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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 24 Jun 1931

Vol. 39 No. 7

In Committee on Finance. - Vote No. 4—Comptroller and Auditor-General.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £12,111 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1932, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Ard-Scrúdóra (Uimh. 1 de 1923) maraon le hOifig Iniúchóireachta an Aráchais Náisiúnta.

That a sum not exceeding £12,111 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1932, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor-General (No. 1 of 1923), including the National Insurance Audit Office.

Would the Minister tell the House how the sub-head C.C.—Repayment to the British Government on cost of audit, Royal Irish Constabulary pensions, Civil Superannuation, etc., amounting to £575, arises?

For a number of years a sum of £600 has been provided for this purpose. The reason for the expenditure on the agency service at the British Audit Office is that the payment of the Royal Irish Constabulary pensions and civil superannuation by the British Government is in a sense agency service because ultimately the cost falls on us. The payment of the pensions is made by the British Paymaster-General in the first instance and repayment is made by the Saorstát Government of seventy-five per cent. of the Royal Irish Constabulary, and seventy-one and a half per cent. of the civil pensions. The payment in respect of civil pensions is on a provisional basis without prejudice to subsequent adjustment.

The generally accepted principle as between the British Government and the Saorstát Government is that each shall accept the Comptroller and Auditor-General's certificate. We have expressly reserved the right to audit the payments made in respect of pensions and full facilities for enabling this to be done will be placed at our disposal by the British Government. As a matter of fact audits of the Royal Irish Constabulary pensions and civil pensions were carried out in 1930 by our Comptroller and Auditor-General.

I do not know that what I am going to say properly arises on this Vote. It has reference to an item in Vote 16 in respect of ordinary pensions and disbandment pensions to R.I.C. men of £1,152,000.

That would arise on Vote 16.

In relation to the audit work, one of the points that I would like to raise is as to how this £1,152,000 is paid over to the British. I do not want to misstate the position, but I think it is the case that the British Paymaster-General requisitions this sum in the first instance. If that is the position then I think it is a rather extraordinary thing that the party to this transaction who makes the requisition in the first instance and who spends the money should also audit the expenditure. It would seem to me that that affords very little protection to the people of this State. I think that £575 is very ill-spent money. It really affords us no protection. I say, at any rate, that in an ordinary commercial transaction no person would dream of permitting a man who requisitions money in the first instance and expends it in the second to audit it in the third. There does not seem to be any real check throughout the whole of that system. I am glad to learn that last year there was actually an audit of these pensions carried out by independent Irish auditors who are responsible to this House. I hope that the audit was satisfactory. I do not think, in view of the fact that we have the right to audit these accounts and in view of the fact that, in my opinion, an audit by the British Government gives no real protection, we would be justified in spending this £575. The Minister has made the case that in relation to sums disbursed in this country by his Department on behalf of the British Government they accept the certificate of our Comptroller and Auditor-General, but there is no comparison between the two sums. We do not spend £1,000,000 for the British Government in this country. I do not believe that we disburse anything with the exception of the amount that is voted for war graves under Miscellaneous Services. The only person who can audit these accounts on behalf of the Free State is the Comptroller and Auditor-General appointed by this House and responsible to this House. To justify the unaudited expenditure of £1,150,000 of the people's money—and that is what it amounts to—by saying that we disburse a comparatively trivial sum of something like £10,000 and that the British accept the certificate of our Comptroller and Auditor-General is, to my mind, no justification for the procedure that has grown up in regard to this matter. We are entirely suspicious of the whole way in which these R.I.C. pensions are disbursed. It seems to be a most extraordinary position that the Government have taken up in the matter. I could understand if they were to come here and say, "We feel that we are under no obligation in this matter——

Surely that does not arise on this Vote?

It does not except that the two things are intermixed.

The Deputy can deal with that later on.

The fact that this money is handed over to the British Government to distribute and that we accept the certificate of the British Government auditors for its proper expenditure is, as I say, extraordinary. We have absolutely no control over that expenditure. The money may be used, as far as this State is concerned, by the British Government to subsidise a secret service organisation in this country, to build up a body of opinion in this country in favour of the British Government or to provide a striking force, if necessary, in case the British should come back, as the Minister, every time he gets on a political platform, tells us they are going to come back if Fianna Fáil gets into power. The whole circumstances in connection with the matter are so extraordinary and so unjustifiable that I really think we shall have to divide the House, if necessary, on the question of this expenditure.

I think the Deputy has come to the point and I do not think I need say any more. The suggestion that the Comptroller and Auditor-General in Great Britain is going to be a party to some sort of indefinite embezzlement of money is, to my mind, entirely absurd. For all ordinary purposes we may be perfectly satisfied with the audit of the British Comptroller and Auditor-General. However, in case there might be some point of principle in which their viewpoint would be different from ours, it is fair enough to have an occasional check audit, but so far as the expenditure of the money in accordance with law and regulation goes we may be sure that the check of the British Comptroller and Auditor-General is as good as any check that we can impose.

Vote put and agreed to.
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