Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 17 Jul 1930

Vol. 35 No. 11

Vocational Education Bill, 1930—From the Seanad.

The Dáil went into Committee to consider amendments from the Seanad to the Vocational Education Bill, 1930.

Minister for Education (Professor O'Sullivan)

I suggest that the House should agree with all the amendments. The bulk of the amendments are due to the fact that it was necessary to bring the Bill into harmony with the Greater Dublin Bill. It was not possible to introduce the amendments at an earlier stage, because the views of the Seanad on that Bill had not been made clear. There is, in addition, a proposal to include Bray amongst the scheduled urban districts, and that necessitates a rather long consequential amendment (No. 17). I will deal with one or two of the other amendments when they arise. I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in the following amendment:—

Section 21, sub-section (2). Two new sub-sections inserted before the sub-section as follows:—

"(2) The Minister may from time to time by order require a vocational education committee to appoint a sub-committee to exercise and perform in relation to any part of the vocational educational area of such committee such specified powers, duties and functions of such committee as in the opinion of the Minister can be better or more conveniently exercised or performed by a sub-committee and whenever any such order is made and in force it shall be the duty of such committee to comply with the requirements thereof.

(3) The Minister may, as and when he thinks fit, revoke an order made by him under the foregoing sub-section, and thereupon such order shall cease to be in force."

The House may remember that a case was put up on behalf of two existing technical education committees, one of them rural and one urban—Tipperary, and the other Bray. The case of Bray was met by separating the rural part of North Wicklow from Bray, and scheduling Bray as an urban district. That could not be done in the case of Tipperary on account of the smaller size of the town, comparatively speaking, and this is an attempt to meet the claim of the Tipperary Committee. The Minister may insist on certain things—for instance, that in Tipperary, rural and urban, a sub-committee be appointed with definite powers.

Question put, and agreed to.

Professor O'Sullivan

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in the following amendment:

Section 27, sub-section (2). After the word "officer" wherever the same occurs the words "or servant" inserted.

This amendment is in connection with the dismissal of employees of technical education committees by the Minister, so that servants, as well as officers, shall have applied to them the clause dealing with inquiries—clause 105, I think.

Question put, and agreed to.

Professor O'Sullivan

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in the following amendment:—

Section 46, sub-section (1). After the word "annual" in line 5 the word "local" inserted.

This is merely a drafting amendment.

Question put and agreed to.

Professor O'Sullivan

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in the following amendment:—

Section 48, sub-section (4). The sub-section deleted and a new sub-sections substituted therefor as follows:—

"(4) No payments shall be made out of the vocational education fund of a vocational education committee except by the treasurer of such committee on the direction in writing of such committee, and every payment so directed shall be made out of such fund by such treasurer and every such direction by such committee to such treasurer shall be a sufficient authority to such treasurer to make the payments thereby directed to be made to the person or persons mentioned therein."

In the Bill as it stood the clause, as worded, would practically necessitate that a bank should almost act as auditors for every account of a vocational education committee before it could pay out anything. This amendment carries out the ordinary practice by which, on being presented with the Treasurer's note, the bank can pay out in the ordinary way.

Mr. Moore

May I ask if the Minister intends to issue an instruction defining what a "direction" is? Is it not likely that every Committee will put a different interpretation on it?

Professor O'Sullivan

We can look after that by regulation afterwards.

Mr. Moore

I suggest that if the direction given annually in the Public Bodies Order were applied it would meet the case.

Professor O'Sullivan

It was in order to bring this into harmony with the ordinary public procedure that this was done.

Question put and agreed to.

Professor O'Sullivan

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in the following amendment:

Section 53. A new sub-section added at the end of the section as follows:—

"(2) In making such regulations regard may be had to (amongst other things) the following matters:—

(a) the annual local contribution payable to each vocational education committee,

(b) the amount of the rate required to raise such annual local contribution, and

(c) the population of the vocational education area of such committee."

The House will remember in dealing with the finances of the vocational education committees I indicated that so far as future development in that line was concerned: that is, having stabilised, so to speak, the present grants to existing committees, it was the intention on the whole, roughly speaking, to give a fifty-fifty contribution from the Government; that is, according to the amount put up by the rates a similar sum would be subscribed by the Government. It was urged in the Seanad that that would be unfair to certain districts and that I had bound myself down rather too rigidly. This is an amendment pointing out that certain things may be taken into consideration; that is, in some cases, a grant of more than 50 per cent. might be given and in other cases less. I indicated, however, in the Seanad that it was not the intention in accepting the amendment to modify in any way the promise of fifty-fifty grants, so far as the country as a whole is concerned.

Mr. Fahy

I take it this amendment will enable the Minister to make a larger grant, say in West Galway or Mayo, or part of Donegal or Kerry than in other districts?

Professor O'Sullivan

The western portions of these counties are dealt with in the Gaeltacht. This would mean that it may not be necessary to give a fifty-fifty grant in the case of some counties and possibly it could be a little more generous in others.

Mr. Moore

Are the powers given here already implicit in the Bill?

Professor O'Sullivan

Quite so. The amendment is more a pointer than anything else. The amendment, if you like, is not, strictly speaking, necessary, but I bound myself strictly down to fifty-fifty. This is a pointer that that is not to be taken too literally.

Mr. Moore

It is a rather extraordinary departure in my opinion in that it invites Deputies to put forward all sorts of suggestions as amendments. The amendment amounts really to three suggestions.

Professor O'Sullivan

Quite so.

Question put and agreed to.

The following amendments were agreed to:

6. Section 60, sub-section (2). The words "borough or urban district" deleted in line 54 and the words "or other borough" substituted therefor.

7. Section 65, sub-section (1). the words "borough or urban district" deleted in line 58 and the words "or other borough" substituted therefor.

8. Section 65, sub-section (1). The words "borough or urban districts" deleted in lines 62-63 and the words "or other boroughs" substituted therefor.

9. Section 81, sub-section (2). The words "borough or urban district" deleted in line 56 and the words "or other borough" substituted therefor.

10. Section 85, sub-section (1). The words "borough or urban district" deleted in line 29 and the words "or other borough" substituted therefor.

11. Section 85, sub-section (1). The words "boroughs or urban districts" deleted in lines 33-34 and the words "or other boroughs" substituted therefor.

Professor O'Sullivan

I move: that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment 12.

Section 96. A new sub-section added at the end of the section as follows:—

"(4) All moneys raised by a rate struck by a local authority for the service of the year beginning on the 1st day of April, 1930, and which but for this Act would have been paid to a committee appointed or partly appointed by such local authority to exercise and perform functions, powers and duties transferred by this Part of this Act to a vocational education committee and would have been applicable by such first-mentioned committee to the purposes of such functions, powers and duties, shall (so far as such moneys are not paid to such committee before the appointed day) be paid by such local authority to the said vocational education committee."

The occasion of this amendment is the scheduling of Bray as an urban district under the Act, but it is of a general character. It simply means that in some cases the moneys actually paid in and that are due to the committee are not paid over until the month of June. As the Bill becomes operative on the 1st April, this is only a section to see that the moneys due are paid over.

Question put and agreed to.

The following amendment was agreed to:—

Section 105, sub-section (1). After the word "officer" in line 46 the words "or a servant" inserted and before the word "and" in line 47 the words "or servant (as the case may be)" inserted.

Professor O'Sullivan

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment 14:—

Section 111, sub-section (2). The word "not" deleted in line 25 and the words "less than the salary to which such teacher is entitled" substituted therefor.

As the section stood, once a scale of salaries was laid down it was not possible for the committee to give a higher remuneration, even if by doing so they could get the services of what they consider a very efficient teacher. This is to give more liberty in that respect.

Question put and agreed to.

Professor O'Sullivan

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment 15:—

New section. Before Section 112 a new section inserted as follows:—

"112. The Minister may by regulations made under this Act prescribe the minimum rates of travelling and maintenance expenses payable to teachers and officers of vocational education committees who have to travel in the performance of their duties."

This gives power to the Minister in connection with travelling expenses.

Question put and agreed to.

Professor O'Sullivan

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment 16:

New section. Before section 116, and in Part X., a new section inserted as follows:—

"116.—(1) In this section

the expression "the Dublin Act" means the Local Government (Dublin) Act, 1930 (No. of 1930);

the expression "the City Corporation" means the Right Honourable the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of Dublin;

the expression "the Borough Corporation" means the Corporation of Dun Laoghaire;

the expression "the City vocational education area" means the vocational education area which is coterminous with the county borough of Dublin;

the expression "the City vocational education committee" means the vocational education committee for the City vocational education area;

the expression "the Borough vocational education area" means the vocational education area which is coterminous with the Borough of Dun Laoghaire;

the expression "the Borough vocational education committee" means the vocational education committee for the Borough vocational education area;

the expression "the County vocational education area" means the vocational education area which is coterminous with the County of Dublin exclusive of the Borough of Dun Laoghaire;

the expression "the County vocational education committee" means the vocational education committee for the County vocational education area;

the expression "the added rural area" has the meaning given to it by Section 1 of the Dublin Act.

(2) The following provisions shall have effect in relation to the application of this Act in the county borough of Dublin, that is to say—

(a) the areas which, at the passing of this Act, are respectively the urban district of Pembroke and the urban district of Rathmines and Rathgar shall for the purposes of this Act be deemed to be included in and to form part of the county borough of Dublin as from the passing of this Act;

(b) the added rural area shall, in accordance with the Dublin Act, become included in and form part of the county borough of Dublin on and from the 1st day of April, 1931;

(c) in the construction of references in this Act (including this section) to the county borough of Dublin, whether specifically or as included in a reference to county boroughs generally, regard shall be had to the provisions of paragraph (a) of this sub-section and also to the provisions of the Dublin Act whereby the added rural area becomes included in and forms part of the county borough of Dublin on and from the 1st day of April, 1931;

(d) in the preparation, consideration and approval of the annual scheme for the City vocational education area for the local financial year commencing on the 1st day of April, 1931, regard shall be had to the fact that the added rural area will be included in the county borough of Dublin in that year;

(e) Section 24 of the Dublin Act shall not apply to any officer of the council of the urban district of Pembroke or of the council of the urban district of Rathmines and Rathgar or of a committee of either of those councils who is transferred by that Act to the service of the City Corporation and is subsequently transferred by this Act to the service of the City vocational education committee and in lieu thereof it is hereby enacted that every such officer shall, while he is in the service of the City Corporation by virtue of his said transfer thereto, perform the same duties and be entitled to the same salary and emoluments and the same conditions of service as he performed and was entitled to in the service of the said council or committee immediately before his said transfer therefrom;

(f) during the period between the day which is the appointed day for the purposes of the Dublin Act and the day which is the appointed day for the purposes of Part VII of this Act, the City Corporation shall itself administer without the intervention of any committee the services which will become transferred on the last-mentioned appointed day to the City vocational education committee by virtue of this Act;

(g) sub-sections (1) and (2) of Section 40 of the Dublin Act shall not apply in relation to the election of the members of the City vocational education committee;

(h) at the first meeting of the City vocational education committee the Dublin City Manager and Town Clerk shall act as secretary to such committee.

(3) The following provisions shall have effect in relation to the application of this Act in the Borough of Dun Laoghaire, that is to say—

(a) for the purposes of this Act the Borough of Dun Laoghaire shall be deemed to come into existence on the passing of this Act:

(b) Section 24 of the Dublin Act shall not apply to any officer of the council of the urban district of Blackrock, the council of the urban district of Dun Laoghaire or the council of the urban district of Dalkey or of any committee of any of those councils who is transferred by that Act to the service of the Borough Corporation and is subsequently transferred by this Act to the service of the Borough vocational education committee and in lieu thereof it is hereby enacted that every such officer shall, while he is in the service of the Borough Corporation by virtue of his said transfer thereto, perform the same duties and be entitled to the same salary and emoluments and the same conditions of service as he performed and was entitled to in the service of the said council or committee immediately before his said transfer therefrom;

(c) during the period between the day which is the appointed day for for the purposes of the Dublin Act and the day which is the appointed day for the purposes of Part VII of this Act, the Borough Corporation shall itself administer without the intervention of any committee the services in the Borough of Dun Laoghaire (other than the area which is at the passing of this Act the urban district of Killiney and Ballybrack) which will become transferred on the last-mentioned appointed day to the Borough vocational education committee by virtue of this Act;

(d) Section 48 of the Dublin Act shall not apply in relation to the election of the members of the Borough vocational education committee;

(e) at the first meeting of the Borough vocational education committee the Dun Laoghaire Borough Manager and Town Clerk shall act as secretary to such committee.

(4) The following provisions shall have effect in relation to the application of this Act in the county of Dublin, that is to say—

(a) Section 20 of the Dublin Act shall not apply in respect of any officer of the council of the county of Dublin or of any joint committee of such council and the council of an urban district who is transferred by this Act to the service of the County vocational education committee;

(b) in the construction of references in this Act (including this section) to the county of Dublin whether specifically or as included in a reference to counties generally, regard shall be had to the provisions of the Dublin Act whereby the added rural area is transferred from the County of Dublin to the County Borough of Dublin on and from the 1st day of April, 1931;

(c) in the preparation, consideration and approval of the annual scheme for the county vocational education area for the local financial year commencing on the 1st day of April, 1931, regard shall be had to the fact that the added rural area will not be included in the County of Dublin in that year.

(5) The City vocational education committee shall have the same powers of granting compensation in respect of loss of employment to such of its employees (other than officers) as were, immediately before the day which is the appointed day for the purposes of Part VII of this Act, employees of the City Corporation as the City Corporation would have had if such employees had remained in its employment, and for that purpose the following provisions shall have effect, that is to say—

(a) every such employee shall be entitled to reckon his employment by the City Corporation and also his employment (if any) by the council of the urban district of Pembroke or the council of the urban district of Rathmines and Rathgar as employment by the City vocational education committee; and

(b) Section 53 of the Act of 1925 shall, in relation to such employees only, apply to the City vocational education committee as if that committee was a local body such as is mentioned in that section but with the modification that references in that section to Section 50 of that Act shall be construed as references to the provisions of this Act which are enacted in substitution for the said Section 50.

(6) Sub-sections (1) and (2) of Section 18 of the Cork City Management Act, 1929 (No. 1 of 1929) shall not apply in relation to the election of the members of the vocational education committee for the vocational education area which is coterminous with the county borough of Cork."

This is an amendment, as I have already explained, that was necessary owing to the Greater Dublin Bill. It is a purely drafting amendment to bring this Bill into harmony with the Greater Dublin Bill.

Question put, and agreed to.

Professor O'Sullivan

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment 17:—

17. New section. After the foregoing section a new section inserted as follows:—

117. (1) In this section the expression "the Bray Council" means the council of the urban district of Bray, the expression "the Bray vocational education committee" means the vocational education committee for the vocational education area which is coterminous with the urban district of Bray, the expression "the North Wicklow committee" means the joint committee appointed for the purposes of technical instruction under the Act of 1899 by the council of the county of Wicklow and the Bray Council.

(2) The following provisions shall have effect in relation to the application of Part VII. of this Act to the North Wicklow committee, that is to say,

(a) the functions, powers and duties which, immediately before the appointed day, are exercised and performed through or by the North Wicklow committee shall, in so far as they relate to the urban district of Bray, be transferred by Section 95 of this Act to the Bray vocational education committee, and shall, in so far as they relate to any other part of the functional area of the North Wicklow committee, be transferred by the said Section 95 to the Wicklow county vocational education committee,

(b) for the purposes of the said Part VII (except Section 95), the Bray vocational education committee shall be deemed to be the vocational education committee to which the functions, powers and duties exercised and performed through or by the North Wicklow committee are transferred by the said Section 95 and the said Part VII (except Section 95) shall have effect accordingly,

(c) during the period commencing on the day which is the appointed day for the purposes of the said Part VII and ending on the 31st day of March, 1931, the Bray vocational education committee shall provide throughout the functional area of the North Wicklow committee the services which the last-mentioned committee would have been liable to provide in that area if this Act had not been passed,

(d) at the first meeting of the Bray vocational education committee the town clerk of the Bray Council shall act as secretary to such committee.

(3) The following provisions shall have effect while and for so long as the Bray Council continues to be dissolved under an Order made by the Minister for Local Government and Public Health before the passing of this Act, that is to say—

(a) the function of the Bray Council in relation to the election of members of the Bray vocational committee shall be performed by the person who is for the time being performing in consequence of the said order the duties of the Bray Council,

(b) so much of Section 8 of this Act as would require any members of the Bray vocational education committee to be members of the Bray Council shall not have effect,

(c) the functions of the estimates sub-committee (within the meaning of Section 45 of this Act) of the Bray vocational education committee shall be performed by the said person who is for the time being performing in consequence of the said order the duties of the Bray Council.

This is consequential on the scheduling of Bray as a separate urban district.

Question put and agreed to.

Professor O'Sullivan

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment 18:—

First Schedule. The Schedule deleted and a new Schedule substituted therefor, as follows:—

FIRST SCHEDULE.

The Scheduled Urban Districts.

The Urban District of Bray.

The Borough of Drogheda.

The Borough of Dun Laoghaire.

The Urban District of Galway.

The Borough of Sligo.

The Urban District of Tralee.

The Borough of Wexford.

The principal change is in the case of Bray. A case was put up on behalf of Bray, and I also received a deputation from the Bray Technical Committee. I pointed out to them that it was impossible to do quite what they wanted, namely, to make, a separate county practically for the purposes of this Bill of the district of North Wicklow—that that would practically mean a second Bill. However, I was able to meet the committee in what was really the essential that they wanted, and they indicated to me that they were quite satisfied with the solution, namely, the scheduling of Bray as a separate urban district.

Question put and agreed to.

The following amendment was agreed to:—

19. Fourth Schedule. The Schedule deleted and a new Schedule substituted therefor, as follows:—

FOURTH SCHEDULE.

County or other Boroughs referred to in Parts V and VI of this Act.

The County Borough of Cork.

The County Borough of Dublin.

The County Borough of Limerick.

The County Borough of Waterford.

The Borough of Dun Laoghaire.

The Dáil went out of Committee.

Reported: That the Committee had agreed with the amendments made by the Seanad.

Question—"That the Dáil agree with the Committee in its report"— put and agreed to.