequest which came to hand some years ago was used for the publication of certain Irish books—they were published out of money that accrued under that trust. I think the scheme for that trust was that it should be run on the lines of publishing certain academic works sent in either for the Doctorate degree or the Master degree, but I cannot say what stage that has reached. It is a matter for the internal economy of each university college, unless the Deputy is suggesting that there should be a special vote for the publication of these theses. Generally speaking, one finds that a thesis, particularly one dealing with economic matters, generally makes its appearance later in the pages of certain of the better-class reviews, and afterwards makes its appearance in book form. "Studies," for instance, reprints a great number, or, certainly, summaries of them. Then the student, if he thinks there is going to be a sale for it, can proceed to publish it. I know that some small help is given in two university colleges. University College, Cork, is giving help, and University College, Dublin. did give help for a period. I do not know what has since been done, but the money is there.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht - Thursday, 8 Nov 1928