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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 16 Jul 1931

Vol. 39 No. 17

Supplementary Estimates. - Vote 47—Secondary Education.

I move:

Go ndeontar bhreise suim ná raghaidh thar £300 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1932, chun Meadhon-Oideachais, maraon le Deontas Tuarastal na Múinteoirí, Deontas Ceann-tsraithe agus Breis-Thuarastal Mhúinteoirí Meadhon-Scoileanna.

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £300 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1932, for Secondary Education, including the Teachers Salaries Grant, Capitation Grant and Incremental Salary to Secondary School Teachers.

This Supplementary Estimate is intended to inaugurate a scheme for scholarships for children of Irish-speaking families in the Fior-Ghaeltacht. We have had considerable difficulty in getting candidates to come forward from the Fior-Ghaeltacht for some of our public examinations, even for the preparatory training colleges. We actually reserved a number of places for those who got 75 per cent. qualification in oral Irish. It has been found difficult to get the number of pupils that we would like from the Irish-speaking districts proper. That is more marked in the case of some of the Irish-speaking districts than in the case of others and, consequently, it will probably be necessary to have some sort of a geographical allocation of the scholarships that we now propose to establish. We are not only anxious to get, for the purpose of general education in teaching, the pupils from these particular areas, but we are also anxious to influence the areas themselves. Consequently, it may be necessary to have a certain geographical division of the number of scholarships that we intend to offer.

It is intended to take a number of pupils each year from the Fior-Ghaeltacht, members of Irish-speaking families, and to send them to secondary schools, in the case of girls to schools in which with the exception of English, all subjects are taught through the medium of Irish, and, in the case of boys, to one school. There will be offered ultimately 18 scholarships each year, of which 9 will be reserved for girls. In the case of girls, 6 free places will be reserved in the Kilmacud Training School of Domestic Economy, if the girls care for that particular profession. We are anxious to start as soon as possible and that is the reason for introducing this Supplementary Estimate.

If the Estimate is passed. we intend to choose six girls this year from the Fior-Ghaeltacht. There is a reason for that. Owing to the difficulty we have found in getting native Irish speakers for the position of domestic economy instructress, we hope to be able to make a start, utilising the last preparatory scholarship for the purpose. The scholarship will consist of free education at the types of school that I have mentioned for the chosen boys and girls and a certain amount each year will be allowed for necessary expenses and equipment. We realise that in the case of many families the parents will not be able to supply necessary equipment.

The sum asked for this year is only £300. It covers six scholarships for six months beginning next September. The ultimate cost in four or five years' time —the scholarships may be tenable for four or five years—will be £5,000.

I think all Deputies will welcome this scheme. It will be realised by Deputies on all sides of the House that, by reason of the schools in the Gaeltacht being in the main small and poor schools, the pupils there find it difficult to compete with pupils from the Breac-Ghaeltacht, or even from the Gaeltacht, in many examinations. In those circumstances such a scheme as this is necessary.

It is also gratifying to learn from the Minister that the scholarships will include not only free education, but necessary expenses and equipment. The fault that has been found with county council scholarships is that they are often not available for the poor boy, that they do not enable him to live at the same standard as the others, say, in the school or elsewhere, or even avail of the scholarships at all, on account of these other necessary expenses. For that reason, it is gratifying to learn that these things are included, as well as free education, so that even the poorest, if they have the ability, will be able to avail of the scholarships. The Minister said that there will be six scholarships this year. Does he mean £100 each?

Yes, six this year.

For Kilmacud?

Not necessarily, but I wonder will preparations be made in Kilmacud and the instruction given there, so that if they get a really Irish education in the secondary schools they will be able to continue on the same lines in Kilmacud.

It will take a couple of years before they reach Kilmacud.

In two years time?

What is the basis on which the scholarships are to be awarded—what is the nature of the test?

Generally speaking, on the test of the entrance to the preparatory college.

In that connection a matter occurs to me. We know that where there are public scholarships and tests for scholarships a system of preparation generally grows up in certain particularly well-equipped schools for that purpose, and the people whom we are anxious to help in that matter must have an opportunity to go to schools of that kind. It struck me that it might be possible for the Department to arrange some system with the national school teachers, so that there will be an opportunity for preparation afforded to likely pupils in the various areas. Most of us know that long ago national school teachers who were particularly well qualified were able to prepare students locally for the Civil Service and other examinations. It seems to me, if we are to achieve what we have in mind here by the institution of these scholarships, there must be some means provided by which the clever students will be given locally the amount of training that will enable them to compete successfully. I think that the whole scheme will more or less be a failure unless we are able to bring it home to the people who are too poor to send their children to institutions which might be regarded as grinding institutions, if you like, for preparation for these scholarships. The only way I can see of doing that, if there are to be any tests of this kind, would be to make some arrangement by which such a training would be given in the national schools locally.

I think I can satisfy the Deputy on that. The idea is to take them from the national schools in the Gaeltacht, as at present. They go in for the preparatory school examination, and on the entrance to the preparatory school they will be taken in, so many from the Donegal Gaeltacht, so many from the Western Gaeltacht, and so many from the Southern Gaeltacht. They will be taken from the pupils actually attending the national schools in the Gaeltacht, and not from grinding institutions in Dublin or elsewhere.

Is it not likely that grinding institutions will arise in connection with this?

One of the results I hope to achieve by this is to stimulate the schools in the Gaeltacht by taking the pupils from the schools there. I find that at present, although we have, along the lines I indicated, tried to stimulate them by reserving 50 per cent. of the places for those who get 85 per cent. in oral Irish, it has not worked. We hope practically to force them to take an interest, so as to prepare for this examination in the Gaeltacht itself. One of the results I hope to achieve is not merely to get the pupils from the Gaeltacht, but also to affect the schools in the Gaeltacht.

If the Minister succeeds in that it will be all right.

I am not quite clear as to the last point. A large number of free places, I understand, have been granted hitherto in the preparatory colleges and a large number of students are prepared in the Gaeltacht.

There is not a large number from certain of the Gaeltacht areas in these preparatory colleges at present—not as many as I would like.

I understood, from information I got in another place, that there were something like 120.

Not from the Fior-Ghaeltacht, and especially not from some of the larger Fior-Ghaeltachta.

I hope that the Minister will put these students into the preparatory colleges if possible. It seems to me there is a far better environment there for the purpose of keeping up the Irish atmosphere than in some of the schools even of the "A" type he has referred to, but the Minister has to take other circumstances into consideration in that again. Personally, I think it would be better to put them into the preparatory colleges in Dublin that have been so successful. As to the question of the Irish-speaking families, I am anxious that these scholarships should be confined to the poorest class in the Gaeltacht and that they should not be given to people in receipt of fairly substantial incomes and who ought to be in a fair way to educate their children, particularly as these people, as a matter of fact, have at present the facilities under the ordinary preparatory scholarships. I think that this amount of money ought to be reserved very strictly for the types of cases that I think the Minister has in mind, that is poor people who are just living on small holdings.

Might I ask the Minister how he proposes to allocate these scholarships? I am thinking of Waterford and the area around Ring and Lismore.

I could not answer off-hand. I will have to make certain regulations as regards that. We will probably divide them. Take the Southern Gaeltacht together, that is Kerry, Cork and Waterford. We regard that as one area. The western area is another. That is Mayo and Connemara.

What about Clare?

Clare and Kerry, if you wish. It is practically confined to Carrigaholt. I can put that with Kerry.

I suggest on account of there being such teaching facilities in Ring College that it might be availed of. Also on account of the fact that Ring Irish is somewhat different and quite unique, it should get special attention.

One of the things I want to do is to bring other places to the same conception of Irish as Ring and I do not see how I can help along the lines suggested by the Deputy.

Vote put and agreed to.
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