Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 27 Nov 1929

Vol. 32 No. 10

Courts of Justice Act, 1924. - Tribunal on Maizemeal and Maize Products.

Minister for Agriculture (Mr. Hogan)

I move:

"That it is expedient that a Tribunal be established for inquiring into a definite matter of urgent public importance, that is to say:—

(1) to ascertain and report whether, having due regard to the interests of—

(a) Producers of cereals in Saorstát Eireann; and

(b) Consumers of maizemeal and maize products in Saorstát Eireann,

it would be in the national interest to enact that all maizemeal and maize products before being offered for sale in Saorstát Eireann shall be mixed with some one or more of the following home-grown cereals, namely, wheat, barley, oats, or rye, so that the resultant mixture shall contain a definite percentage of such cereals; and, if so, what that percentage should be;

(2) to consider and report upon the effect, if any, which such enactment would be likely to have upon tillage and the production of cereals in Saorstát Eireann;

(3) to consider and report upon the administrative machinery necessary to make such enactment operative."

Deputies will remember that when this matter was before the House on a former occasion it was generally suggested from all parts of the House that it would be well that a Commission of Inquiry should have the right to compel the attendance of witnesses and to take evidence on oath. Personally, I did not concur in that opinion. I thought it made no difference. Since then there has been a preliminary meeting of the Commission of Inquiry and, in addition, a first meeting, and the Commission itself thinks it would be well if they had such powers. They made that suggestion to me and I therefore agree. This Resolution has not held up the proceedings of the Committee in any way. They have held their meetings in accordance with the programme up to the present.

Mr. Davin

There is one thing that I would like to bring under the notice of the Minister. That is the question of the date on which they might be asked to bring in a report. I know that the graingrowers' association who are responsible for putting forward this proposal asked the Minister to try and prevail on the individuals who undertook this task to bring in their report early in December. I think the 15th December was mentioned. I fully realise that that is quite impossible. I also realise that the individuals who have been called upon to undertake this task—a very difficult one—have a great deal of other work of the same kind to do. But I would like to remind the Minister that as early a report as possible on this matter is desirable, so that the farmers who may be disposed to consider what they are going to do in the next tillage season will have the Report of the Commission in sufficient time to enable them to make up their minds as to whether it would be better for them to increase the acreage under tillage for the purpose of growing more grain.

Mr. Hogan

It is my personal opinion that if the Commission reported in favour of this proposal and if the Government announced at once that they proposed to take whatever steps were necessary to give effect to the report, it would not make a difference of one acre of tillage. I believe myself that the farmers are not depending so much on an increase of tillage as on getting better prices for what they are growing. However, that does not arise. This Commission have met twice and they have agreed that so far as possible they will meet three times a week for the future. It would be quite impossible for them to meet oftener. There must be intervals between the meetings. Work is done at the actual meetings and evidence is taken there but more work is done between the meetings. Evidence has to be sifted, inquiries made and statistics obtained. The real work of the Commission will be done outside the actual sittings of the Commission at which evidence will be taken. I do not want to discount for a moment the necessity for sitting and hearing evidence but a lot of solid, essential and detailed work will have to be done outside.

As far as I know, the proposals of the Committee are to sit three times per week. Even with these proposals there is no chance whatever of a report by the end of December. I doubt if there is a chance of a report by the end of January. This is a big question. While I am anxious for a quick report, I am more anxious for a full inquiry. Deputies will have to remember that there are two sides to the question. There is a big body of farmers, perhaps not quite so well-organised or vocal, who are against this proposal and they must get every facility for preparing their case and putting it before the Commission. I stated when putting this before the Dáil, for the first time, that I was genuinely anxious for a really exhaustive report on this matter. I think it is far more important, both from the point of view of the Dáil and of the country, to get that than to get a quick report, which will be superficial and scamped.

I cannot see how it is possible for them to sit oftener than they propose to sit. Their proposals may be modified. They may find at some meeting that it would be idle to sit the day next appointed because witnesses may not be available, or that certain matters arose which it was agreed ought to be further examined and which would take a longer time to examine. In any event, the present position is that they propose, as far as possible, to sit three days a week, after next week, and leave it open for evidence to come in until 31st December. I do not think you could cut it any finer than that for evidence purposes. That precludes me from saying when they will have the report. They cannot have it in December. It is very much more important to have a full and exhaustive inquiry. As Deputies said, if they are to sit three days a week on this matter certain other work will have to be neglected. Everything cannot be done together.

Mr. Lemass

Would the Minister inform us if the Tariff Commission, the members of which are also members of this Tribunal, have reported yet on the application from the coach-building trades and paper manufacturers with which they are dealing, or is their work to be suspended entirely?

Mr. Hogan

I am not saying that their work is to be suspended entirely. We have set up a competent body for the purpose of inquiring into applications for a tariffs. Although it was not specifically included in the beginning in their Terms of Reference to make inquiries like this, this is really an application for a tariff. That is their special function.

They are in our opinion—and in my opinion, they have justified that opinion—absolutely competent to inquire into these matters. We must give them their own time to examine every application for tariffs and in such applications as this we consider it more important to get a full examination than to get superficial reports in a short time. Of course, it stands to reason that if the number of applications before them becomes greater it will take them a longer time to report. That is inevitable in the circumstances of the case. There is no way out of it. The point of view that everything in regard to tariffs and inquiries must be done within three months or a year is a totally wrong point of view.

Mr. Lemass

I am not talking about three months; I am talking about three years.

Mr. Hogan

If we were to go back three years, in that three years practically £15,000,000 of our imports have been tariffed. That means a big fiscal change in the economic policy of this country. I cannot see how any such body could have taken a shorter time to make the examination which, in my opinion, is necessary. I certainly would not stand for hurrying deliberations of that kind, which might mean undoing the work again.

Mr. Lemass

Is it the position that we have only three competent officials to deal with these matters?

Mr. Hogan

I have not said that. What I have said is that we have set up one Tariff Commission. I consider that that is sufficient for this country or for any other country.

Mr. Lemass

The fact is that this body, in connection with the application for a tariff for the coach-building industry, has concluded its evidence and should be by this time preparing its report. Is its work to be suspended?

Mr. Hogan

The Deputy has me at a disadvantage there. I do not know. I did know some time ago that the particular application he mentioned was very far advanced. I do not like to venture my opinion at the moment. I have no definite information as to what stage that particular application is at.

Mr. Lemass

Apparently there are only three competent officials.

Question put and agreed to.