Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 26 Jun 1931

Vol. 39 No. 9

General Act for the Settlement of International Disputes.

I move: "That the Dáil approves of the General Act for the Pacific Settlement of International Disputes, annexed to the Resolution adopted by the Assembly of the League of Nations on the 26th day of September, 1928, a copy of which General Act was laid on the Table of the Dáil on the 18th day of June, 1931, and recommends the Executive Council to take the necessary steps to accede to the said General Act."

I bring this motion before the House with a view to having ratification or accession made to the Act to which reference is made, hoping that in doing this we may take another step along the rather difficult and rather tortuous way that leads to the settlement of disputes by means other than war-like ones. I think it would be well to link this up with the measures which have gone before it, and to indicate what are the obligations that we have accepted as members of the community of nations with regard to the settlement of disputes by other than warlike means, and by that means to point out what is the necessity or the advisability in having a measure of this type accepted. We have incurred obligations with regard to the pacific settlement of disputes in a variety of ways, under the Covenant of the League of Nations, the Kellogg Pact, the Optional Clause with regard to the Permanent Court of International Justice, and in a variety of Treaties which have specific clauses attached to them from time to time.

Under Article 12 of the Covenant, States are bound to bring forward either for judicial settlement, arbitration or inquiry by the Council, all disputes which seem likely to lead to a breach of the peace, anything which seems likely to provoke war. Under, I think, Section 13 of the Covenant, States are also bound to submit to either judicial settlement or arbitration such disputes as they think are suitable for submission in either of these two ways. If they do not feel that a certain dispute is one which is proper for submission either to judicial settlement or to arbitration, then they are bound to bring it before the Council for inquiry. These two obligations under the Covenant are imperfect obligations, first because they are subject to test by the Nations implicated as to whether or not a particular event is likely to provoke war, and on that, of course, argument might proceed. While the argument was proceeding the event which it was sought to prevent might have taken place. The second method of submission to judicial settlement and arbitration is also imperfect, because it, again, depends on the view of the Nations concerned, whether they consider the item suitable for submission in these ways. If they do not so consider it suitable, then that particular type of pacific settlement has broken down.

I said already that under a different Article of the Covenant disputes which the Nations do not consider to be suitable for disposal in this way must be brought before the Council. But imperfection arises in that matter in this way, that on inquiry by the Council, if the Council are unanimous, then a particular result flows, but if the Council are not unanimous the whole scheme of pacific settlement has again broken down. To meet these gaps, and in an endeavour to get the Nations to face up more resolutely to the idea of peaceful means of persuasion, the Kellogg Pact, first spoken of by M. Briand, was brought forward. Under it the Nations, of which we are one, bound themselves to renounce war as an instrument of national policy in regard to disputes. They bound themselves not to resort to other than pacific means for the settlement of disputes. That again, although not so imperfect, because there are no subjective tests which have to be applied, is imperfect in the method of machinery. No machinery was laid down and no procedure was arranged as to how certain disputes might be brought forward.

As I said, in addition to the Covenant of the League and its various clauses, and the Kellogg Pact, we have become signatories from time to time, to various conventions and treaties. Most of the conventions and Treaties concluded at this time have in them a clause allowing for some method of pacific settlement, generally a reference to an arbitral tribunal to be determined ad hoc. We have signed some five or six treaties or con ventions which have a clause of that type in them. In all these Treaties there is the same scheme with regard to pacific settlement. Last year we ratified the Optional Clause. Progress has been made since I spoke in February, 1930. I said then that twenty countries were signing and ratifying the Optional Clause, that twenty had signed, but had not taken the further step of ratification. At the moment the position is that 36 countries have adopted, signed and ratified; 10 have signed but have not yet ratified.

The group with which we are allied in connection with the Optional Clause has grown, to a certain extent, in the last twelve months. The Optional Clause deals with legal disputes, legal disputes having reference to interpretation of the Treaty on any question of international law, the existence of any fact which, if established, would constitute a breach of international obligations, and the nature or extent of the reparation to be made for a breach of international obligation. We signed that, of course, without condition for a period of twenty years, simply demanding reciprocity. In relation to any Nations which have also accepted the Optional Clause, if there is any dispute with regard to a legal matter of the type to which I have referred, then we, and they also, are bound to a reference to the Permanent Court of International Justice. Not so much the flaw as the limitation in this case is, that this applies only to legal disputes, and so the General Act was drawn up.

The General Act really applies to all classes of disputes, whether legal or those that could not be brought within the category of legal disputes. It sets out, in four chapters, certain procedure and certain schemes for pacific settlement. Chapter 4 is rather general with regard to procedure. The main chapters are those dealing with conciliation, judicial settlement and arbitration: The scheme under the General Act is that non-legal disputes must go, in the first instance, in relation to people who accept this General Act, to a Conciliation Commission. If they are not then resolved by that Conciliation Commission they must go forward to an arbitral tribunal.

Legal disputes will go to some court to seek some method of judicial settlement, unless prior to a particular date the parties have agreed to submit the dispute to an arbitral tribunal. The difference as between conciliation procedure and the procedure of judicial settlement or arbitration is, of course, that in conciliation a group of commissioners, five in number, get the parties to come together. They get the facts before them, and try to elicit further facts. They will try to get in any arguments that can be adduced with regard to pacific settlement, and endeavour to bring the parties together to arrange a settlement. There is this flaw, that if a settlement cannot be reached, then there is simply a report to that effect, that conciliation has failed. But under the General Act, if conciliation does fail, the matter goes forward to arbitration. The difference between conciliation and arbitration, or judicial settlement, really is that under the one procedure there is no final and binding decision given by anybody. In the case of either arbitration or judicial settlement a decision final and binding on the parties is given.

Chapter I. deals with conciliation. It lays down rather exact procedure in detail, and seems to have blocked any gap that there might be with regard to non-agreement between the parties or as to matters brought forward to the Conciliation Board. Chapter 2 deals with judicial settlement and the procedure to be followed in the case of legal disputes. Chapter 3 deals with arbitration. In accordance with Article 38 accession to the present General Act may be applied completely or may be limited in a way which is precisely defined. Accession may extend either to all the provisions in the Act, to the 4 chapters, or else to those provisions only which relate to conciliation and judicial settlement, or to conciliation only. We propose, first, to accede under (A) of Article 38 to all the provisions of the Act. If we acceded to (C) procedure, which relates only to conciliation and the general provisions concerning that procedure of conciliation, we have then established a particular type of conciliation machinery. We know the precise details of the conciliation Board, who are to be the Commissioners, and so on, if disputes are to be settled in that way, but if we leave it at that, and accede only in relation to Chapters 1 and 4, and if the Conciliation Board fails to get people together and to come to agreement, then we are thrown back again on the somewhat imperfect obligations under the Kellogg Pact, or under the Covenant of the League.

Accession, therefore, to Chapter I, conciliation or to Chapter 4, general procedure, would not seem to bring us very much further. It does not seem to me that the House will have very much difficulty in accepting the somewhat wider scheme than merely accession to a single chapter, with regard to conciliation, because the House has already taken the decision that it would accept in legal matters as final and binding the decision of the Permanent Court of International Justice. There seems to be no reason why, having taken that step with regard to legal disputes, the House should not also be ready to submit either to an arbitration tribunal, or to some method of judicial settlement, disputes which are of a non-legal character. I leave out (B) as a matter not to be considered seriously at all. It allows you to accede to Chapters 1 and 2 which we have already accepted under the Optional Clause agreement except that there is this difference, that on the Optional Clause the matter was precisely stated to refer only to legal disputes of the type mentioned, whereas legal judicial settlement under the General Act would be in relation to disputes where the parties are in conflict as to their respective rights. It is understood from the second paragraph that the disputes referred to include those mentioned in Article 36 of the Permanent Court. While it is still related to legal disputes it does go somewhat wider than those mentioned in Article 36 of the Statute for the Permanent Court. It seems better that we should have the whole procedure with regard to both judicial settlement and arbitration as well as conciliation. Having accepted, or put ourselves in the position that we may accept, the decision of the Permanent Court in regard to legal disputes, there seems to be no reason why we should stop short at this, and refrain from having disputes, whether of the legal type or non-legal type, also submitted, in default of conciliation, to either the process of judicial settlement or arbitration.

At many meetings of the Assembly recently when this Act was being discussed we announced that we were in favour of an all-round pacific policy and to limit our accession to any one of the chapters and not accept the Act as a whole would be somewhat in contrariety to what has been said at the League on many occasions by Irish representatives. The whole Act has, so far, been accepted by a number of States: France, Great Britain, Spain, Luxembourg, Belgium and Finland. Norway and Denmark accepted it with some limitations. It has been accepted, with regard to certain parts of Chapters 1, 2 and 3 by Holland and Sweden. Italy has announced its intention to accept the whole Act. Article 39 deals with reservations. The things which are kept alive under the provisions of the General Act are dealt with in this Article. The general principle with regard to these international Conventions is that unless specifically declared the newer one is not in derogation of anything accepted under a previous one, but is in addition to any obligation previously incurred. All that is specifically set out in Article 29, which keeps alive the special procedure laid down in other Conventions in force between the parties.

Paragraph 2 of Article 29 states that "the present General Act shall not affect any agreements in force by which conciliation procedure is established between the parties or they are bound by obligation to resort to arbitration or judicial settlement which ensure the settlement of the dispute." For instance, if there is a conflict at all as to the generality and wide scope of those in opposition to the Optional Clause, to the group of legal matters, to the Kellogg Pact or the Covenant, the generality of the others would overcome any limitation that is in this although set out to be as general and wide as possible. Article 29 specifically keeps alive any Conventions in force between the parties and sets out a special procedure for settling disputes. It is provided where those Conventions are in force that disputes shall be settled in conformity with the provisions of these Conventions. It refers specifically to the agreement by which conciliation procedure is established or an agreement under which the parties were bound to resort either to arbitration or judicial settlement.

Article 39 deals with reservations. It says in the first paragraph:

1. In addition to the power given in the preceding article, a party, in acceding to the present General Act, may make his acceptance conditional upon the reservations exhaustively enumerated in the following paragraph. These reservations must be indicated at the time of accession."

I draw attention to the phrase used in the first paragraph that these reservations are supposed to have been "exhaustively enumerated," and then the next paragraph goes on:

2. These reservations may be such as to exclude from the procedure described in the present Act:

(a) Disputes arising out of facts prior to the accession either of the party making the reservation or of any other party with whom the said party may have a dispute;

(b) Disputes concerning questions which by international law are solely within the domestic jurisdiction of States;

(c) Disputes concerning particular cases or clearly specified subject-matters, such as territorial status, or disputes falling within clearly-defined categories.

Paragraph 3 says:

If one of the parties to a dispute has made a reservation the other parties may enforce the same reservation in regard to that party.

Paragraph 4 says:

In the case of parties who have acceded to the provisions of the present General Act relating to judicial settlement or to arbitration, such reservations as they may have made shall, unless otherwise expressly stated, be deemed not to apply to the procedure of conciliation.

Finally, there is the usual article in a much more precise form this time than in the similar article in the statute of the Permanent Court. Article 41 deals with disputes as to interpretation. It states:

Disputes relating to the interpretation or application of the present General Act, including those concerning the classification of disputes and the scope of reservations, shall be submitted to the Permanent Court of International Justice.

We propose to sign this. There is no question of imposing a time limit in this matter because, under Article 45, the General Act shall be concluded for a period of five years, dating from its entry into force. It shall then remain in force for further successive periods of five years in the case of contracting parties which do not denounce it at least six months before the expiration of the current period. The General Act, once acceded to, runs in laps of five-year periods. There is no necessity to put in any phrase relating to time as we did in the case where the period was twenty years. I am proposing that we accept the whole Act and that we accept it unconditionally.

The British Government made certain reservations. The reservations are almost identical with the reservations made to their acceptance of the Optional Clause. They have included amongst them a reservation to this effect:

(1) That the following disputes (amongst others) are excluded from the procedure described in the General Act, including the procedure of conciliation:

(iii) Disputes between His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom and the Government of any other Member of the League which is a Member of the British Commonwealth of Nations, all of which disputes shall be settled in such a manner as the parties have agreed or shall agree;

There was a reservation almost in precise terms made with regard to the Optional Clause. Dealing with that in the Seanad and here, I expressed grave doubts as to the validity of the reservation in regard to the acceptance of the Statute of the Permanent Court. I read the portion of the Article dealing with reservations that might be made and argued that there was no room for a reservation which excluded disputes between certain specified States or groups of States. I felt that these could not come within the terms of Article 36 or the Statute of the Permanent Court.

I felt there might be some doubt as to the validity of any provision which seeks to exclude disputes between certain definite States or groups of States. Although the reservations are wider in their terms than in the Statute of the Permanent Court of International Justice, the same doubt exists.

In regard to disputes relating to the interpretation or application of the General Act, including those concerning the classification of disputes and the scope of reservations, the Act provides that they shall be submitted to the Permanent Court of International Justice. It will, therefore, when the occasion arises, decide on the validity of reservations with regard to the Commonwealth States; that is, if that matter has ever to be decided.

I think one has to have a considerable amount of optimism in one's composition to be enthusiastic about this procedure through which it is hoped to end war. The Minister appears to have quite a considerable amount of that optimism. For my part, I am afraid I have not got it, certainly not in the quantity that the Minister apparently possesses. I am rather cynical. Perhaps it is that I am a good many years older than the Minister, and perhaps it is the nature of the beast. I think everybody will agree that anything that can be done in order to make war more difficult and to bring nations to a realisation, if they need to be so brought, of the horrors of warfare, and thus to get them to adopt the methods that the League of Nations is year after year developing in the direction of a peaceful settlement of international disputes, will be all to the good.

The Minister quite properly said that, having signed without reservation the Optional Clause a year or so ago, it is only natural that we should sign what might be called a development of that procedure. We have always been content to allow our disputes with our neighbour to be discussed by an international tribunal, properly constituted. Our leaders have stated that openly and that is our position still. The time may come when the reservations that the Minister referred to, that have been made by the British Government with regard to the Optional Clause, and again with regard to this General Act, may have to be tested. The Minister maintains that the reservations are ultra vires. That may or may not be so. Great Britain will hold a contrary opinion and it may be that the matter will have to be tested. If it ever comes to the stage when the dispute that still exists between ourselves and our neighbour has to be put to the test, it would be better for all nations interested that that dispute, long as it has lasted, should be settled rather by conciliation, arbitration or judicial settlement than by resort to war.

I am, however, rather cynical and, despite all the engagements that have been entered into, no doubt with the very best intentions, by some of the greatest nations in the world, as well as some of the smallest, I feel that when the time comes, and when the interests of some of those great nations are at stake, they will do in the future what they have done in the past, ignore international treaties, engagements and obligations, General Acts and otherwise, and take the law into their own hands. However, if the signature by the great nations to documents of this kind, publicly and formally binding them to accept conciliatory methods to end international disputes, tend to make it more difficult to resort to war, we are certainly glad to join and to bring about that condition of affairs. Speaking generally for the Irish people, I say we would be happy if our own disputes could be settled through the same medium.

The Minister gave us an interesting account of recent developments which would seem to indicate, judging by the number of nations that have signed the Optional Clause and the number that have agreed to the General Act, that there is a considerable amount of real belief, if not enthusiasm, in the League of Nations method and machinery for the purpose of ending disputes. The more that spirit can be cultivated, the more it can grow and develop, the better it will be for the world. If our signature can help in that direction and if our belief, even modified and conditional as it may be, in the machinery to be utilised is of any value, then I think we ought to give it.

The Labour Movement and Labour Parties in all civilised countries on all occasions welcomed any method that would substitute warfare by peaceful methods of conciliation. For that reason we, the Labour Party, heartily welcome this motion. While we feel that it is not perhaps all that we might desire—undoubtedly the machinery set up under the League of Nations has its drawbacks and limitations—it does mark some advance, however small, along the road towards universal peace. I gather from the Minister's statement that there are three methods by which a peaceful solution without recourse to arms may be obtained through the machinery set up by the League of Nations—conciliation, arbitration or a judicial settlement.

It may be that one or other or perhaps all those methods may in some cases fail to produce the desired result, the result that we all earnestly hope and pray for, that is the ultimate success of the League of Nations in their programme for the solution of the world's economic and other ills by the method suggested in this motion. After the very elaborate and very clear statement made by the Minister for External Affairs, and the support that it got in the speech delivered by Deputy O'Kelly of the Fianna Fáil Party, there remains very little for me to say. If any machinery can be established which will tend towards the abolition of the horrors of war, it will have, as it had always, the support of this Party. We feel, as I am sure most of the Deputies in the Dáil feel, that in all wars it is the working classes who suffer most. They supplied the cannon fodder for the great European War. They have been the cannon fodder in all wars of conquest at all times. If some of us were, perhaps, over sanguine at the initiation of the League of Nations, over sanguine as to its ultimate results, we feel that there is no reason for disappointment up to the present.

Human nature being what it is, and recognising that there are certain factors in the political world to-day, which perhaps dominate the more sane and sensible views of the thinking masses of our people, yet we feel that any institution, even though it may have certain limitations and imperfections, any institution that will even go a small way in the direction of world peace should commend itself to Deputies of all Parties in this House. Any expenses that have been undertaken in connection with our association with the League of Nations are money well spent. I certainly must congratulate the Minister for External Affairs on the admirable way in which he has done his job, especially on these negotiations. I do not want to throw any bouquets at the Minister, but I do feel that he has done his job remarkably well, and for this reason I support this motion.

As a member of Dáil Eireann I felt extremely pleased and gratified to-day when I heard one of the leaders of Fianna Fáil give a benediction to the Minister for External Affairs on his great work at the League of Nations. I wish also to congratulate my fellow county man, Deputy Anthony. Deputy Anthony has realised that we have now at last, thank God, seized a position in world affairs that we did not hold for seven hundred years. Our voice now can be heard, and heard with great effect at the League of Nations. Small as we are as a nation, still we have noble and great traditions behind us. I feel, as far as this nation and its people are concerned, that their interests and the interests of the peace and concord amongst the nations is in safe keeping in the hands of the Minister for External Affairs.

I am delighted to find that the atmosphere of the Dáil is like the atmosphere of the League of Nations. We recognise that we are part and parcel of the entire world in endeavouring to keep off the horrors of war from the human race. That is a wonderful gesture that should wake in the hearts of every man, woman and child the feeling that we are at last improving our position, and that we are now side by side with the great and small nations of the earth. In connection with that matter it is only well to say that friendship and good fellowship are all that could be desired amongst the nations as well as amongst individuals.

The great President of the American Republic is not now averse to holding out the hand of friendship to the afflicted and distressed nations of Europe. He realises that the time has arrived when all turmoil, disunion and confusion should cease, and that if we are to make this world a world worth living for and living in we must do our part to carry on the great work of conciliation and building up the nations of the earth after the terrible war of 1914.

My friends, here in the Dáil we have a great lesson to learn from this, if we can only bring it home to ourselves. We have, in the League of Nations a splendid and noble example amongst the nations of the earth. We see how they are striving to hold out the hand of friendship to one another. The President of the great Republic of the West, the United States of America, is not averse to holding out the hand of friendship to European nations. We are not averse here to holding out our hands in welcome to the nations of the earth. We claim we have our position now amongst the people of Europe. No man can gainsay the point that we are an independent, self-governing nation, thanks to the heroism and sacrifices of the brave, great and dauntless generation of young men who won our liberties. Let us stand up to that position and we will be all right.

Since I entered the Dáil I did not feel so pleased as I do now on hearing from the benches opposite, from the members of Fianna Fáil, and from the Labour representatives here, their appreciation of the work of the Minister for External Affairs at Geneva. This Government and the Minister for External Affairs have done great and good work for the peace of the world at Geneva.

If the introduction of this motion can produce the same harmony and concert at the League of Nations that it appears to have produced in the Dáil it will have served its purpose. In the few remarks that I have to make I do not intend to concern myself with the merits of the Act as an instrument for a settlement pacifically of international differences. I do not think that as such it concerns us much. There are very few, except, perhaps, the Minister, who will maintain that we are exercising an effective control over our foreign policy, or over our relation with foreign States. What I am concerned about particularly is the history of the attitude of the Government to this Act. The Minister did not think fit to make any reference to that at all, despite the fact that, from time to time, conflicting statements concerning it have been made by the Minister. Various changes appear to have taken place in the Government's policy. In the year 1929 the Minister for External Affairs led our delegation to the Assembly of the League of Nations. Whilst there he announced the Government's decision to sign the Optional Clause without reservation.

In his speech in the Assembly in which that decision was announced he proceeded to refer to this General Act which is now before us. He said:

"The General Act as well as the model bilateral Treaties in regard to arbitration, conciliation and judicial settlement are now open to accession by the Members of the League. It is my intention to seek during the next session of the Oireachtas approval for the acceptance of the General Act by the Irish Free State."

That was in the autumn of 1929. The Minister having made that definite announcement of his intention to propose such a motion as is now before us, in the session of the Oireachtas following the meeting of the Assembly, failed to give effect to it. No proposal came before us. Apparently some modifications of the Government's policy took place following the Minister's return. We are anxious to know what was the cause of it. An entirely different policy in respect to the General Act was announced at the meeting of the Assembly in 1930 by the Minister for Finance, who, on that occasion, was the leader of our delegation. In the meantime, of course, the Free State Government had decided to offer itself as candidate for election to the Council of the League and, despite various doubts which were expressed from time to time, it succeeded in getting, in support of that candidature, the unanimous vote of the States Members of the British Empire. The policy of the Minister and the policy of the Government up to the date of the announcement of the candidature of the Free State for the Council of the League appeared to have been one of greater independence of British policy than it has since become.

Deputies will remember that the Government, in singing the Optional Clause without reservation, acted contrary to the wishes of the other Members of the Commonwealth, all of whom attached the same reservation as the British Government. When the Minister for Finance was speaking at the meeting of the Assembly last year, he indicated that the attitude of his Government to the principles embodied in this General Act had remained unchanged, but he did not indicate that the intention to come forthwith to the Oireachtas to seek approval for ratification was to be proceeded with. Although twelve months had elapsed since the original announcement of the Minister for External Affairs nothing was done and the Minister for Finance merely informed the League that the attitude of his Government to the Act would form the subject of consultation between all the States Members of the British Commonwealth at a meeting which they proposed to hold at an early date.

He said something more. Just read further on.

"My Government's ratification of the Optional Clause was deposited with the Secretary-General in the course of the year that has passed. So far as legal disputes are concerned, therefore, we have provided ourselves with the machinery of pacific settlement."

Read the next paragraph, with emphasis.

"It is the firm intention of my Government, in the year that is to come, to carry this process further and to provide the machinery for giving practical effect to all the obligations they incur by subscribing to the principle that none but pacific means may be sought for the settlement of international disputes." That is so much verbiage, when put into comparison with the statement which the Minister for External Affairs made at the previous Assembly. I will read that statement again: "It is my intention to seek during the next session of the Oireachtas approval for the acceptance of the General Act by the Irish Free State."

Explain the word "session."

If the Minister wants to ride away on that quibble, he is perfectly at liberty to do so. It may be that he was trying to deceive his auditors at the League Assembly, and that he used the word "session" knowing that they would not understand the meaning of it and that he could afterwards interpret it to suit his own convenience.

I did not mislead the Deputy.

The usual meaning attached to the word "session" by members of the Oireachtas is continuous meetings of the Dáil at any one part of the year. We have a session before Easter, a session after Easter and a session in the second part of the year. That may not be the legal meaning of the word "session." As far as I can discover, it has no legal meaning whatever. It might mean all the meetings of the Dáil from one general election to another or all the meetings of the Dáil from the beginning of the Free State to this day but, as far as I know, the usual meaning attached to the word here, and I have no doubt the meaning which the Minister intended to attach to it when speaking at the League Assembly, was the smaller meaning to which I at first referred, and that he gave the League Assembly to understand that he was going to seek approval for ratification within that year. He did not do so for some reasons which I am anxious to know. Why that change of policy? Had that change of policy anything to do with the Government's decision to offer the Free State as candidate for the League Council?

That can be answered immediately—no. The policy was the same.

Did the unanimous support which the Free State received from the other States Members of the British Commonwealth in its candidature depend on the Free State's Government indicating that the independent line of policy which it had hitherto adopted, as indicated by its action on the Optional Clause, was going to be abandoned and that before it took such action as the ratification of this General Act, the Government would, as the Minister for Finance said, go into consultation with the other States Members of the British Commonwealth and get their approval?

Clearly not.

That is not clear.

We are bringing it forward now unconditionally.

The Minister is bringing forward this proposal now. I take it he is bringing it forward with the approval of the other States Members of the British Commonwealth.

That is quite wrong.

If that is quite wrong the Dáil should be so informed. The Vice-President of the Free State Executive, the leader of the Free State delegation to the Assembly announced there that the attitude of his Government to the Act was going to be the subject of consultation with other States Members of the British Commonwealth.

It was not the attitude of his Government that was going to be the subject of consultation.

The attitude?

No, the Act would form the subject of consultation.

"The attitude which we have already declared with regard to the principles contained in the General Act remains unchanged."

Remains unchanged.

"And as the other speakers have already intimated here, the Act will form the subject of consultation between all the States Members of the British Commonwealth at the meeting which they propose to hold at an early date."

Surely that is very plain.

Let us have the history of this. The Minister announced his Government's acceptance of the principles of the Act. He announced his intention to seek approval for ratification in the second half of 1929.

The Minister did.

The Minister is quibbling on the meaning of the word "session" but that is the commonsense interpretation of the expression he used. The whole of the year 1930 passed without the Minister seeking approval. The League Assembly met again in the Autumn of 1930, and this time, when the Minister for Finance was the leader of the delegation, he announced that although the attitude to the Act remained unchanged it was going to be the subject of consultation.

What was going to be the subject of consultation?

Let the Deputy make his case.

The Act was going to be subject to consultation between the States Members of the British Empire. That consultation, presumably, took place and, following that consultation, we have this motion submitted to us, according to the Minister, without the approval of the other States Members of the British Empire. The British Government, he informs us, has signed with certain reservations. He is proposing to sign without reservations. What is the attitude of the other States Members of the Commonwealth to this Act? Are they proposing to accept the British reservation, or are they, like the Minister, proposing to sign without reservation?

With reservation.

All of them?

I think all of them.

The Minister is taking on this matter the same attitude that he took on the Optional Clause.

The attitude is unchanged.

Does not the Minister think that he should have informed the Dáil of that fact?

Of what fact?

Of the fact that on this Act he had gone into consultation with the other States Members and had then decided to take a different line from theirs.

Surely that is common knowledge.

I do not think it is. I think I have already explained that it was impossible for anyone except the Minister to know what the Government's attitude to the act was because of the conflicting statements that have appeared and the changes of policy that seem to have been made. That is the position. However, I want to get clear from the Minister that the support which the Free State got in its candidature for the League of Nations was not subject to any condition that the policy of the Government on the Council of the League would be in conformity with the wishes of the other States Members of the British Empire, and that the representative of the Free State there would act as the representative of what might be called the policy of the British Empire. There is reason to believe that the Free State secured the support which meant election for it at a price which involved a considerable sacrifice of its diplomatic freedom and independence.

Is there reason to believe that?

Would the Deputy state the reason?

The general change which has taken place in the attitude of the Minister.

That refers to what the Deputy has just been talking about?

That is one of the matters; we can discuss the others on the Estimates which are to come before us. I want to get quite clear what the Minister's attitude on that matter is. So far as the Act is concerned, it is of very little importance to us. No matter what Deputy Sheehy or Deputy Anthony may say, the question whether or not we are going to be involved in war will not be decided by us. It will be decided by the British Government, and it is of much more significance to us that the British Government has decided to ratify this Act than that we have.

The Minister said that he had grave doubts as to the power of any party to make a reservation as to particular States. I think he ought to tell us what grounds he is going on in that matter, because it is a most serious thing if this Act is to be of any use. A State is only bound by the reservations made by the State with which it has a dispute. In other words, if we have a dispute with England which we want to submit to the Conciliation Board or the Arbitral Tribunal, and England says she does not recognise the authority of that Tribunal to deal with a dispute between two of the Commonwealth States, then where are we? Who is to decide whether there is power or not?

Will it be bound by that?

Read the General Act.

What are these non-legal disputes that are referred to? Would a question such as the question of the Six Counties come under the heading of a non-legal dispute?

What sort of dispute?

Suppose we were to raise the whole question of bringing in the Six Counties, could a dispute of that character be dealt with by that Tribunal?

On the basis of the interpretation of the Treaty, that is a legal dispute.

Suppose the Treaty is broken in any way, does that make it a non-legal dispute?

I read out that. The phrase that is used is: "The existence of any fact which, if established, would constitute the breach of an international obligation." That is item C of the classes of dispute covered by the statute of the Court.

What number is that?

It is not in the General Act. It is a statute of the Court. In the part of the General Act that deals with judicial settlements, Article 17 refers to certain disputes. The second paragraph, page 4, says:

It is understood that the disputes referred to above include in particular those mentioned in Article 36 of the statute of the Permanent Court of International Justice.

That is one of the points mentioned in Article 36 of the statute.

So that breaches of that sort could be raised at the International Court.

Those are all the points I wish to raise.

Deputy O'Kelly has accepted this Act with a certain amount of cynicism, attributable to his age or temperament. Deputy Anthony accepts it with a certain amount of fervour, due, perhaps, also to his temperament. Of the two, I would prefer Deputy Anthony's outlook to Deputy O'Kelly's. It is easy to be cynical about all these matters. It is particularly easy when nations have not yet clearly made up their minds that the point has been reached at which disarmament of a decent type must come about because naturally, at the moment, while nations sign all these things, they have a certain amount of suspicion, at any rate, towards one another. Even in these circumstances there is room for something more than cynicism. Anybody who can look back at the conditions which prevailed at the outbreak of the European War must have realised the tremendous effect that public opinion had, particularly with regard to the nations that were going to join in that struggle. This General Act, at any rate—let us put it at no higher than this—does put those people in the position in face of world public opinion hereafter that, having signed Kellogg Pacts, agreed to Covenants of the League and entered upon agreements such as the General Act, nevertheless they throw aside all sorts of conciliation, arbitration, judicial settlements and so on and go out for war. It is going to be hard to get an impartial public opinion to favour such a nation hereafter. There will be many signposts whereby a nation will be marked out more or less as the aggressor, though it may not be sufficiently defined to be brought within the terms of a particular statute. Deputy Lemass referred to what he described as "conflicting statements" and "changes of policy" in regard to this matter which, he argued, give reason for the belief that support of the British Commonwealth of Nations was bought at the price of something that amounts to subservience to British foreign policy. There was no conflicting statement produced. There was no change of policy indicated. I tried to take the Deputy over the ground and to make him realise the points that he had not referred to. I tried to get him to quote to the House in an open fashion the whole statement which the Vice-President made in the year 1930 and to put that in contrast with what had already been said. What is the conflict? Let us say that the next session covered the period between the time I spoke and the Christmas of 1929. Where is the conflict and change of policy because the motion was not brought in in that time? As far as the change of policy is concerned, leave out the time element for the moment. This motion is being brought in now. Take the statement made by me in 1929, that we were going to accept this in the broadest way, and the statement made by the Vice-President in 1930 that our attitude with regard to this is unchanged, that we had already done certain things in regard to legal disputes—signed optional clauses and carried the whole thing through—that we proposed to ratify this Act and provide machinery for giving effect to all the obligations that we incur. We do bring this motion forward now, without any modification or reservation. In 1929 that was not the situation, but we do it now when the other members of the British Commonwealth of Nations have decided—I speak with reserve because I am not sure of them all—to sign with the same reservation and, I presume, with the same feelings as those with which they approached the signature of the Optional Clause.

I want to find where is the conflicting statement or change of policy. At the most, it was that something was not done between September, 1929, and Christmas that has been done now. Deputy Lemass says that is the reason which entitles him to conclude that the support to the Council was bought. It was clearly not bought from this, or else we are playing a very tricky type of game. The Deputy's thoughts must run in this way: that if we held off signature we would get support to go on the Council, and now, being on the Council, we are prepared to sign without modification where we previously had agreed to modify. There is no such conduct being carried on. We always maintained the attitude that we were going to do it without any condition, and that we did not care what other view was held. That was our point of view, and it was realised that that point of view in our signing the Optional Clause was as logical as the other view was logical in regard to signing the Optional Clause. It was a declaration of a point of view and a clear acceptance that the logical course for people who signed the Optional Clause was to go on and sign the General Act in the same way. If I made an endeavour after the 1929 conference to get the Optional Clause accepted, to get the matter brought here, to get ratification and to be completely established with regard to the Optional Clause I had in mind at that time Article 29 of this. When we now proceed to sign Article 29 it is signed and carries the signature in the Optional Clause in its relation to legal disputes without any reservation. It particularly carries in the British signature. It was of the greatest importance to us to have the Optional Clause signed prior to approaching the General Act, and to have it signed in a particular way. There was no modification of views, and what the Deputy read from the Minister for Finance's speech before 1930 shows that.

"The attitude of our Government to the principles embodied in this General Act remains unchanged.

My Government's ratification of the Optional Clause was deposited with the Secretary General in the course of the year that has passed. So far as legal disputes are concerned, therefore, we have provided ourselves with the machinery of pacific settlement.

It is the firm intention of my Government, in the year that is to come, to carry this process further and to provide the machinery for giving practical effect to all the obligations they incur by subscribing to the principle that none but pacific means may be sought for the settlement of international disputes."

The Deputy does not date himself properly. I know at the time when we were going to make application to sit on the Council last year the paper which the Deputy subscribes to did bring out that we were going to get British support by dropping the General Act. It was a bad thing to bring forward foolish statements like that at a time when the statement was being controverted by fact. We are bringing forward the General Act without modification. My statement in 1929 followed by the Minister's statement in 1930 set forth our position and our attitude in full. We were going further this year and were seeking pacific means of settlement not merely of legal disputes but all classes of disputes. There was no conflicting statement, no change of policy, no reason to say that support was bought when in fact no support was bought, and there is no subservience of any policy to anything a British Minister may do or may want to do.

Motion put and agreed to.
Barr
Roinn