Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 5 Jun 1929

Vol. 30 No. 7

In Committee on Finance. - Vote No. 33—Prisons.

Mr. Blythe

I move:—

"Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £66,062 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1930, chun Costaisí Príosún agus Fundúireachtaí Borstal, agus coinneáilsuas na nGealt gCuirpthe a coinnitear in Ospidéil Mheabhar-Ghalar Cheanntair. (17 agus 18 Vict., c. 76; 34 agus 35 Vict., c. 112, a. 6; 40 agus 41 Vict., c. 49; 47 agus 48 Vict., c. 36; 61 agus 62 Vict., c. 60; 1 Edw. VII., c. 17, a. 3; 8 Edw. VII., c.59; agus 4 agus 5 Geo. V., c. 58.)"

"That a sum not exceeding £66,062 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1930, for the expenses of Prisons and Borstal Institutions and the maintenance of Criminal Lunatics confined in District Mental Hospitals. (17 and 18 Vict., c. 76; 34 and 35 Vict., c. 112, s. 6; 40 and 41 Vict., c. 49; 47 and 48 Vict., c. 36; 61 and 62 Vict., c. 60; 1 Edw. VII., c. 17, s. 3; 8 Edw. VII., c. 59; and 4 and 5 Geo. V., c. 58.)"

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

The Vote for the present financial year shows a net decrease of £12,647 on the amount voted last year. No provision has been made in the Estimate this year for expenses of the Headquarter Staff. In December last the General Prisons Board was dissolved and its powers and functions were transferred to the Minister for Justice and the Office of the General Prisons Board was abolished. The administrative work in connection with prisons is now done in the Headquarters Office of the Ministry of Justice. As a result of the rearrangement of the administrative staff consequent on the abolition of the Board, an annual saving between £1,500 and £2,000 has been effected. This is in addition to the decrease of £12,647 shown in the Estimate. Sub-head A, "Pay and Allowances of Officers," shows a decrease of £3,638 mainly as a result of certain reductions in the Prisons Staff which it has been possible to effect. In Sub-head B, "Victualling," owing to the steady decrease in the number of prisoners, it was estimated that during the current financial year provision need only be made for 735 as against 800 last year, and there has consequently been a reduction of £1,660. In Sub-head C, "Clothing, Bedding and Furniture," there is a reduction of £220:

In Sub-head D, "Medicines," there is no alteration. In Sub-head E, "Fuel, Light and Water," there is a reduction of £770. The figure for fuel, light and water is made up as follows: fuel £4,350, light £2,700, water £700. In Sub-head F, "Rents," there is no change. The amount of £205 is made up as follows: Clonmel Borstal Institution. £139, Sligo £52, Kilmainham £7 and Daingean £6. Sub-head G, "Escort and Conveyance of Prisoners" bears the cost of escort and conveyance of all prisoners after the first order of committal is made until final discharge from prison. As a consequence of arrangements with the railway companies for the granting of special facilities to members of the Gárda Síochána and prison officers escorting prisoners, it is hoped that it will be possible to effect a considerable saving in this sub-head, which shows a reduction of £2,250 as compared with last year. Sub-head H, "Ordinary Repairs," shows a reduction of £200. HH is a new sub-head which provides for certain sewerage improvements at Portlaoighise. The present system is very defective and has given rise to many complaints. The local authorities are now laying down a sewer outside the prison and the sum of £450 is provided in the Estimate for the purpose of effecting the necessary modifications in the present sewerage system to enable it to be connected with the new sewer.

Sub-heads I, J, K, L, M, N, O, and P, call for no special consideration. Sub-head N, shows a reduction of £1,000. That is in consequence of the decrease in the number of criminal lunatics in District Mental Hospitals. Sub-head Q shows a decrease of £5,000 in the estimated amounts which will be required for the purchase of raw material for the manufacturing department and for the farm. It will be, however, observed, that this decrease is offset by a corresponding increase shown in the Sub-head R—Appropriations-in-Aid—in the anticipated receipts from the manufacturing department and the farm. Last year a sum of £3,500 was provided for the purchase and the enclosure of additional land at Portlaoighise Prison. It was found impossible to acquire the necessary land by negotiation at a reasonable figure and the proposal has been dropped for the present. The owners of land in the neighbourhood of the prison were asking what seemed to be a prohibitive price for their land, a price far and away above the market value of the land and in the circumstances we considered it better, although this is a reform which I think would be a very great reform, to defer the scheme until we can purchase land at its real value. Of course, Deputies understand that if persons—one can hardly, in a way, blame them—think that a purchaser is frightfully keen to get possession, they run up the price. They want to get very much more than the articles which they are selling are really worth. I am afraid that that is a consideration which strikes the mind just as forcibly when the Government is the purchaser as when private individuals are the purchasers.

A Deputy

A little more so.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

I said as forcibly. Last year when I was proposing the Estimate I gave a history of prison law and prison reform in this country. I am not adopting a similar course this year because it is such a short time ago that it would be merely a waste of time if I repeated what I said then.

Mr. Fahy

I move the motion standing in Deputy Ruttledge's name, that the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration. It is pleasing to hear that there has been a reduction of some £12,000 on the Estimate, but considering the reduction in the present population of the prisons, it strikes me that the reduction in expenditure has not moved pari passu with the reduction in numbers. Despite the fact that the Minister states that last year he entered at length into the history of prison reform, I think he might have been a little more informative in his statement to-day, particularly in view of the many questions raised regarding prisons and prison treatment during the past year. Into these questions I do not now intend to go, but there are some points on which I should like fuller information. In the Estimate itself there are a few points that might well be explained more fully. One is the fact that travelling expenses so far show an increase. Secondly, what is the meaning of the allowance to officers for fingerprinting and photographing prisoners? Is that overtime, or what is the reason for it? There is also an allowance to officers as clerks to visiting committees. Do they carry out such work or transact such business during the ordinary, fixed hours, and why should extra remuneration be given? I should like to know also whether there is segregation of the first offenders in all the prisons from recidivists. If there is not, of course, there is danger of contamination. What reform has been effected regarding the education of prisoners? It seems to me that there is still in the Free State prison system largely the idea of punishment. It would be much better to have the idea of reform and restraint such as has been adopted in England and in certain States in America. In America they call it the "uplift" movement. In many cases there is a lot of humbug attached to the word "uplift." I do not believe in making a prison a home from home—though for many of the unfortunate people who go to prison it is often better than home, and we have heard of cases where people commit offences in order to get into prison in winter time. I am not seeking to have the lot of the average prisoner made as good as that of the average inoffensive citizen, but I think there is room for reform, particularly in the case of those who are serving sentences of penal servitude.

It would be well if the report of the Commission for the past year were available. The latest figures I have got are for 1927-28. The figures for 1927 are gratifying. In 1924 there were nineteen prisoners per 10,000 of the population. In 1927, that figure had been reduced to fourteen. In 1924 there were 134 in penal servitude, and in 1927 only 60. For robbery under arms the number of prisoners was: For 1924, 117, and for 1927, 14. These figures do not appear to bear out the terrifying statements made here, from time to time, by the Minister for Justice as to the wave of crime that was passing over the country. criminal conspiracies and so on. The one striking paragraph in the report is that which sets out that of the offences committed in all prisons, 131 occurred in Portlaoighse. Perhaps the Minister would be good enough to explain that—whether it is a specially obstreperous type of prisoner that is sent there, or whether there is something radically wrong or perhaps he would explain what led to the mutiny there.

Much more, I think, should be done in the matter of education. Penal servitude prisoners in England are getting lectures and so on, and there is an earnest attempt being made to reform them. We have not got so far here. As regards visitors, I should like to know whether or not they have power to order the punishment of prisoners. In cases of severe punishment, have the sentences to be sanctioned by the Minister? That is the case in England. If a prisoner is sentenced severely for an offence committed in prison such sentence has to be confirmed by the Secretary of State before it is inflicted. I should like to know whether flogging has been absolutely abolished in the prisons. Is it possible for anyone, except the warders, visitors or governors, to visit prisoners or punish them in any of the prisons? Rumours are afloat that such things are possible. I should like to have a definite assurance from the Minister on that.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

A definite assurance as to what?

Mr. Fahy

That, for instance, members of the C.I.D. would not have access to prisoners in their cells. I notice that during the last year for which figures are available there were fifty visits paid by sanctioned visitors. At what hours were these visits paid? Are these visitors at liberty to go in at any hour? Have such visitors powers to suspend officers from duty if they find that they committed offences or ill-treated prisoners? I should like to know if any such suspensions have taken place. Are complaints heard from prisoners in private, no prison official being present? In that particular year seventeen prisoners were sent from prison to mental hospitals. Visitors have power, I understand, to interfere when they find that prison treatment is likely to affect the minds of prisoners. I understand it is the duty also of the medical officer of the prison to interfere in such cases and have such prisoners placed under special observation. Was that done in these cases? How many of those cases of prisoners becoming insane can be traced to the days before they were sentenced or imprisoned?

In one case, there is an increase in the numbers. That is in the Borstal institution at Clonmel. There is a twenty per cent. increase over 1924. An explanation of that would be desirable. Last year, I think, the Minister admitted that the building was not quite suitable. I wonder if he has considered using other premises. There must be many such available. There was too much the air of a prison about the building, and that is bad for these juveniles from 16 to 21. I should like also to know what co-operation there is between the Department of Justice and the Discharged Prisoners' Aid Societies—whether they consult together and how far such societies receive financial aid from the Government?

On the whole Vote, I think, there is much room for reform. I do not think the Government of the Free State is keeping pace with many States in America or with England in this matter, particularly in their treatment of those sentenced to penal servitude. For that reason and others—but for that reason in particular—I move that this Vote be referred back.

Mr. T.J. O'Connell

I have an open mind on Deputy Fahy's motion and I was waiting to hear arguments which would help me to come to a decision as to how I should vote on this question. There does not appear to be any further argument forthcoming. Candidly, I must say that the case made by Deputy Fahy for a reference back—I think he himself would admit it—is not a strong one. In any event, it is such that I could not agree, upon it, to have the Vote referred back. If I heard a strong argument in favour of the motion which has just been moved I would certainly be prepared to vote for it, but no such argument has been advanced.

There was one matter touched upon by the Minister in his opening statement which I would like to have further information about. He referred to receipts from manufacturing departments of the prisons.

I would like to know how these receipts were obtained. Do they come from the sale of articles manufactured in the prison? If so, do these things manufactured in the prison compete with goods manufactured under ordinary working conditions? I would be very much surprised if they did. If the Minister would explain it would relieve my mind of a certain doubt in the matter. It arose from the particular way in which he referred to this question of receipts from the manufacturing departments of the prisons. In that connection, I wonder could he give us any information as to the operation of the Foreign Prison-Made Goods Act, 1897, which was an Act prohibiting the importation of foreign prison-made goods. I do not suppose any case ever arose in which it was necessary to put it into operation, but I was asked some time ago as to whether I knew anything about it, and I thought I would take this opportunity of asking the Minister.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

Of course that has nothing to do with our Department. I think you should ask the Minister for External Affairs about that.

Mr. O'Connell

Is it possible that these goods can come from a neighbouring country?

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

That would be a Customs matter.

Mr. O'Connell

I am glad to see, as indicating, I hope, the growing peaceful condition of the country, that it has been found possible to reduce this Estimate very considerably. Of course I do not agree with Deputy Fahy that it would be possible in all cases to have that reduction proceeding pari passu with the reduction in prisoners. That would not be possible unless you found it possible to close down a prison altogether, because the overhead expenses of maintaining 50 prisoners would be as great as if you were maintaining 70 or 80 prisoners; but in so far as it would mean the closing down of some of our prisons a reduction could be made, and I dare say it is because that happened that reductions have been made, to some extent in any case. Perhaps the Minister would tell us whether there are any disused buildings or old jails still on hands and whether he hopes to dispose of them, profitably or otherwise, in the near future, and if his Department does not deal with them, which Department does.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

The Board of Works.

Mr. O'Connell

I do not see that the Estimate, on the whole, calls for any great criticism in the matter of policy. It would be on that line I would be inclined to vote for a reference back. I do not think that any serious criticism can be made of the Vote as it appears. Perhaps the Minister would tell us whether any examination has been made by his Department into possible prison reforms. I think this is a thing on which we should proceed with a certain amount of care. I would not be inclined to accept willingly the lines of reforms which have been followed by other countries without giving the matter very close and careful examination and finding out whether or not the conditions which may have been found to be advantageous in one country were equally applicable to this country. I believe there is room for progress along that line. The majority of prisoners are, I think, people who might be classed as first or second offenders, and the idea we should aim at in these cases should be to reform rather than to punish. Unless there are some further arguments in favour of the motion I cannot see my way to support reference back.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

Deputy Fahy raised some questions of administration. He first asked why allowances were made to certain warders. If a warder has a special aptitude and is doing work out of the ordinary he gets a slight extra remuneration. I think that is only right and fair. If a man has specialised in fingerprinting, photography or anything of that kind, it is quite right that he should receive some small sum in recognition of the fact that he is doing more highly skilled work than the ordinary prison warder. That applies generally to all the scales of allowances.

Deputy Fahy also asked about the segregation which takes place in prisons. There is very careful segregation. First offenders are kept by themselves; they are not allowed in any way to intermingle or mix with older or hardened prisoners.

Deputy Fahy also talked about the fact that there was a considerable number of punishments one year in Portlaoighise. That was because a very abnormal state of affairs arose. It appears it was stated in June, 1927, that Fianna Fáil having increased their poll considerably and being closer to the Cumann na nGaedheal poll than they had been ever before the Government was badly shaken and these gentlemen thought—all of them persons who had been condemned for crimes of violence but who called themselves political prisoners—they were going to become top dogs and they had a strike. That lasted for some months but they discovered after a bit that the Government was firmly enough established to be able to maintain order in this country, and the strike gradually died away. These extra punishments that happened during that year were entirely occasioned by this very foolish strike which these misguided men entered upon.

Mr. Fahy

May I ask the Minister a question? The Minister said "it was stated" that because Fianna Fáil had got numbers close to the Cumann na nGaedheal numbers this affair happened. By whom was it stated?

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

By the prisoners themselves. They made it perfectly clear that the Government was shaken, and they would have to be released. They thought the Government were not strong owing to the result of the election. They made that perfectly clear.

Mr. Fahy

Might not the reason for their stand have been that they were not recognised as political prisoners?

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

They had been in a considerable time. Practically all of them were in before the election, and it was only after the election that this strike took place. The Deputy talked about nothing being done for educating prisoners in Portlaoighise, and said that was very important. Of course, it depends a great deal on what you mean by education. If you mean by education, teaching to read and write—a certain amount of what I call book knowledge—that is, of course, of some importance, but the importance of it can be enormously exaggerated, because what we want to do in prison is really to get men into the habit of steady, regular work.

What you want to do is, not to educate them in the sense of developing their intellect, but in the direction of strengthening their characters, and also it is wiser to get them, if you can, on the moral ground to play straight, which, of course, is what the chaplain endeavours to do, and in that he is assisted by the prison officials; and to show them that it is wiser for them to go straight and to train them so that when they go out they will have strength of character, so that they will be able to keep straight. That is the reason why they are getting a certain amount of regular work in the day. As I said before, I think the most effective means of attaining that end is really outdoor labour in which they will be more interested than in indoor labour, though, of course, a certain amount of that is necessary. Our object is not punishment. If Deputy Fahy talked with any member of the visiting committees and did not read any papers, whose sole object is to attack the present system in this country——

Mr. Fahy

Might I state that I do not read any weekly papers of any political shade whatever, if that is what the Minister is referring to?

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

I admire the Deputy's commonsense. The idea, of course, is to reform these prisoners and make them good citizens as far as we can. Punishment that is merely taking vengeance on a person because he has broken the law is really foolish. What you want to do, as far as the individual is concerned, is to reform him, so that he will go out and be a good citizen in future, and will not violate the laws again and become again an inmate of the prison. That, of course, is the object, so far as the individuals are concerned. As far as the general community is concerned, you must take into consideration what will be the deterrent effect of a sentence upon other persons. Your sentence must be one, as far as the individual is concerned, which makes, so to speak, for his reform; and, as far as the community is concerned, it must be heavy enough to deter other members of the community from following that course of crime. For instance, supposing a man was guilty of a very bad robbery, and was only sentenced to one month's imprisonment, that would be a sort of encouragement to the whole community to say to themselves that they could go out and rob, and that they would only get one month's imprisonment. The sentence must be sufficiently heavy to be a deterrent, but, so far as the individual is concerned, while he is serving his sentence every effort is directed towards reforming the man.

Mr. Fahy

Are lectures given such as are given in England and America?

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

I will not say that lectures are given, because I have very little belief personally in lecturing persons. I do not know what type of lecture the Deputy means.

Mr. Fahy

Such as are given in England and America.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

Will the Deputy mention what type of lecture he means?

Mr. Fahy

On all sorts of topics.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

These would be amusements.

Mr. Fahy

Educative.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

I think that even from educative lectures they would learn very little. There are amusements, such as shows and that sort of thing, from time to time in the prison. Of course, as I pointed out last year, the prisoners are very well fed, and a great deal of the old prison discomfort, such as the plank-bed, has been abolished.

Mr. Fahy

Is solitary confinement abolished?

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

No. The man occupies his cell alone at night, but he goes out in association with the others in the daytime, and, provided they do not talk too loudly and make a din, the prisoners are allowed to converse in the workrooms.

Mr. Fahy

Is that connived at or permitted?

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

It is permitted. Of course, they are alone at night in their cells. As to flogging, it is in the code, but it cannot be administered without the permission of the Minister, and that permission has never been asked for, so that there has been no case of flogging in our prisons. Deputy O'Connell asked about the sale of goods manufactured in the prisons. They are sold, but the amount sold is not very much; it is not sufficient to affect the labour market in any way. If the Deputy looks at the returns he will see that the total amount of manufactured goods estimated to be produced in the prisons this year comes to £18,250, as against £13,000 last year.

Mr. O'Connell

What class of article is produced?

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

They make rugs and soft shoes, for instance, but the principle things they make are mail bags for the Post Office. They also make the clothing for the warders and for the prisoners themselves. The bulk of what they produce is utilised in the prisons or else by the Post Office. They do, however, make a certain amount of articles like rugs, which are sold in the public market. I do not think the Deputy need be in any way alarmed that that will affect prices or the wages or employment of labour in the Free State, because the amount sold, over and above what is consumed in the prisons, is trifling. Deputy O'Connell also said that there could be no economies unless prisons were closed.

Mr. O'Connell

What I said was that there could not be a reduction of prisons pari passu with the number of prisoners unless there was—

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

I quite agree. The only reason I refer to that is that the Deputy put the question of closing the prisons into my mind. In theory, it might seem that considerable economy might be effected, because some prisons have a very small prison population. We have got prisons, for instance, in Sligo, Galway and Limerick. Galway Prison has a very small prison population and it might be considered advisable to close it. But, on careful consideration, we came to the conclusion that that really would not effect any economy, because prisoners from the neighbourhood are confined in that prison, and the travelling expenses would be tremendously heavy if you had to bring a prisoner, say, from Connemara to Limerick Prison, and if, when he was remanded in Galway, he had to be brought back to Limerick Prison, and then brought back to Galway to be tried and again returned to Limerick Prison. The expenses would be enormous. As well as that, if a prisoner is an untried prisoner, it is advisable that he should be detained reasonably within his own neighbourhood, because an untried prisoner is allowed a certain number of visitors, so that, quite apart from looking at it from the prisoner's point of view and looking at it from the State point of view, there is no real economy in shutting up a prison, even though there is but a small prison population, where you are reasonably satisfied that the travelling expenses would eat any economy that would be effected by closing it.

Mr. Fahy

Would the Minister explain the increase in the numbers of those committed to the Borstal Institute at Clonmel?

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

Before I come to that I should like to deal with the next question mentioned by the Deputy, that of insanity amongst prisoners. If Deputy Fahy will look at page 11, Table 9, of the Report, dated 31st December, 1927, he will see each case of insanity amongst ordinary convicted prisoners, and he will see that from beginning to end there was the case of only one man who was sane when committed and who became insane in prison. If he looks at the others he will see that they were all insane when they entered prison. What happens in most of these cases is this. Suppose someone is found incapable of pleading or found guilty but insane he is sent to prison and is then transferred from the prison either to the local asylum or Dundrum. All those persons who are found to be guilty but insane, or found not fit to plead to a charge, are transferred from the prisons to the asylum as being insane, and if the Deputy looks he will see there is only one person who was sane at the time he was sent to prison and became insane in prison.

Mr. Fahy

Can the Minister tell how long those sixteen were kept in prison before being sent to the mental hospital?

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

Of course I could not say. The procedure is this. Papers come up with the certificate of the doctor to the Department of Justice, and then the Minister for Justice signs the order directing the governor of the prison to hand over the custody of the prisoner to the head of whatever asylum he may be sent to, and at the same time signs an authority to the head of the asylum to receive the prisoner. These documents are sent to the respective places and the prisoner is transferred. If a prisoner is found guilty and insane in Green Street he might only be in Mountjoy for one day. On the other hand, if he was found guilty in a town far away in the country, it might be much longer before he was sent to an asylum. As to what asylum the person should be sent, the Department of Justice communicates with the Local Government Department. We get the views of the inspectors of the mental hospitals, because of course the mental hospitals are not directly under the Department of Justice. The mental hospitals, including Dundrum, are under the Department of Local Government.

There were two other matters raised by Deputy Fahy that I should like to refer to. One of these is: he says these criminal statistics completely destroy the terrifying statement I made about criminal activities in the country. I never said that this was a crime-ridden country. I have always said the very opposite. I have always said that we are a law-abiding people, and that we have a very low percentage of crime in this country, but I have said there is a certain small body of viciously-minded men in this country who are endeavouring to disturb the peace of this country, and who are endeavouring by crime to upset established order in this country, and that these people must not be allowed get their heads up.

An Ceann Comhairle

If they are not in prison they do not come under this Vote.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

However, my answer is there and the House can follow it up. On the question of the number of persons in the Borstal Institution, that is a figure that may vary. The number of boys in the Borstal Institution is never very considerable; sometimes it goes up and sometimes down, according to the age of the juvenile offenders of the country, but it is never overwhelmingly large. I am quite satisfied that the problem of juvenile crime which is so much talked about in other countries and which is of such overwhelming importance in other countries does not concern us here at all. We are practically free from juvenile crime. A great number of persons who read of the steps that are being taken in other countries to counteract juvenile crime say why not do the same here. The answer is we are practically free from juvenile crime, as the Borstal figures show.

In the Borstal Institute everything is done that is considered to be advisable by the Governor and the visiting committee. Boys are taught a certain trade and, as a matter of fact, carpentry has been added this year. They used to do shoe-making, and so on, but now they have gone further and boys are being given instruction in carpentry. The history of our Borstal boys when they come out of the institution is really very satisfactory. The Borstal boys who go back to prison are very few indeed. I agree with Deputy Fahy in his desire to see the Borstal Institute situated more in a country place, and, indeed, with complete country surroundings, but there is difficulty in setting up a Borstal Institution in a country place, as the capital expenditure would be very high.

I do not want what I am saying now to be at all misinterpreted or misunderstood. I am not suggesting that. I think the Borstal Institution would be better if it were put in a country district and had land. Perhaps it is because I am born of the soil myself that I believe so very much in the outdoor country life for-boys. In the country, boys unconsciously receive on the land a certain stimulus towards right doing and right thinking. While I say that, I want to pay tribute to the work which is being done in the Borstal Institution at the present moment, because the results show that very fine work is being carried on there. Of course, you get some boys and nothing on earth can be done for them. You get a boy and the Borstal people think he is completely cured, but he is back again within a month, having been caught stealing. He is sentenced to prison and everything is done to reform him. Efforts are made on his release to get employment for him, but you will find that that boy is sent back again to prison. There are boys who appear to be completely incurable. Larceny is the principal crime for which they are convicted. Apart from drawbacks like this, the Borstal Institution is doing very good work in the way of reforming the boys who are sent there.

Dr. Myles Keogh

Perhaps I might be permitted, before the Vote is put, to make a suggestion to the Minister. A few months ago I visited a prisoner in Belfast Jail and during the course of our conversation there he suggested to me that I ought to advise the Minister for Justice to grant permission to local reputable musical organisations, choirs, and so on, occasionally on Sunday afternoons or evenings to give entertainments in the prisons to penal servitude prisoners. This, of course, would not apply to prisoners in for a week or a fortnight. To some people this may sound amusing. Of course we are dealing with a musical matter, but I think there is a lot of commonsense in the suggestion. I would like to urge on the Minister the advisability of giving permission for the holding of these entertainments. So far as the reformation of prisoners goes, it occurs to me that this is not at all a bad idea, and I would urge the Minister to consider it. Those prisoners who are sentenced to imprisonment for a length of time would derive much benefit from such entertainments. They would have their minds made a little happier and would, perhaps, be given a better outlook for the future. An interesting musical performance would in many cases be as good as an effective sermon.

Mr. Kerlin

I would like before the debate concludes to ask the Minister if he has done anything in the matter that I brought to his notice last November. I then brought before his notice certain complaints with regard to prisoners brought from Mountjoy to the Bridewell and kept there without food all day. The Minister promised to inquire into those complaints. I would like to ask him now what arrangements have been made by him in the matter of having food given to those prisoners.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

I have issued instructions—and these instructions are being carried out— that the prisoners are to be given food. Prisoners are not to be kept fasting.

Question—"That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration"— put.

The Committee divided: Tá, 32; Níl, 57.

Tá

• Blaney, Neal.
• Bourke, Daniel.
• Briscoe, Robert.
• Buckley, Daniel.
• Carney, Frank.
• Colbert, James.
• Corkery, Dan.
• Crowley, Tadhg.
• De Valera, Eamon.
• Fahy, Frank.
• Flinn, Hugo.
• Fogarty, Andrew.
• French, Seán.
• Gorry, Patrick J.
• Goulding, John.
• Houlihan, Patrick.
• Jordan, Stephen.
• Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
• Kent, William R.
• Kerlin, Frank.
• Killilea, Mark.
• Kilroy, Michael.
• Lemass, Seán F.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• Moore, Séamus.
• O'Reilly, Matthew.
• O'Reilly, Thomas.
• Powell, Thomas P.
• Ryan, James.
• Sexton, Martin.
• Sheehy, Timothy (Tipp.).
• Tubridy, John.

Níl

• Aird, William P.
• Anthony, Richard.
• Beckett, James Walter.
• Bennett, George Cecil.
• Blythe, Ernest.
• Brodrick, Seán.
• Bvrne, John Joseph.
• Carey, Edmund.
• Coburn, James.
• Collins-O'Driscoll, Mrs. Margt.
• Conlon, Martin.
• Connolly, Michael P.
• Corish, Richard.
• Heffernan, Michael R.
• Hennessy, Michael Joseph.
• Hennessy, Thomas.
• Henry, Mark.
• Hogan, Patrick (Galway).
• Holohan, Richard.
• Jordan, Michael.
• Keogh, Myles.
• Law, Hugh Alexander.
• Lynch, Finian.
• Mathews, Arthur Patrick.
• McDonogh, Martin.
• McFadden, Michael Og.
• McGilligan, Patrick.
• Mongan, Joseph W.
• Murphy, James E.
• Cosgrave, William T.
• Craig, Sir James.
• Davin, William.
• Davis, Michael.
• De Loughrey, Peter.
• Doherty, Eugene.
• Doyle, Edward.
• Doyle, Peadar Seán.
• Duggan, Edmund John.
• Dwyer, James.
• Esmonde. Osmond Thos. Grattan.
• Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
• Hassett, John J.
• Murphy, Joseph Xavier.
• Murphy, Timothy Joseph.
• Nally, Martin Michael.
• Nolan, John Thomas.
• O'Connell, Thomas J.
• O'Connor, Bartholomew.
• O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
• O'Higgins, Thos.
• O'Leary, Daniel.
• O'Mahony, Dermot Gun.
• O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
• Shaw, Patrick W.
• Sheehy, Timothy (West Cork).
• Thrift, William Edward.
• Wolfe, George.

Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Kerlin and Killilea; Níl: Deputies Duggan and P. S. Doyle.

Question declared lost.

Vote put, and agreed to.

Progress ordered to be reported.

The Dáil went out of Committee.

Progress reported, the Committee to sit again to-morrow.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.15 p.m.