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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 29 May 1930

Vol. 35 No. 2

In Committee on Finance. - Vote No. 24—Ordnance Survey.

I move:

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £30,003 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1931, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí na Suirbhéireachta Ordonáis agus na MiontSeirbhísí ar a n-áirítear Mac-Shamhla de Láimhscríbhinní Seanda do dhéanamh.

That a sum not exceeding £30,003 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on 31st day of March, 1931, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Ordnance Survey and of minor Services including the Facsimile Reproduction of Ancient Manuscripts.

I note again in this connection that there has been an increase in the Estimate for sub-head A—"Salaries, wages and allowances"—of £1,790. I am not satisfied with the explanation which the Minister gave in relation to the corresponding sub-head in Vote 23. He said that there had been a retirement of the gentleman who was at the head of the service, and that in consequence there had been a certain promotion. It would seem that the gentleman at the head of the service would retire at the top of the incremental scale and, instead of there being an increase in the amount aliocated for salaries, wages and allowances, there should be a decrease.

Another man was moved up.

Surely the top man was succeeded by a person on a lower salary?

It is the same.

Again, in connection with the Ordnance Survey, and with the Valuation Service but to a lesser extent, there is a sort of feeling that everything is not well with this particular Department, or rather has not been well with it up to this particular year. I understand that a new head has been appointed. I hope that that carries with it a promise that the organisation of the Department will be seriously investigated with a view to seeing that grievances that have from time to time been ventilated in the Dáil and the dissatisfaction which was supposed to exist will disappear. Again, in connection with this Department, I notice apparently that there is one Assistant Director. Am I to take it from that that at some time in the immediate future there will be appointed over him a Director; or to whom is this Assistant Director an assistant? I would like to know in what relation this Department of the Ordnance Survey stands to any other Department and whether, in view of the fact that there is apparently an officer at the top known as an Assistant Director, there is any other Department of which this is a subordinate side, because it would appear to me, unless there are very good reasons for its not being so, that this Department should be more or less an independent service.

The work which it does is particularly important not only from the point of view of the civil administration of the State, but also from the point of view of the military defence of the State. I do not want to make a plea that it should be attached to the Department of Defence, but certainly I do not think that it should be anything less than an autonomous Department, under the Minister, of course. I would like to know whether we are likely to have such reorganisation of the Department as will case the public mind in regard to it. As I have said, there has been a feeling from the very beginning that the affiliations of this Department with the forces of the late British Government in this country were too close to make the people in general feel that they were secure. That is one of the reasons that I think that the Department ought to be autonomous and that it ought to have, as it now has, at its head an Irishman who will ensure that the Department will be so re-organised that every item of information which might be valuable to an outside State, or any other power, will be kept as closely as possible confidential. Of course, in view of the fact that the Department has been for a considerable time under the control of people of other nationalities and with a different outlook to our own, it might be difficult, but the very difficulty of the problem enhances its importance, and it is one to which I hope the Minister will give earnest consideration.

The present position is that the Commissioner of Valuation is director nominally. I admit that his appointment is rather nominal, but he does exercise a certain supervision and deals with certain points. He was appointed to that position some time ago simply because of some of the difficulties to which Deputy MacEntee alluded. The Irishman who was appointed to the office, and who will ultimately become its head, is at present Deputy Assistant Director, not Assistant Director. It is recognised that everything was not just exactly as we would like it to be in that particular office, but the position is, of course, that there is a staff there whom we inherited. Great trouble arose between different sections of the staff. I do not think that any one section of the staff was to blame. As a matter of fact, I think that the gentleman whose agitation caused a Committee to be appointed by the Government some years ago, with a member of the Dáil as Chairman and with an engineer of the Local Government Department and a Professor of Engineering as members, undoubtedly spread a great number of false reports.

The Committee found that he had deliberately lied about those who were his superior officers. The Government took such a serious view of the position that, although he himself was at the time out of the Ordnance Survey and was employed in the Land Commission, having been for a period in the National Army, they thought it necessary to discharge him from the Land Commission. Some of the feeling, to which Deputy MacEntee has alluded, arose from the agitation that was carried on by this particular man and others. For instance, the idea was put abroad that a great deal of material which should be in the office had been taken away by the British authorities before their departure. This Committee comprised Mr. O'Dwyer, Engineering Inspector, Local Government Department; Professor Purcell, of the National University, and the late Mr. Sears as Chairman. The Committee found that that was not so, that there was a full complement of material there, and that things that ought not to be taken away had not been taken away. We recognise quite definitely what while this Department should not be under the Defence Department it should be closely associated with it, and that its work is of great importance from the point of view of national defence. Bearing that view in mind, it was decided that an Army officer, who received special training to fit him for this work and who has now left the Army, should be appointed to that post, which will result in his being ultimately the head of the Ordnance Survey.

Can the Minister give us an assurance that there were no plates removed from the Ordnance Survey, that there was nothing taken away at all?

I would refer the Deputy to the Report of the Committee of Investigation, which is pretty full and which he will find in the Library.

I recollect now that when this Vote was being discussed last year we asked the Minister to look specially into one matter, namely, the evidence afforded by the bills of lading, the particular lists of the cargoes, in order to show what was taken away on ships at the time. I think that the Minister left the matter in doubt as to whether these had been examined, because that was part of the evidence relied on to prove that the plates had been removed.

I do not know whether anything was done. I cannot tell the Deputy at the moment whether anything was done departmentally following the remarks in the Dáil, but, personally, I did not take any action. The matter was considered by a very competent committee, which consisted, as far as I can recollect, of Mr. Sears, Mr. O'Hegarty, Secretary to the Executive Council; Mr. O'Dwyer and Professor Purcell. That Committee was regarded as being very competent to deal with the matter. I spent a good deal of time dealing with the question, and I was prepared, in the absence of anything that would cast doubt on the findings, to accept the report. I do not think that any Deputy, having read that report, could feel any doubt on the matter.

Question put and agreed to.
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