Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 16 Jul 1931

Vol. 39 No. 17

Supplementary Estimate. - Vote No. 56.—Industry and Commerce.

Mr. Blythe

I move:

Go ndeontar suim bhreise ná raghaidh thar £1,000, chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mharta, 1932, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Tionnscail agus Tráchtála maraon le Coiste Comhairlitheach na Rátaí.

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £1,000 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1932, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Industry and Commerce including the Rates Advisory Committee.

Mr. McGilligan

This sum of £1,000 is for the purpose of a grant to the Irish Aero Club. That Club was founded in 1928 for the purpose of furthering civil aviation in this country. At present its income is derived from the subscriptions of its members and certain fees collected for instruction and flights. Its expenses are heavy. The Club had to purchase machines and there is a certain amount of expense in connection with the maintenance and depreciation of these, and also with operations. The Club has also to fee instructors from the point of view of tuitions for flight purposes. The membership has fallen very considerably since its first foundation and it is represented that this is due to the fact that the Club has not sufficient machines and that it has only been able to secure the services of a part-time instructor. We accept that the existence of some such Club as this is a necessity, seeing that the Government has accepted the International Air Regulations and has become a member of the International Commission for the purpose of carrying out these regulations. Secondly, we want to have something in the nature of a governing authority in the country acting in conjunction with the Ministry for the purpose of seeing that the regulations issued under the Air Navigation Code are kept. If the Club is to function, it has been represented to us that it must improve the facilities that it gives to members and it seems most likely that this can be done by securing at least one other machine and by the payment of such monies as will provide them with an instructor on a full-time basis. There is the further point that if the Club is allowed to lapse, certain people who are now training and who are desirous of taking out a pilot's licence will have to get this elsewhere, and we want to prevent that. If the money is granted we will have to make certain arrangements with people connected with the Club to see that the money is vested in such a way as will enable men to get certain guarantees with regard to the air regulations being carried out.

Mr. Lemass

I was interested when this Supplementary Estimate was submitted to the Dáil on account of various references to it that have appeared in the Press from time to time. As Deputies will remember, it was announced here at one time by Deputy Esmonde who is, I think, chairman of the Aero Club, that he had received a definite undertaking from the Government that such an estimate would be introduced for the year 1930, and that he had a written undertaking from the Minister for Industry and Commerce to that effect, but that that undertaking has been broken and consequently that Deputy Esmonde's position as a member of the Dáil was giving him very grave concern and he announced that he would have to reconsider it. The Deputy read at the time a letter Deputy Esmonde received from the Department of Industry and Commerce. Subsequent to that a sub-head was introduced in the Estimates for the Department of Defence I think to enable discussion to take place upon the matter in the Dáil. No discussion did take place. Deputy Esmonde attended in the House when the Estimate was before it, but he failed to speak.

Some time later at another function in Dublin he spoke again and referred to the failure of the Government to fulfil the written promise it had made, and described it in his opinion as a very serious breach of honour. Now the Estimate is before us. The Minister has given some explanation of its purpose, but it is not clear that that is the whole explanation. The expenditure of £1,000 in the development of civil aviation in this country will produce very little result. The giving of that £1,000 to the Aero Club does not seem likely to produce any fruitful consequences either. It would seem that the sole reason why this Estimate is introduced and the money is to be expended is to get Deputy Esmonde out of an awkward situation. He announced his intention of reconsidering his position as a member of the Dáil if the Estimate was not introduced. It is now introduced. Is this Estimate for £1,000 introduced for the purpose of keeping Deputy Esmonde here? Is he worth it? That is a question which members of the Dáil have to consider. There is no doubt what the answer from these benches would be, but what the answer from the benches opposite will be we do not know. We are anxious to find it out. Do they consider Deputy Esmonde worth £1,000? That is apparently the purpose for which the Estimate is introduced and that is a question which must be answered.

I do not know whether I would be in order on this Estimate to go into the question of the Government's general attitude towards the development of civil aviation in the country. That was a matter that we thought we would have an opportunity of expressing our opinion upon some time on the motion down on the Paper in the name of Deputy Esmonde. But when the motion was called Deputy Esmonde was not here, and it was not discussed. Deputy Esmonde again put the motion back on the Paper and now it is not likely to be discussed for another twelve months. If this Supplementary Estimate would give us an opportunity of ascertaining the Government's attitude towards civil aviation in general and particularly towards the projects referred to in the Press it would serve our purpose equally well. I think the Minister in introducing this Estimate proposing to provide £1,000 for the Aero Club formed for the purpose of developing civil aviation might give some indication of the Government's attitude on the whole question.

We must remember that from time to time announcements have appeared in the Press concerning projects for the development of an aviation service between stations in this country, continental and other countries, all of which disappeared after some time silently and mysteriously. Some years ago it was even announced that the Cabinet had met and decided to establish a special department of civil aviation and to embark upon a large development scheme involving considerable cost. Nothing more was heard about that. Various continental firms have come here and investigated the possibility of developing an air service based on Galway, Cobh, Ballincollig and other places. Press references in connection with those activities have appeared and then no more was heard about them. What influence is at work delaying or preventing the development of civil aviation in this country? Can the Minister give us any information on the matter? I think he could. We are very anxious to see the unique geographical position of the country in respect to aero service properly developed. We want that development to take place under native control. If it is not to take place under native control we would prefer no development to take place at all. We know there are strong military and political reasons why Great Britain should desire to exercise effective control over any civil aviation lines established here. In that connection we would like if the Minister would tell us what is the position concerning the Convention referred to in the annexe to the Treaty of 1921. Have any attempts been made to draft that Convention, and, if so, with what result? Is the delay in the development of civil aviation here in any way consequent on the delay or failure to prepare that Convention or to the existence of that particular clause in the annexe to the Treaty? I would be glad for some information on those matters.

Mr. Moore

Are we to understand from the Minister's statement that the sole purpose of this £1,000 is to provide a governing body in order to fulfil certain international obligations? If so, I think the Minister should tell us what arrangements he is going to make to see that the Aero Club will act in a responsible way and fulfil his intention. Does he intend to be represented on the committee of the club? I am afraid as it will look in the newspapers, and as one would be justified in looking at it at the present time, it is really £1,000 to provide recreation for a certain number of wealthy people—chiefly Sunday afternoon recreation. The people who will avail of this additional machine and of this whole-time instructor, are not people who are interested in the question for any national purpose, or from any desire to see Ireland strengthened by having this service established. They are people who have exhausted all other amusements, and they are simply out to see if there is any stimulus in this. It is rather a strange thing if the Dáil is to be left under the impression that they are voting a large sum of £1,000 for aviation when it is simply to encourage a situation of that kind.

The Minister makes no reference whatever to the attitude of the Government towards civil aviation, and whether the Government think there is any future for civil aviation in Ireland apart from international services. One would think that that would be one of the necessary things that he would have dealt with, because it is a question on which there is great difference of opinion. Most people hold that there is no future for civil aviation within Ireland, as the country is too small to allow for internal services. With regard to international services, that is a question I take it on which we would have very little to say, as it is very unlikely that international services will be organised within the Saorstát. At least, we are entitled to some information as to what is in the mind of the Government and to more than what the Minister has stated. To my mind, the Minister gave an inadequate reason for voting this money.

Mr. McGilligan

I have said all that I intend to say about the sum of money for which I am asking. I did not mention the bigger question of civil aviation, because I did not think it appropriate to this Vote. As it has been raised, I can answer briefly that I have never yet got any scheme of civil aviation that promised a future in this country. Any scheme that was put up was based on the experiment of paying subsidies, which this country would not be able to afford, and, as far as I am concerned, I will look for no new money for the development of civil aviation. I do not know where Deputy Lemass gets his information about meetings being held and about all sorts of people coming forward with schemes. Very few people have put forward schemes.

Mr. Lemass

I am only taking the reports in the Press.

Mr. McGilligan

I thought it was the Press, as usual. The Deputy is very much in the air when he confines himself to Press reports. He raised the question of the Convention annexed to the Treaty. It has not been made yet. That Convention has nothing to do with civil aviation. It is tied on to a particular Article of the Treaty.

The particular type of civil aviation that we are concerned with is ordinary civil aviation. Aviation for commercial purposes is not in any way attached to the Treaty. There is not, therefore, any hindrance to a scheme being developed here by reason of the failure to make a convention on that point. If and when schemes are brought forward that seem to have a future they will be considered seriously. Very few were put forward. I think I only knew of one that came to a point, and that demanded a subsidy that I would not take the responsibility of coming to the Dáil to ask. The club, I think, is on a good basis now. I had actually this Vote ready for introduction, and I got leave to introduce it last year when I discovered certain things with regard to the Irish Aero Club which made me hold my hand for the time being. I had meetings since with the board of management and with the directors, and everything is going harmoniously now. I have no reason to believe that there will be any difficulty in the future. I intend to make certain arrangements with some of the prominent members to see that the money will be properly expended. I do not intend at the moment to look for direct representation on the board of the club, as I do not think that could be allowed under the articles of the club. It is desirable to keep civil aviation in a limited way, at any rate, going, and this club is doing very useful work in that way We are getting it done much more cheaply, by voluntary service and by the fees paid by the members, than we could get it in any other way.

Mr. Lemass

Is it intended that this will be an annual subsidy, or is it merely a grant?

Mr. McGilligan

I am only putting it forward for this year. I do not know what will happen next year.

Question put and agreed to.

The Dáil went out of Committee.