I move:—
"In sub-section 2 (a), line 8, after the word ‘persons' to insert the words ‘no person other than' and in line 9 to delete the word ‘alone.'"
This is merely a drafting amendment.
Electoral (Dublin Commercial) Bill, 1930—Committee.
The Dáil went into Committee.
Question—"That Section 1 stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
SECTION 2.
Subject and without prejudice to the provisions of the said Section 34, the following provisions shall have effect in relation to the persons who are entitled under that section to be registered in the register of commercial electors, that is to say:—
(a) where an individual is the rated occupier of premises and that individual carries on business in those premises under a partnership or trade name either alone or in partnership with another person or other persons, the said individual alone shall be entitled under the said Section 34 to be registered in the said register in respect of those premises.
Amendment put and agreed to.
Question—"That Section 2, as amended, stand part of the Bill"— put and agreed to.
Question—"That Section 3 stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
SECTION 4.
Question proposed: "That Section 4 stand part of the Bill."
Deputy O'Kelly and, I think, some other Deputy drew attention to the desirability of giving as long a period as possible in which to have the register properly prepared. With a view to extending the amount of time at the disposal of the Town Clerk to prepare the register, with the leave of the House I would like to change the date from 15th July to 1st July, 1930. I think that we will have both the Dublin Bill and this Bill law before 1st July and I want to do away with that unnecessary fortnight as the change will help materially those who will have to prepare the register.
Will that permit of the register being compiled as the result of a house-to-house canvass?
No, the house-to-house canvass and what it entails are covered by the dates set out in the order of election, namely, from 15th November in any one year until 1st June next, so that it would not be possible to have a house-to-house canvass.
Is it on the rate books alone that the Town Clerk will have to go when making up the register?
There will be notices published and applications can be made for votes. The Town Clerk will have the rate books as his main fall-back. He can, of course, make any further inquiries that seem to him to be reasonable. He is not confined to his register alone and no doubt he will utilise his experience and apply it in the best way he can in compiling the best register that it is within his power to make. For the first register the main responsibility will be on people who are being given the franchise to apply to be put on.
Would it not be possible to take steps to bring to the notice of those who are likely to be on the register the fact that they must make a claim? The difficulty we foresee is that a small minority read the statutory notices in the newspapers and a much smaller proportion act on them. The first register will be incomplete in view of the fact that the Town Clerk will be dependent mainly on those who make claims. Would it not be possible for him to circularise those whom he thinks would be entitled to have their names on the register and to ask them to fill in the forms and supply the necessary information?
I take it that there will be the usual procedure by which notices will be displayed at the post offices and church doors. If there is wide publicity in that way I think we are going as far as we can go. The alternative is to take either some register that has already been compiled, like the Port and Docks register, and to circulate it, or to circulate all business premises and organisations. I think, however, that that would be putting unnecessary labour on the staff and entailing unnecessary expense for postage. With widely circulated notices in the Press and the usual electoral notices at the post offices and church doors. I think we would have all the publicity necessary. Then, of course, all the talk there has been on this particular type of iniquitous register will help to draw attention to it.
I think that the Minister has properly described the register when he called it an "iniquitous" one. I would like to know whether it is within the power of the Town Clerk to take from the rate books the names of those who would be qualified by the fact that their names appear on the rate books for business premises, professions and the like. Would he be empowered to make the register himself if he could, without application being made to him, register such persons, even if there were only 5 per cent. of the people, whether entitled to vote or not, on it? I think that the Town Clerk would make a conscientious effort to have a proper register, but this House in passing the Bill in a hurried fashion is doing everything possible to make the register fit the title which the Minister has just given to it.
I do not think that it will be possible for the Town Clerk to make up the register without having received claims in the first instance.
Now we know what to expect.
Amendment put and agreed to.
Question—"That Section 4, as amended, stand part of the Bill"— put and agreed to.
Question—"That Section 5 stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
There is a slight misprint in Section 6 (4). The word "to" should be "by" before the words "county registrar."
Yes, it should be "by."
Sections 6 (as amended) to 19, inclusive, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
FIRST SCHEDULE.
Question proposed—"That the First Schedule stand part of the Bill."
I am not at all clear that in Section 12 the registration officer must give notice to the person concerned when making an objection to that person being included on the register unless his name appears on the published list. Sub-section (2) provides that where an objection is made by the registration officer and is not included in the list of objections published the registration officer shall send notice of such objection by post or otherwise. If it is included, is the necessity to send notice by post still there and, if so, under what section?
In Section 13, sub-section (3), the person objected to, in whatever way he is objected to, is entitled to a hearing. That should satisfy the Deputy.
No.
He will have to get notice to come for his hearing.
No. There is in all the Electoral Acts a provision that any person who has a claim to be on the register and who is objected to must be informed by the objector of the fact that the objection is being made. It is apparently intended to continue that system in this Act, but, so far as I can see, there is a loophole which exempts the registration officer from sending such notice, if the person's name is on the list of objections.
I do not know whether I understand the Deputy correctly. Section 2 of sub-section 12 says: "Whenever an objection made by the registration officer under this rule is not included in a list of objections published under these rules the registration officer shall send notice of such objection by post or otherwise to the person to whom such objection relates." That is, the person must get notice.
Only in one case. Might I suggest that the word "whenever" be changed to the words "whether or not"?
Would it meet the difficulty if we made the sub-section read: "Whenever an objection is made by the registration officer the registration officer shall send notice of such objection by post or otherwise to the person to whom such objection relates"?
Exactly.
The amendment then is—"In line 28, after the word ‘objection' to insert the word ‘is,' and in lines 29 and 30 to delete the words ‘is not included in a list of objections published under these rules.'"
Amendment, as above, put and agreed to.
First Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
SECOND SCHEDULE.
We object to the Schedule as a whole, but before I proceed to give my reasons for our objection there is a minor matter to which I would like to allude, arising out of Section 9, sub-section 3. Provision is there made to deal with the situation that would arise if the number of candidates nominated did not equal the number of vacancies to be filled. It provides that the additional vacancies shall be filled by lot from the persons highest at the previous election. It is a very unlikely contingency, but if there were not enough candidates nominated to fill all the vacancies at the first election, how would the seats be filled?
The provision here is common to urban district council and county council elections. Under the Adaptation of Enactments Act, there is power taken to deal with the unlikely possibility to which the Deputy refers. The Minister can intervene to solve any difficulty which may arise.
How would the Minister intervene—by nominating persons himself?
I should like notice of that question. The procedure, however, is the ordinary electoral procedure.
We are opposed to the section as a whole on the ground that it provides for carrying out the election by a system of postal voting. We stated our reasons for that objection on the Second Reading debate. Our objection still holds good. We cannot see why these commercial electors should not be required to cast their votes personally in the same way as ordinary electors. We do not think that the cost of providing necessary machinery to enable them to do that would exceed, even if it were to equal, the cost of providing the machinery for postal voters. We are strongly opposed to the giving of a special privilege to a selected class of the community in the city. I have no doubt whatever that the reason why this particular method of carrying out the election of the commercial members was devised was because the Minister knew —no matter what he may have stated in the Dáil—that the persons concerned never did take a very active interest in municipal affairs and will not do so, and that they will not vote unless they can be coaxed to do so. People who have to be coaxed to vote should be left without votes. That is my candid opinion, particularly when the body concerned is a municipal body. The giving of these special privileges we are strongly opposed to and we propose to vote against the schedule.
Question—"That this be the Second Schedule to the Bill"—put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 62; Níl, 56.
Tá
- Alton, Ernest Henry.
- Beckett, James Walter.
- Bennett, George Cecil.
- Blythe, Ernest.
- Bourke, Séamus A.
- Brennan, Michael.
- Byrne, John Joseph.
- Carey, Edmund.
- Collins-O'Driscoll, Mrs. Margt.
- Conlon, Martin.
- Connolly, Michael P.
- Cosgrave, William T.
- Craig, Sir James.
- Crowley, James.
- De Loughrey, Peter.
- Doherty, Eugene.
- Dolan, James N.
- Doyle, Peadar Seán.
- Duggan, Edmund John.
- Egan, Barry M.
- Esmonde, Osmond Thos. Grattan.
- Fitzgerald, Desmond.
- Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
- Good, John.
- Gorey, Denis J.
- Haslett, Alexander.
- Hassett, John J.
- Heffernan, Michael R.
- Hennessy, Thomas.
- Hennigan, John.
- Henry, Mark.
- Hogan, Patrick (Galway).
- Holohan, Richard.
- Jordan, Michael.
- Kelly, Patrick Michael.
- Law, Hugh Alexander.
- Leonard, Patrick.
- Lynch, Finian.
- Mathews, Arthur Patrick.
- McDonogh, Martin.
- MacEóin, Seán.
- McFadden, Michael Og.
- McGilligan, Patrick.
- Mongan, Joseph W.
- Mulcahy, Richard.
- Murphy, James E.
- Murphy, Joseph Xavier.
- O'Connell, Richard.
- O'Connor, Bartholomew.
- O'Leary, Daniel.
- O'Mahony, Dermot Gun.
- O'Sullivan, Gearóid.
- O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
- Reynolds, Patrick.
- Rice, Vincent.
- Roddy, Martin.
- Sheehy, Timothy (West Cork).
- Thrift, William Edward.
- Tierney, Michael.
- White, Vincent Joseph.
- Wolfe, George.
- Wolfe, Jasper Travers.
Níl
- Aiken, Frank.
- Allen, Denis.
- Anthony, Richard.
- Blaney, Neal.
- Broderick, Henry.
- Buckley, Daniel.
- Carty, Frank.
- Clery, Michael.
- Coburn, James.
- Colbert, James.
- Cooney, Eamon.
- Corish, Richard.
- Corry, Martin John.
- Crowley, Tadhg.
- Davin, William.
- Derrig, Thomas.
- De Valera, Eamon.
- Fahy, Frank.
- Flinn, Hugo.
- Fogarty, Andrew.
- Geoghegan, James.
- Gorry, Patrick J.
- Goulding, John.
- Hayes, Seán.
- Jordan, Stephen.
- Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
- Kent, William R.
- Kerlin, Frank.
- Boland, Gerald.
- Bourke, Daniel.
- Brady, Seán.
- Briscoe, Robert.
- Killilea, Mark.
- Kilroy, Michael.
- Lemass, Seán F.
- Little, Patrick John.
- Maguire, Ben.
- McEllistrim, Thomas.
- MacEntee, Seán.
- Moore, Séamus.
- Mullins, Thomas.
- Murphy, Timothy Joseph.
- O'Connell, Thomas J.
- O'Hanlon, John F.
- O'Dowd, Patrick Joseph.
- O'Kelly, Seán T.
- O'Reilly, Matthew.
- O'Reilly, Thomas.
- Powell, Thomas P.
- Ruttledge, Patrick J.
- Ryan, James.
- Sexton, Martin.
- Sheehy, Timothy (Tipp.).
- Smith, Patrick.
- Walsh, Richard.
- Ward, Francis C.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Duggan and P. S. Doyle; Níl, Deputies G. Boland and Allen.
Question declared carried.
Third Schedule put and agreed to.
Title agreed to.
The Dáil went out of Committee.
Bill reported with amendment.
I think Deputies would be generally agreeable to let the Seanad have this Bill at the earliest possible moment. I take it that no further amendments are likely to arise in view of our Committee Stage, and I should be glad, for the sake of the Seanad, if the remaining stages were taken to-day.
Agreed.
Question—"That the Bill be received for final consideration"— put and agreed to.
Question proposed—"That the Bill do now pass."
There is a question that I forgot to ask when the Bill was in Committee. It relates to the attendance of candidates at the issue of ballot papers and at the counting of the votes (Section 17). It is not specifically stated in the section. I am anxious to know if the word "candidate" in that connection includes the candidate's agent. Can the candidate appoint an agent to act for him at the issue of the ballot papers and the counting of the votes?
I take it that the candidate would be entitled to nominate an agent. I think the Municipal Corporations Acts apply, but I will verify that. If there is any point that the Deputy would like to make I would like if he would make it now.
I merely wanted to know——
The Deputy would desire that it would be possible for a substitute for a candidate to attend at the issue of the ballot papers and the counting of the votes.
It might meet the matter if you put in the definition section the expression "candidate includes candidate's agent."
Supposing he were elected.
I would like to ask the Minister whether he has consulted the Whips of the different parties with regard to getting these facilities for the passage of this very objectionable Bill.
I regret that I have not. I will simply leave it to the House. The House will appreciate the necessity of the Seanad getting this Bill at this particular part of the year.
They do not appreciate that they should ever get it.
It is a question of facilitating the Seanad. I do not know what arrangements the Seanad are making, whether they desire to sit next week to finish off the business or not. If the Seanad did wish to make an arrangement like that, I take it we would be prepared to facilitate them. If they are to take the Bill next week Senators would like to have the Bill in their hands a certain number of days.
We are actually on the Fifth Stage now.
Might I explain that we are only facilitating the passage of the Bill because we do not want to hold up the creation of the Municipal Council in Dublin? We are prepared to recognise that there is a majority for this objectionable Bill. We propose to vote against the Bill, but we do not want to cause a delay that would mean postponing the election of the Municipal Council and a continuance of the Commissioners' rule.
I consider it a highly objectionable procedure for the Minister to come into the House in an autocratic way and ask for these facilities. Personally I am not prepared to agree to these facilities.
I am prepared to meet the Deputy entirely.
In fact we have entered upon a debate on the Fifth Stage of the Bill. Deputy Lemass has made a speech.
May I say, in reply to Deputy Davin, that there is no question of being autocratic?
Not at all!
Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 66; Níl, 57.
Tá
- Alton, Ernest Henry.
- Beckett, James Walter.
- Bennett, George Cecil.
- Blythe, Ernest.
- Bourke, Séamus A.
- Brennan, Michael.
- Brodrick, Seán.
- Byrne, John Joseph.
- Carey, Edmund.
- Collins-O'Driscoll, Mrs. Margt.
- Conlon, Martin.
- Connolly, Michael P.
- Cosgrave, William T.
- Craig, Sir James.
- Crowley, James.
- Daly, John.
- Davis, Michael.
- De Loughrey, Peter.
- Doherty, Eugene.
- Dolan, James N.
- Doyle, Peadar Seán.
- Duggan, Edmund John.
- Egan, Barry M.
- Esmonde, Osmond Thos. Grattan.
- Fitzgerald, Desmond.
- Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
- Good, John.
- Gorey, Denis J.
- Haslett, Alexander.
- Hassett, John J.
- Sheehy, Timothy (West Cork).
- Thrift, William Edward.
- Tierney, Michael.
- Heffernan, Michael R.
- Hennessy, Thomas.
- Hennigan, John.
- Henry, Mark.
- Hogan, Patrick (Galway).
- Holohan, Richard.
- Jordan, Michael.
- Kelly, Patrick Michael.
- Law, Hugh Alexander.
- Leonard, Patrick.
- Lynch, Finian.
- Mathews, Arthur Patrick.
- McDonogh, Martin.
- MacEóin, Seán.
- McFadden, Michael Og.
- McGilligan, Patrick.
- Mongan, Joseph W.
- Mulcahy, Richard.
- Murphy, James E.
- Murphy, Joseph Xavier.
- Nolan, John Thomas.
- O'Connell, Richard.
- O'Connor, Bartholomew.
- O'Leary, Daniel.
- O'Mahony, Dermot Gun.
- O'Sullivan, Gearóid.
- O'Sullivan. John Marcus.
- Reynolds, Patrick.
- Rice, Vincent.
- Roddy, Martin.
- White, Vincent Joseph.
- Wolfe, George.
- Wolfe, Jasper Travers.
Níl
- Aiken, Frank.
- Allen, Denis.
- Anthony, Richard.
- Blaney, Neal.
- Boland, Gerald.
- Bourke, Daniel.
- Brady, Seán.
- Briscoe, Robert.
- Buckley, Daniel.
- Carty, Frank.
- Clery, Michael.
- Coburn, James.
- Colbert, James.
- Colohan, Hugh.
- Cooney, Eamon.
- Corish, Richard.
- Corry, Martin John.
- Crowley, Tadhg..
- Davin, William.
- Derrig, Thomas.
- De Valera, Eamon.
- Fahy, Frank.
- Flinn, Hugo.
- Fogarty, Andrew.
- Geoghegan, James.
- Gorry, Patrick J.
- Goulding, John.
- Hayes, Seán.
- Jordan, Stephen.
- Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
- Kent, William R.
- Kerlin, Frank.
- Killilea, Mark.
- Kilroy, Michael.
- Lemass, Seán F.
- Little, Patrick John.
- Maguire, Ben.
- McEllistrim, Thomas.
- MacEntee, Seán.
- Moore, Séamus.
- Morrissey, Daniel.
- Mullins, Thomas.
- Murphy, Timothy Joseph.
- O'Connell, Thomas J.
- O'Dowd, Patrick Joseph.
- O'Hanlon, John F.
- O'Kelly, Seán T.
- O'Reilly, Matthew.
- O'Reilly, Thomas.
- Powell, Thomas P.
- Ruttledge, Patrick J.
- Ryan, James.
- Sexton, Martin.
- Sheehy, Timothy (Tipp.).
- Smith, Patrick.
- Walsh, Richard.
- Ward, Francis C.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Duggan and P. S. Doyle; Níl, Deputies G. Boland and Allen.
Motion declared carried.
Ordered: That the Bill be sent to the Seanad.