I move the Second Reading of this Bill. Following the change by which an ordinary Seanad election takes place by the members of the Dáil and the Seanad voting together, Constitution (Amendment No. 11) Bill, which is at present before the Seanad and has passed the Report Stage there, provides that by-elections in the case of the Seanad will be carried out by the members of the Dáil and the Seanad voting together, instead of what occurs at present by members of the Seanad only voting together. The present Bill is to arrange the election machinery. That machinery is being arranged in harmony with the Seanad Electoral Act of 1928. That Act provides for the procedure under which an ordinary Seanad election is to take place. It is now necessary to have legislation under which by-elections to the Seanad will take place. The procedure enshrined in the Bill now before this House sets up the machinery for by-elections which is in harmony with the machinery set up for a general Seanad election under the Seanad Electoral Act of 1928.
Seanad By-Elections Bill, 1929—Second Stage.
I do not suppose that it is necessary for me to announce that Deputies on this side of the House will oppose this Bill. We are opposed to it on various grounds, most of which were clearly indicated by us when the various Constitution (Amendment) Bills were on their way through this House. We are opposed to the existence of the Seanad altogether. We do not want to see that body continuing to exist, and because of that we do not want to see elections take place to fill any vacancies that may occur. As we do not want the Seanad to exist for the reasons that we have already pointed out, then we think that one of the easiest ways of getting rid of it is to refuse to fill vacancies that may occur, and to let it die out in the course of time. As the principle of this Bill is to arrange for the holding of by-elections for the filling of vacancies that may occur in the Seanad we are opposed to it, because we do not think that such elections should be held Even if we could be reconciled to the idea of the existence of the Seanad, and reconciled to the idea of holding elections to fill vacancies in that body, we would be still opposed to this Bill because of the manner in which it is proposed that these elections should be carried out. On many occasions already we have, I think, asserted our view that the Seanad should be elected by the members of the Dáil alone voting, and that members of the Seanad should not be given power in any form to reproduce themselves. That power they now have, and it is proposed to amplify that power by this Bill, and we, therefore, are opposed to it.
We have already asserted the principle that if the Seanad is to exist at all it should only exist in a form which would clearly indicate its subordinance to the Dáil. The members of the Dáil are elected by the people. The members of the Seanad are not. The members of the Dáil have undoubtedly the right, if they choose to exercise it, to delegate portion of their power to another institution. The members of the Seanad have no such right. We therefore are opposed to this Bill on the grounds that it includes in the electoral college the members of the Seanad themselves. Leaving aside even the question of what one might call the principle, there are still strong objections to this Bill. We are, of course, vehemently opposed to the sub-section in Section 4 which imposes an obligation on candidates for election to the Seanad to subscribe to a certain form of test before they are nominated. We think that principle is bad, and we opposed it when it was being applied to the Dáil. We will oppose it on every occasion when an attempt is made to apply it. It is another indication of the peculiar manner in which the minds of Ministers work. They feel that they can by legislation, proscription and enactment, mould the minds of the people into accepting ideas which are theirs. They cannot do it. It is about time that they made up their minds that they cannot get people to change their convictions and alter their opinions just because the members of the Executive Council, with the majority that they have in this House, pass enactments ordering them to do so. The section to which I am referring is of the same type as the Bill which we discussed yesterday and the day before, and because we opposed the one we are also opposed to the other. The machinery which this Bill proposes to set up to deal with by-elections to the Seanad is identical in nearly every respect, I think, with the machinery set up to deal with the ordinary triennial elections to the Seanad.
The Minister for Local Government will recollect that when the Seanad Electoral Bill was going through the House I informed him that the machinery he was setting up would not assist in the preservation of the secrecy of the ballot. I pointed out that it would be possible, for example, for a person to know the number of the vote cast by each member at a Seanad election. The Minister informed us he was taking steps to ensure that would not happen. What steps did he take? He got an alphabetical list of the members of the Seanad and the Dáil. I think that the first person who got a paper, No. 1, was Deputy Aird, and so on in alphabetical sequence down the list. As a test, I remember writing to a number of the members of our own Party informing them of their numbers, and I was right in every instance. It was simply a matter of making a duplicate list and numbering it consecutively from top to bottom. That is the secrecy which the Minister took steps to preserve. It was possible, I think, for any person present at the counting of the votes to know how anyone voted. I intended, if my other engagements permitted, and if I got permission, to be present at the counting of the votes, to note the particular manner in which the Minister for Local Government voted, in order to inform him how he had voted, but I was not able to get there.
Did you know his number?
Certainly. I could tell you in a few minutes. I could easily tell by making out an alphabetical list of voters and numbering them consecutively. That was the safeguard taken to secure the secrecy of the ballot, and the same safeguards are provided in this Bill. We are not in favour of secret elections, as we prefer that voters in this type of election should vote openly, because the elected representatives of the people should take open and public responsibility for all their acts. If they take the responsibility of putting certain types of individuals into the position where they can influence the course of legislation they should do it before the eyes of their constituents, and in such a manner as to let their constituents know the full extent of the responsibility they are taking. If elections are to be secret, and the members of the Executive Council like secrecy in this matter as in all others, they should take steps to ensure that the ballot paper will be secret to everybody, and not merely to those Parties in opposition to them, who cannot appoint the returning officer or be present at the counting of the votes. I know the returning officer to be an honest and honourable man, but if he wished I think he could have supplied any person with a complete list of how any member of the Dáil or Seanad voted on the occasion of the last election. We are opposed to the idea of a secret election. We are opposed to an election by the Dáil and Seanad. When the Seanad Electoral Bill was going through the Dáil we opposed it, because we were opposed to an election by the Dáil and Seanad. We are opposed to Seanad elections at all. We find it hard to find anything in this Bill which we could support, and, therefore, we will vote against it on Second Reading.
The Minister to conclude.
There is nothing to reply to——
Before the Minister concludes, I just wish to say that the members of the Labour Party will vote against this Bill, as they do not agree that members of the Seanad should have the right, as Deputy Lemass says, to reproduce themselves. We believe that vacancies for the Seanad should be filled by this House, and this House alone.
There is nothing to reply to in regard to this particular Bill, except what Deputy Lemass said with regard to the secrecy of the voting at the Seanad election. I would ask Deputies to get a report of what he said on the question of secrecy——
Is the Minister replying?
Yes, on the question of secrecy.
This is very quick. A number of members here want to speak on this Bill.
The sooner they come into the ring the better.
The Minister was called upon to conclude. Deputy Morrissey asked to be allowed to speak before the Minister concluded, and the Minister gave way. The Minister had spoken a sentence or two before Deputy Morrissey rose.
I am pretty near the Chair and my ears are fairly sharp. I did not hear that. The only possibility there could have been of my not hearing you was that for a moment I sat back to speak to Deputy Boland.
The Minister could do nothing else.
I thought he was answering a question that was raised.
On the general matter, there is nothing I am called upon to reply to. The question of secrecy has been raised. I would ask Deputies who have any suspicion in the matter to take the possibility of what Deputy Lemass has said when they see it in print, and find what evidence they can see there that the secrecy of the Seanad election is not perfect; and such evidence as they find there to that effect can be discussed on a subsequent stage of this Bill.
May I ask the Minister a question? I sent out just now for a copy of the recent Constitution Act, because I wanted to see whether the power, for instance in regard to the taking of a plebiscite, still rests in constitutional matters. There is a constitutional change in the Bill which is before the Seanad at present, and, even if the Seanad passes that Bill, it is possible that it could be put to the people. We are proposing here to pass the Second Reading of this Bill on the assumption that a certain Bill before the Seanad is going to become law. To my mind we ought not to do anything of the kind. We ought, first of all, to see what is going to happen in the Seanad before we pass what is, in its very nature, a consequential Bill. We ought first of all see whether there is going to be an Act with which this Bill will be in accordance. I think that the Minister mentioned that the Bill in the Seanad has only got to a certain stage, and I object to this anticipation of legislation. We have no certainty that the Bill is going to pass the Seanad, and, even if it does, I think that by one of the recent Constitution Acts it would be possible to put the matter to the electorate as a whole.
What is the Deputy's question to the Minister?
My question is: how is he prepared to ask the House to assent to a Second Reading of this Bill when, in fact, it is based on the supposition that a certain Bill before the Seanad will become an Act?
We have Deputies opposing this particular Bill and objecting to anticipated legislation. The Bill in the Seanad proposing a change in the Constitution is a Bill which anticipates that in order to carry it into effect subsequent legislation will be produced. The Bill before the Seanad has been brought to the Report Stage and has been purposely postponed by the Seanad for three weeks until this Bill, which is now before us, leaves the Dáil, so that the Seanad will not be in the position of passing a Bill declaring that casual vacancies in the Seanad shall be filled by the Seanad and Dáil voting together, and then because, perhaps, by a snap division caused by Deputies mobilising or not mobilising on a Friday morning, find that this House has refused to pass the necessary legislation enabling that to be done.
I have listened to many strange explanations, but one such as that just given by the Minister for Local Government I have never before listened to.
The Deputy cannot resume the debate now.
I suggest that fair time ought to be given by the Chair to enable this to be discussed. I want to make a protest.
There is no use in the Deputy making protests about the Chair. Deputy Lemass made a speech and sat down. Then I called upon the Minister to conclude the debate, but Deputy Morrissey intervened and the Minister replied. That concluded the debate.
I want to protest.
The Minister has concluded the debate, and there is no use in the Deputy protesting. There it is.
I say that it is unfair conduct upon the part of the Chair.
Deputy de Valera will have to withdraw that remark.
I will not withdraw.
Again. I have to call on the Deputy to withdraw.
Again, as I do believe that it is most unfair and would be an injustice to our Party, I cannot withdraw that remark.
Then I have to call upon the House to adjudge upon the conduct of the Deputy.
I move that Deputy de Valera be suspended from the service of the House.
Tá.
- Aird, William P.
- Anthony, Richard.
- Beckett, James Walter.
- Bennett, George Cecil.
- Blythe, Ernest.
- Bourke, Séamus A.
- Brennan, Michael.
- Broderick, Henry.
- Brodrick, Seán.
- Byrne, John Joseph.
- Carey, Edmund.
- Cole, John James.
- Collins-O'Driscoll, Mrs. Margt.
- Conlon, Martin.
- Connolly, Michael P.
- Cosgrave, William T.
- Daly, John.
- Davis, Michael.
- Lynch, Finian.
- Mathews, Arthur Patrick.
- McDonogh, Martin.
- McFadden, Michael Og.
- Morrissey, Daniel.
- Mulcahy, Richard.
- Murphy, James E.
- Myles, James Sproule.
- Nally, Martin Michael.
- Nolan, John Thomas.
- O'Connell, Richard.
- O'Connor, Bartholomew.
- O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
- O'Hanlon, John F.
- De Loughrey, Peter.
- Dolan, James N.
- Doyle, Edward.
- Doyle, Peadar Seán.
- Duggan, Edmund John.
- Dwyer, James.
- Fitzgerald, Desmond.
- Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
- Good, John.
- Haslett, Alexander.
- Hassett, John J.
- Heffernan, Michael R.
- Hennessy, Thomas.
- Hennigan, John.
- Henry, Mark.
- Jordan, Michael.
- Kelly, Patrick Michael.
- Law, Hugh Alexander.
- O'Higgins, Thomas.
- O'Leary, Daniel.
- O'Mahony, Dermot Gun.
- O'Reilly, John J.
- O'Sullivan, Gearoid.
- O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
- Rice, Vincent.
- Shaw, Patrick W.
- Sheehy, Timothy (West Cork).
- Thrift, William Edward.
- Tierney, Michael.
- White, John.
- White, Vincent Joseph.
Níl.
- Allen, Denis.
- Blaney, Neal.
- Boland, Gerald.
- Boland, Patrick.
- Bourke, Daniel.
- Briscoe, Robert.
- Buckley, Daniel.
- Carney, Frank.
- Carty, Frank.
- Cassidy, Archie J.
- Corry, Martin John.
- Derrig, Thomas.
- Fahy, Frank.
- French, Seán.
- Gorry, Patrick J.
- Goulding, John.
- Hogan, Patrick (Clare).
- Houlihan, Patrick.
- Kent, William R.
- Killilea, Mark.
- Kilroy, Michael.
- Lemass, Seán F.
- Little, Patrick John.
- Maguire, Ben.
- Moore, Séamus.
- O'Dowd, Patrick Joseph.
- O'Kelly, Seán T.
- O'Reilly, Matthew.
- Ruttledge, Patrick J.
- Ryan, James.
- Sexton, Martin.
- Smith, Patrick.
- Walsh, Richard.
- Ward, Francis C.
I must accordingly ask Deputy de Valera to withdraw from the House.
then withdrew from the House.
Will the Ceann Comhairle tell the House now what the row was about?
The Question is: "That the Seanad By-Elections Bill be now read a Second Time."
On a point of order, before you put the Question, I would be glad if you would tell the House whether it is competent for the Dáil to give a Second Reading to a Bill which is at variance with the existing Constitution.
It is not for the Chair to decide whether a Bill is at variance with the existing Constitution. Therefore that is not a point of order.
I would point out that this Bill proposes to enact a method of election for the Seanad which is at variance with the existing Constitution.
If the Deputy's point is that the Bill is at variance with the existing Constitution, that is not a matter for the Chair to decide.
Then who should decide?
The Courts.
Then this is an illegal act we are taking part in now.
Tá.
- Aird, William P.
- Beckett, James Walter.
- Bennett, George Cecil.
- Blythe, Ernest.
- Bourke, Séamus A.
- Brennan, Michael.
- Brodrick, Seán.
- Byrne, John Joseph.
- Carey, Edmund.
- Cole, John James.
- Collins-O'Driscoll, Mrs. Margt.
- Conlon, Martin.
- Connolly, Michael P.
- Cosgrave, William T.
- Davis, Michael.
- De Loughrey, Peter.
- Dolan, James N.
- Doyle, Peadar Seán.
- Duggan, Edmund John.
- Dwyer, James.
- Fitzgerald, Desmond.
- Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
- Good, John.
- Haslett, Alexander.
- Hassett, John J.
- Heffernan, Michael R.
- Hennessy, Thomas.
- Hennigan, John.
- Henry, Mark.
- Jordan, Michael.
- Kelly, Patrick Michael.
- Law, Hugh Alexander.
- Lynch, Finian.
- Mathews, Arthur Patrick.
- McDonogh, Martin.
- McFadden, Michael Og.
- Mulcahy, Richard.
- Murphy, James E.
- Myles, James Sproule.
- Nally, Martin Michael.
- Nolan, John Thomas.
- O'Connell, Richard.
- O'Connor, Bartholomew.
- O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
- O'Hanlon, John F.
- O'Higgins, T.
- O'Leary, Daniel.
- O'Mahony, Dermot Gun.
- O'Reilly, John J.
- O'Sullivan, Gearoid.
- O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
- Reynolds, Patrick.
- Rice, Vincent.
- Roddy, Martin.
- Shaw, Patrick W.
- Sheehy, Timothy (West Cork).
- Thrift, William Edward.
- Tierney, Michael.
- White, John.
- White, Vincent Joseph.
Níl.
- Allen, Denis.
- Anthony, Richard.
- Blaney, Neal.
- Boland, Gerald.
- Boland, Patrick.
- Bourke, Daniel.
- Brady, Seán.
- Briscoe, Robert.
- Broderick, Henry.
- Buckley, Daniel.
- Carty, Frank.
- Cassidy, Archie J.
- Corish, Richard.
- Corry, Martin John.
- Davin, William.
- Derrig, Thomas.
- Doyle, Edward.
- Fahy, Frank.
- French, Seán.
- Gorry, Patrick J.
- Goulding, John.
- Hogan, Patrick (Clare).
- Houlihan, Patrick.
- Jordan, Stephen.
- Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
- Kent, William R.
- Kerlin, Frank.
- Killilea, Mark.
- Kilroy, Michael.
- Lemass, Seán F.
- Little, Patrick John.
- MacEntee, Seán.
- Moore, Séamus.
- Morrissey, Daniel.
- O'Dowd, Patrick Joseph.
- O'Kelly, Seán T.
- O'Reilly, Matthew.
- Powell, Thomas P.
- Ruttledge, Patrick J.
- Ryan, James.
- Sexton, Martin.
- Smith, Patrick.
- Walsh, Richard.
- Ward, Francis C.