Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 5 Jun 1931

Vol. 38 No. 21

In Committee on Finance. - Vote No. 54—Fisheries and Gaeltacht Services (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following amendment: "That the Estimate be referred back for further consideration" (Deputy Derrig).

Mr. Shaw

Last night before the House adjourned I was drawing attention to the great importance of inland fisheries and I mentioned that the lakes and rivers of Ireland were a gold mine if properly developed and better advertised. No doubt the Irish Tourist Development Association are doing very valuable work in that respect. They have issued leaflets drawing attention to the scenic and sporting attractions of each county and they have been circulated all over the world. The May fly fishing is now in full swing on the celebrated and beautiful lakes in Westmeath. For once in a way the conditions are very favourable and anglers are having a record season up to the present. No matter how plentiful the fish may be if you have an east wind and sun you cannot have success. Last night I gave figures as to the number of fish that are being caught, but as fishing stories are generally supposed to be exaggerated I have got a copy of a local paper and I intend to read from it briefly its report of the fishing there. It says:—

Lough Ennel has excelled itself this dapping season. From the first day the May-fly appeared on the water, sport was consistently good and anyone who went out on the lake was always sure of getting some trout. During the past week, Wednesday, Friday and Saturday were days which gave extra good sport, but it was reserved for Sunday to stand pre-eminent in the record number of trout that were taken. Enthusiastic anglers reached the lake early on Sunday morning and, though some rain fell, the morning brightened up and a nice south-east wind began to blow. The Lake presented a very animated appearance and between twenty and thirty boats could be counted eagerly searching the water for rising trout. There was a good rise of May-fly and prospects looked promising when it was seen that several roads were, very early in the day, engaged playing fish. About the middle of the day most of the boats had concentrated on the fishing ground from Shanogue Island to the Borrough Hill. We regret it is not possible to give an exact account of all the trout that were taken, but we believe all the boats must have at least four each on an average basis, and we are pleased to learn that some visitors and tourists who were on the Lake had also good baskets. The following catches will give a fair idea of how excellent sport was. Mr. P. W. Shaw, T.D., returned with the record number of fifteen very fine trout. Dr. Keelan got eleven; Mr. Hutchinson eight; Messrs. Reilly, Dooly and Doherty eight, some of them very heavy fish. Mr. Weir got six; Messrs. Thorogood and Stenson four; Mr. E. Murphy four.

That quotation is from "The Westmeath Nationalist." The reason I have drawn attention to that very important matter is that that fishing has not been obtained there without local effort. The Minister has been severely criticised in this House on the ground that he has not done sufficient for the fishing industry, but I say that sufficient local effort is not being made by people in their various local districts. I will give the House the reasons why fishing in Westmeath has been so successful, in the hope that other counties will do the same good work which we have been doing. In the past very few of the fish that went up the rivers to spawn returned to the lakes. Most of them were speared and other classes of weapons were used to destroy them. The result was that thousands of fish that went to spawn were completely lost. Some of them were packed in barrels and salted and were no good to anybody, but did grave injury. The Civic Guards have done wonderful work in connection with the protection of rivers, and I would pay them a high tribute in that respect. They have patrolled the rivers at night and have seen that the fish that went up to spawn were not interfered with and were allowed to return to the lakes. In addition huge quantities of pike which came to spawn in shallow water were shot. Everyone knows that pike are the biggest enemies which trout have. That is another reason for the wonderful fishing which we are now enjoying.

In addition cormorants, which are also enemies of trout, are estimated to eat their own weight of fish per day. Large numbers of these birds have been destroyed. The Fish Preservation Society have been paying 2s. 6d. for each head of a cormorant brought to them. Anybody who brings the head of a cormorant to the Society gets 2s. 6d. As far as Lough Ennel is concerned, these birds have found out that it is anything but a health resort for them.

Dr. Hennessy

They are public health scavengers.

Mr. Shaw

They eat a lot of trout. Some speaker mentioned the case of inland fisheries and the reason I have spoken at such length on this matter is that I want to see the other counties interest themselves in their lakes and rivers. I think the Minister has given us every possible assistance in the work which we have done. Rivers and lakes, in regard to their fishing properties, can be very much improved by means of hatcheries and putting trout into them. I think a good deal of the criticism of the Minister is very unfair. In my opinion he has made great efforts to improve this very important industry. He is optimistic that the fishing industry will derive great benefit from his latest schemes. There is no person who should be in a better position to prophesy that, and I hope and believe he will be successful. I congratulate him on the help he has given us in the development of what I say is a very important and valuable industry in the country.

Mr. Clery

We are proposing that this Estimate be referred back for reconsideration and I think we are justified in taking up that attitude. It cannot be said from the speeches that have been made from these benches that we do not appreciate the difficulties with which the new Association and the Minister have to contend. The difficulties are very great. Seeing that the industry has almost run into its final stages of decay, we realise that the difficulties are practically insurmountable. It is only by a very big effort and by co-operation—the co-operation of fishermen, the co-operation of public bodies, the co-operation of every member of every Party in this House, and, of course, the very friendly co-operation of the Minister for Finance—that the necessary effort can be made to bring back this industry to a prosperous condition. To my mind the Association which was set up, a very considerable time ago now, have not put the necessary energy into their work.

The Minister stated yesterday that they have now diagnosed the case. I think it was quite evident to anybody who had paid any attention to the industry for the past five or six years— and the Minister and his Department have been inquiring into it for a period of eight years—what was wrong in the case of the fishing industry. The industry has gone into decay and the diagnosis of the case should not take a number of months. I think it is an immediate cure we want and the Association should have been in a position months ago to provide that cure. They have certainly been too slow and I am greatly afraid from what has happened in the past few months and from their methods in general that they are going to fall into the old rut out of which we hoped the Minister and his Department had been rescued by the setting up of this Association. The difficulties are certainly great, but financial support is now at the beck and call of the Association and they should not be too chary or too nervous in tackling the matter.

We know very well that there is no opinion abroad that the fishing industry could be made a great success. Public opinion seems to be that it is a dead industry, and that sea-fishing is not going to be a paying proposition, anyhow, for a considerable number of years. We have had it told to us very often that we are not a fish-eating people. The quantity of fish that is consumed in this country is very small, but the amount of fish which we import is very large. Our exports of fish in recent years have been continually declining. The consumption of fish here at present is, however, not an indication that a very prosperous market could not be organised in the country.

[An Leas-Cheann Comhairle took the Chair.]

That is one of the greatest difficulties. We have not only to create a market for fish; but we will have to supply the boats and nets, and even to supply the fish in the sea, in so far as we have to protect the fish from the foreign trawlers. This is the very big difficulty that we are up against. The fact that we are not a fish-consuming people at present is no indication that a very big market could not be provided here for fish. I think the only reason why a very considerable quantity of fish is not consumed here is because there is not a continuous supply. If orders are placed in an inland town or even in a seaport town for a six-months' supply of fish, there is no fishery association or number of fishermen in any of our seaport towns who could at the moment accept such an order. That is because their boats are not properly equipped. They are hampered in that way. Then again I am informed on very reliable authority that where there are good shoals of fish at times they are attacked and captured by the foreign trawlers while the local fishermen cannot go out in the deep waters and get these fish. The diagnosis or remedy at the moment is to get down to the work and to supply suitable boats and nets to the fishermen.

The Minister can rest assured of the co-operation of the fishermen and of the co-operation of the Deputies here. That co-operation will be given. Public sympathy is with the Minister and with the Association. I think they could be a great deal more courageous in going ahead and tackling the thing in a right way. Another reason why I am going to vote against this Estimate is because one of the big things which is the great drawbrack here, and which will continue to hamper this industry, is this menace of the foreign trawlers. Years ago we were promised that something effective would be done to tackle this question of poaching by the foreign trawlers. The Muirchu cost a considerable amount of money to maintain, and this year there was an increased cost of £600 for the Muirchu. That is an absolute waste of money. The whole amount of money spent on that Vote is a waste when we consider the fact that for the past year there has been only one capture and one prosecution of foreign trawlers by that boat. There were nineteen or twenty reports came into the Department that foreign trawlers were fishing in Free State waters. There was only one captured and fined for the whole year. That does not justify the expenditure. I think the cost of the boat is about £10,000, and it will be a little more now. Surely, then, one capture in a whole year and a fine of £100 does not justify that expenditure at all.

I think the Minister should seriously consider the scrapping of that boat and think out some better method of protecting our sea fisheries from foreign trawlers. I wonder if we had some small patrol boats in some individual fishing quarters, if it would be possible to have the co-operation of the Army aeroplanes which are doing nothing at present, if, perhaps, we exclude joyriding over the Curragh. If the co-operation of the aeroplanes could be got, and armed patrol boats stationed on the local fishing waters, it would be as effective as the Muirchu has proved to be. I think it is negligence on the part of the Minister and his Department that they have not succeeded after eight years in finding some better method of protecting our fisheries from this menace of foreign trawlers. I have been told time and again that along the different parts of the coast of Mayo many times during the past year numbers of foreign trawlers have been fishing quite close to the shore, and no fish-is left for the local fishermen when they go out. They go out when they see the foreign trawlers fishing there, but the foreign trawlers have captured the fish before them. Unless the Minister gets down to the question of protecting our fisheries from foreign trawlers. I think the present expenditure is wasted. The cost of £10,000 a year or more on the Muirchu for the protection of our fisheries is an absolute waste of money. I do not think that the Minister could justify that expenditure. This is one of the main reason why I am going to vote against this Estimate, or vote to have it sent back.

The question of inland fisheries has been talked about by Deputy Shaw. I am going to take up quite a different attitude on this question of inland fisheries to that taken up by Deputy Shaw. I think we have come to the time now when we ought to consider seriously whether the inland fisheries which are held and owned by Boards of Conservators throughout the country should not be confiscated by the State in the interests of the State. It is a rather serious suggestion to make, but in looking back through old history nobody will deny that these fisheries were confiscated by the predecessors of the present owners in the old days.

Mr. Gorey

Is the Deputy stating that these fisheries are the property of the conservators and does he mean that they should be confiscated?

Mr. Clery

I would not make this serious suggestion now if the Boards of Conservators who own fishing areas in our inland rivers were making any serious effort to work those fisheries in the interests both of themselves and of the community. One great attraction for tourists in any country is fishing and the absence of fishing is a drawback. The tourist industry in this country is valued at something like £2,000,000 a year. That could be easily doubled if full advantage were taken by the Boards of Conservators of the very valuable fishing areas that they own.

Mr. Lynch

For the information of the Deputy I want to say that Boards of Conservators are elected bodies. Some of them are ordinary working net fishing men at the mouths of the rivers. It is wrong to say that they own the fisheries. Private individual members of the boards may own fisheries but the boards of fishery conservators as such do not own any fishery. The board is just an administrative body.

Mr. Clery

I am aware of that but there are grants made by the State to these boards and to my mind they are not making the necessary effort to bring people from abroad to these fisheries. They are not making an effort to bring these fisheries before the notice of tourists. That is a charge that I am making and I think greater interference by the State in that respect would be of very great value to our inland fisheries. There are private individuals who own some of those salmon fisheries throughout the country and I know very well you cannot blame them for running those fisheries to their own advantage only. These fisheries are a great asset to the State and I really think we should seriously consider whether those fisheries and in particular the salmon fisheries now owned by private individuals should not be bought out by the State. The Government should consider seriously buying out the private interests in these fisheries. I believe that if that were done by the State it would probably cost a considerable amount of money; but by taking up the matter enthusiastically and having some kind of a board in charge of running these fisheries we would, in a short period, increase tourist traffic in this country to the value of £2,000,000 a year more to the State.

You will find tourists always where there is good fishing. No advertisements, statistics or publications go abroad to point out the great value of our inland fisheries. I think the Boards of Conservators should be told that no further grants will be given to inland fisheries, salmon fisheries in particular, that no reductions in rate will be permitted, unless they make a serious effort to develop their fisheries. If these inland fisheries were properly advertised they would form a great asset to the State. The Boards of Conservators are being assisted by the Gárda. There is no doubt the Gárda have done very great work in preventing poaching on our rivers. The people who own the rivers do not seem to appreciate the good work the Gárda have done for them. I think they should give some return to the State for the assistance that is given them in the way of protecting their fishing. The Boards of Conservators seem to have only a personal interest in the matter. The inland fisheries, if they are properly run, would constitute a great State industry.

I observe there is an increase of £600 in regard to the inspection of rural industries, and we have also an increase of £1,000 for vocational instruction. How do those increases arise? I see there are also three Gaelic domestic teachers in the Gaeltacht in connection with rural industries. Perhaps the idea is that they go to the various houses and give instruction to the people in cooking and other matters. I consider that is an absolute waste of money. It is wasteful to have three domestic teachers visiting the houses in the Gaeltacht, telling the people how to keep themselves clean and how to cook. There is no necessity for that. You will find in the Gaeltacht people as shrewd and as well able to keep themselves as people in any other part of the country. You may, in some instances, find them slovenly, but that is a condition of things that is not due to neglect on their part; it is one of the results of the unfortunate circumstances under which these poor people have to live. Those teachers could be better employed, and the money they cost would be better applied in the interests of the people of the Gaeltacht. I think the Minister should withdraw those people or else put them into positions which would be of much more advantage to the people there.

A sum of £40,000 is being applied to the purchase of raw material in connection with rural industries. What raw material is it proposed to purchase and what guidance have the buyers in their purchases? What assurance can the Minister give us that this is a safe investment? It is a large figure and I would like more information about it. I would like to congratulate the Minister and the Department upon the setting up of the Depot at Beggar's Bush. They have done very good work in that respect, but that is not all that is necessary. There should be some effort to create an atmosphere abroad in favour of the purchase of Irish homespuns and other articles of Irish manufacture. If there were such an effort it would have useful reactions on the rural industries. It is unfortunate that the Government have not given to the people the headline that they should give. They should direct the minds of the people to their own industries and they should make the public feel that it is the duty of every man and woman at all times to purchase Irish-manufactured goods. No headline being given by the Government, it is hard for the Minister or his Department to create a healthy atmosphere abroad in favour of Irish-manufactured goods.

I was informed quite recently, and I think it is worth mentioning here, even though it is probably a very unwise thing to do politically, that in Galway City, which is boosted as being the chief city of the Gaeltacht, and which is a city that has obtained very great Government assistance by way of subsidies to the Gaelic University and in many other ways, there is very little disposition on the part of the principal shopkeepers to favour Irish-manufactured goods. I was speaking to a gentleman who was in Galway City not many months ago and he had to visit shops in back streets before he could find a decent suit of Irish-manufactured cloth displayed in the windows. The best way to create a demand for Irish-manufactured goods is through the shopkeepers. I am not saying that the conditions in Galway in that respect are any worse than in most other towns in the Free State, but it must be remembered that Galway is the chief city of the Gaeltacht and its University and other things are getting Government subsidies simply because it is the chief city of the Gaeltacht. The principal business people there are adopting a very poor attitude towards Irish-manufactured articles. It is regrettable that they do not give a better lead to the public by displaying the goods manufactured in the Gaeltacht.

Mr. McDonogh

On a point of order, I can assure the Deputy that if he goes to Galway City he can get Irish-manufactured goods in practically every shop there.

Mr. Clery

I am sure that is so, but they are not displayed in the windows.

Mr. McDonogh

Deputies on the opposite benches should not stand up and, merely from hearsay, make charges that they cannot substantiate. That attitude is not fair.

Mr. Clery

I believe I can substantiate it.

Mr. McDonogh

The Gaeltacht people have a shop in the principal street of Galway. Of course, it is not my business, but I am aware that in every shop of any importance in the city you can get Irish-manufactured goods.

Mr. Clery

That is perfectly correct, but as far as a window display of Irish-manufactured goods is concerned, you will not find it. I was there myself, and I know that was the position up to quite recently. In the principal shops in Galway you will not find as big a display of Irish-manufactured goods as you will find even in Dublin, and we often talk of Dublin being a shoneen city. If you go to Galway you will not find there anything to indicate, as far as the display of Irish-manufactured goods is concerned, that it is the chief city of the Gaeltacht. I dare say you will find Irish-manufactured goods in practically every business house, but you have to seek them out.

Mr. McDonogh

I am speaking with authority when I assure the Deputy that the business premises in Galway have Irish goods.

Mr. Clery

One would have practically to coax the business people there to sell them, and I say that that is a very poor head-line to give. I am not saying that you would not find towns just as bad in my own county; but when we give big subsidies to Galway, and we boost it as being the chief city of the Gaeltacht, there should be some suitable atmosphere there.

Mr. McDonogh

I may say that there is no industry in Galway City subsidised. If you pay professors to teach the Irish language in the College, and if you term that subsidising an Irish industry, then Galway is subsidised.

Mr. Clery

Very often we attack the Minister for Fisheries in a severe way, but when an effort is now being made by the Minister and his Department to boost Gaeltacht homespuns and Gaeltacht industries generally, I would like that all the work would not be thrown on the Minister's shoulders. I would like that the business people of this country would give a headline too. By their doing that, they will make very light the uphill work that must be done by any Government in this country to create a healthy atmosphere abroad for Irish industry. Deputy McDonogh probably misunderstands altogether what I want to convey about Galway. I am not up against Deputy McDonagh in this question of Irish industry. The Deputy might like to see a display of Irish-manufactured goods in Galway as I would like it but they do not do it. The main atmosphere of Galway City and Ballina when you go in is that the keeper of foreign stuff rules the town. Imported and shoddy stuffs are displayed and the product of Connemara, which is at their doors, has no place in their windows. I would like them to reverse things. It would be of great assistance to the Minister and the country. We would not need to tell foreigners coming in from abroad about Connemara stuff. They would see it in the windows and they do not see it at present. If the Minister's Department or the Government would give a headline in this respect and make our people realise that Irish industries as far as clothes, homespuns, etc., greatly depend on business people pushing their sale it would be a good thing. If that could be done it would make things very much easier for all concerned.

In any town you go to people push foreign goods first. I have often gone in and asked for Irish socks or other Irish products. When the shopkeeper has had to take back two or three articles of foreign manufacture, he then finds fault with the Irish article. Nearly everyone has had that experience. The people who are living on the import of foreign shoddy push foreign shoddy and find fault with Irish manufactured goods when you demand them. That is a rotten atmosphere which you find abroad, and the Government has not given a lead in that way. At any Government function in Dublin they have not shown that the best and the classiest way to be dressed is not in foreign silks or foreign shoddy or long tails, but in Irish home-spuns. Even in the old days when the Castle levées were held there was a place set aside for Irish-manufactured goods. The Minister for Fisheries, I admit, is making an effort, but the fight is too uphill until a lead is given by the Government as a whole and then by the business people. Then you will have purchasers taking that example, and making every effort to push and buy Irish-manufactured goods.

On this Vote also there is the question of housing in the Gaeltacht. Knowing the difficulties that confronted the Department when that Housing Act was passed, I have little fault to find with the effort made by the Gaeltacht Housing Department. Nothing has happened in the County Mayo for a long time to make people feel that there was something really advantageous economically in the Irish language as this Housing Act. There has been a certain jealousy even in parishes in Mayo. You have one parish which is Irish-speaking, and another parish in the neighbourhood which is not Irish-speaking. The one has the advantage of the Gaeltacht Housing Act and the other has not.

I think that any co-operation that can be given to the Gaeltacht Housing Department in this respect is very desirable. The inspectors that have gone out have created a very healthy atmosphere abroad for the Irish language. They were very slow, of course, in considering applications and dealing with claims that were sent in and in sanctioning schemes. Even though I do not like them to be too slow in this matter I would prefer them to be a good deal slower than to send around inspectors who spoke nothing but the English language. I would prefer them to wait two or three months until they could send around an inspector who spoke the Irish language. That was the chief delay and although it was a very slow method I think every effort has been made and a healthy atmosphere has been left behind for the Irish language, anyway in the County Mayo in dealing with those schemes for houses.

There is one thing I object to and that is the feeling in the Department that it must take a year or a year and a half to complete the houses in the Gaeltacht, that it must take a long time before this amount can be spent.

Mr. Lynch

The more quickly people are able to build them the better I like it but I am facing the fact that it does take from twelve months to eighteen months.

Mr. Clery

If the Minister will make payment when the houses are completed and if there is no delay in that respect I am quite satisfied.

Mr. Lynch

Surely.

Mr. Clery

Taking the Vote as a whole even though I am satisfied with what has been done with regard to the pushing of Gaeltacht manufactured goods and what has been done in the question of housing I still am going to vote against this Estimate chiefly for this reason that after eight years' experience of being in charge of this Department nothing has been done for the fishing industry which is year after year going into decay. The longer you wait the greater the obstacles you have to contend with. The Department is not now making the necessary effort to bring up lost time. On the question of housing, rural industries and fisheries whatever effort is being made now is an effort that could have been made at least six years ago.

Having the experience of those six years the Minister and his Department and the Fisheries Association should make a better effort than they are now making to bring up lost time, and in order that we might urge them on to that, and in order to make them feel that we realise the difficulties as well as they, and to make them feel that they will have every co-operation we can give when they tackle this question seriously, I am going to vote against this Estimate. I think they are not making the necessary effort. They could do better as a result of their experience if they really had the courage, and in order to make them feel that all of us are behind them, I am going to vote against the Estimate.

Mr. Corish

I think the desire of the Minister for Fisheries to do something for the development of the fisheries of this country is apparent to everybody, but there certainly is not much indication by his colleagues in the Government that they are as anxious as he is to develop inland and deep sea fisheries. The first indication of their desire in that connection would be that they should provide him with more money to enable him to purchase an efficient patrol boat. Everybody in this country, especially people with nautical experience, knows that the operations of the Muirchu are an absolute farce. The vessel is too slow to get out of her own way. When she comes within miles of where the trawlers are it is known all over the coast. I cannot understand the shortsightedness of the Government in this respect. Year after year, I understand, representations have been made by the Minister for Fisheries with the object of procuring an efficient boat. Kilmore, in the County Wexford, loomed very much in the public eye last year by reason of the fact that there was a capture there of a French trawler. The people down there thought that as a result of the action taken by the Government, they would not have any invasion for a considerable time; but, unfortunately, that has not been the case.

The trawlers are in the vicinity of Kilmore Bay at the present moment, with the result that the fishermen down there who are dependent upon lobster-fishing are afraid to put down their lobster pots because the pots have been taken away time after time by these trawlers. That is certainly a very bad state of affairs. There is only a short season for lobster-fishing, and it is very serious for the fishermen if the Government cannot afford the protection which is necessary for them. I hope that the Minister will continue his representations. There should be at least two more patrol boats. I believe that the present patrol boat should be scrapped, because she is absolutely impotent, so far as the protection of fisheries is concerned. I know that the Minister has made representations to the Minister for Finance with a view to securing that better provision would be made for deep-sea fisheries. There is a certain place in Co. Wexford called St. Helen's, adjacent to Carnsore Point, where good fishing was done in the old days. In the past ten or fifteen years the pier there has been allowed to go into disrepair, with the result that the fishermen are unable to land the fish. They have had to abandon fishing practically altogether. Two years ago the Minister visited this particular place, accompanied by members of the Wexford County Council and the local fishermen. He expressed himself as being absolutely satisfied that it was necessary to have that pier attended to, and he agreed immediately to recommend to the Minister for Finance that he should put up portion of the money and that the County Council should put up the remainder in order to have that pier repaired. A few months afterwards the Minister had to confess that even though there was an absolute necessity that something should be done in that particular year the Minister for Finance turned down his proposal. I am certain it is the desire of the Minister to develop fishing ing in this country, but if the Minister for Finance is going to stand in his way to that extent, then the Government are not sincere when they say they are out to develop the industries of the country. Fishing is one of our oldest and best industries, and the sooner the Government realise that the better.

A great deal has been said with regard to inland fisheries. Deputy Clery referred to the fact that a great proportion of our fisheries is controlled by privileged owners, and the Minister made answer to that that the conservators were a body of representative men. I do not agree with that at all. They may be styled as a body of representative men, but the Boards of Conservators all over the country are controlled by owners. The Minister stated that some of the members were representatives of the net men. As far as I know they are a very small proportion. In Wexford County there are only one or two men representing the net men, notwithstanding the fact that there are practically one hundred fishing cots on the river. I ask the Minister is that a fair proportion. I think the sooner that something is done in the way of the suggestion made by Deputy Clery the better for this country. We know quite well what is happening. Certain people control large portions of the rivers of this country. They invite over their friends from England, and they have a sort of fishing festival year after year, but so far as the country generally is concerned they are not deriving the benefit from the fisheries that they are entitled to. The majority of the fisheries are controlled by people who, in my opinion, have no right to them. The farmers of the country control very little of the fisheries, even though their lands are adjacent to the rivers. I believe that if the inland fisheries are to be brought to the state that I would like to see them in they will have to be confiscated by the Government in the interests of the people. I do not see anything wrong about that.

I would also like to add my tribute to what is being said about the Civic Guards. Certainly a great deal has been done by the Gárda in patrolling the rivers and insuring that fish will not be taken during the close season. I believe that more requires to be done. I believe the Fishery Department ought at a particular season of the year to find out whether the rivers acquire spawn or not. Neglect has taken place so far as some of the rivers are concerned, and a great deal requires to be done. During the few years in which there was laxity a good deal of harm was done to the rivers, the effects of which are now being felt. They now require to be looked after in that respect.

To come back to the question of coast patrol I believe that the Minister finds himself in the position that he has not got the full co-operation of his colleagues. I think it is up to the Government to see that proper patrol boats are secured to look after our coast.

Mr. Gorey

On this Estimate every year I take the opportunity to impress on the Minister for Fisheries and the Minister for Justice the advisability of getting the Guards to co-operate in the protection of our rivers. I went so far as to suggest that I thought it was the duty of the Minister for Justice to see that in every barracks there would be at least one Guard who had got a special training in the protection of fishing. That Guard could be transferred to where protection was needed in the close season. I am aware that the Guards are cooperating but I would like to see them co-operate still further. It would be very much more desirable than their activities in visiting creameries to see that asses are shod. Everybody knows that an ass can travel over a tarred road more easily when he is not shod than when he is shod.

Mr. Kilroy

What has that to do with fish?

Mr. Gorey

I am making a comparison and showing how they can be better employed. The Department of Agriculture has done a considerable amount for our live-stock, but we have not paid the same attention to the development of our fisheries as we have to live-stock. We have not the driving force that we should have and that is why I make the suggestion. It is all very well to talk about local associations which were referred to by Deputy Shaw, but there should be somebody at the head as in the agricultural department, some driving force, somebody who would provide the initiative and the necessary information. It will never be done at the rate at which it should be done if it is left to the people in the different localities to form associations and to provide the initiative, the information and the facilities. If we are going to have proper propagation we must have the latest information and we must have hatchery facilities. One expert in our Fishery Department could do all that is necessary.

Anybody who has travelled through the country knows the value of our inland fisheries. Those of us who went through the elections in Leitrim-Sligo and Longford-Westmeath last year know that all the rooms in the hotels were taken up by persons who came from Great Britain and elsewhere to fish here, so that it was almost impossible to get a room in a hotel at the week-end. It has been stated that the tourist traffic is worth about £2,000,000 to this country. I should like to know how much the attraction of fishing here contributes to that and how much it could be made to contribute if it were properly developed. If our rivers were stocked and protected properly not alone would the lake districts of the country benefit more than they do at present, but the districts in which there are rivers and no lakes would also benefit considerably. The work of protecting the fish is much easier on a lake than on a river where there is no lake. A lake is a sanctuary for the fish. You cannot have the indiscriminate netting and groping that Deputy Corry and myself know about in a lake, such as you can have in a small stream. I mention this to show the necessity of protection on the rivers and of having the Civic Guards made experts in that direction. A very considerable monetary return can be got from proper fishery protection and development at very little cost. The results would be enormous in proportion to the outlay. I want the Department of Fisheries to be a real live directing force with regard to the formation of societies, the provision of hatcheries, and several other matters in connection with fishing. I want them to view the matter in the same light as the Department of Agriculture views the live-stock industry.

In the early days of the Free State in 1923 and 1924 the question of fishing rights on the inland rivers was raised. I make a distinction between rights in salmon weirs and what is known as several fisheries and for this reason: The salmon weir rights go back perhaps one thousand years or more and were first held by local monasteries, so that there could be said to be a property in a salmon weir. On the other hand, the several fisheries are a recent development, a development which took place probably within my time, certainly within the last sixty years. It is only in recent times that we heard of the big net across the river. The law allows these people to take three-fourths of the river leaving a gap on one side. I have seen them go out with a boat from one bank with the man holding the net. The boat went over to the other side where there were only six inches of water and was tied to a tree there, and remained there for hours.

Mr. Corry

Were you in the boat?

Mr. Gorey

No, the boat would not have been there if I had my way. That is a new development arising from a practice which prevailed in Scotland at that time. I would not be inclined to regard the rights to a salmon weir in the same light as the alleged rights claimed under the heading of several fisheries. I would go a long way with them if the State proposed to acquire those rights either by purchase or by legislation without purchase.

I am not an authority on sea fisheries, but I should like to make the suggestion that a great deal could be done by fishery associations on the coast, perhaps with the help and direction of an adviser from the Department, in the way of transport for fish. I am speaking as one who lives thirty-five miles from the coast. A good market could be developed for fish in the inland counties, but the fish never reaches these places in a fresh condition. It would be three or four days after the fish are caught before they reach the portion of the country where I live. There are a number of individuals ekeing out an existence at present through hiring out motor cars. That business has come to such a point now that it is overcrowded. I have asked several such persons who were thinking of getting another car or of going into the business in the first instance, why they would not get a one-ton lorry or a thirty cwt. lorry, and go in for dealing in fish as one of the principal parts of their business. Routes could be made out for the different days of the week along which they would deliver fish.

There would be no necessity for a person like that standing in the village selling the fish. He could make arrangements with depots, such as creameries, and pass his fish in hampers on to them. I throw that out as something practical and as something that would be of immense good to the people who catch the fish on the coast and the people who want the fish for consumption in the country. A man could make a journey of 40 to 60 miles from the coast inland and back again, and do that for six days of the week. There is a much better living to be made in that way by a young fellow than with a private car looking for custom. Fresh fish is fish at its best, and we do not get fresh fish in the country. Anyone who knows the quality of mackerel fresh and mackerel stale or herring fresh and herring stale will know that there is considerable possibility for development in the sale of fresh fish. We know that for years and years we are paying at the rate of 2/- and 2/3 a dozen for herrings that are not fresh. A ready market could be had for fresh fish at that price. The price paid for that class of fresh fish at the coast is not more than a few pence a dozen and the margin of profit between that and the price they could be sold in the country is enormous. If we had a proper transport system a better price could be given to those engaged in fishing, and fish could be sold at a much lesser price to customers. I suggest that there is a good deal in this idea, and that much could be done in the way of developing that trade. If we had somebody in the Ministry of Fisheries thinking in that direction and giving as much information on fishing as the Ministry of Agriculture gives to those interested in agriculture, it would mean a considerable addition to the trade of the nation, and would do a considerable amount of good to the people of the country as a general rule.

Mr. Corry

There is an old saying, "set a thief to catch a thief," and I am sure the Dáil will be much edified with the lesson given by the new member from my constituency, Deputy O'Riordan, of Castletownroche, in this matter. I am sure the Dáil will appreciate my meaning, and I suggest to the Minister, in all seriousness, that he should take Deputy O'Riordan into his Department for consultation in this matter. I am sure he will give him a lot of tips as to how to catch poachers, and will enable him to do so. I quite appreciate Deputy O'Riordan's anxiety in getting the Guards trained to catch poachers of fish rather than poachers of hares. The Guards will, I hope, be able to look after the four-legged animals as well as fish.

There is undoubtedly a very serious problem and a problem that I attach blame to the Minister for Fisheries for not tackling. That is the problem of the inland fisheries and the problem of certain fancy rights handed over to somebody or other several hundred years ago, and which are being used to-day to destroy fishing in our rivers and harbours. When speaking of this matter in relation to my own constituency, I have in mind the fisheries of the Duke of Devonshire. These fishery rights were formerly owned by a monastery. They were taken from them by the English Crown and handed over to Sir Walter Raleigh. He in turn when he lost favour with Queen Elizabeth, lost these rights, and they were passed on to the Boyles, and in turn descended to the Duke of Devonshire. Fancy rights like those being brought up in our Irish Courts to prevent Irish fishermen using their right to trawl in the harbour of Youghal. I have seen the thing happen, I have seen the Duke of Devonshire's boats go to the traps and take away hundreds of salmon in their boats to sell them. Then we have a special law as to the size of the meshes of the nets for the ordinary individual, but the Duke of Devonshire's men are allowed to take salmon out of the traps with their hands, and carry them away in boat loads.

I feel very keenly on this because I know that in the town of Youghal there are 250 or 300 fishermen who would be very glad if any one of them could get even one of these salmon per day which would help him in his livelihood. Yet we have the other people taking the salmon under a right given by some of the English sovereigns over Irish waters. In the old days when the Minister for Fisheries and I were in college together in Belfast I admired his feelings in this matter and I am sure he has these feelings still. After all he is now in the position to deal with the Duke of Devonshire and others and what was forfeited once could certainly be forfeited again.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It would require legislation to do all that.

Mr. Corry

I am complaining of what the Minister has not done in his Department.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy can only complain of the Minister's administration of the law as it exists at the moment. He cannot advocate new legislation on this Vote.

Mr. Corry

I am only advocating what he should do.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy will have to find another opportunity for that.

Mr. Corry

I am complaining of lack of action by the Minister in his particular Department and I can assure him that he will have the majority of the House with him if he makes a move in that direction.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy cannot advocate that any further.

Mr. Corry

We had a statement made here about the activities of the Civic Guard in regard to fisheries and it was advocated that the Civic Guards should get more time for the work. I suggest that the Minister for Justice should impress upon the judges of this country the need to inflict proper fines on foreign trawlers and that that would be far more in their line and would have far more effect than fining an unfortunate labourer £10 for poaching a salmon and sending him to gaol for three months if he is not able to pay the fine. We see French trawlers coming here and taking thousands of pounds worth of fish and yet when any one of them is brought before a District Justice for illegal trawling he is simply fined £5. That is a rather strange distinction to be made by the law.

A poor labourer is fined £10 or £7 10s. for poaching salmon while the French trawler can come along and if the owner of it is caught he is only fined £5 although he takes away a boatload of fish. There is a sum of £8,000 in the Estimate for fishery protection. I think if proper fines were imposed on these French trawlers the sums recovered could be applied as Appropriations-in-Aid of the Vote under this heading. In that way a very large portion of this £8,000 could be procured.

Mr. Lynch

Fines imposed in the Court do not come in as Appropriations-in-Aid under the Vote.

Mr. Corry

Well, I think they ought to. Deputy Wolfe complained last night about District Justices being only able to impose fines on the owners of foreign trawlers up to £100. I have never seen an instance where a District Justice imposed a fine of more than £20 on them. As a rule the fines range from £20 to as low as 10s. If private notices can be sent out to the District Justices telling them about the fines they are to impose on people who keep a certain class of bulls I think it would be no harm if another private notice were sent to them telling them that they ought to impose proper fines on the owners of these foreign trawlers. I think the Minister ought to take some definite action in that respect. Deputy Law last night made a statement in connection with that famous boat of ours. I would like to have some information with regard to the gun on that boat. Is it affected in any way by some of the conventions we hear about in connection with the limitation of armaments and the reduction of our Navy? Are there any shells for her? A few years ago Deputy Carney, on a famous occasion, succeeded in proving that there were no shells on board for the gun. If they have not any shells for the gun perhaps the Minister would try and get some.

In view of the condition of the boat and of the position around the coast, I think the Minister should seriously consider scrapping that boat and getting three or four decent ones. They are required to carry out patrol work in a proper way along the coast. If the Minister were to introduce a Bill making provision whereby those foreign trawlers could be fined up to £500 for poaching along the coast, I think I can assure him that he would get it through this House in record time. The fines imposed could be applied to the purpose of providing proper boats to do the work that is there to be done. If the Minister were to introduce a measure of that kind I think he would have the support of members of all Parties.

I welcome the line of advance that the Minister has indicated in connection with our rural industries and the kelp industry. People in portion of my constituency would be glad if he were to send an inspector down to Guileen and to the district along by Ballycotton. Some years ago that was a great kelp producing district. I hope that the Minister will send an inspector down there at once and get work started. I certainly do not grudge the money that has been spent in putting this industry on its feet. I am very glad indeed to see that the sum of £41,000 was realised from the kelp industry this year. There was some small loss sustained, but that, I hope, will gradually be eliminated. I was also glad to hear what the Minister is doing so far as carrigeen moss is concerned. In connection with the rural industries, I notice that £40,000 was spent on the purchase of raw materials, while the receipts from the sale of the products only amounted to £30,000.

Mr. Lynch

I explained in my opening statement that that is to make provision for stocks in our hands on 31st March, and for stuff sold during the financial year but not paid for at that date.

Mr. Corry

At any rate, in connection with these rural industries, I think the Minister is going along the proper lines. There is one other point that I wish to deal with. It is an amazing thing to find that fish to the value of £365,000 is imported here every year. Even though at the first attempt the Minister failed to start a fish market in Cork, I hope he will again turn his attention to that project and see that arrangements are made to have a market established there on proper lines, and that he will see the fish is there this time. By doing so, I feel he should be able to open up a good trade for the sale of fish, not only in Cork, but throughout the country. It is a dreadful loss to the country to have that sum of £365,000 going out year after year for fish. Steps should at once be taken so to organise our fishing industry that it can supply all the requirements of the home market.

I do not agree at all with the comparison that Deputy Gorey made between the Minister for Agriculture and the Minister for Fisheries. I hold that the work of the Minister for Fisheries during the last twelve months, as shown in the Estimate before the House, is far and away better than the results shown by the unfortunate muddling of the Minister for Agriculture. I say that as a farmer and as one who knows what he is talking about. Of course, I am sorry for Deputy Gorey. He has so many different names that it is hard to know which is the right one to use, but he will probably get the correct one in the finish. In my opinion, the Minister for Fisheries has made great advances during the last twelve months. I hope he will continue to advance, and that during the year before us he will take steps to put an end to the disgraceful condition of things that exists at Youghal. The manner in which the unfortunate fishermen there are treated is a scandal. They are prevented from earning a living, and their wives, families and themselves are left to starve, while the boat that has been referred to can be brought up there and a few hundred fish put into it from the trap that is used. If the unfortunate fishermen dare put out a trawler in the harbour at Youghal, they are prosecuted and fined. That is a condition of things that should not be allowed to go on.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy cannot go into that now.

Mr. Corry

I hope that the Minister will bring in legislation to deal with that situation. If he does, I think he will get the support of the members of this House. It is a scandal, and should be stopped.

Mr. White

I desire to congratulate Deputy Corry on the practical speech he has just delivered, and I would suggest to the Department and to the Minister that when they are compiling the Estimates next year they should take the Deputy into consultation, as he threw out some valuable suggestions as to how the fisheries should be handled. I have the same opinion of the fishery cruiser as that expressed by other Deputies. This boat is not capable of doing the work that it is intended to do, and the quicker some change is made for the better protection of the fisheries the better. I see no restriction on the activities of foreign trawlers operating between the Foyle and the Swilly. On a recent Sunday afternoon I saw three trawlers fishing less than 100 yards from the shore, and they got plenty of fish. The cruiser comes round the coast by Sligo. I suggest that in future it should come by the east coast, past Lough Foyle, because I believe these trawlers are always on the look out on the west coast. Deputy Clery referred to money being wasted on teachers under the vocational scheme in the Gaeltacht. I do not know what the Deputy is referring to, but I would suggest that teachers or people with experience should be sent to the Gaeltacht area in my constituency, in order to teach the people how to grow vegetables and how to cook them, as vegetables are a very valuable food. As far as I know, vegetables are not cultivated in the Gaeltacht area of Donegal. I would also suggest that kelp instructors should be sent to Inishowen as soon as possible, because I do not believe that the seaweed is being handled in an up-to-date manner.

Mr. Everett

When he is replying I hope the Minister will give some indication as to when he intends to bring in legislation dealing with the revaluation of the fishing boats. For seven years I have been appealing to the Minister to do so, as in order to make the industry successful these boats must be re-valued. Deputies realise the difficulties with which the new Fisheries Association has to contend and I explained the handicap that was being placed on the Association by the boats being so highly valued. Men will not become members of the Association until they know what their position is. Deputies on all sides have given the Minister every encouragement in the organisation of the Association, and they all wish it success. I have stated inside and outside the House, that things cannot be worse than they have been up to the present. I only hope that as a result of the bouquets that have been thrown at the Minister there will not be a go slow policy this year. I want him to speed up his Department, and to press the Department of Finance, or whatever Department is responsible, so as to have the promises made to the fishermen carried out. I can assure the Minister that if he brings in legislation to have the boats re-valued the Association will be a success. The boats must not only be re-valued but they must be re-conditioned. A number of boats are lying idle in various ports, and if they were re-conditioned the men will get the fish. In my constituency we have classes at the technical schools for the instruction of boys as ships' cooks, and for work on boats. The Minister's representative knows that good work is being done in that way. We want to keep these boys at home by giving them employment, so that they will not have to emigrate to America, and so that fishing will not be confined to old men. We want to give the Minister every help in the development of the fishing industry, but unless he takes his courage in his hands and introduces the legislation that I have referred to, he will not have any bouquets thrown at him next year, because the Association will not be the success that we all hope it will be.

Mr. Carey

As an indication of the earnestness of the Minister, I should mention that he has sent down an inspector to inquire into certain projects on the sea-board dealing with the kelp industry. I wish that he would go further and would send down an inspector to instruct the people in the burning of kelp. We do not expect that the kelp industry will be a great success this year on our sea-board, but we hope to do much better in future. The people are anxious that an instructor would be sent down to direct them in the right methods. We are very much interested in the work of the Fisheries Association. The fishermen in Ballycotton area do not owe any money to the Department of Fisheries. They cleared off their debts. One or two boats are required there. Perhaps the Minister would have some boats in stock that would be suitable for fishing, if they were repaired. Several applications have been made in Cork county under the Gaeltacht Housing Act. I asked the Minister to send down an engineer to inquire into the applications dealing with the reconstruction of dwelling houses as the valuations are within the Act. This work should be done before the winter. The people are anxious to know if the money will be advanced in the near future, because otherwise the work will have to be done by themselves, by the county councils or by the Board of Works. They would like to know at once if their applications will be granted or rejected. I am very anxious that at least one boat should be sent there, because the people are willing to give every guarantee that the Fisheries Association requires. In Ratheoursey the fishermen devote nearly all their time to the fishing industry, and it is a pity that they have not all the facilities they require in order to make a living out of it. I asked the Minister some time ago to erect a slip in the vicinity. An inspector was sent down, and he reported that there was a pier at Rathcoursey, within one and a half miles of the site suggested. That is so, but as the fishermen had to leave their boats there, it means that they have to walk one and a half miles to their homes.

We do not want an elaborate pier but we want a slip to which we could hitch the boats every night. At present the boats are anchored and in the morning the men have to go through the mud to board them. If an engineer came down he could interview the fishermen on a Saturday morning, because they are out fishing every other day of the week, and they could put their case before him. He would then see what they required. You will find that if that is done there will be a settlement in regard to the slip and boats. I would also ask the Minister to consider the question of establishing the kelp industry there. I have been speaking to some old people who live along the sea coast and they told me that the industry was formerly carried on there. Some of them have an idea as to how it is carried on but their methods in those days were probably rough and ready. They could quite easily be instructed in the new methods and I would ask the Minister to send an instructor there as soon as possible.

Mr. Moore

There seems to be some mystery about the Minister's intentions in regard to the Bill for the re-valuation of loans. One would think from his attitude that it was a contentious measure but really the Committee Stage should be a simple affair. He has promised to try and get it a Second Reading before the end of the session. If he thinks that it would be practicable to get it through Second Reading why should it not be practicable to pass it through the House during the present session?

Mr. Lynch

If I could, I would be all the more pleased. The reason that I said that I hoped to get it a Second Reading was owing to the difficulties of the Parliamentary Draughtsman. It will be a short Bill, nearly all schedules, and it is a question as to whether the Parliamentary Draughtsman will have it ready in time and also how long the House will sit.

Mr. Moore

I take it that the draughtsman would have finished with it before Second Reading.

Mr. Lynch

Yes; we may be able to get it through all its stages, if there is agreement.

Mr. Moore

I hope that the Minister will be able to do that. As he himself has admitted, and as Deputy Jasper Wolfe and other Deputies admitted, that is the biggest incubus there is on the fishing industry. There can be no real development or progress until the problem is out of the way. I think that the new Association would feel that their work would be a lot easier, and that their task was much lighter if that problem were solved definitely for all time. I can assure the Minister that if he can manage to get the Bill introduced, so far as we can facilitate him in getting it through the House, we will gladly do so. We are eager that the hopes which he held out in regard to the Association will be fulfilled. We are glad to see that the Minister was optimistic in regard to capturing the home market for our fish, and that he was hopeful generally in regard to the success of the Association. Nobody will be more pleased than we if these hopes are fulfilled, and fulfilled quickly. There is one question in regard to inland fisheries which I would like to ask the Minister. I cannot trace in the Estimate any provision for a scientific worker. I understand that there is a rather able scientist in the Department, but that he is largely occupied in administrative work, and gets practically no opportunity to do research work.

In view of what has been said about the importance of increasing the number of hatcheries, it looks as if there is a good deal of genuine scientific work which could be done by that official. I would like if the Minister would say whether it is correct that a great deal of his time is taken up with mere administrative work, and that he gets very little opportunity for doing any research work. I understand from people who have gone into the matter very fully that our salmon fisheries could be improved to the extent that they would be worth at least £1,000,000 a year to the country, but that one of the essential things required is a staff of scientists. In Scotland there are at least ten or twelve scientists engaged in research work in connection with the salmon fisheries there. It would look like neglect on the part of the Minister if there is that possibility before our fisheries, that he should do nothing to improve the position in that direction. I am not speaking with any personal knowledge, but I am only relating what I have heard from people who are very interested in salmon fisheries, and who have great belief in their future.

Dr. Tubridy

This Vote is for fisheries and Gaeltacht services. Some years ago when the Minister was appointed in charge of the Gaeltacht it was understood that he would have control of all Gaeltacht areas, that there would be co-ordination between all Government services in the area under his control, and that periodically the heads of the departments would confer and discuss the operations of these departments in the Gaeltacht. I understood at the time that they would confer under the chairmanship of the Minister. This Vote has been discussed mostly on the grounds that it is altogether a Vote for fisheries. All points have been dealt with as regards the kelp and carrigeen industries, fishing, and matters of that sort relating to the sea, but as a Vote for purely Gaeltacht services it has not been dealt with from that point of view. As the Minister knows, there is a large population of Irish speakers who live inland and who have nothing to do with the fisheries nor with kelp or carrigeen. I take Irish-speaking areas like Headford, Clonbur, Leenane, and all that area where Irish is spoken in every house and I can say that although the Minister's Department is responsible for the welfare of the people in that area, in so far as any Minister can be responsible, I am disappointed that it is not touched in this Estimate. With the exception of an industry which the Ministry proposes to start in Tourmakeady nothing has been done for other inland portions of the Gaeltacht. I can see that the Minister is going to do his best for the carrigeen and kelp industries, and I do not want to minimise the value of his efforts to people dealing in carrigeen and kelp, but I am sure that the Minister knows that only about one family in every two hundred in the Gaeltacht can make kelp or deal in carrigeen.

I put that as a rough estimate. I do not know what the Minister's estimate would be. He probably would have figures in connection with that subject and he could tell us how many families by reason of their nearness to the sea and the type of weed that is required, in West Galway, would be able to take part in this business; how many are at present engaged in it, and how many can take part in it when all the money is expended and the industry is developed. The same applies to carrigeen. In the island which I know best, the people are most interested in carrigeen, but I am sure that in that island fully one-half of the people would not be able to take part in the carrigeen industry, because they do not live in that portion of the island where the carrigeen can be gathered. I would like to ask the Minister what is his policy, or has he thought of any policy with regard to other areas, or areas which are not seashore areas. We all remember that when the Gaeltacht report was published we expected great things for the entire Gaeltacht. The President even quoted Scripture in regard to it, and said that he found it beaten and laid on the roadside, and that he intended to put a Minister in charge of the Gaeltacht, to improve the lot of the people, particularly in Donegal, and in the South and West of Ireland. Now, surely the Minister cannot say that the only thing that can be done for the Gaeltacht is to develop the carrigeen and the kelp industry? As I said before, these industries will mean a lot for the people who are engaged in them, but for one family who can take part in them, there will be two hundred others who cannot.

In that connection I am surprised that when the Minister presided over the meetings of heads of Departments, he did not impress upon them to give appointments in the Gaeltacht to people who know Irish, and to no others. It is very difficult to impress upon the people in the Gaeltacht that Irish is going to be the language of the country, that it would be a benefit and an economic advantage to them to know Irish, when they see appointments made in the Gaeltacht, and that they themselves are considered ineligible for most of these appointments.

This has been done particularly by this Department, the Gaeltacht Services Department. I referred here before to appointments made by the Minister. I think it is a shame, and I repeat it, that when a buyer of kelp is appointed in the West of Ireland, in the Gaeltacht, in an island like Gorumna where the people are all Irish speakers, to appoint the only man available who had no Irish. When I asked for an explanation of that before I did not get it. I would like if it would be possible for the Minister to let me know why he could not find an Irish speaker in Gorumna island to buy kelp from the people and why he had to go to the midlands for a man to fill the appointment.

Deputy Sheehy stated here yesterday that as a result of the battering the Minister received from these benches, he has at last opened up and is going to start to develop the Gaeltacht. In that connection I am very pleased to see that there is a sum of about £20,000, part of which is to go to an industry that we have been asking the Minister to develop for some time—that is the lobster and the shell fishing business. I pointed out four or five years ago that we made an experiment there and we proved that it was an industry that would give employment. We asked him to establish this lobster fishing industry. I am very glad he has seen his way to ask for money to do so. We have also now got a promise that the arrears of loans will be wiped out. Unfortunately the fishermen of the West of Ireland are in the position that this promise in reference to wiping out the arrears of loans is of long duration. We would like to see as soon as possible the Bill which the Minister has promised brought in. When the Minister was dealing with the fishing industry he made an unfortunate observation when he said that the disease was diagnosed in the fishing industry because to all appearances the disease has been diagnosed post mortem. It is easy to diagnose a condition post mortem, to dissect the body and find out what is the cause of death. It may be very interesting as an academic discussion but it is of very little benefit to the people concerned. If it took eight years for the Minister to kill the industry, it is no great advantage now for the Minister to say that the disease has been diagnosed.

With regard to the question of trawlers, time and again that matter has been brought up here, and we did not get any satisfaction from the Minister as a result of our complaints. About four years ago I mentioned that in Iceland when foreign trawlers are caught the fines are severe and the ship and the gear are confiscated. The ship is released when the fines are paid, but the gear is kept. If a trawler is found within the limit, and if its gear is available, if it is not under lock, a fine of £100 is imposed as a minimum and the gear is confiscated. As the Minister knows, the gear is much more valuable than £100. What has happened in the Free State when these people are being caught? They have been let off with very nominal fines. As Deputies from these benches have stated, if a man is caught fishing for salmon, if he is caught poaching, he is sent to jail for a month or he is fined £10 or £15, but if one of the foreign trawlers is caught fishing within the limit it is allowed off with a small fine of £20 or £25.

Mr. Lynch

I do not think there has been any case in which the fine was so low. In case a foreign trawler is brought before the court, there is a minimum penalty here, and that minimum penalty is £100. The gear is also confiscated in most cases. I do not think that in any case there has been a fine as low as £20. I am not now referring to the French lobster boats. Many Deputies have been confusing the lobster boats with the trawlers. The minimum fine in the case of a trawler is £100, and there may be confiscation of the gear. The fine in the case of lobster boats is only £10. Some Deputies are confusing the two.

Dr. Tubridy

That may be so. It was stated in the Press that the fine was small. I heard it stated in Cleggan that the fines were of that amount. I was not aware that any difference existed between the fines for trawlers and the fines for lobster boats. According to the local Press and the daily Press it would appear that a lot of people only paid fines of £25. I have not the actual dates with me, but I remember on several occasions reading it in the papers; that would be about two years ago.

On other occasions I had complaints to make here about the mismanagement of the money given to assist the kelp industry. The Minister at that time did not say that there would be any improvement in the management of such a vast sum of money. Cumann na nGaedheal Deputies replied on behalf of the Minister. There are people who are allowed to go around the West of Ireland and appoint managers and agents and act more or less as Government officials until they just begin to think that they are acting as Minister for Fisheries in connection with Gaeltacht services. I am sure any one of them thinks he is the shadow Minister. I would advise the Minister to watch his position very carefully. When I ask the Minister a question I expect the Minister to answer; I do not expect any back-bencher to explain the case. It is the Minister's job to explain and give reasons if he thinks my complaints are justified. No shadow Minister on the opposite side should take it upon himself to reply for the Minister. In view of my interest in the Minister and my desire to see him keeping his position, I would not like to see him supplanted or suppressed. I hope the Minister will refer to the kelp business.

I have an objection to the appointment of local agents, and anybody living in the West will have the same objection. The local agents are really gombeen men and anyone living in the West knows what a gombeen man is. When you appoint a gombeen man to look after the kelp industry you are placing the people tight in the grip of that gombeen man. He has his hold on the kelp industry in such a way that the people cannot get away from him.

Mr. Lynch

No. The kelp maker has to be paid in cash on our cheque and not by the gombeen man.

Dr. Tubridy

When I spoke about that before the Minister said that we had the Truck Act. The gombeen man could even get away under the Truck Act. If the Minister knew those men in the West he would realise that they would get away with anything. The Minister should put an end to this state of affairs. The people appointed as inspectors should be well able to do the duty now being done by the agents. There is a sum of £1,936 paid by way of salary and expenses to kelp instructors. Why could not those men buy the kelp and hand the people the cheques? You have a sum of £2,000 going to agents, and there is another £2,000 also going in store money for the West of Ireland. All the money that went to the West, whether it was by way of the "Irish Independent" charity or any other fund, was grabbed by those people. How they did it is another matter. They are doing the same with this money.

[An Ceann Comhairle took the Chair.]

The slips built around Christmas-time were paid for, and the money was paid into the shops and the prices of articles were put up on the people. Nobody would get employment there unless he was dealing in a particular shop. A man came to me and complained that he could not get the 24/- or the 25/- owed to him for work done because it was kept for a pair of boots he bought. Why cannot the Minister get his own officials to do the work, and not appoint agents?

Mr. Lynch

Did the Deputy ever go to the trouble to send me a particular case of that kind? That is the proper course he should adopt. If a case of that kind were submitted to me, I would have it investigated immediately, and I would soon put an end to that procedure.

Mr. Mongan

Hear, hear!

Dr. Tubridy

I notice that the "Hear, hear," comes from the Deputy from Connemara, who is friendly with the gombeen men. Anybody who knows the West knows that anybody who is in the books of a gombeen man will not give evidence in such a case as that.

Mr. Lynch

Will the Deputy give me the particulars he stated a few moments ago?

Dr. Tubridy

Does the Minister think that any man who is in the books of a gombeen man will tell that publicly?

Mr. Lynch

The Deputy made a statement that a certain person was not paid 24s. or 25s. for his work because he owed for a pair of boots; that the shopkeeper was setting that against the other. Will the Deputy supply me with that information, because if he does, I will have it soon remedied?

Dr. Tubridy

If the individual allows me I will, but I am afraid that people in the grip of a gombeen man cannot do it. Anybody who knows the West knows that. In this particular area of which I speak, the only man appointed there to buy the kelp in that particular island is a man who has not one solitary word of Irish. He has been only a year there, and he never made kelp in his life. Why could they not get in Aran Island some person except the one man who does not know Irish? It is all very well for a back-bencher to reply to those things. If the Minister found out these things, I am sure he would not like to have them happen. I do not think he would.

The same thing applies to the carrigeen business. There is £500 down on the Estimate for agents for carrigeen. I want to ask the Minister can anybody buy carrigeen from the people who pick it or are agents to be appointed, and must everybody who picks carrigeen go to a certain man? I would like the Minister to know that there are complaints about this being run by locals. Local shopkeepers employ nobody except people on their books. They raise the price of the groceries, bacon, and other things when employment is being given. When these complaints are made it is my duty to mention them to the Minister, and I would be lacking in my duty if I did not mention them here, and the Minister, instead of blaming me for doing so, should see whether in actual fact they are practised. It is all very well to say that cheques are sent down to the Gaeltacht for these things.

I am delighted that this matter is being taken up in the Gaeltacht, and that the people are helped in this matter of the kelp, but what I do object to is that the people are still kept in serfdom and slavery by the gombeen men. It is done by Government money. I think it is time that that attitude of mind should be got rid of. We have reached the stage now when we are not satisfied that local agents should be appointed, and we dislike all that little bickering and political business and local trade jealousies interfering with the kelp trade in this way. This should be made a business above that. I want the Minister to send down an official to look into it, and not an official who will stay in the local gombeen man's house. If he does that it will be no good at all. We want independent officials, men who will go round with nobody, whether political big wigs or not. Let the official go round and find out how things are done. We do not want the official to go round with the personating agent of the Cumann na nGaedheal T.D. or with the Cumann na nGaedheal T.D. himself. I would like the officials to go round and see whether these charges are correct. I would like to see the report that such an official would send back to the Minister, if the official does his duty properly.

As regards housing, the Minister mentioned that there was a very big sum sanctioned. That does not mean that it has been paid. I have had complaints from numbers of people who have built houses and they say they have not yet been paid. How many people who have built houses under the scheme have been paid? A certain sum was mentioned as being sanctioned. It was granted a long time ago but sanction is a different thing. I know a man in the village of Carraroe who built a house. It is up for the last four months. The man who bought the roof for the house asked me would it be possible to get the money. He supplied the timber and slates and other materials and he has not been paid yet. The fact that the money has been sanctioned does not indicate that it has actually been paid. There is a total of £10,431 this year for the cost of inspection of Gaeltacht housing. In comparison with the total expenditure on housing of £80,000, the amount for inspection is too big.

I have no complaint to find with the housing surveyors. I found them very reasonable men. They are doing whatever work they are supposed to do. On the other hand, I think there are too many inspections being made. There should be more freedom and liberality as to how a house should be built. The builders are tied down to certain plans. I do not mind that, but let us take it that a man starts to build a house and the inspector approves of it. I say that that man should then be left alone to build the house in his own way and he should afterwards be paid. Instead of that you have at the moment a ganger coming down and declaring that the porch should be on the other side. Afterwards you have the engineer telling the man he should build another room and then another inspector comes along and says that the house is three feet too short. I have seen people being put off in that way.

Mr. Brodrick

Then the doctor comes along in the course of a few years and condemns the house.

Dr. Tubridy

If a doctor had to condemn all the houses that are unfit for habitation in Connemara, he would have a lot of condemning to do.

Mr. Mongan

And he would charge them £5 under the new scale.

Dr. Tubridy

I would like to know what the Deputy has said. The Deputy has plenty of opportunity of speaking and perhaps he will allow me to speak now. I do not interrupt him when he is speaking. It is rather absurd to pay Gaelic domestic instructresses to teach the people how to cook when they have very little to cook. The diet in the Gaeltacht is a very restricted one. There are not many vegetables grown there and meat is very rarely used. The principal diet is bread, tea and potatoes.

Mr. Anthony

What about boiling down a gombeen man, whether he speak English or Irish?

Dr. Tubridy

I hope the Minister will speed up the grants for houses already erected. When a house is on a suitable site and the foundations are laid, the people should be allowed to go on with the work as quickly as possible. The statement about a difficulty in finding skilled labour is not correct, as far as my area is concerned. Most of the people who build these houses are fairly skilled in the art of building and they can give a lot of assistance. I did not find myself in any area where there was a shortage of skilled workmen. There is no reason why the people who applied for houses should not be told to go on with the work.

There is a sum mentioned here for teachers' residences. I would like a little more information as to how teachers' residences are to be built and who is to own them. It would be very useful for the Minister to know how he will stand as regards these houses when they are erected. He ought to ascertain what rights he will have in them and whether they will belong to the State, the manager or the teacher. I know that teachers' residences are required in a big number of places and suitable houses would probably induce teachers to remain there who would otherwise be inclined to leave the Gaeltacht. This is one of the things I am thankful to the Minister for doing.

What will be the relationship between landlord and tenant, and what will the position be with reference to eviction? At the moment, the position with regard to teachers' residences is not very satisfactory. I know teachers' residences in some places that are not being inhabited; the windows and doors are broken, and they are being allowed to go to ruin. I would not like to see anything like that happening in the case of the new houses.

On the question of the inland fisheries, the Minister has control over a big number of small lakes all over the West of Ireland. It is difficult to find out whether he lets these lakes annually in connection with the sporting rights. I have seen a State Book issued giving lists of rivers and lakes for fishing purposes. The sporting rights are available through the Minister's Department. I do not know whether these lakes are taken every year. I know some lakes that are not. The reason is that the fish in the small lakes are generally brown trout, and within the last few years, a lot of poaching went on, and the fish left behind are very small. Quarter pound trout are the highest to be had, and nobody is anxious to rent a fishery that would produce trout of that character. Perhaps the Minister would expend some money in order to get the Boards of Conservators to take an interest in the smaller lakes. I am sure a good rental could be secured for them. These Boards of Conservators do a lot of good, and they take an interest in the salmon and sea-trout fishing. The small lakes are left neglected. They are not owned by anybody. The people think they belong to the Land Commission or the Fisheries Department, and they do not know whether they have a right to fish them. I was very glad Deputy Corry brought forward cases from the south emphasising the necessity for considering our attitude in regard to this important matter. I move to report progress.

Progress reported.

The Dáil adjourned at 2 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 10th June.