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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 11 Apr 1929

Vol. 29 No. 2

Public Business. - Vote No. 45—Office of the Minister for Education.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £110,129 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1930, chun Costaisí Oifig an Aire Oideachais maraon le costas Riaracháin, Cigireachta, etc.

That a sum not exceeding £110,129 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1930, for the Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Education, including the cost of Administration, Inspection, etc.

I do not intend to keep the House very long in the way of an introductory statement on these Estimates. It only seems the other day when we had a full debate on this matter, and during the past five months or so there is not very much change to report. I have not much, as I say, to add to the introductory statement that was made this year or to the final statement made in reply to the various criticisms that were put forward in the course of the debate. The Deputies will notice in looking through these Estimates, from 45 on to 50, that there are a certain number of increases that might be called almost automatic increases, and increases also due to the better attendance as a whole. I will indicate, in a moment, the increase in the pupils at the primary and secondary schools. There is a certain number of decreases that to a large extent more than set off these increases. These decreases, as everybody knows, were dictated, to a very large extent, by the financial situation of the country. We felt that in the present state of the country it would not be wise to impose new taxation and that the only alternative open to the Government was in the direction of effecting certain economies or imposing new taxation. With that idea in view, the Estimates were closely scrutinised and certain economies were effected. Where these Estimates are concerned, we saw as far as possible that economies were made where the least disturbance would be caused and where the least evil effect would flow.

I do not pretend, of course, that the monies which were paid out and which are no longer paid out for certain services were wasted, but taking the Estimate as a whole into account, we feel justified in proposing these cuts. I am quite aware that it ought to be the business of the House to closely scrutinise any expenditure on the part of the Government and to oppose, in fact, any expenditure. We all know, so far as this House is concerned, that in practically every Estimate, especially in the particular Estimate that we are now dealing with, our experience has been to upset that and that the Minister in charge has very rarely to justify expenditure. He has, as a rule, to justify his failure to spend more money in his particular Department. As I say, we had to make a choice and we made it, as the Deputy will see, along certain lines which are revealed in the Estimate.

In this connection, I may refer to an extraordinary statement that was made from the Front Bench opposite during the Vote on Account, one of the few slight references that were made in the debate on the Vote on Account to the Education Vote. It was made by Deputy MacEntee. He compared the figures. I have been unable to find out where he found any of the figures he gave, but he stated that the Minister in 1926-27 actually expended £4,594,300. Next year, he said, he proposed to spend £4,851,530. I have no idea of how he put these figures together. Perhaps, before the debate is closed, he might indicate how he got these figures. However, I am not for the moment interested in the actual accuracy of these figures but in the extraordinary statement that follows. He points out there is an increase of some quarter of a million and he goes on to say: "We do not quarrel with that. What we do quarrel with is that in that particular group of services"—that is, the education services, I presume—"out of the increase of £257,000, no less than £194,000 is to be swallowed up in the office of the Minister"—which means that £194,000 of the total sum is an increase in regard to the office of the Minister—"so that for the enlargement of the educational services there only remains so far as the actual citizens of the country are concerned, apart from those who formed the bureaucracy, something like £87,000." Out of an extra expenditure of £257,000 the amount devoted to the interests of the school-going child is something less than one-third, according to that statement.

Would the Minister kindly give me the reference?

The speech is reported in Volume 28, No. 3, cols. 1029 and 1030. The statement was made a few months ago. I did not happen to be in the House at the time. When I heard of the speech I came in, but there was then another Estimate on. I could not believe anybody would make this extraordinary statement. How there would be in my office, which, under all the Votes, totals a sum of £165,000, an increase of £194,000 rather puzzled me at the time. I have not been able to solve the matter since, but perhaps the Deputy will be able to help me before the debate closes. I do not accept the implied principle that underlies criticism often levelled here, namely, that the value of a Department is to be assumed by the ratio between the amount paid to the Civil Service side of the account and the amount of money which goes out to the public. I do not consider that a sound principle. It has been often enunciated here. Very often some of the Departments of the State that may not appear favourable from that particular aspect do very valuable work and perform very important functions.

As the question was raised in that startling fashion by Deputy MacEntee, perhaps I will be allowed to refer to the relative costs of administration. Roughly speaking, the total Vote for which I am responsible is four and a half millions. I think the cost of administration of the central office dealing with primary and technical education and industrial schools, including the inspection of industrial schools, amounts to £169,000. If you take what might be debited fairly to the central office from other Votes, such as the Stationery Office, and the upkeep of the buildings which they have to occupy, you might add another £20,000. You will see that in reality the cost of the administration of the Department is about 2.3 per cent. of the total Vote. The cost of inspection amounts to about 2 per cent. I refer to that matter because it was one of the few references made in the debate on the Vote on Account for my particular Department.

In various places, and also in this House, a certain amount of doubt was expressed as to the actual working of the School Attendance Act. I can understand a certain amount of doubt springing up as to the actual working of the Act. The suggestion was made that after the first fear on the part of refractory parents had passed away there would be a slackening off. That may have been so in certain individual areas. I am not denying that. It is natural enough that the people interested in education there should make their voices heard, and, naturally enough, these voices were heard, but we heard very little from the areas in which there was real effective enforcement. The House can rest assured, so far as the actual working of the Act is concerned, that the results are satisfactory. There are three types of evidence so far as that is concerned. An increase comes in the way of providing extra capitation grants and in the way of providing for extra teachers. All that may be traced directly to the coming into force of the Act. We have actual statistics of the total number of pupils attending, and we have, further, the reports of the divisional inspectors based on the reports of the district inspectors for the present year. These reports will be published in due course in the annual report of the Department.

There has been a certain amount of diminution of principal teachers due to the amalgamation schemes. We leave out of account the Christian Brothers' Schools because they are a new service and therefore, for the purposes of comparison as regards the years in which the Act was not in force and the years when it was in force, their schools cannot well be taken into account. Taking the other schools, we find that in what might be called the first full year of enforcement of the Act, the year 1927-28, there was an increase of about £17,000 in the teachers' salaries. In convents where capitation grants exist there was an increase in the same year of £80,000, and as regards residual capitation, an increase of £8,000. In the year 1928-29 there was an increase of £10,000 in teachers' salaries and an increase of £8,600 in residual capitation grants. Notwithstanding the diminution in the number of principal teachers owing to the cause to which I have referred there was, if you compare 1927-8, or the end of 1928, with the year 1925, an increase of 143 teachers. Even for the year 1927 there was an increase of 134. As regards the actual percentages, I need not give the actual numbers so far as percentages are concerned. On 31st December, 1924, the percentage of attendance was 73.5; on the 30th June, 1926, the figure was 77. The fear of the Act had begun to operate—Deputies interested in this matter will bear me out—actually before the Act came into force. On the 30th June, 1927, the percentage was 79.7, and on the 30th June, 1928, the figure was 82.7. Therefore, up to the last moment for which we have figures available there has been a steady increase.

As regards the actual numbers, that is also instructive. Taking the actual number between the ages of 6 and 14, to whom the Act applies, I find that we cannot go back. It is difficult to go back before 1927. But comparing the numbers for the 30th June, 1928, even with the number for the 30th of June, 1927, when there had already been an increase, I find that in the second of these periods there was an increase from 338,000 to 354,000. All that is borne out by the reports of the divisional inspectors. In some cases they reported an increase of 15 per cent. In actual fact, so far as our statistics go, naturally the increase has varied in the different districts. It has been least of all in the City of Cork. That is not because Cork is worse than any other place, but because Cork was so good before. It was always the opinion that the school attendance committee in Cork had enforced the School Attendance Act very well. I think when we were debating the Compulsory School Attendance Bill that was acknowledged. It was acknowledged that a few areas were very good, and Cork city was one of the best. There has been a very small increase in Cork, but the increase in Donegal has been as much as 9 per cent.

The percentage of pupils that were attending in the year ended the 30th June, 1928, was not less than 80 per cent. for any county or county borough. The highest percentage was reached in the Waterford County Borough. That was 86.8 per cent.; Dublin city was 86.4 per cent.; Westmeath was 85.9 per cent., and the City of Cork 85 per cent. In some cases there was an increase of up to 15 per cent. That was the figure in parts of Donegal. One of the inspectors called attention to that increase which occurred in some districts in Donegal.

There is another effect of the Act that I think was adverted to. It was adverted to by myself at the time. That was the peculiar effect of the Act, and human nature being what it is, it was perhaps to be expected. There has been, on the whole, an increase in the attendance, but there has been a falling-off in the ages. The falling-off is in the attendance from 3 to 6. There was a falling-off in the attendance after 14. Even long before this Act came into force, it was often pointed out that when a young fellow was found on the road and asked why he was not at school he would, at once, say: "I am 14," as if that were a sufficient excuse. That effect has operated. That only shows that the benefits of the Act are greater even than the figures I have given would lead one to suppose. It means that in these crucial years for primary education between the ages of 6 and 14 there is often a bigger attendance than the figures I have quoted indicate. There is more concentration and more regular attendance. One of the divisional inspectors points out, however, that one result of the Act has been—and this is not always borne in mind when people criticise the system—that a number of children have come again to school who had left off attending. When they come back they have rather a disturbing effect on the school, for the moment at all events.

The immediate result of the Act has in many schools been that children between 12 and 13 years who have left school and were never in regular attendance, are regularly noticeable now in the schools. They are to be found in the third and fourth standards. These children are a distinct handicap on the progress of the schools at present. That is inevitable. But the Act is working satisfactorily. Even the figures I have given are not a sufficient indication of the benefit from regular attendance between the ages of 6 and 14. That, of course, is only external evidence, if I might so call it, of certain progress that we are making in educational matters.

To test our system as a whole is, I am afraid, impracticable. It never is possible to do so. The only people who will know whether it is good or bad are the people a generation hence, and I doubt if they will know it either. They will be looking back, just as some of the people now are looking back, at the excellent system that prevailed a generation ago. We are not capable of weighing immediately the more subtle effects of education on the pupils. Neither can we do that so far as their mental training, mental ability and agility are concerned, and still less can we judge what is specially important— the formation of character. So far as external evidence is concerned, we have proof of closer attention to education in the primary schools. The same thing holds also in the secondary schools. There is an increase of 5 per cent. in the attendance of the pupils.

There are one or two other matters to which on previous Estimates for the Department of Education attention has been called. I may refer to them here, as Deputies on previous occasions have referred to them. Questions have been asked in connection with the new preparatory colleges. We were asked as to how far they were successful in getting pupils from the Gaeltacht. As the Deputies may remember, I was not quite satisfied on the last occasion about the success of the colleges at the time in that particular respect. Since then the latest figures show a rather striking improvement. An examination was held in June, 1928, for entrance to the preparatory colleges. Something over 1,200 pupils presented themselves for that examination. Of these 159 were subsequently admitted to the colleges. Under the regulations in force 50 per cent. of the places in the colleges were reserved for those who could get 85 per cent. or over in oral Irish, that is, provided they qualified otherwise in the examination. So far as the preparatory colleges were concerned, the following is more or less the result—there has been an increase in the actual number from 21 per cent. from the Gaeltacht in 1927 to 46 per cent. in the year 1928, taking all the colleges into account. That certainly indicates an advance so far as that portion of the country is concerned which, up to the present, has not, on the whole, supplied its quota of national teachers. A similar advance in that respect, as far as the use of the Irish language is concerned, has been made in the training colleges. There has been a difficulty in finding suitable teachers for the Church of Ireland training colleges.

In the rest of the training colleges the bulk of the subjects outside English are now capable of being done through Irish. On the Secondary side there has also been an increase in what are known as the (A) schools, that is, schools in which the subjects, except English, are taught through Irish. The Class (B) schools are tending in the same direction. It is only a very short time since I spoke on the Estimate for the Department of Education, and I do not think it is necessary now to delay the House any longer. I have no doubt Deputies will be anxious to get information. Perhaps I should wait until I find what information they want before offering to supply it. There is one thing I would like to apologise for. There is a certain delay in two matters. I promised that the secondary teachers' pension scheme would be ready and also that the rules would be printed.

I expected that the secondary teachers' pension scheme would be presented to the House before now and that the rules would be printed before now. I regret that it will take possibly ten days or a fortnight before the secondary teachers pension scheme can be printed and circulated to Deputies. Though there was full agreement several months ago as to the main principle and as to practically all the details of the scheme, a number of intricacies and difficulties presented themselves in the actual drafting, when efforts were made to provide for the various things which have to be provided for and provided against. The revision of the rules has proved much heavier than I supposed. At the time I last spoke about the rules there was a draft copy of the rules, but since then considerable modification in some matters has taken place and there has been a rearrangement of the rules. As I say, I hope that before long the rules will be available for managers and teachers and that it will not be long before the secondary teachers pension scheme will be introduced into the Dáil.

Ba mhaith liom cur síos ar Vótanna 45, 46, 47, 48 agus 49, agus gan bheith ag cur síos ortha ina gceann agus ina gceann. Má tá cead agam, dheanfaidh mé mar sin.

Caithtear breis agus 4½ milliún púnt ar chúrsaí oideachais sa stát so in-aghaidh na bliana, agus téigheann an costas sin i méid i ndiaidh a chéile fé mar a chuirtear brainnsí nua oideachais ar bun. Níl aon dul uaidh sin. Ní fuláir dúinn an t-oideachas is fearr a sholáthair d'aos óg na tíre, má's mian linn dul chun chinn. Ní mór féachaint chúige, ámh, go gcaithtear an t-airgead san ar an tslighe is feárr, go mbaintear oiread buntáiste as an suim mór airgid sin agus is féidir.

Dá bhrigh sin, samhluightear domhsa nár bhfearr rud a dheunfainn ná tagairt a dhéanamh do phoinntí áirithe in a bhféadfaí feabhas a chur ar gach roinn de'n oideachas—bíodh an feabhas san beag nó mór. B'fhusa go mór é sin a dhéanamh dá mbéadh fhios againn cad tá beartuighthe ag Aire an Oideachais fá mholtaí Choimsiún an Chéardoideachais do chur i n-éifeacht. Tá geallta aige Bille a thabhairt isteach i ndeire an t-samhraidh. Go dtí san, ní féidir plean ná scéim an oideachais do bhreithniú i gceart agus in iomlán. Tá lúb ar lár ann fá láthair. Tá na scoileanna leanamhacha agus na scoileanna cheárdoideachais i n-easnamh go fóill.

Anois, maidir le Bun-Oideachas, tá 5,500 scoileanna ann do leathmhilliún leanbhaí. D'admhuigh an t-Aire féin cúpla bliain ó shoin go raibh 350 scoileanna nua de dhíth orra, agus go raibh tuairim 500 scoil ró-bheag. Ba mhaith linn fios a bheith againn cad tá déanta i rith na bliana so caithte le scoileanna nua do thógáil nó le sean-scoileanna do dheisiú. Is mó an gábhadh atá leis an obair sin ó cuireadh iachall ar na leanbhaí go léir an scoil do thinnreamh. Dála an scéil, bhí áthas orm a clos go bhfuil toradh maith ar an reacht san ar fuaid an tSaorstáit.

I dtaoibh na leabhar scoile, dubhras, anuiridh go mba chóir coiste fé leith bheith i mbun na leabhar scoile—Béarla agus Gaedhilge. An rud ab fhearr im thuairimse b'é sraith leabhar do chur i n-eagar ar Roinn an Oideachais féin —rud a deineadh ag an sean-Bhord Náisiúnta—agus gan glacadh le h-aon leabhair scoile a cuirfí amach ag aon chomhlucht foillsightheóirí muna mbeidís ar aon dul leis an mbarr-shamhail sin. Tá leabhair scoile in úsáid fá láthair agus gan aon phioc de'n náisiúntacht ionnta, gan mórán tagairt d'Eirinn ionnta, in aon chor. Ní ceart san. Maidir le cuid de na leabhair staire, tá siad go dona, cuid acu contabharthach do spiorad na náisiuntachta. I dtaoibh na leabhair Gaedhilge, is olc an mianach atá i gcuid acu agus is measa an Ghaedhilg atá ionnta. Táthar ag gearán fá mhúineadh na matamaitice ins na scoileanna naisiúnta agus is dóigh liom go bhfuil bunadhas éigin leis an ngearán san. Ní deireann san nach ndeineann na h-oidí scoile a ndítheheall. Acht tá athrú mór tagaithe ar an dteagase so le roinnt blianta anuas agus níor cuireadh na h-óidí in oiriúnt chuige sin. Sé mo bharúil-se nár mhisde cúrsaí samhraidh, nó cúrsaí éigin, do chur ar bun i gcóir na múinteóirí sa matamaitice.

Tá deire curtha leis na cúrsaí samhraidh sa Ghaedhilg. Is dóigh liom féin go mba cheart leanamhaint dóibh go ceann dhá bhliain eile. Ar aon chuma, iarraim ar an Aire chur in iúl dúinn cad tá ar inntinn aige chur in ionad na gcúrsaí sin idtreo is go mbeidh ar chumas na múinteoirí teistiméireachtaí fhághail. Tá teisteas sa Ghaedhilg ag 7,500 as 13,300 múinteóirí ach cad mar gheall ar an 6,000 nach bhfuil teistiméireachtaí aca?

Ba mhaith liom-sa duine amháin de mhúinteóirí gach scoile bheith ina Ghaedhilgeoir ó dhúthchas, toise gur annamh a bhíonns rith na cainnte ag an té fhoghlaimeanns an Ghaedhilg agus é ina dhuine fhásta. An dtiocfaidh san as na coláistí ollmhucháin? Sin ceist. Dheineas clamhsán anuiridh nach sa Ghaeltacht a rugadh furmhór mór na mac léighinn a bhí ar na coláistí sin. Bhí áthas orm a chlos go bhfuil feabhas tagaithe ar an scéal sin ó shoin agus gur Gaedhilgeoirí ó dhúthchas a leath de's na daoine óga san anois, agus gur ag dul i líonmhaireacht a bheas an dream san feasta. Tháinig an t-athrú san as breis marcanna a thabhairt do labhairt na Gaedhilge. Is sa Ghaeltacht ba chóir na coláistí sin a bhunú. Ní fhéadfaí teach nó árus oiriúnach fhághail ar an bpoinnte dóibh go léir. Is dócha gur mian leis an Aire Coláiste Caoimhin agus Coláiste Móibhí a coiméad in Ath Cliath, acht tá coláiste i geóir na mbuachaillí i Magh Ealla—go sealadach. Cathaoin a aistreofar go dtí an Ghaeltacht é? Tá ceann eile i gcóir cailíní i Leitir Ceannain—áit nach bhfuil roGhaedhalach. Cathaoin a bhunófar sa Ghaeltacht é? Tiocfaidh 70 buachaillí agus 70 cailíní ó na coláistí sin gach bliain go dtí na coláistí múinteoireachta; tiocfaidh an meid ceudna ó n dream ar a dtugtar "pupil teachers," ag a mbíonn an Ghaedhilg go maith. Sin 140 buachaillí agus 140 cailíní. Sé méid na gcailíní a théigheanns isteach ins na coláistí múinteoireachta in aghaidh na bliana ná 150. Dá bhrigh san, níl acht 10 in casnamh. Gheobhfar an deichneabhar san tré scrúdú na Cásca.

'Sna coláistí múinteoireachta na mbuachaillí, tá 180 ag dul isteach gach bliain, nó 40-60 in easnamh, tar éis mic léighinn na geoláistí ullmhucháin agus na "pupil teachers" do choimhirimh—geobfar iad san tré scrúdú na Cásca. Maidir le stáid na Gaedhilge, ins na Coláistí Múinteoireachta, tá feabhas tagaithe ar Choláiste Pádruig. Ní raibh ach ollamh amháin ag a raibh an Gheadhilg annsin uair amhain. Tá ceathrar ollamhan ann anois atá in ann adhbhair léighinn a mhúineadh tréGheadhilg—agus atá á dheunamh san. Tá na Coláistí eile ag dul ar aghaidh go h-iongantach, go h-áirithe Carraig Dubh. Is tré Ghaedhilg a deintear an cuid is mó de'n obair ag Carraig Dubh. Sin mar ba cheart.

Admhuighthear go bhfuil coláiste eile ag teastáil i gcóir na gcailíní. Tá súil againn go mbunófar an Coláiste sin i nGaillimh—an baile mór is Gaedhealaighe sa tír, é ar theorainn na fior-Ghaeltachta. Cabhróchadh coláiste de'n tsaghas san go mór le Gaedhlú na cathrach san agus le h-obair coláiste na hOllscoile annsin. Thiocfadh leis na sgoláirí fosta a bheith ag cainnt le múinntear na Gaeltachta. Is iad na h-adhbhair léighinn atá riachtanach ins na scoileanna náisiúntacha ná Gaedhilg, Bearla, Matamaitice, Stair, Tír Eolas agus Amhránuíocht. Is maith an rud an amhránuíocht a bheith ann agus tá súil agam go mbaintear úsáid aisti le fuaimeanna na Gaedhilge do thabhairt amach i gceart. B'fhéidir go n-eosfadh an tAire duinn an méid scoil nach bhfuil ceól na amhránuiocht ghá theagasg ionnta.

Tá locht amháin le faghail ar mhuinntir na tíre seo—nách léigheann siad mórán, Gaedhilg nó Béarla. Ba choir leabharlainn do chur ar bun ins na scoileanna. Ní dó liom go bhfuil aon ní déanta mar gheall air sin go fóill.

Do deineadh a lán díospóireachta annso indiu agus indé fá cúrsaí sláinte puiblí agus a ngabhann léi. D'fheudfadh na múinteóirí scoile na leanbhaí do theagase ina thaoibh, i dtaobh sláinte, i dtaobh glaine, agus i dtaobh dualgaisí na cathraigh-theoireachta, agus gan aon ceachtanna fá leith bheith ann ina gcóir sin.

B'fhéidir nár mhisde tagairt a dheunamh do na scoláireachtaí ó bhunscóil go meadhon scoil a bhronntar ag an Comhairlí puiblí. Ar an chéad dul síos, is do leanbhaí na mbocht a ceapadh na scoláireachtaí sin agus ba chóir féachaint chuige gurb iad na leanbhaí bochta a gheobhas iad. Déantar an obair go maith in Ath Cliath—go h-áirithe san chathair. Is iad na leanbhaí bochta a gheibheas na scoláireachta in Ath Cliath ach, fe'n dtuaidh, níl siad chó cúramach agus bá chóir doibh a bheith. Sa dara h-áirt, b'fhearrde an tír agus b'fhearrde na leanbhaí féin iad a chur go dtí scoil ceárdoideachais nó scoil chuireadóireachta. D'fheudfaí a rádh go mbéadh leanbh 14 bliain d'aois ró óg le dul isteach i scoil de'n tsaghas san. Bhéadh cuid den fhírinne annsin, acht d'feudfaí an scoláireacht de roinnt —dhá bhliain ar gnáth-scoil idirmheadhonaigh agus dhá bhliain ar scoil cheárd-oideachais, no scoil tighis agus cócaireachta, nó scoil chuiradóireachta. Tá obair mhaith den tseort san ghá dhéanamh i Ros Cré agus i gCill mac Coda agus in áiteacha eile agus ba cheart úsáid do bhainnt as na Coláistí seo.

Baoth-chainnt is eadh an chuid is mó de'n chainnt a bhi ann le goirid fá chearcalan a cuireadh amach i mbliana fá na coingeallacha a bhaineans leis na marcanna úd "éifeachtúil" agus "árd-éifeachtúil" d'fhagháil ag oide scoile. Ní tugtar marcanna fá leith do gach adhbhar léighinn anois agus níor bhfuláir rud éigin a chur in ionad an marc dúbálta a tugtaí do labhairt na Gaedhilge ó 1924 anuas. Ní mór na leanbhaí scoile bheith go "h-anamhaith" i labhairt an t-SacsBheurla agus i labhairt na Gaedhilge i ranganna 4—7, má's mian leis an múinteóir bheith "ana-éifeachtúil." Beatha aon teangan í labhairt agus dá fheabhas a labhartar í is amhlaidh is fearr an teagasc. Dár ndóigh deintear agus deunfar cóingheallacha áitiúla a thabhairt isteach agus ní baoghal do na múinteóirí. Ní gadh standard an Bhéarla a bheith chó h-árd i nDún Chaoin agus mar a bhéadh sé in Atha Cliath nó chó-h-Árd i nGaedhilg i gCountae na Midhe agus mar a bheadh sé i nDún Chaoin.

Labhras an lá fá dheire i dtaobh "Ciste Aoisliuntais na n-oidí scoile." Ní fhuair na Teachtaí Dála tuarasgabháil na n-inniúchthóirí fá'n gCiste sin, agus níl cóip den tuarasgabháil sa leabharlainn. Gidh go mbaineann an sceul san le Aireacht an Oideachais, is dlúithe a bhaineann sé le h-Aireacht an Airgid agus b'fhearr an sceul a chur ath-ló, dá dtabharfaí cead dúinn é pléidhe nuair a bheas meastachán an Aire sin ós ár gcomhair.

I bhfreagra a thug Aire an Oideachais ar cheist a chuireas air tuairim is mí ó shoin, dubhairt sé go bhfuil suas le 800 múinteóirí scoile ar phinsean agus fé bhun £70 an duine acu. Bheadh £21,000 de chostas ag baint leis an bpinsean san a árdú go £70 agus ní dóigh liom go mbeadh an tAire sásta é sin a dheunamh. Acht, go deimhin, is mór an náire níos lugha ná púnt sa tseachtmhain a bheith ag aon mhúinteóir a chaith a shaoghal ag obair ins na scoileanna.

Cím go bhfuil 1850 ban-chongantóirí ann—"Jams" a tugtar orra. Sé Mr. Starkie, Coimisinéir, a chuir isteach ins na scoileanna ar dtúis iad. Is fíor go bhfuil tuarasdal níos fearr go mór acu thar mar a bhíodh acht níl fhios agam an mian leis an Aire stáid na múinteóirí sin a fheabhsú. Rud eile dhe, an mbeidh an oiread ceudna díobh ag teastáil nuair a chuirfear an Amalgamation Scheme i n-eifeacht.

Ba mhaith linn, fréisin, colas beacht fhághail fá cé an stáid i dtaobh pinsin agus eile atá ag na múinteóirí so leanas: 450 cailíní atá ag múineadh ins na coinbhintí agus 160 fir i scoileanna na mBráthar.

B'ionmholta an rud é meadhon oideachas do sholáthairt d'aos óg na tíre agus tá's againn go caithfar é sin a dhéanamh i ndiaidh ar ndiaidh.

Maidir leis na meadhon scoileanna atá ann indiu, ba mhaith liom cur síos ar na roinntí seo leanas:— Cúrsaí matamaitice, cúrsaí startha, ceachtanna do scríobhadh agus d'foghluim sa mbaile, laetheannta saoire agus cúrsaí ceoil.

Maidir le Matamatice, bhí a lán daoine ag scríobhadh chun na bpáipéirí nuachta anuraidh agus an bhliain roimhe sin ghá rá go raibh na ceisteanna ar na páipéirí scrúduithe le h-aghaidh meadhon scoil ró-dheacair agus ró chruaidh agus ghá rá fós gur ghá céim iolscoile bheith ag duine chun bheith in ann iad do fhreagairt. Tamall ó shoin, chonnaic mé páipéar matamatice le h-aghaidh scrúduithe sa Ghearmáin. Agus cé go raibh sé ceaptha le h-aghaidh grád níos ísle, bhí na ceisteanna chó cruaidh agus an standard chó h-árd leis an Ard-Testiméireacht annso in Éirinn.

Tá atharú tagaithe ar mhódh múinteoireachta na Matamatice fé láthair. Is eagal liom nach bhfuil na múinteoirí matamatice san meadhon-scoileanna sáthach oilte, nó curtha in oiriúint, mar adéarfá chun matamatice do theagasc ar an tslí sin. Is é mo thuairim go bhfuil gá le cúrsaí chun na múinteoirí féin do theagasc cionnas na matamatice do mhúineadh.

Anois, i dtaobh staire, tá gearán le déanamh agam. Tá tréimhse áirithe leagtha amach i gcóir na bliana so agus na bliana so chugainn, agus na bliana ina dhiaidh sin. Agus mar gheall ar sin, ní féidir don mhac-léighinn an "perspective" nó an poinnte radhaire ceart d'fhagháil ar an stair. B'fhéidir go bhfaghann siad colas doimhin ar thréimhse áirithe ach ní fhaghann siad radhare iomlán, leathan ar an stair i geoitchinne. Sílim gur chóir cómhdháil lucht stiúrtha oideachais do thabhairt le chéile gach samhradh chun an cheist seo do phléidhe.

Rud eile de, is cuimhin liom seisear buachaill i mbaile mhór sa tír seo, timecheall 20 bliain ó shoin, agus d'éirigh leo "exhibitions" d'fhagháil de thora na scrúduithe Idirmeadhonacha a bhí ann san am. Laistigh de bhliain ó'n am san, bhí ceathrar aca ar casláinte. Bhí an cúrsa ró-chruaidh dóibh. Is dó liom go bhfuil an iomarca oibre le déanamh istoiche ag na micléighinn. Is dóigh liom gur cheart sos níos fearr do thabhairt dóibh. Tá aithne agam ar bhuachaillí atá ag dul ar scoileanna idir-mheadhonacha annso i mBaile Atha Cliath fá láthair, agus is éigin dóibh ceithre h-uaire oibre do dhéanamh sa bhaile tráthnóna. Ní ceart san agus níl sé ar mhaithe le sláinte na mac léighinn. Ní bhíonn ar mhacaibh léighinn na meadhon-scol, de réir na riaghalachaacht 130 laethe do chur isteach i mbliain scoile. B'fhearr, dar liomsa, na laethe saoire do ghiorrú agus níos lú oibre do thabhairt dóibh le dhéanamh sa bhaile istoiche. B'fhearr dóibh go mór bheith amuigh ag iománaidheacht nó ag imirt peile sa tráthnóna ná bheith ag obair ar feadh ceathair nó cúig d'uaire a chluig.

Mar gheall ar na cúrsaí i nGaedhilg, tá gearán le déanamh agam agus ag Aireacht an oideachais ar leathanach a 53 de thuarasgabhail na bliana 1927 i dtaobh na múinteóirí idir-mheadhonacha. Níor fhreastail siad na cúrsaí leath chó maith leis na múinteóirí náisiúnta. Measaim gur cheart dóibh dul ar na cúrsaí sin agus foghlaim cionnas abhair scoile do theagase tríd an Ghaedhilg.

Mar gheall ar cheol agus amhránaíocht san meadhon-scoileanna, tá tuairim 300 meán-scoil ann agus níl córacha ceoil ach i dtimcheall 15 de scoileanna na mbuachaillí. Is aidhbhéil an scéal san agus ba chóir iad do ghríosú.

Rinne mé tagairt anuraidh do theagase na Laidne i scoileanna na gCailín. Agus d'aontuigh Micheál Ó Tighearnaigh, Teachta, liom go raibh an scéal go dona. Ó shoin leith, tá feabhas tagaithe ar an scéal. Tá na cailíní ag tosnú ar an Laidin níos luaithe. Agus níl an oiread san "cram" agus a bhíodh chun an méid Laidne d'fhoghlaim atá riachtanach chun dul isteach san iolscoil. Tá ciall ag teacht chuca agus tá siad ag caitheamh bliana ar a luighead anois ag foghlaim Laidne sul a dtéigheann siad go dtí an Iolscoil. B'fhéidir gur cheart dóibh dhá bhliain nó trí do chaitheamh ag foghlaim Laidne sul a dtugadh siad fé dul isteach san Iolscoil. Ba mhaith an plean é sin dá mb' fhéidir a dhéanamh.

I ngach meadhon scoil sa tír, go h-áirithe sna coláistí, tá seo le tabhairt fá ndeara: go bhfuil dream mór nó dream beag ann nach bhfuil róchliste. "Heavy weights" is ea iad. Agus níl siad ach ag cailleadh aimsire agus ag cur isteach ar obair na scoile. Sé mo thuairim féin gur cheart clár speisiálta do leaga amach ina gcóir siúd. Dá mbéadh clár ann 'na mbéadh Gaedhilg, Béarla, Matamatice, Eolaíocht Tuaithe, "Manual Work" agus i gcóir na gcailíní tigheas agus cócaircacht—dá mbéadh dhá roinn den tsort san déanta ba mhaith an rud é. Má's rud é go bhfuil dhá mheánscoil í mbaile, cuir i gcás, ba cheart a iarraidh ar cheann aca na h-abhair léighinn seo agus curadóireacht agus eile do theagasc. Bhéadh sé níos feiliúnaí do na feirméirí.

Dintar a lán docair tré dhuaiseanna agus "exhibitions" do thabhairt, agus tríd fhoillsiú na nithe sin san páipéirí nuachta. Chó fada agus tá comórtas den tsaghas san idir na scoileanna, tabharfar aire speisiálta do sna buachaillí agus do sna cailíní atá cliste agus dintar faillí ionta siúd nach bhfuil.

I dtaobh na n-iolscoil, ba chóir go mbéadh fhios againn—b'fhéidir nach bhfuil sé ar chumas an Aire an t-eolas san do thabhairt uaidh—cad é an teacht-isteach díreach atá aca in aghaidh na bliana; cá mhéid airgead a caithtear ar gach ceann de sna coláistí iolscoile; agus fós cad é an méid díreach a caithtear ar gach roinn no brainse den léigheann i ngach ceann aca. Chonnaic mé in áit éigin go raibh beagnach 2,000 mac léighinn san Iolscoil Náisiúnta gan trácht ar Mhagh Nuadhad. Fuair 300 aca san an céim, "B.A." agus 41 an "B.Sc." Is doigh liom féin go bhfuil an iomarca B.A. ar fad sa tír, agus san am chéanna tá sé an-dheacair muinteoir maith matamatice d'fháil. Ní deirim ná go bhfuil roinnt mhaith de mhúinteóirí maithe matamatice sna scoileanna cheana féin, ach tá dith ann. Ba cheart, dar liom, scoláireachtaí fá leith do thabhairt do mhic léighinn a chlaoidhfeadh le foghlaim matamatice go speisialta.

Ba mhaith liom colas d'fháil cionnas atá an Roinn Curadóireachta a bunuíodh i gColáiste na hIolscoil i gCorcaigh ag dul chun chinn. Tugadh roinnt airgid do Choláiste na hIolscoile i nGaillimh chun é do Ghaedhealú. Táid ag lorg a thuille airgid anois agus ba cheart, dar liom, riail dhaingean a bheith ann a chuirfeadh in áirithe go gcaithfear an t-airgead san ar Ghaedhealú an Choláiste agus ní ar éinní eile.

Rinne mé tagairt cheana don cheist seo: An méid daoine a bheidh ag teacht amach as na Coláistí Múinteóireachta agus an Ghaedhilg go maith aca—cuid aca ó'n Ghaedhealtacht. Beidh cuid aca ag dul chun na hiolscoile. Cad tá á dhéanamh san iolscoil i mBaile Atha Cliath chun leanúint tríd an Ghaedhilg d'oideachas na mac léighinn sin? Tá fhios agam go bhfuil rud éigin á dhéanamh i nGaillimh agus i gCorcaigh ach níl fhios agam cad táthar a dhéanamh i mBaile Atha Cliath.

Rud eile, tá difríocht mhór idir an "Matriculation" agus scrúdú na hArd-Teistiméireachta. Dhéanfaidh aon cheann aca cúis chun cead d'fháil dul isteach san iolscoil. Tá i bhfad i bhfad níos mó léighinn agus eolais agus foghlama ag teastáil i gcóir na hÁrd-Teistiméireachta ná mar tá ag teastáil i gcóir an "Matriculation." Bá chóir an dá scrúdú do chur ar aon dul. Ba cheart scrúdú an "Matriculation" do dhéanamh níos cruaidhe. Tá cuid mhór daoine ag dul isteach san iolscoil agus nil siad in ann tairbhe do bhaint as an dteagase atá le fáil san iolscoil.

There are just a few points I want to make. There is, for instance, for the past few years, a very large amount of money spent by the Education Department in regard to the Irish language. It has taken up a very commendable attitude, an effort evidently towards the Gaelicisation of this State. There are at present throughout the Saorstát a number of secondary schools and colleges under the control of the Minister, to a great extent. I noticed recently that complaints have been made by different Gaelic organisations throughout the country that certain secondary schools and colleges have cut entirely out of their outdoor sports programme Gaelic games and pastimes, or anything of the kind that would tend towards the Gaelicisation of pupils in those schools. Foreign games are introduced into those schools. I hold that is entirely a challenge to the Education Department. I would like that the Department would accept that challenge, and that the Minister, if nothing else would be done, would at least sound a warning note to schools and colleges of that kind, because. I am not sure of the figure, but I think out of public money there are grants of £10 or £15 per head for every recognised pupil in those schools. Since these schools are able to carry on through the Department of Education, and are being assisted out of public funds, I think the Minister should strike a warning note for such schools as have introduced these foreign games. I would like if that was done where they have put out of their outdoor school programme Gaelic games. It should be taken up with those schools that the matter of withdrawing those grants will be considered by the Department. I think it is a serious enough matter when you have a large amount of public funds being expended in an effort to make this an Irish-speaking Gaelic State. It should not be tolerated that schools, who are at the same time enabled to carry on by the public funds, should be allowed to put that work at nought throughout the country.

There is another matter. Generally throughout the country I find the opinion expressed that the people are not getting value for the money spent on education. That, in a way, is not my opinion, but that is the general opinion of a large section of the people, and I hold that there is something radically wrong while that is the opinion of the people. You find, too, in the enforcing of the School Attendance Act in many cases even certain public representatives, county councils —I know many of them— were entirely opposed to that Act. That is an entirely wrong attitude on their part, but I am often wondering what is the root cause of the opposition towards the Compulsory School Attendance Act. I think the people feel that they are not getting value for money spent on education. If, for instance, you go into a school in rural Ireland to-day you will find very little knowledge there amongst the pupils on matters, for instance, dealing with climatic conditions. I mean matters which should be taught in the schools in an agricultural country. There is no such thing as any knowledge in the primary schools of local soils or matters of that kind, that would be of interest to pupils who are afterwards going in for the farming industry. There is, more or less from schools, a tendency to rush to the professions or into business, or rush away from the farm and get into the town. There is certainly very little inducement to pupils who leave off school to go into farming, and even amongst farmers themselves you will very often find a great lack of interest in their profession, if you may call it such. I think in an agricultural country some effort should be made by the educational authorities to tackle that apathy on the part of pupils and those who have left off school and to see that the apathy to our primary industry is not allowed to remain in this country.

I maintain it is a national loss and what I suggest to the Department of Education is this. You have at present a great cry from the Teachers Organisation and others to have attached to schools playing grounds for athletic games. I think it is a much greater need and it would be of very much greater value to the State if you could have attached to the schools tillage demonstration plots. I think it would be a very good thing if the Department would consider that matter in counties where you have county committees of agriculture. I hold that there is a great waste of energy and public money through these committees by reason of the fact that work done by agricultural instructors under these county committees is very little appreciated. Their labours are not looked up to by people to whom they go. I wonder if the demonstration plots were set up throughout the county and if some kind of co-operation could be had between the Department of Education and that branch of Local Government, and if it could be arranged that demonstration plots would as far as possible be arranged adjacent to the schools, I think it would not incur any extra expense on the Department of Education, because the plots are in most counties but are never taken advantage of near the schools.

I was speaking to several members of county committees of agriculture and also to agricultural inspectors, in one county anyhow, and they consider it would be quite an easy matter to arrange. Farmers who have plots of land adjoining schools would be only too glad for the period of one or two years to place at the disposal of the Department a rood or less of land. I think if that co-operation were arranged between those two branches, the Local Government branch and the Education authorities, to have those plots, and if the local county committees of agriculture could arrange to have the instructors attend these places for an hour each week during a certain period, and arrange during the school programme that time would be given for pupils of the higher standard, boys could be instructed in certain interests and other matters connected with agriculture.

I think it would make these people very much interested in a branch of industry in which there is very little interest taken at present by the school-going children or by those who have left school. I think that would bring some live interest into that branch of the farming industry. I think if the Department could go further and give, say, scholarships to pupils who would try to carry on some kind of plots in their home gardens—vegetable plots and fruit plots—it would have a very desirable effect. We find that there is very little done amongst the farming community in that respect. You have no such thing as fruit gardens throughout the country as a whole, and you have no such thing as general vegetable plots. People may say that this is a matter for the Department of Agriculture, but I think the lack of interest in these things should be tackled by the educational authorities. The school is the proper place to induce people in that way, and it would be very desirable if the Department could see their way at least to consider the matter. In taking it up they would be doing something that is very commendable.

There are a few aspects of this education policy of the Government that I wish to draw your attention to. One is the question of providing meals for children. It may be said that this comes under the Vote for Local Government and Public Health, but education, as we understand it, I think, is comprehensive enough to take in the conditions that help to develop the body as well as the mind. If the body is not developed, the mind will not be able to profit by the education given in the schools. Some time ago this question of meals for children in rural areas was raised. The House was informed that steps were being taken, and that in the near future or at an early date steps would be taken to bring in legislation to have the existing law with regard to the provision of school meals for children extended to the rural areas. That was raised by a Deputy in October in this House. It was raised by me on another occasion, before Christmas, and in reply to a letter to the Minister I was told that the matter would be speeded up, but still nothing has been done and no information has been given to us as to what steps, if any, are being taken. I have personal evidence of the need for the provision of school meals in these districts. Several teachers have told me that they themselves have to provide bread for the children in schools out of pity for the condition of children, who in some cases have to travel three or four miles. That should not be allowed to obtain. If the duty does not devolve on the Minister. I would ask him to use his influence with the Minister for Local Government and Public Health to have it done.

Then there is the question of the condition of the school buildings. I have had personal experience of the condition of the school buildings. I know some places where the schools are not properly ventilated, and I know places where the schools are too well ventilated—there is nothing else but ventilation. I know where in one school there is a gable facing the south that is in imminent danger of falling in. The panels of the door are loose and the wind is getting right in through the school. Of course the Minister may say that this is not his duty, as it devolves mainly on the managers of the schools, but if the system of education and the policy of the Government in regard to it is put into operation in a satisfactory way steps must be taken to see that these schools are in a fit condition to house the children. The main duty of the Government is, I believe, to look after the health of the individual— as I said before, the health of the body as well as the health of the mind, and unless provision is made for giving decent buildings to the children of the people the children are in grave danger of catching some serious disease. I note that some 350 schools were built up to the time of the last Estimate, and that a considerable number of schools have been built since then; but there are a good many schools in need of repair, and many districts are in need of new schools. I would ask the Minister to do what he can in that respect and to try to provide more suitable conditions in general for the children.

As regards the conditions surrounding the schools, these are in many cases unsatisfactory. The playground is too small. A teacher, being enthusiastic perhaps, spends his spare time in growing flowers in part of the school yard, which is already small, and that still lessens the space for the children to play in. When that takes place they have to go to some adjoining field and trespass or they have to go on the public road. There is danger in either case, and, in the winter time, in the small school yard or playground, with the clayey condition of the soil in some districts, the children are continuously playing in a condition that inevitably leads to the diminishing of their powers of resistance to disease. In some cases, where the children have to travel several miles to school and are hungry, there is no doubt at all about it that they develop diseases that may in later life injure their health.

From the manner in which this Estimate has been received, it seems to be taken for granted that the policy of the Government is fairly satisfactory from the point of view of the Dáil, and at all events that the amount of money that is being spent is reasonable. I hold that any money spent on education is money well spent. That the policy of the Government in late years has done a good deal to increase the attendance at schools is undoubted. The figures given by the Minister are very satisfactory in that respect. As the Minister said, there are a few changes in the condition of the educational system. There has been an increase in the number of teachers, due to the increase of the number of pupils on the rolls, and he sums up by saying that the School Attendance Act has been a success. I consider that that is a very satisfactory condition of things—that the increase in the number of pupils attending schools has gone up so much.

As regards the speech of Deputy Fahy, I would like to make some remarks. Deputy Fahy and we here on these benches are of opinion that a Committee should be set up that would try to go into the question of the provision of books for children, and particularly so in connection with the development of Irish. We think that a series of books should be published under the direction of the Department of Education. These books should be suitable and pass the test and no other system or series of books should be allowed unless they agree with the series that have been drawn up. Some books at present in use, particularly in some of the junior classes, are not satisfactory. Some of these books do not contain what I consider is an essential of education and what others also hold to be an essential of education and that is nationality. You must try in any system of education to develop the spirit of nationality and the spirit of citizenship. There should be some attempt in the trend of the lessons in the school books towards that end.

In the teaching of mathematics in the schools a considerable change has taken place in the programme. Hitherto it used to be optional to teach some subjects including mathematical subjects, but of late it seems as if the Education Authorities make it compulsory to have mathematics taught. It is not as easy, therefore, all of a sudden and in a few short years to improve the condition of mathematics in the schools, and one of the reasons for that is due to the teachers, particularly in the secondary schools, not being so well fitted as they might be to teach mathematics through the medium of Irish. Sufficient attention is not being given to the mathematical side in the training of teachers of late years.

Then the question of the condition of Irish itself arises. It is admitted that some 6,000 teachers are yet unqualified to teach the language. If that is so, some decision must be taken to assist them in qualifying. We are told that the summer courses for the teachers are to be stopped. Then, I think, some other steps should be taken to give an opportunity to those teachers to qualify. What might be done to tide over the time between now and the time when the teachers will be thoroughly qualified to teach through the medium of Irish is a matter that the Minister might consider. It was suggested that teachers from the Gaeltacht should have permission to enter the schools and teach there; to go from school to school and teach Irish in them, or that perhaps one teacher from the Gaeltacht should be attached to each individual school. That system might be a satisfactory one if put into operation.

The material for the preparatory colleges has increased considerably from the point of view of the supply from the Gaeltacht. That is satisfactory. The Minister said there was an increase of 50 per cent. there. If that is so it is most satisfactory. Since the tendency is to conduct education through the medium of Irish, the preparatory colleges should make the material they get satisfactory from that point of view, and they should aim at that. These colleges should be in the Gaeltacht itself. There are some of these colleges here in Dublin, and it has been asked what rent these colleges pay.

Is there an intention of removing them to the Gaeltacht?

The training colleges, themselves, are improving as regards the manner in which they treat the Irish question, and in which they train the teachers at the present time to teach every subject through the medium of Irish. That also is satisfactory. It has been suggested by Deputy Fahy that one of these colleges should be established, or that a new college should be established for that purpose in the City of Galway. In the City of Galway you have an unique opportunity of co-ordinating the different systems of education. You have as a foundation, the Gaeltacht up to the doors of the city. Within a stone's throw of the city you are in the Gaeltacht. That forms a satisfactory environment for the teaching of Irish. You have a satisfactory system of education in the primary schools now. You have the secondary schools there also, and you have the University College doing, I hope, what is expected of it, considering that it has got special grants for the teaching of subjects through the medium of Irish. There are facilities offered there for linking up the different stages of education, and there is a unique opportunity afforded also of establishing a training college for girls in Galway.

Scholarships have been suppressed in some places. There may be reasons for suppressing them if they are not given to the persons who are entitled to them from an economic point of view. If, from an economic point of view, the children are entitled to these scholarships, I hold they should be continued and definite steps should be taken to see that the children of the poor are given scholarships provided they qualify for them. There should be provision made for a ladder in the scholarship system from the primary to the continuation school. If the step from the primary to the continuation school seems too great, some system should be evolved which would permit the pupil to spend more time in a secondary school. If a few years were spent in a secondary school after leaving the primary school, the pupil would get sufficient general education, and then he would profit more by a specialised course in a continuation technical school later on.

We are satisfied with the amalgamation scheme, and, where possible, it should be continued. We are anxious that some new arrangement in connection with pensions should be hurried up, and that provision should be made for lay teachers in convent and monastery schools and also industrial schools. Consideration should also be given in the case of teachers who have been transferred or promoted to inspectorships. We would also include junior assistant mistresses. It has been suggested that for the better provision of teachers in mathematics a scholarship should be provided in the University for three or four years. In that way the shortage of mathematical teachers would be overcome.

As regards the teaching of history, we feel that a real grasp of the elements of Irish history is not obtained under the system at present in operation. There should be a more comprehensive view taken of history, so that when a special period is selected for study it would fit into its position in proper perspective, and too much attention should not be devoted to any institutions that may have developed and that are spoken of and dwelt upon.

It has been said that considerable difficulty obtains as regards Latin in girls' schools, and that to overcome the difficulty of entering the University and being able to take up courses of study in Arts special provision should be made for courses in Latin lasting over two, three or four years in the secondary schools. As there is considerable difference between the leaving certificate and the matriculation standards, some steps should be taken to bring them more into accord. A better way of doing that, perhaps, would be to raise the standard of matriculation, and have that as the only means of entering the University. That would get over the difficulties that obtain now. I think that a step in that direction has already been made. As regards the national teachers, certain privileges allowed to them will not hold any longer than 1931 or 1932. I think that would be a step in the right direction. As regards the University Colleges and the provision for teaching faculties and subjects through the medium of Irish, a record should be submitted of the amount of work that they do and the manner in which, if they get any special money for this purpose for the teaching of subjects through the medium of the Irish language, an account of that expenditure should be returned to this House. Where money is given to a college or university for the development of the Irish language that money should be expended in that direction alone.

I should like to go back to the question of the health of the children attending schools. It is a most important aspect of education, especially in these days when the papers are filled with advertisements telling people how they can get into robust health by sending a certain sum of money to some address in London or elsewhere. Education from the health point of view should be general. It should not be carried on only by the provision of lectures. There might be certain lessons in the school books that would be a kind of propaganda helping to show the necessity for precautions to be taken by children for preserving their health. Teachers themselves can do a good deal without books by giving lessons of their own in health and hygiene. At the same time, people, through the children, should not be discouraged from recognising advances in medical science. They should be taught to see the difference between the spurious claims of people who advertise patent medicines and advances that are really made in medical science. They should be shown how to profit by a proper diet, and also the value of sunlight, warmth and exercise, and a sufficient amount of rest. These would be general lessons and they should be developed somewhat more than they are at present. Then the school building and surroundings should be satisfactory, and the conditions generally should be such as would lead the children to see what are the ideal conditions that lead to health. The conditions that they see around them in the working of the school, as well as the teaching that they get towards the development of health and hygiene will ensure that they will be able to see what is the best way to preserve the health of their bodies and also of their minds.

I should like to know whether it is the intention of the Minister that Votes 45, 46 and 47 should be taken together. Vote 45, which we are discussing, relates to the office of the Minister. Many Deputies have not confined themselves to that Vote, but have also dealt with Votes 46 and 47. Whilst I find myself in agreement with much that the Minister has said, I should like that many things would be included under this Vote that are not included in it. I should like to know where I stand so far as voting on the matter is concerned. I intend to vote for Nos. 45, 46 and 47, but for reasons which I will explain I intend to vote against No. 48, which deals with technical education. I should like to be informed whether a vote of that kind would be taken as voting against No. 45.

A question will have to be put on each Vote separately. That does not mean that there will necessarily be a separate debate on each Vote. I must put Votes 45, 46, 47 and 48 separately. The practice followed last year was that on Vote 45 a general debate took place on the office of the Minister and on primary, secondary and technical education. I am not enthusiastic about that procedure, but I do not know how I can get anything else done.

I desire to say, so far as the whole position in relation to education is concerned, that I am not at all satisfied that sufficient provision has been made for those attending primary schools. We have been told frequently that education is free, but so far as the very poor children attending schools are concerned, it is a very big drain on the resources of their parents to provide such things as school requisites, and in other ways much expense falls upon the working-class families who send children to national schools. Another matter which calls for very serious attention from the point of view of hygiene is the insanitary state of many national schools. So far as the cities are concerned, the Department has done a great deal, but much remains to be done as far as the national schools in the rural areas are concerned. In many parts of the County Cork, and even in the borough, which I represent, and which extends for many miles outside the city, there are schools which have no proper sanitary accommodation and which are ill-ventilated. In wet weather the roofs let in the rain, and the conditions under which many children have to attend school are very bad indeed. However, I have indicated that it is my intention to vote for Vote 45 for the Office of the Minister for Education, and so on and for Votes 46 and 47, but I do not want to be taken, seeing that I am in agreement with these three parts of one whole, as opposing in any way the efforts of the Minister to improve the educational facilities of our common country. For that reason although I got up intending to say that I wanted to register a protest and to vote against the portion dealing with technical instruction, I find myself now in the position that whether I like it or not I shall have to vote for the whole Vote for the Ministry of Education. The Ceann Comhairle shakes his head, but I really understood that that was so.

The Votes will be put separately.

I do think, at any rate, that the money spent on education is money well spent. It may be said that we have reached a stage in this country when, perhaps, less money might be spent on university education and when more money should be spent, and we should concentrate more upon, technical instruction. I, also, know that there is at least one county council in the Twenty-six Counties which instead of voting sums of money for scholarships for university education in the direction of turning out qualified engineers or medical men or lawyers, have suggested that the money should be diverted in the direction of technical education. I understand they advocate scholarships tenable in Dublin or elsewhere. It is on record that only a very small portion of students attending the technical schools in this country take out the full technological course. There is a further course known as the full technological and teachers' course. I am more concerned with those who should take the full technological course. As I have said, there is but a very small percentage of the pupils attending and who are registered at the various technical schools who take the full technological course. That is due to many causes, but the principal cause is that with the exception of Dublin, where there is at least some co-operation between employers and apprentices and the school authorities, no other authority caters for apprentices by way of day classes. I do know that we have day classes established in Cork and possibly in Waterford and other centres for lace making and that kind of thing and for domestic economy, and so on, but so far as engineering classes, joinery classes, electrical engineering classes are concerned we find that outside Dublin there are no established classes for those crafts that I have mentioned amongst others.

The report of the Technical Instruction Commission recommended the extension of a scheme of technical education in Dublin, Cork and Limerick, to include full-time day courses of a secondary technical character, and that these courses should be of three years' duration and open to students who had a full-time continuation or secondary course up to the intermediate certificate course. Here again I have to revert to the question of national education in a very brief way. It is found that many of the pupils attending these technical schools cannot take full advantage of the opportunities offered because of the fact that they have had to leave school at a very early age. It naturally follows that they cannot absorb everything that they should be able to absorb in their first year of the technological course. Many of these young people, because of economic circumstances, instead of beginning with their technological course have to go into classes known as the "junior tech.," to be taught there what one might describe as the rudiments of national school education. That is the tragedy of this country. It is very tragic when we consider that while we are expending, and will continue to expend, many thousands of pounds for the purposes of technical education, unfortunately many of those people for whom it is provided are not able to take full advantage of the course by reason of the fact that they have not got to the foundation by way of decent national school education before entering the technical school.

I regret that there is a decrease in the amount allotted this year for technical instruction in the Saorstát, because again, so far as Cork is concerned at any rate, we have a very excellent school of commerce, efficiently managed, but the accommodation is not nearly sufficient for the number of pupils attending, and they are very badly housed indeed. Now a new and more commodious building is needed, and in view of the fact that this Estimate has been cut down, I feel that we have been put back somewhat in our hopes and aspirations that something would be done in the way of giving us a new building so far as commercial education is concerned. In this connection we should not economise too rigidly. By all means let us have economy, but let us have economy with efficiency. I think there are two matters in the State with which we should not interfere without very grave reason, and these two things are education and any institution in the State which has been set up to maintain law and order. It may be considered out of order to refer to that, but there are two institutions in the State upon which I for one would not like to see false economy practised, and I call it nothing else but false economy to interfere with these institutions.

Isé barúil a lán daoine go mba cheart iarracht láidir do dhéanamh chun na scoileanna uilig do Ghaolú. Rinneadh gearán ag Comhdháil na Gaedhilge tá cúpla seachtain ó shoin go raibh scoileanna ann ag fáil airgid o'n Stát agus gan iad ag dhéanamh a ndicheall ar son na teangan. Is dó liom nách bhfuil an sprid ná an "atmosphere" ceart sna sgoileanna. Ba chóir múinteoir o'n Ghaeltacht a bheith in gach scoil. Gidh go bhfuil eolas maith ar an nGaedhilg ag a lán múinteoirí, tuigeann na páistí nach bhfuil an teanga acu o'n chliabhán agus, mar gheall ar sin, níl muinghin ceart acu asta. Tá fhios ag na páistí nách bhfuil an Ghaedhilg chó flúirseach acu agus mar tá an Béarla.

Do réir mar chluinim, tá cuid de na meán-scoileanna agus gan ach cuid bheag de sna macaibh léighinn ag foghluim na Gaedhilge ionnta— agus is le haghaidh seruduithe dá bhfuil an Gaedhilge riachtanach atá na mic léighinn sco ag foghluim.

Mar adubhairt Teachtaí eíle, is deacair do daoinibh bochta leabhair do cheannach dá gclainn—go háirithe nuair atá athrú ar na leabhraí ó bhlian go blian. Tá cúrsaí i matematice agus i Laidin agus abhair léighinn mar sin nách mbionn aon athrú orra. Ba chóir téacs-leabhair seasta a shocrú i gcóir na adhbhair léighinn seo i dtreo agus go mbeadh na páistí in ann úsáid a bhaint asta i ndiaidh a chéile.

Tairgim anois go dtugtar tuairise ar a rinneadh.

Ordered: That Progress be reported.
The Dáil went out of Committee.
Progress reported.
Committee to sit again to-morrow.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until Friday at 10.30 a.m.
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