Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 28 Nov 1929

Vol. 32 No. 11

Public Business. - Housing (Gaeltacht) Bill, 1929—Second Stage (resumed).

Question proposed: "That the Bill be read a Second Time."

Mr. Lynch

The observations of nearly all the Deputies have been directed to a criticism of the Schedule of the Bill defining the area of the Gaeltacht, within which the Bill will be operative. I have been pressed, on one hand, to extend the area and, on the other hand, to restrict it. The principle adopted is that recommended by the Gaeltacht Commission for the general delimitation of the Gaeltacht after very careful examination of all the implications involved. That was what was adopted by the Government in the White Paper. I am quite conscious that there is much to be said for both points of view, but I think that the Schedule is probably the best compromise that one could arrive at as between the conflicting points of view. If those who wish to see the area restricted would read the Bill carefully they would find in sub-sections (3) and (4) of Section 11 that assistance is in the first place confined to Irish-speaking homes. The other governing clause in connection with valuation will confine the matter, I think, nearly as much as they could possibly desire. In framing the Schedule I did not think it right that any area that would ordinarily be entitled to inclusion in the Gaeltacht should be excluded, but again in reference to sub-sections (3) and (4) of Section 11 the effect will be that the practical operations of the Bill will be confined to a much smaller and much more limited number of district electoral divisions than might be imagined from the Schedule itself. Deputy Séan O'Kelly counted the number of electoral divisions and divided the sum of £250,000 by what he found, namely, 600. He then went on to make the case that the amount available for each electoral area would be negligible.

The overriding clauses, especially Section 11, will operate towards confining very considerable areas in which the Housing Bill will be effective, and instead of the six hundred in the Schedule I should say that probably not more than 100 of the areas mentioned will be affected. It is likely, for instance, that the three-fifths clause will affect only about fifty electoral areas. I think it was Deputy Tierney suggested that the parish area would be preferable to the electoral area. We were in the position that we wanted to find some basis for which there were figures available. There are no figures available as far as the Irish-speaking population in parishes is concerned, but there is as far as the population in electoral areas is concerned—the census of 1926. We based it on the electoral area only because of that reason. It was also said by some Deputies that very many districts which are Irish-speaking do not appear in the Schedule. I think it was Deputy Jasper Wolfe mentioned the case of Schull. I went to the trouble of looking up the census in the case of Schull, and I found that the proportion of Irish speakers is returned as 13.1 per cent., which is considerably below the 25 per cent. required. The Deputy said, perhaps jocosely, that this might lead to a spurt in the use of the Irish language in districts of that kind. We would welcome that.

Section 2 of the Bill, I think, gives me power to add further district electoral divisions to the Schedule under the regulations: "The Minister may by order, whenever he considers it expedient so to do, on account of local variations in the numbers or distribution of Irish-speaking persons, amend the Schedule to this Act by adding thereto any district electoral division," etc. If what Deputy Wolfe fears or hopes may happen, I will have the power to add that district to the Schedule.

Mr. Clery

Deputy Wolfe's fears would be the correct term, I think.

Mr. Lynch

Deputy Law referred to the fact that certain small pockets existed in the Gaeltacht which might be outside the areas referred to in Section 11 (4), that is, those places to which the three-fifths might apply. He said there might be many of these which would be quite as bad as some of the places to which that particular sub-section might apply. That might be, but after all the remaining two-fifths will probably apply to those very areas. Further exception was taken to the Schedule by several Deputies in that it did not include some areas where housing conditions might be bad, but in which the Irish language is not spoken, and they expressed the view that the Schedule should be based on the economic situation of a given area rather than on the language situation. Of course, the specific purpose of the Bill is to deal with the Gaeltacht, housing in the Gaeltacht, and therefore it is not really open to me to include any areas outside the Gaeltacht within the provisions of the Bill.

I think that one could gather from the speeches yesterday afternoon that it is common ground here, that certain special activities and certain special actions should be taken as far as the Gaeltacht is concerned, and I think it is better that these should not be complicated by, say, a similar situation outside the Gaeltacht, no matter how desirous it might be to deal with it. It was said with, I think, a considerable amount of force that the needs of labourers for improved dwellings should be considered. A Bill to deal with that subject, I should say, would have a completely different form from this Bill. It would have very few points of resemblance to this Bill. In the first place the machinery would have to be put in force through the local bodies, the county councils, and, as I say, the provisions of such a Bill would be entirely different. I do not want to show any lack of sympathy with the objects expressed by Deputies who mentioned that. In fact I was rather strongly impressed with the case put up by Deputy Goulding, that there is land which has been acquired in the past by rural district councils which is available for labourers as sites for houses, and that there might be in some Bill a provision made to enable labourers of their own volition and by their own labour to build houses on those sites. It is not actually relevant to the Bill, but I think it is an extremely good point. It is a point to which I intend to draw the attention of the Minister for Local Government. It is a point that is worth considering.

The cases of fishermen were mentioned. There is nothing in the Bill to prevent fishermen utilising it. If there is a fisherman who is in a position to erect a house which would be his own property in substitution for an existing house which is insanitary and unfit for habitation, this Bill certainly does not preclude him from its operation, but I would like to stress that it would not be open, say, to a landlord who would let a house to a fisherman or somebody else on a weekly or a monthly tenancy to get a loan under this Act, because that would be entirely foreign to the whole idea of the Act, and such person can utilise other Acts which are general to the other parts of the country. I think Deputy Clery, Deputy Dr. Tubridy, and some other Deputies mentioned the erection of accommodation for cattle and the erection of hay barns. That question was considered, and I might say that this whole Bill was considered, by a sub-committee of the Inter-Departmental Committee, which is dealing with the economic situation in the Gaeltacht. Nearly every one of the points mentioned have been considered by them. The Bill, I might say, was the result of their deliberations extending over several months. In connection with the hay barn question and the cattle or cowhouses proposal there are existing facilities by way of loans, not by way of grants I admit, for this purpose from the Board of Works.

Mr. Moore

I think the Minister is making a mistake. I think the Agricultural Credit Corporation has taken over that work from the Board of Works.

Mr. Lynch

I do not think the Deputy is quite right there.

Mr. Moore

I am.

Mr. Lynch

Anyhow, and this will come to one of Deputy Moore's points, we anticipate that where new houses are being built the old houses will occasionally be used for cow houses. I might, since I have dealt with that point, say that the idea behind the provision of Section 6 (3) which Deputy Moore raised with regard to demolition was to prevent the old houses being utilised by other persons coming in and so prevent the perpetuation of the problem. We are rather enticing them to destroy the old houses.

The question of the provision for a workroom was raised. There is no such provision in the Bill, but we feel that under the provisions of the Bill a person desirous of making a special workroom can do so with the money which will be available. Many persons questioned what I have said—perhaps I did not make it very clear—as to the granting of the loan. When I said that the granting of loans would be regarded more as an emergency measure than the normal procedure what I had in mind was that we were loth to saddle people in the Gaeltacht with perhaps a repayment burden which they could not pay rather than that we had any idea of trying to cut them off from any of the facilities under the Act. It is notorious of course, that at the moment they find it difficult enough to meet the obligations they have to meet half-yearly or yearly, as the case may be, in the way of rates, Land Commission annuities and so on. The placing of any further burden on them by way of loan may not be to their advantage. That is the only consideration which will govern us in the giving of the loans as to the capability of the person to repay them.

I was rather glad to hear from Deputy Moore also the suggestion of the cluster rather than the isolated house. That is a thing we have in our minds, but it is a thing which perhaps is not quite as easy as one might imagine. There may be many difficulties first of all as to the willingness of the people concerned to go into the cluster, and secondly, perhaps some further arrangement with regard to the land immediately abutting the house where they would be living. It would be advisable from many points of view, and especially from one particular one which we have been considering, that of afforestation, or of having a sheltered belt around the houses. It would be much easier to deal with the question of a sheltered belt if you had a group of houses than if you had isolated houses. Anyhow, there is nothing in the Bill to prevent that, and we are keeping it in mind.

It has been suggested that use should be made of local assistance in the administration of the Bill. I happen to know that the work of the particular parish councils—I think they were so called under the C.D.B. —was not exactly free from criticism. I am perfectly aware of the fact that assistance of the kind is desirable and is, of course, in the main, particularly helpful for a task of this kind which works in so very much with, say, the operations of the local doctor, the schoolmaster or the clergy. Their co-operation in a matter of this kind is, of course, easily recognisable by anybody. We are not losing sight of that, and, in fact, as far as the clergy are concerned we have been in many matters consulting them, and have got very gladly from them very useful help.

There were references made to bouquets. The bouquets must be an imagination of the Fianna Fáil Party, because, candidly, I did not hear any one of them from the Cumann na nGaedheal Party, who presumably know very well that Ministers normally do not look for bouquets when they are bringing forward what is an ordinary matter of course. I do not look for bouquets.

Mr. Good

He does not object to them.

Mr. Lynch

Nobody objects to them, but I assure you I entirely agree with Deputy Tierney in one of the remarks he made that bouquets from certain quarters would make me examine my conscience.

Mr. Flinn

Have you got one?

Mr. Lynch

The only persons who referred to bouquets were members on the opposite benches, who felt from reading through the Bill that bouquets would be thrown which actually were not thrown. They thought of bouquets which were not thrown. The only bouquets thrown, or rather I should say wreaths, which were laid by the Fianna Fáil Party were laid on the grave of the old C.D.B. I do not say a word against the old C.D.B. The old C.D.B. did a great deal of work, and a great deal of the work of my Department must be built on information collected by the old C.D.B. They must follow the lines the old C.D.B. followed. But the fact is this Bill is to provide for persons who were not touched by the old C.D.B., because they were so submerged, and the problem was so frightfully difficult to tackle, that they passed them over and dealt with a slightly easier but very useful problem, the striping of land in the case of persons just a little better than the persons being dealt with in this Bill. They did not actually get down to the particular persons this Bill is designed to deal with.

Deputies raised the question of the purchasing of material for building in the Gaeltacht; that is a question which can be easily considered, but the question will arise as to the price at which you can get your material. There is a provision in the Bill, as you know, for combined purchasing. If the particular applicant so desires, and if it will be to his benefit, the Department will help him, especially where there is a group in a particular area having houses built. It will probably be a great deal to their benefit that the Department should arrange for the supply of material. They will probably get it at a cheaper rate, and be able to see that the standard of the stuff was up to the required mark. Outside that there is nothing in the Bill to prevent persons buying their stuff in the Gaeltacht.

Deputy Jasper Wolfe referred to the question of the transport of materials to the islands. Whenever I say anything at all it is said that is another one of the promises of the Minister for Lands and Fisheries. I was nearly making a promise to Deputy Wolfe that he can, quite safely I hope, in a very short time go and see his constituents in Cape Clear. Arrangements are being provided for Cape Clear especially and some other islands off the mainland from the point of view of transport.

Another point that was made was that the Bill made no provision to enable local authorities to contribute to the cost of the scheme. I might say, first of all, that it is a particular type of Bill. "An rud is annamh is iongantach." I should say the one person who got that point the most explicitly was Deputy Flinn. It is a Bill which essentially looks for the co-operation of the person who is desiring the house. He is doing a great portion of the building himself. He is looking for the stone, doing the carting, and the ordinary work practically of the building of the house until it comes to the necessity for getting the handy man. I do not know how many weeks he will be required. The Bill is different in that way from any other Housing Bill. It is not one that looks to the local authority. It is essentially a kind of co-operation between the man who seeks the house and the Government who lends the money for the particular things, until he reaches the position when he wants the door and the window frames and the placing of these things. Furthermore, we felt that local authorities are sufficiently burdened at the moment with many other commitments. We felt, taking into consideration exactly what I have said in regard to the co-operation of the person desiring the house to be built, that the Bill would meet the situation without the local authority.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

took the Chair.

Mr. Lynch

Somebody raised the question of seeing whether the right material was being used in the building of the houses. The regulations will have to provide for that. Naturally, of course, there will be a certain amount of inspection. The regulations in the Bill will be laid on the Table of the House.

Deputy Clery raised the question of administration. No part of the £250,000 will go towards administration. The administration may be the work of several different departments. The agricultural overseers, for instance, are purely a matter for the Department of Agriculture and will, in the ordinary way, be in the Department's Vote. This £250,000 is to be devoted entirely to the loans and grants. The whole sum will be available for the purposes of the Bill.

Mr. Aiken

Has the Minister any time limit set for the expending of that money?

Mr. Lynch

That is rather a difficult question to answer. I should say, considering all the examinations that will take place and so on, that it will take three years to expend the whole of the £250,000.

Mr. Flinn

That is not good enough.

Mr. Lynch

I am merely making my own estimate.

Mr. Flinn

That is an estimate which the Minister will have to revise by speeding up his Department.

Mr. Lynch

It may be speeded up As a matter of fact, as far as we are concerned we should like that the whole of the money should be expended before the 1st April, 1931. but from my own experience of the difficulties in the way, I do not for a moment believe that it will be. As far as we are concerned, it may be taken that we will speed up that work as far as it is humanly possible.

Mr. Derrig

Could the Minister give us any idea as to the amount which is to go in grants as distinct from loans?

Mr. Lynch

I think it is £150,000 grants and £100,000 loans.

Mr. Derrig

The Minister has not given any reply to the point made by Deputy O Cleirigh about registration. I cannot see why registration should be necessary for these lands.

Mr. Lynch

You mean registration of title?

Mr. Derrig

Yes.

Mr. Lynch

Section 9 (4) of the Bill is to remove any difficulties that might arise on the question.

Mr. Flinn

The Minister was good enough to give me certain particulars of how he made up the estimate of £180. I think that these particulars ought to be in some form in the House records. As far as I understood it, the bought materials and the cost of transport comes to £130. Hired labour is £5. Would the Minister mind giving the House particulars as to how that estimate is made up?

Mr. Lynch

The Deputy surely does not expect me to read out the items.

Mr. Flinn

Simply the £50 for the moment.

Mr. Derrig

What I really wanted to find out from the Minister was, how are we to know these 50 electoral areas, or one hundred, which he says are to be covered. He said it might only apply to 50 of the areas. We are in the position that we do not know what areas. We have not got the census figures, and we do not know what areas are classed as Irish-speaking, so it will be extremely difficult for us to put in amendments until the Minister can circulate information showing us the areas where the 21/- valuation will arise, and the areas that can be classed as Irish-speaking.

Mr. Lynch

The limitation of the areas is governed by Section 11 (4). I will candidly admit to the Deputy that I do not know any more than he does now whether Bally so-and-so will be in or out. I have not the faintest idea.

Mr. Derrig

Why is 21/- selected then?

Mr. Lynch

Because we felt that was a fair basis on which you could get at the really submerged. If you take 30/-, which was the figure on which the old C.D.B. worked, you would take in a much wider area, many portions of which could easily avail of existing Housing Acts. We are trying to get down to the person who had never been able to avail of any Acts heretofore, including the Labourers Acts. They were excluded from the Labourers Acts because these Acts were confined to persons who had not more than one acre of land. Most of the persons to whom this Bill will apply have more than one acre of land. They were not touched by the former Housing Acts, and the former Housing Acts may apply to some of the persons Deputy Derrig refers to.

Mr. Derrig

There are some areas excluded from the Schedule. For instance, Glenamaddy, Co. Galway. We do not know whether it was on a valuation basis or an Irish-speaking basis that these areas were excluded.

Mr. Lynch

I thought I made that perfectly clear. My only responsibility for the Schedule was to take from the census any place that is 25 per cent. Irish-speaking. Galway was omitted by mistake. There were two other areas, one surrounding Maynooth College, and the other Rockwell College, which were brought to 25 per cent. Irish-speaking by the fact that every student in the Colleges was Irish-speaking.

Mr. Derrig

Will the Minister give the House a guarantee that the money will be available for this work within a shorter period than three years? The work is waiting to be done.

Mr. Lynch

There will be a Money Resolution next week and I hope to get an opportunity of putting the Bill through before Christmas. I hope that a considerable amount of money in connection with the Bill will be spent in this financial year. I cannot give any guarantee that all the money will be spent. So long as I have the feeling that it is being spent wisely and that we are dealing with the persons with whom I want to deal, the more quickly the money is spent the more I will like it. A sum of £250,000 will be made available by the Government. If we are able to spend it quickly, well and good, but I want to make sure that we are going to touch the persons I have set out to deal with.

Mr. Cassidy

Does the Minister intend to take any steps after these houses have been built to see that they are not allowed to be mortgaged? Does he intend to take any precaution to see that the houses are not allowed to pass out of the hands of tenants into the hands of landlords? I believe if that ultimately took place it would defeat the whole object of the Bill. If, after the houses are built, a tenant gets into debt he might be inclined to mortgage the premises or he might sell them to the landlord who might then put in a tenant at an exorbitant rent. Does he intend to make any effort to prohibit such a thing happening?

Mr. Lynch

There is no danger, especially in the Fior-Ghaeltacht, of things such as the Deputy mentions taking place. These are very out-of-the-way places and there is not a landlord whom I know of who would consider even the loveliest house in those particular areas.

Mr. Cooney

There are gombeen men.

Mr. Lynch

That might be, but I do not anticipate it. It is a reasonable point to put up. If such a thing should happen it would go diametrically against the purposes of the Bill. If there is any danger of that I will try to find out where that danger exists, and if I can find it I will meet it.

Mr. Derrig

Will the officials of the Land Commission be definitely responsible in connection with this scheme, or will we have the position that we shall have to go to the Local Government Department?

Mr. Lynch

My Department will be responsible for the Bill and as far as the administration is concerned my Department will supply the inspectors.

Mr. Davin

What portion of the estimated cost of £250,000 covering the work which is going to be done will be made available in the Estimates for the coming financial year? That will show to what extent there is a desire on the part of the Minister to speed up the administration of this scheme.

Mr. Lynch

First of all we will have to look for a Supplementary Estimate before the new Estimates will be considered. Before money will be available in the new financial year there will be a Supplementary Estimate introduced. It will be introduced almost immediately.

Mr. Davin

What amount?

Mr. Lynch

I am not able to tell you that.

Mr. Davin

What is the average period for which the so-called handy-man will be employed on any work carried out which provides for the maximum grant, and what is the rate of wages which the Minister has included in the £50 estimate for the work done by the so-called handy-man?

Mr. Corish

Will there be any Housing Inspector employed, anybody under whose supervision this work would be done and who will know something about house building?

Mr. Lynch

The Deputy ought to know that the Land Commission has been dealing with the building of houses and the improvement of houses for a number of years and there are many inspectors of the Land Commission who are quite competent to deal with that type of work. The chief inspector of the Land Commission will be the person who presumably will be responsible. Candidly speaking, the details of administration have not been worked out. Deputy Davin has referred to the handy-man. Deputy Davin does not seem to know that there does actually exist in the West of Cork and Kerry, in Connemara and Donegal—I know it from childhood—a type of person who is quite a handy mason and who is able to put in windows and doors, erect roofs and the rest of it. We estimate his wages will be £2 a week for twentyfive weeks.

Mr. Davin

That is all I want to know.

Mr. Flinn

We now have it that the estimate is £130 for material and £50 for labour. I want the Minister to give us his estimate of the value of local materials and the value of non-hired labour going into a house.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That point is one that could be dealt with in Committee.

Mr. Flinn

Possibly the Minister will be able to indicate on the Schedule, in Committee, approximately the fifty districts.

Mr. Lynch

I could not.

Mr. Flinn

Surely that information could be ascertained.

Mr. Lynch

I will consider whether it can be done. I doubt very much whether we could get it.

Mr. Flinn

We merely ask the Minister to do his best.

Question—"That the Bill be now read a Second Time"—put and agreed to.

Mr. Lynch

I am particularly anxious to get the Bill through before Christmas. If Deputies wish I could arrange for the Committee Stage on Thursday and we might be able to take the Report, and, perhaps, the Final Stage on Friday. If there is no objection, I will submit that proposal.

Committee Stage fixed for Thursday, 5th December.