I wish to put a question to the Minister as to the eventual repayment of this sum of £132,500. There seems to be a misapprehension as to what the Minister said on the Second Reading. It has been reported that the Minister stated that this sum or the greater portion of it was to be borne by the users of navigation. I find that is misconstruing what the Minister actually did say. The Minister did say that this is not determined in this Bill; it must be later decided. I would like the Minister to give us an assurance that we will have an opportunity of discussing the matter before an ultimate decision will be come to as to who will repay this money.
In Committee on Finance. - Electricity (Finance) Bill, 1929—Third and Final Stages.
I would like if the Minister would assure us that the money would be repaid. We are advancing a sum for the purposes of improvement works on the Shannon and we are exempting the Shannon Electricity Supply Board from the obligation to pay interest on or to repay that money. The Minister informed us that the question as to who would be responsible for the interest and sinking fund charges has not been determined. Are we to take it that somebody, somewhere, sometime will be responsible for the repayment of the money and the payment of interest on it in the meantime, or is it intended that any portion of it should be charged on the taxpayer?
I hope the Minister will not ask the users of navigation to pay for the improvements in connection with this. I know it will cripple the industries of Limerick if it is so. I will read a resolution passed by the Limerick Harbour Commissioners last Monday:
"That we have read with alarm the proposal of the Minister for Industry and Commerce in which he expresses his intention that the balance of £132,000 for the proposed improvements of the navigation of the Shannon, after £20,000 has been borne by the Electricity Supply Board, should fall upon the users of the navigation of which the merchants of Limerick form a very important part. That in view of the fact that present tolls on goods carried over the Shannon are 125 per cent. higher than in pre-war days and this new impost would mean at least an additional 150 per cent. on existing tolls which must have a disastrous and crippling effect on this means of transit, we are anxious to know what exactly are the improvements to which the Minister refers. We have never asked for such improvements and are quite satisfied with the transit facilities hitherto provided."
What Deputy Bennett says is quite correct as to my statement the last day. I made no statement, as is stated in the resolution which the Deputy who has just sat down read, expressing my intention that the payment of this money should fall upon navigation. I do not now express any intention that it will not fall upon it either. I have not yet said that it will not fall upon the users of navigation. All I said was that the present proposal went to this extent only, that the Electricity Supply Board would not be asked to pay the service of this debt. Deputy Bennett has asked whether or not an opportunity will be given to discuss the matter of the repayment before any decision is taken. At the moment, under present legislation, I am liable for this sum and cannot get rid of that liability without certain legislation effecting some change. When the legislation comes along, of course, there will be an opportunity to discuss who will repay, with the interest, so what will happen to it eventually I cannot say at the moment. The Limerick Harbour Commissioners, in their resolution, expressed the wish to know what the improvements effected are. They are being answered by letter on that point. They speak of the extra charges that would fall upon them if the whole of the money had to be met out of navigation tolls. They seem to forget always in their calculations that the upkeep of ten or twelve locks that used to cost a certain amount of money disappeared, and that they will save a certain amount of money per annum that will have to go on the other side of the bill. As far as Section 1 or Section 3 goes, nothing is determined except that the money will not be a charge upon the Electricity Supply Board.
I hope the State will bear the expense.
The Deputy had better argue that with Deputy Lemass, who hopes quite the opposite.
The Minister stated that until legislation was passed he would be liable. How is he being made liable? I think the purpose of this section is to remove from him liability to pay.
I am liable with regard to the Shannon navigation until such time as an Order is made transferring it. I also am liable for the redemption of money advanced to the Shannon Funds. There is an obligation which is transferred to me, and by me it is transferred to the Electricity Supply Board. There will have to be further borrowings. Money cannot be charged against navigation by an order from me or from the Executive. There will have to be legislation of some sort.
If the Minister for Finance is going to advance this money to the Minister he will be liable for the moneys he borrows and will have to recover it from some source. Whom is it intended to recover it from?
If he cannot recover it from the Shannon Fund until such time as legislation is passed, it will have to be taken out of the Central Fund.
From the taxpayer?
Yes.
Section 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Sections 2, 3 and 4 and Title agreed to.
The Dáil went out of Committee. Bill reported without amendment.
I move:—
That the Bill be received for Final Consideration.
Question put and agreed to.
I move:—
That the Bill do now pass.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill certified as a Money Bill and ordered to be sent to the Seanad.