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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 16 Jul 1931

Vol. 39 No. 17

In Committee on Finance. - Report of the Commonwealth Conference: Motion of Approval.

I move:

That Dáil Eireann approves of the Report of the Commonwealth Conference, 1930, and recommends the Executive Council to take such steps as they think fit to give effect thereto.

On account of the matters that have been occupying my attention during the week I propose in moving this motion to refer much move copiously to notes than is my custom.

This House has had before it the Report of the Conference held in 1929. That Conference dealt with the operation of Dominion legislation. Part 6 of the present Report deals under (a) with the report of that Conference. It indicates that the Conference of 1930 approved of and adopted it as part of this Report. I do not propose at this stage to examine again the details of the Report of the 1929 Conference. I would like to call the attention of the House to the fact that those comparatively few—twelve or thirteen—pages of this Report which relate to those relations of Great Britain to the other members of the Commonwealth which were formerly regulated by a central Executive and a central Parliament mark, definitely and clearly, the end of an epoch. They are the last chapter in the history of one of the most highly organised and effective legal systems of which there is any record. I stated to the House two years ago that it was the purpose of the Conference of 1929 that the whole legal machinery of the old Colonial Empire should be taken asunder in so far as the Commonwealth of Nations was concerned.

In the year 1930 I submitted to the judgment of the House that the recommendations of the Conference of 1929 had carried out that purpose. The Conference of 1930 approved the recommendations of that of 1929, and that approval closes the story. The system which it took centuries to build up has been brought to an end by four years of assiduous concentrated collaboration between the lawyers and the statement of the States of the Commonwealth. I say four years, because the beginnings of this task were made at the Conference of 1926 at the instance of the late Vice-President of the Irish Free State and his colleagues at that Conference. Let me, for one moment, advert to what precisely this Part of the Report means.

You cannot approach the consideration of this subject—the subject of the relationship between Great Britain and the other members of the Commonwealth of Nations—as if it had no history, no genesis, no development, no chequered background of alternate controversy, constraint, concession and ultimate progress. When the Irish Free State came into existence in 1921 we happened to strike in at a definite stage in the evolution of the other members of the Commonwealth. But their evolution, though politically rapid, had been slow from the point of view of the legal expression of the political facts. There was a whole hinterland of highly anomalous law to be cleared out of the way, and an elaborate system of administrative practice to be transformed or discontinued.

Deputies will agree with me when I say that there can be no two views on the question that when this country accepted the status of Canada in certain respects in 1921 the status of Canada then accepted was not a stereotyped legal formula. Therein lies the kernal of the whole Treaty position and the key to the progress that has gone on—I will not say at our whole behest, or even always at our instance—since 1926. How well the founders of this State builded the developments which have since taken place go to show. The task begun in 1926—the first Commonwealth Conference since the Treaty, in which we took an active part—is completed in the paragraphs written down in Part VI. of this Report. What will be the result when the enactments referred to there are passed into law?

[Professor Thrift took the Chair.]

Let me take, first of all, the declaration set out on page 18 of the Report: "No Act of Parliament of the United Kingdom passed after the commencement of this Act shall extend, or be deemed to extend, to a Dominion as part of the law of that Dominion, unless it is expressly declared in that Act that that Dominion has requested and consented to the enactment there of." I should point out that there is a slight misprint in the declaration as it appears in the Report: the words "in force in" should be deleted and the word "of" inserted instead. That declaration amounts to an act of renunciation by the British Parliament to legislate for the members of the Commonwealth. If any Deputy has doubts about it let him consult the text of this Report on page 18 itself. So sweeping was the declaration that it was feared that it put the British Parliament in a worse position vis-a-vis the members of the Commonwealth than that in which the Parliament of any State (not a member of the Commonwealth) stands in relation to other States generally.

I should explain that in more detail. The House is aware that although the Parliament of the French Republic does not legislate for the German Reich, nevertheless, the laws of the French Republic can have effect in respect of acts done in German territory. The United Kingdom delegates at the Conference of 1930 feared that if the declaration stood in the form first set out on page 18, the effect would be to prevent any statute of the British Parliament from having "the operation which the legislation of one State normally has in relation to the territory of another." In other words, they feared that the effect of a declaration in the form referred to would be to prevent an Act of the British Parliament which declared bigamy unlawful having any effect if the bigamous act took place in, say, Canada or South Africa, whereas the bigamous act would be an offence punishable under its law if it took place in France or Germany. That view was met by the insertion of the words "as part of the law of the Dominion" in the draft declaration in the place where it now occurs in italics.

The result of the amendment is that while the declaration will now have the effect of preventing a British statute from operating in the territory of any of the States of the Commonwealth proprio vigore, i.e., in the manner in which such an Act had effect previously, and still has in the British colonies and dependencies, it will, at the same time, not expire on the frontiers of those States, but will operate to enable the British courts to take cognisance of acts done either in accordance with or contrary to the statute within the territory of those States as they do acts so done within the territory of, say, the United States or Japan. In a word, the principle of international comity is preserved.

But apart from this difficulty of interpretation, what is the essential doctrine fastened into that declaration? That declaration will not remain merely as a record in the report of a conference of delegates from the various parts of the Commonwealth. It will become at the end of this year an enactment in a British statute. And its effect then will be to destroy as a matter of law what has already been destroyed as a matter of practice, the legislative sovereignty of the British Parliament in the Commonwealth in the sense in which it existed and functioned since the foundations of the Colonial Empire were laid. The importance of that achievement is beyond question. I do not want to overstress it, but I do not want to have the effect of it minimised.

If I am asked why this result could not have been achieved in another way, by an agreement, for example—an agreement resembling the Treaty of 1921, I will say that it could have been achieved in that way and that an agreement to effect the same result was in fact discussed. But so long as the result aimed at was secured it did not matter much how exactly it was carried out. But if I am asked why was it proposed that the declaration referred to and the other declarations in this part of the report should go into a British statute at all, my answer is this—a very simple answer—that you would have had a British statute in any event, a statute ratifying the agreement, but that, above all, you had to have an Act of that particular Parliament by which the powers now taken away, the rights now denied, were exercised. One has not heard of a Canadian statute applying to South Africa in the same way— i.e., of its own force and with the authority of a sovereign Parliament exercising jurisdiction in South Africa behind it—as that in which a British statute applied to Australia or Newfoundland. It was the British Parliament only which legislated in that way. Hence this declaratory British statute. Or, to put it in another way, this declaration must be understood in two senses, or rather, it must be viewed from two angles. It must be viewed from the point of view of the history, which it ends as well as from that of the history which it begins. The last words in the long story of British legislative supremacy occur nowhere more fittingly than in a statute passed as its own deliberate act by the assembly most closely associated with that phenomenon. Lastly, there were the courts—you had to put an end to speculative judicial thought, you had to coerce the judicial mind, I do not say here, but in those States of the Commonwealth where the Imperial statute—as it was called—ran for so long, and where the swift sword of the Colonial Laws Validity Act had been wielded so frequently and dealt such quick disaster to the laws of their own Parliaments. And the House will agree that the only way in which to coerce the judgment of lawyers trained in such a tradition was by putting an end once and for all to the principle upon which it rested, putting an end to it in a definite legal way, a way which would leave no margin what ever for those amazing speculations in which judges sometimes indulge—in a word, by an Act of Parliament.

I do not hesitate to say that the constitutional status of Canada would have advanced far beyond the stage which it had reached when the statesmen of that country had to exact the right to sign the Treaty of Versailles, had not the distinguished and learned judges of that Dominion failed to read aright the measure of her independence. But that chapter also ends in the declaration here made.

In the schedule on page 19 of the Report the first clause is that containing the declaration that the Parliaments of the States of the Commonwealth have full power to pass laws having extra territorial operation. I dealt fully with this clause last year and endeavoured to reply to some criticism of it from the benches opposite. The declaration is quite clear and I do not think that Deputies can have any doubt either as to its meaning or its importance.

It will be remembered that the theory that the old-time colonies of the British Empire as formerly constituted could not pass laws having extra-territorial operation rested upon a judicial decision and not upon any express statutory limitation in the Acts by which those colonies were constituted or governed. The validity of that decision was always a matter of doubt, and the principle of it was broken in upon by some—but not many —subsequent decisions. I do not propose to reopen the discussion (now as a result of the Report of 1929 and this Report of interest only to the constitutional historians of the old British Empire) as to the validity of that decision—McLeod's case—here. I want to say that upon a foundation so uncertain a vast structure of theoretical law and administrative practice was superimposed. Laws so fundamental to a nation's political and economic life as the Nationality Law and the Merchant Shipping Law were affected by it. A Canadian citizen ceased to be a Canadian citizen when he left Canada to spend the week-end in New York; an Australian vessel ceased to be legally Australian when she sailed the waters of the Pacific or the Indian Ocean. All that sort of consequence followed from the decision that McLeod was not a bigamist because his second marriage took place outside the colony of New South Wales in a territory which the statute of the New South Wales legislature under which he was tried was held not to reach.

All that sort of consequence was, of course, in direct conflict with the new status of the members of the Commonwealth. The States of the Association of which we became members in 1921 refused to regard the principle of a thirty years' old legal decision as consistent either with the sovereign rights of their Parliaments or the international position which they had established, and which called for legislative powers commensurate with their individual responsibility in respect of their own nationals abroad and their responsibility to the other States of the world in those matters where by international law or usage responbility "is engaged." To confine the jurisdictional horizons of the legislature of the old British colony to its territorial boundaries was perhaps, although doubtful in law, wise Imperial policy in the days of a unitary Empire with undivided responsibility and undistributed control by a central Executive and a central Parliament. But it was a policy which was at once overwhelmed and overborne by the pressure of political events. And the function of the 1929 Conference was to make the law square with the events which had subverted it.

But let me advert to an aspect of this question which the House should not lose sight of. When I say that the policy of what I must call for purposes of historical accuracy the Imperial Government was to confine the jurisdiction of the colonial assemblies to their own confines, and that that policy was broken by events, and that the purpose of this clause is to make the law square with the new political facts, I do not mean that the object or effect of this statute is, or will be, to write a new legal Constitution for the Commonwealth of Nations. Let there be no mistake about that. This clause illustrates very clearly the declaratory character of the whole statute. The House will observe that the clause is cast in a form which assumes the existence of the extra-territorial power at the present time. This statute will confer no new legal powers so far as the Irish Free State is concerned. It merely declares the pre-existence of the other States of the Commonwealth. It is a direction; a definition, and a demonstration and proof in the most solemn form possible by the British Parliament that an entirely new situation has come into existence and that the former legal unitary State has gone the way of the former political unitary State and of the former diplomatic unitary State so far as States like Canada and ourselves are concerned.

A Deputy last year asked what interest we had in these things. He acknowledged that, so far as, say, Canada and South Africa were concerned, these clauses had a significance having regard to the historical background—the legal background—on which, so far as those countries were concerned, these events were going forward. That is precisely what I meant a moment ago when I said that you cannot approach the consideration of this subject as if it had no history, no genesis, no development and no background of that kind. It had such a background, and if it because it had, that this statutory method, so far as those countries are concerned, was regarded as desirable and necessary. I must tell the House that the question of method was discussed and explored.

How was the whole story to be ended? Should it be ended by Agreement? Or should it be done by Statute? Or should it be done by a record in a report? Those States, like Canada and South Africa, where the territorial limitation was imposed and recognised, where the Colonial Laws Validity Act applied, where the legislation of the British Parliament extending to them was frequent and far-reaching—those countries were not satisfied with a record in a report—a report without legal authority or significance or force. They wanted something more, something to end a legal situation in a legal way. Should it be an Agreement? That method also was discussed and I will tell the House why, so far as we are concerned, it was undesirable. It was undesirable because we were unwilling to suggest in any way that the territorial limitation applied to the Irish Free State, or that the Colonial Laws Validity Act applied to the Irish Free State and so on, and we felt that a certain type of Agreement would imply the previous application to us of those doctrines and those laws; and that it was by virtue of the Agreement that they ceased to apply. But we take the view—an uncontroverted view—that those doctrines and those laws did not survive to us as a result of the Treaty of 1921, and we were, therefore, unwilling to have them dealt with, so far as we were concerned, in that way.

We came to the third method—the Statute. I think Deputies will agree that that was the correct method for those members of the Commonwealth to which I have been referring. Will the House not recollect that when the Statute of 1779 was passed enacting that the British Parliament had no right to govern the North American colonies, it was passed in the form "be it declared and enacted" used in this text? And will any Deputy say that that Statute has not marked the termination of British rule in that part of the world? And has that Statue ever been quoted as part of the Constitution of the State which succeeded those colonies on that continent?

That, then, is the position. I do not propose to delay longer on that aspect of the matter. I think that it will be agreed that the statutory method was the best in the circumstances in which other members of the Commonwealth found themselves, and which go to the root of this whole question.

Deputy O'Connell last year raised the definition of the word "Dominion." He asked why it was expressed to include the Irish Free State; why, if all those rights and powers referred to in these clauses were already inherent in our status under the Treaty, it was necessary to include us in the definition of the word "Dominion" at all. I hope the Deputy did not mean that by the inclusion of the Irish Free State in that definition the rights and powers referred to were for that reason and by virtue of that definition being conferred upon the Irish Free State by this Statute. That, as the Deputy must know, is not the case. He must not deduce a conclusion so fundamental—and so fundamentally wrong— from the insertion in these clauses of what is no more than a rule of interpretation.

We in our own statutes have frequently to refer to the United Kingdom. We have to define the expression "United Kingdom." We will frequently in future have to refer to the States of the Commonwealth generally, including the United Kingdom, and we will have to define the expression "States of the Commonwealth" also. The British Parliament in their Act, and this statute will be theirs purely and simply, need to define the word in which they propose to refer in future statutes to the States of the Commonwealth. No constitutional doctrine whatever follows from, or is created, or assumed by that definition. It is an interpretation clause merely. If I have made that point clear I wish, before passing to the clause on the Colonial Laws Validity Act, to make one other observation, and it is this. The power of this Parliament to pass laws having extra-territorial operation has nowhere been denied, because it is undeniable. The matter has not come on a direct issue before our own courts, but in the only case in which it has fallen to be judicially considered the following language was used by Judge Fitzgibbon: "I am not prepared to hold that legislation in this country making it a crime for persons to conspire against the peace, order, and good government of this country, or to defraud our customs, or to violate our laws necessarily invalid because of the secondary opinion in McLeod's case, nor that our courts would not have full jurisdiction to deal with such offenders if they should happen to come within the limits of the Saorstát." (Alexander v. Circuit Court Judge of Cork, 1925, 2 I.R., p. 170). I refer to this dictum-a dictum which is significant although "obiter"—for one purpose only, namely, to show that the form of this clause was advisedly declaratory, advisedly drawn in words which assume the existence at the present time of the powers to which it relates so far as the Irish Free State is concerned.

On the matter of the Colonial Laws Validity Act, Deputies will observe that the repeal of this statute is absolute and unconditional in respect of those members of the Commonwealth to which it was held to apply. It may be asked why the Act was not repealed in words such as these: "The Colonial Laws Validity Act, 1865, shall be and is hereby repealed"; but it will be borne in mind that the Act is to remain so far as the colonies and dependencies are concerned, and the proper form to adopt was the form found in this clause. There is a clean-cut repeal so far as the members of the Commonwealth to which I have referred were affected by the Act at any time.

There follows the declaration contained in sub-clause (2). The House will at once observe the effect and the object of that sub-clause. The first sub-clause would have been sufficient. But the whole policy of this method of ending the former legal position called for something more; it called for a declaration in the contrary sense of the principle to be abolished. That principle was taken and the direct negative—in the very words of the Colonial Laws Validity Act itself— was set up as the principle of the new position. The Conference was dealing with something more than an Act of Parliament. It was dealing as the terms of reference show with something more than the principle embodied in that Act; it was dealing with the principle underlying it as well. In one enactment it destroyed the Act itself and the legal principle it embodied; in the other it asserted a contrary principle which bore down upon the principle that lay at the very foundation of the statute repealed, namely, the principle of the super-sovereignty of British legislation generally. The whole notion of "legislation repugnant to British legislation" disappears from Canadian or South African jurisprudence. In ten years' time Canadian or South African law yers whose eyes have been trained to look for some lurking and obscure inconsistency between Canadian or South African statutes and British. Acts of Parliament extending to Canada or South Africa will not know or care—except in the sense in which they know and care what laws are made in the United States or the Netherlands or in the States of the Commonwealth or of the world generally—what law runs in the United Kingdom.

I have already dealt with the clause set out in paragraph 3 of page 20. It is reprinted there from page 18. The clause set out in paragraph 4 does not relate in any way to the Irish Free State. The definition clause contained in paragraph 5 I have explained to the House. And that contained in paragraph 6 is a special subject matter to which I will refer in a moment. The clause set out in paragraph 7 is special to New Zealand.

We come then to the recitals to be inserted in the proposed legislation. The first recital relates to the non-application of future statutes of the British Parliament to the States of the Commonwealth. I want the House to look again in this connection at paragraph 55 of the Report of 1929. "Practical considerations," it says, "affecting both the drafting of Bills and the interpretation of statutes make it desirable that this principle should also be expressed in the enacting part of the Act." That is another way of putting the point which I have been endeavouring to emphasise all through. A recital would have been sufficient in so far as we were concerned. But you had the other States of the Commonwealth with a long tradition of British legislation operating in their territory. Those States wanted a legal termination of that situation. They wanted something more than a recital in the statute—which had to be passed anyway to repeal the Colonial Laws Validity Act, e.g., they wanted an actual enactment. I think that Deputies will agree that having regard to the legal background of the whole matter in Canada or Australia this was the proper course for those States to adopt.

The second recital is that relating to the Crown. I stated to the House last year the reason for this particular recital. But I should like to restate it in a very few words. The legal ties that bound, say, Canada and Australia to the United Kingdom will disappear when this Act becomes law. The legal restrictions upon the powers of the Parliament of Canada and the Parliament of Australia will be removed. There will be no limitation, no restriction whatever.

The House will notice that that fact is repeated in various ways through the Report of 1929. The frequency of the phrase "the new position" is not accidental; it is deliberate. There is the ending of a chapter, an epoch— a history in which the legal and legislative predominance of the United Kingdom Parliament is plain to be seen. But "by the removal of all restrictions upon the legislative powers of the Parliaments of the Dominions," says paragraph 58 of the Report of 1929—"and the consequent effective recognition of the equality of those Parliaments with the Parliament of the United Kingdom, the law will be brought into harmony with the root principle of equality governing the free associations of the members of the British Commonwealth of Nations." The House will notice the emphasis throughout upon what is being done. The law, the legal position, is being made to square with the central and predominant political fact of absolute freedom and unequivocal co-equality. And in the light of that conception of the matter the recital relating to the Crown is inserted. The States of the Commonwealth control the Crown and the prerogatives of the Crown absolutely. But the Crown function is accepted in the arrangement to which we have become parties. You could not, therefore, have a series of Acts of Parliament throughout the Commonwealth dealing with, say, the succession in different ways. That would be undesirable. The function of the Crown may be exercised in a different way here from that in which it is exercised in Canada; that is a matter of the substance and form of the advice given here and that given in Canada. You could legislate for the Crown, here in a way different from that in which it is legislated for in the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom might, e.g., restrict a certain royal prerogative by statute. The Oireachtas might abolish the same prerogative so far as the Irish Free State is concerned. There is no doubt whatever about that. But there had, in the nature of things, to be some arrangement to prevent the whole association from being confused within itself by conflicting legislation as to such a matter as the succession. The association is a free association. Freely, therefore, the members of it undertook this arrangement relating to the Crown which is the symbol of the free association of them all.

I do not fear that the House will deduce from this arrangement any doubts as to the several capacities of the King, or draw any erroneous conclusion to the effect that the States of the Commonwealth are a political or diplomatic unit. When a Heads of States Treaty is ratified by the King on the advice of the Government of the Irish Free State the whole transaction is the transaction of the Irish Free State. The King acting on the advice of the British Government can no more contract for the Irish Free State than can the King of Italy or the Mikado of Japan. The conclusion of the Treaty in the Heads of States form is merely an old-established international usage. In its binding force it differs in no way whatever as a matter of international law from an inter-governmental agreement. But what I want to emphasise is the fact that no argument whatever is open on the agreement as to the King to the effect that for diplomatic purposes, or political purposes or purposes of international life and action the Commonwealth of Nations is a single entity. When we agreed to this recital in the form in which it appears, the form which says that "the Crown is the symbol of the free association of the members of the British Commonwealth of Nations" and went on to say that "any alteration in the law touching" the matters referred to in this context would require the assent of all the Parliaments of the Commonwealth, we were simply stating that in the exercise of our sovereign legislative powers which exist apart from and over and above all other considerations, which are supreme, paramount and uncontrolled we would have regard to the desirability for uniformity of reference to the symbol of the Association and the desirability for avoidance of legal confusion in regard to the succession. That is the extent of the meaning of this recital. It assumes the absolute inherent right of each of the Parliaments to legislate for the Crown without regard to these considerations.

In the matter of Merchant Shipping you had a legal situation to deal with, so far as the States of the Commonwealth were concerned, in which the restrictive provisions of the Merchant Shipping Acts and the Colonial Courts of Admiralty Act, 1890, were in force. You had to get rid of those provisions in a recognised legal way, by enacting that they ceased to apply. I examined the effect of the clause relating to merchant shipping legislation last year. I then stated my views on the Report of the 1929 Conference in this particular. I do not propose to reiterate those views now, except to say that shipping regulations are obviously matters upon which general uniformity is desirable, consistent with national interests and requirements. The House is aware that shipping regulations tend more and more to be governed by international conventions. You have the eight international labour Conventions, dealing with a number of matters which it is not necessary to go into in any detail now. You have the Convention on regulations relating to safety of life at sea signed in 1929; you have again the Convention respecting Load Lines signed at London on the 5th July, 1930. More and more there is an approach to international standardisation in regard to the regulation of matters relating to the protection of life and property borne in ships upon the oceans of the world. Where that is so, where there is such an approach and progress is made at international discussions on matters of that kind we will come into the international arrangements made. Meantime, certain standards have been laid down under the law heretofore passed for the whole Commonwealth and these will be preserved. They will be preserved not by virtue of the Consolidation Act of 1894 and the Acts amending it, but by our own laws, the provisions of which will conform in so far as conformity is agreed to be desirable to the provisions of the "Agreement as to British Commonwealth Merchant Shipping." That Agreement will not itself be ratified by statute here or in Great Britain or elsewhere. It will remain as a standard to which the various statutes on this subject will conform in so far as it states the matters on which uniformity is desirable.

On the matter of Nationality the Report affirms paragraphs 73 to 78 inclusive, of the Report of 1929. It says that "it is for each member of the Commonwealth to define for itself its own nationals." The law of each Nation of the Commonwealth will henceforth confer a status on its nationals which will be recognised throughout the Commonwealth and outside the Commonwealth. Paragraph (4) on page 20 says that "the possession of the common status in virtue of the law for the time being in force in any part of the Commonwealth should carry with it the recognition of that status by the law of every other part of the Commonwealth." In other words our law will confer the status and the law of Canada and South Africa, etc., will recognise the status thus conferred. Similarly our law will recognise the status conferred by the Canadian or the South African statute. This arrangement is based upon two things: the separate and distinct nationhood of this country from Great Britain, of Canada from New Zealand, etc., and the desirability for mutual recognition of the status of the nationals of the various countries of the Commonwealth. The essential point is that you have not a single Commonwealth nationality based upon a single law. It is not a single Commonwealth nationality at all, or even a dual nationality. The Irish Free State national will be that and nothing else so far as his nationality is concerned. His own nationality law will rule him and his own State, through its representatives abroad, will protect him. The treaty benefits of our treaties with other countries will accrue to him by virtue of his Irish nationality. And the recognition of his Irish nationality will be Commonwealth-wide and world-wide.

The short paragraph on the subject of nationality of married women needs no elaboration.

The trend and direction of the general argument contained in the Report of 1929 and this Part of this Report has already arrested the attention of those international publicists and lawyers who have made the evolution of the new world system of State relationships their special study. The significance of this Report will not, therefore, I am sure, elude the notice of this House. When we came into existence as a separate State in 1921 the new system of State relationships under the aegis of the League was hardly two years old. We came into it during its formative period. The Nations of the Commonwealth who sat at the Peace Table in 1919 were beginning their international life. The founders of the Irish Free State were quick to see the course of world events and the inevitableness of the developments which were to make Canada and South Africa and the others co-sharers in the international destiny of the post-war States of the world. The very method chosen for the creation of this State was the international method of a bilateral treaty. If we came into existence untrammelled and unimpeded by so many of those legal forms and anachronistic practices which remained to Canada and South Africa and so on, nevertheless, these things had by reason of their different origins and history survived to those States with whom we had entered into relationships and we accordingly played our part in removing them. The Principles laid down in 1926—or rather formulated in that year—were applied with ruthless logic to the whole field of inter-State relationships within the Commonwealth. And this Part V1 of this Report shows where the cables strained and where, by force of the political facts and the pull of international events, they smashed right through.

I want to add a personal word as to the pride I have in being associated with the later stages of this Report, because I regard this Report as being the end now achieved to the work which the then Vice-President of this State (the late Mr. Kevin O'Higgins) started in 1926. And I want to confess to a great happiness at having been allowed to be associated with the end of the work which he started so well in that period.

There was one big task before the delegates who went to the conference in 1926. They laid down certain lines. The principles were accepted. They were even accepted as having for some time previously ruled the existence of the States of the Commonwealth, but it was declared that certain laws were still not in harmony with the particular facts, and certain laws were passed over to what was described as a committee of experts in 1920 to decide upon, and their report showed that the law should be brought into harmony with the facts. We who were not experts, but who, as representatives of the Governments of the different parts of the Commonwealth, met together and agreed that the principles of 1926 should be applied right down even to the very small pieces of legislation that were caught up by the conference of 1929, and this Report, when it is carried further by statute for these countries that want it carried further, will have at last, as I said in the beginning, brought to an end the whole chapter of the single legislative sovereignty and the central Government of the old Empire.

We had one purpose in 1926, and that was that there must be uprooted from the whole system of this State the British Government; and in substitution for that there was accepted the British Monarch. He is a King who functions entirely, so far as Irish affairs are concerned, at the will of the Irish Government, and that was the summing up of the whole aim and the whole result of the conferences of 1926, 1929 and 1930: that one had to get completely rid of any power, either actual or feared, that the British Government had in relation to this country. In substitution for that under the Treaty there was accepted the monarchy, as I say, a monarchy in every respect in relation to Irish affairs, subject to the control of an Irish Government. That is the result of the 1926, 1929 and 1930 conferences. For these reasons, and because that is the result aimed at, and the result achieved, I ask the House to pass the resolution that is before it.

The Minister speaks of his pride in being associated with the work inaugurated by the late Vice-President of the Free State at the British Imperial Conference of 1926. He speaks, I presume also with pride, of this Report as ending an epoch, an epoch, I suppose, in the history of the Free State as well as in the history of what is now called the British Commonwealth of Nations, formerly known and still known in some places, as the British Empire. The Minister, as I said, in discussing the 1929 Report last year, looked at this whole matter from an entirely different standpoint from that from which we envisaged it. He may see pride in his work and in the work that he states he has accomplished of associating us, as far as he can do, by the free will of this State, more closely with the British Empire. We definitely see no pride in that.

As the Minister said, consideration of this Report cannot be approached without taking into consideration the history surrounding it, and the history of this Report in so far as it has a history might be said to begin with what the Minister of the Free State generally call the Treaty of 1921. These Articles of Agreement for a Treaty gave to Ireland Dominion status. It says, in the first paragraph: "Ireland shall have the same constitutional status in the Community of Nations known as the British Empire as the Dominion of Canada, the Commonwealth of Australia, the Dominion of New Zealand, and the Union of South Africa," and so on.

We have, as I have already said, no pride in that status and, therefore, no pride whatsoever is being associated, so far as we are obliged to be associated in any way, with the work of the present Minister for External Affairs, or his predecessor, who attended the Imperial Conferences at different times as representing this Free State. We felt, and feel still, that Dominion status was a derogation of the dignity of this ancient nation. We objected to it as such and did our utmost to prevent its acceptance by the Irish people. Since the Free State got control—I was going to say of this country—of the twenty-six counties of Ireland, it has done everything in its power to confirm and make more binding this objectionable status, this Dominion status that the Minister takes such pride in. Those of us whose memories go back to the debates on that Treaty, and those who were not so closely associated but who remember the discussion, will remember that those gentlemen, some of them dead and gone, who were, I might say, primarily responsible for imposing the Dominion status on Ireland, those who might be called the fathers of the Free State, promised—I do not think it will be denied that they promised—that the political power, such as it was, that was given to Ireland with the acceptance of the Treaty, would be used to work for the complete independence of all Ireland. I do not think it will be denied that some of the most prominent of those leaders declared that the Treaty would be used as a stepping-stone towards complete independence and towards the restoration of the Republic as the symbol of that independence.

The Free State Government, as we know it now, and since 1922, has repudiated the Republic and has repudiated the fathers of the Irish Free State itself. Instead of carrying out the promise made by these founders of the Free State to use their power for the final liberation of the country, as a whole, they have used their power to fasten for ever upon us, in so far as they can do so, this Dominion status. They have worked with all their might to bind us more closely to the British Empire, politically, economically and financially. If this Report, and the principles and recommendations it contains, be approved of here now by this House, the policy of fastening Dominion status upon us will have been carried a step further. The aim of those responsible for this Report, as I think is clearly demonstrated by the Minister again in the statement that he has made in introducing this Report, and even in the pride that he says he takes in the decisions arrived at by these conferences, and particularly this last conference, is, as I say, to nail us, to copper-fasten us, for ever to the British Empire and its King. In so far as it attempts to do this we on these benches repudiate it as Irish Nationalists and Irish Republicans. We adhere to the traditional and inalienable rights of the old Irish nation, the old nation of 32, and not 26, counties. We repudiate the principles of this Report also because, along with Dominion status within the British Empire which it imposes upon us, it recognises and confirms the partition of our country. We promise to do our utmost, by whatever means may in the future be available to us, to undo the new chains that are in this way being forged to bind us to the British Empire. We stand for the unity and independence of the country, for the restoration of the Republic, and, as suitable opportunities arise and as, and when the power to do so is given us, we will do all we can to restore Ireland's proper national status and to undo the work of those who, in the last ten years have, in my opinion, degraded and partitioned Ireland, bound her to Britain and forced her into the British Empire.

The Minister referred to paragraphs in this Report, to paragraph 3, wherein it is stated:—

"No Act of Parliament of the United Kingdom passed after the commencement of this Act shall extend or be deemed to extend to a Dominion as part of the law enforced in that Dominion unless it is expressly declared in that Act that that Dominion has requested, and consented to, the enactment thereof."

Again, paragraph 7, which is a recital intended to be inserted in the proposed legislation which will be passed in the British Parliament, says:—

"And whereas it is in accord with the established constitutional position that no law hereafter made by the Parliament of the United Kingdom shall extend to any of the Dominions as part of the law in force in that Dominion otherwise than at the request and with the consent of that Dominion."

The Minister took pains to impress upon us that by the adoption of these agreements, the proposed resolutions that were agreed to by the Imperial Conference and by the agreement to that recital which we are told will be passed into law by the British Government, that that ended in a legal way the right of Britain to pass laws for this Free State. But it strikes me that while these paragraphs purport to affirm the legislative independence of the Free State they seem to me, in reality, to be a recognition of the hegemony of Britain in the Commonwealth. That is the impression it makes upon me, that while the Free State and other colonies or Dominions associated with the British Commonwealth, are to pass resolutions to this effect that it is agreed that Britain is to pass a statute law and in that way there is, to my mind at any rate, what is tanta mount to a recognition of hegemony, a recognition of the inferior status of the Free State and other Dominions vis a vis the Imperial Parliament. The Minister, I know, has his view and stressed his view on that matter and his view does not agree with mine; but my view is not his, and I am satisfied in my own mind, at any rate, that there is a recognition of the superiority of the British there, whatever the Minister may say to the contrary. In paragraph 2, page 21, there is a further recital set out which we are told is to be inserted in a statute to be passed in the British Imperial Parliament. It is as follows:—

"And whereas it is meet and proper to set out by way of preamble to this Act, that inasmuch as the Crown is the symbol of the free association of the Members of the British Commonwealth of Nations, and as they are united by a common allegiance to the Crown, it would be in accord with the established constitutional position of all the Members of the Commonwealth in relation to one another that any alteration in the law touching the Succession to the Throne or the Royal Style and Titles shall hereafter require the assent as well of the Parliaments of all the Dominions as of the Parliament of the United Kingdom."

That paragraph starts with the assumption that there is a free association of the members of the British Commonwealth of Nations. I am not concerned with Canada, South Africa or Australia, or with any of the other States or Dominions associated with, or joined in, this Commonwealth. But certainly I do repudiate the suggestion that is contained in that recital in so far as it maintains that there is free association of this State, even without going further, with the other members of the British Commonwealth. Some may have forgotten the fact which was stressed and agreed to by those who were chiefly concerned, as I said earlier, who were primarily responsible for forcing this Dominion status on us. That is the recognition of the fact that this association with the British Empire was not a free or willing association. Those who signed the document by which this Dominion status was adopted here, or certain of them, publicly declared that they signed that document under a threat of war. They signed it, they said, in public, because they were obliged to, because they were told that if they did not sign it the Black and Tans that England had in Ireland would be sent back to the awful atrocities they were committing in the country before the Truce period.

If there was no other evidence of unwilling association these declarations are sufficient to show that acceptance of that preamble as it stands and acceptance of the declaration of free association would be, in my opinion at any rate, acceptance of a lie. There is no free association so far as we are concerned, at any rate, with the other members of the British Commonwealth. There is no freedom for Ireland and even for the part of Ireland that we are concerned with politically in so far as this status is concerned, or so far as association with the British Empire is concerned.

In the same paragraph he talks or common allegiance to the Crown, of free association of the members of the British Commonwealth of Nations as they are united by a common allegiance with the Crown. We owe no allegiance to the British Empire and we give none. The Minister was not, so far as I am aware, associated with the Republican movement officially. If he was a worker in any way in that movement I do not want to take away any credit that may be coming to him. I do not suggest that, but so far as I know, publicly he was not associated with it and perhaps he would not have the same feelings on this matter that others have. His colleague on the bench beside him now was associated with that movement, and if anybody had suggested to him a few months before that Treaty was signed, that he would ever in the remotest years of his life be found accepting membership in the British Empire and giving allegiance to the British Crown his wrath would be worth witnessing. Deputy Batt O'Connor would, I am sure, in those days have been very loud voiced in denunciation of anybody that would suggest that he would ever be a loyal son of the English King. I mention these two just to mark the difference that there is between those who stand for this Report and the principles embodies in it and those who stand for our position. We have not changed since the days of 1921. Others have. We owe no allegiance to the British Crown or King and we will give none. I hope those who adopted that position in 1921 and have since foresworn their allegiance to the Republic will reconsider their position. This paragraph again is interested in and seeks to interest us in succession to the Crown of England and matters relating to the Royal Style and Title. We are not interested in these matters. In so far as we can get rid of allegiance to the British Crown, we would like to do so and we intend——

May I ask Deputy O'Kelly a question?

Certainly.

Did Deputy O'Kelly take the oath that every other Deputy took when entering this House?

I took no oath—none whatever. I intend to take no oath to any authority that recognises the British Crown. On that, let us be clear. If and when any power comes to us, Republicans, we intend to see that nobody, not even Deputy Collins-O'Driscoll, will be asked to take an oath of that kind.

By inference the Deputy has admitted now that the Oath is there.

I have not.

By saying that I would not be asked to take the Oath the Deputy admits the Oath is there, and that everybody who entered this House signed it.

Deputy O'Kelly is not a Minister and, therefore, Deputy Collins-O'Driscoll can interrupt him without fear of reprimand from the Chair.

When a Deputy who is speaking gives way to another Deputy, it is quite in order. After four years in this House Deputy Lemass ought to know that.

I am glad that Deputy Collins-O'Driscoll interrupted me. It gave me an opportunity of referring to that matter. In case it is forgotten, I am very happy to say that no member of this Party took that Oath, not one individual who went into that office but announced beforehand that he took no Oath and intended to take none.

Did the Deputy sign a paper containing the terms of the Oath?

[An Ceann Comhairle resumed the Chair.]

The King of England is imposed upon us in this agreement. It is not a matter on which we have any freedom to declare our will. It is accepted by the Minister in the name of the Free State that the King is part and parcel of the Free State Constitution. We are not asked whether we want that or not. He is accepting him. It is understood that he is there, that we cannot get rid of him, and that we must be interested in his style and title. That is the established constitutional position and, so far as I know, the Minister did nothing to enable us to get rid of the King. He is satisfied with the King, and I presume that he is acting for his colleagues in the Ministry and for his Party, who want the King. Let them have him. They are welcome to him. We want none of him. We are no Colony of England. We are no Dominion of England—so far as we can help it. What interests have we in common with Australia, Canada, New Zealand or South Africa? Considered economically, some of them are our greatest competitors in the produce market. Our interests—speaking not at all politically—are very far apart from those of those Dominions or Colonies with which we have co-equal status. We have very little common interest with any of them. It would probably be better for us economically to be dissociated from them and to be as far apart from them as possible. There is one matter to which I would again refer in this connection. On page 15, and again on page 18 of this Report there are certain declarations. On page 15 there is the following:

Message to their Majesties the King and Queen—As the first official act of the Conference a message of greeting to their Majesties the King and Queen was moved by the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, seconded by the Prime Minister of South Africa and passed unanimously by the Conference. The message was in the following terms: "The Prime Ministers and other representatives of the Governments of the British Commonwealth assembled in conference at their first meeting and as their first official act desire to present their respectful duty to the King.

They join in thankfulness for your Majesty's restoration to health and earnestly hope that your Majesty and Her Majesty—

they forgot about all the little majesties—

may be spared for many years to inspire the feelings of love and affection which unite all the peoples of the British Commonwealth of Nations under the Crown.

What hogwash! They are the people who are supposed to represent this ancient nation of Ireland. I wonder did the Minister wear the black silk knee-breeches that Mr. President Cosgrave had to wear on one occasion, when presenting this resolution to His Majesty and Her Majesty and all the little majesties at Buckingham Palace. What an indignity for this nation to be associated with rubbish of that kind! What allegiance do we owe to the British Monarch or his family? What have they ever done for us? It is good enough if we do not keep, as I hope as a Christian people we do not keep, bitter hate in our hearts for those responsible for what they were responsible for even in recent times in this country. And then we are told the Minister of the Free State acted in the name of decent Irish people, decent Irish Catholic people, and was very much concerned in presenting his respectful duty to the King, joining in thankfulness for His Majesty's return to health and earnestly hoping that His Majesty and Her Majesty may be spared for many years to inspire the feelings of love and affection which unite all the peoples of the British Commonwealth of Nations under the Crown. Did anybody ever hear anything more ludicrous—to say that the people of Ireland are one bit concerned as to how long or in what way these people rule their own people? Is there any greater lie the Minister could tell than that we are inspired by feelings of love and affection in this regard? Love and affection for what? Is it love and affection for the Black-and-Tans? Is that what inspired Mr. Minister McGilligan to present his dutiful respects to His Majesty in our name?

He was not serious.

Perhaps he spoke with his tongue in his cheek. It would not be the first time and I am sure it will not be the last. Let us look at page 80:—

The following Address to His Majesty was moved by the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom at the concluding meeting of the Conference, seconded by the Prime Minister of Canada and unanimously adopted.

Mr. Ramsay MacDonald, as Chairman of the Conference, was asked to submit the Address to His Majesty:—"To His Majesty the King, Emperor of India." Emperor of India is worthy of notice in view of present conditions. The Address reads: "We, the Prime Ministers and Representatives of the Governments of the British Commonwealth of Nations, who have been assembled during the past few weeks, desire, at the conclusion of the Conference, again to present our respectful duty to Your Majesty. We pray that under Divine Providence Your Majesty and Her Majesty the Queen may long be given health and strength...." I have no objection to them having all the strength and health that they want and that God may give them as far as their individual persons are concerned. It is no concern of mine. What I object to is what follows: "to preside over the destinies of all the nations of the Commonwealth, and that the assurance of the devotion and affection of your peoples may support you in this great task."

We repudiate any right in the Minister to speak for us, and certainly to speak for us so far as we represent and can speak for the vast majority of the people of Ireland. We are not concerned to preserve the authority of the British King over this country. We are concerned more to get rid of it so that our people may be able to live in prosperity in the country, a thing which the British King or Queen or Princes will never help them to do. I think I have said enough about the lying statements, for lying I believe they are—to which the Minister added his name in the name of this Irish Free State, this partitioned part of Ireland. Probably the Minister believed that 90 per cent. of the people would never hear of that, that they would never bother their heads about it, and that even if they did they would realise that he was not sincere. That would be the excuse that would be offered by many of the gentlemen on the benches opposite. They would say, "Oh, what harm was it to send to the King a declaration of that kind? Were not the others signing? We know very well that the Minister spoke with his tongue in his cheek." On matters of that kind we on this side do not intend to speak with our tongues in our cheeks. It is not our habit to do so. We intend to be honest and straight. We do not intend that anyone should have any misunderstanding of our position on that matter.

This Report, in so far as it can do so, endeavours to bind us more closely to the British Empire and more closely in love and affection, as the Minister would put it, to the British King and the British Throne, to the Queen and, I suppose, to the Princes as well. I will put them all in. We have no idea of allowing ourselves to be associated with that work which is the very antithesis of the work that we should be doing for Ireland. This Report excludes in every way the idea of a sovereign Republic and of complete Irish independence. Everything that could be done to block progress along that road, the road towards complete independence and the unity of Ireland, everything that could be done to block that road is being done by the Minister in this Report. He is binding us as fast as he can to the British Empire. He is repudiating all those who, down through the history of Ireland, stood for complete independence for our nation and our people. Instead of approving of this Report, we stand by those who adhere to the principle enunciated by Parnell. Speaking in Cork in 1885, he said: "No man has the right to say to his country `Thus far shalt thou go and no further.' We have never attempted to fix the ne plus ultra to the progress of Ireland a nation and we never shall." Those are Parnell's words, and they express our attitude. We are out not to put any obstacle in the path of Ireland's progress towards complete independence. On the contrary, we are out to do everything we can to open that road and to encourage people to march towards complete freedom and independence for all Ireland, the old Irish Nation that for the moment we have not the right to speak. We intend to do everything that we can to encourage people to walk on that road, and anybody who seeks, as the Minister has done, by proposing the adoption of this Report, to put obstacles in the way we intend to oppose.

Deputy O'Kelly in his opening statement said that whilst listening to the Report read by the Minister he got certain impressions. I would say that after listening to the Deputy speak I also got certain impressions. Certain memories came back to me. The Deputy went over a good deal of ancient ground. He spoke of the Treaty and mentioned stepping stones. He referred to me personally. I would like to remind the Deputy and those who sit beside him of the days in which they were discussing that same Treaty when one of their great leaders said: "Why not make the King Managing Director?" What about that day?

The man who made that statement is not here to answer and the Deputy knows that well.

And the leader, Deputy de Valera, said that he would be inclined to pay the King a yearly tribute. I would also like to remind Deputy de Valera, who has interrupted me, that he stood out for what he called external association. Well, if the Treaty is not external association, and if the document read by the Minister is not external association and is not equally as good as Document No. 2 I am surprised. Of course the people across the floor are a hundred per cent. patriots. We have let down the Republic and they have kept it up. They referred to partition and so on. The Treaty was a Treaty made for the whole of the Thirty-two Counties with the right of Six Counties to opt out. There was the statement always made that Northern Ireland would not be coerced. I am only going over this ground, sir, because it was mentioned when you were not in the Chair and perhaps you do not know.

I am only making a short reply to Deputy O'Kelly because he has mentioned my name. He said he got certain impressions from the Minister's speech and I just stood up to give him my impressions of his speech. Of course Deputy O'Kelly can belittle the Treaty position now. But the Treaty has allowed the Deputy to stick his chest out and to be a brave man now and to say he stands up for the Republic. Batt O'Connor was quite willing and helped to accept the Truce when it came. He did not raise his voice when the Plenipotentiaries were going across to negotiate the Treaty and did not insist that they would go there and negotiate for a Republic and nothing else.

Batt O'Connor also preferred to observe the Truce in 1916.

He did, indeed.

I thought that Deputy Lemass had set his face definitely against interruptions.

I could not resist the temptation.

I think the Treaty position is all right. Many of our people were in such a hurry in the early days against accepting it that they could not wait to see what the Treaty would give them, and to see what the country got in the Treaty. At that time when I asked some of my greatest opponents now what their objection was to the Treaty, they replied that the Governor-General would be an English Lord and they also told me that the Curragh of Kildare, the greatest training ground for the British Army, would never be handed over to us.

It was handed over a couple of weeks ago.

They would not have the patience to wait to see what the Treaty was conferring on this country. They, at once, jumped to the conclusion that the Governor-General would be an Englishman and that they would never get over the Curragh of Kildare.

We have it now.

I never interrupt whilst the Deputies across the floor are addressing the House. But we all know the temperament of the Fianna Fáil Party now, and whenever anybody from this side of the House gets up to speak the policy of that Party is to shout him down. But as far as Batt O'Connor is concerned he does not mind or fear that sort of thing. But Deputy O'Kelly set me thinking when I heard him speak so bravely for the Republic and when he told us how he, at least, had always stood up for it, and how he was unlike us, and that he would not lower the flag. But Deputy O'Kelly was not here when the flag was lowered, and when we had to accept the Truce. The Deputy was not then in Ireland. He was sheltering in one of the grand hotels in Paris or Rome and we had to do the best we could here.

I say this, however, that it is making little of the fight that we put up to make little of the Treaty position. Had we more forces at our command, perhaps the Treaty settlement would have been better. We had to accept the best settlement we could get. In the words of the leader of the Opposition, we were in the position of the man with the cow for sale, and we made the best bargain we could. But I warn the Deputy that in making little of the Treaty position he is making little of the fight which the men put up here, because if there had been more force at our command we might not have accepted the Truce. Had we enough fighting men and munitions here we could have gone on and hurled the English into the sea. But all that time Deputy O'Kelly was not here fighting by our side. He was safe in Paris or Rome; we had to accept the Truce and do the best we could for the country. I consider it is not helpful to be going back on the past.

I consider that the report of the Imperial Conference put before us here this evening by the Minister is all right. And I think it is something that we should be all proud of. We should forget the disputes about the past and try and strengthen the position we now hold. If we do that the future of this country is bright. Deputy O'Kelly has referred to stepping-stones. I tell him that as great a man as he used those very words, and Deputy O'Kelly knows it, I am sure. It is hardly fair to the Deputies to be going back on those things and referring to those matters. All that matters now is the future of our country. Things are going on all right. But at times it is hard to have patience when we hear Deputies from the Fianna Fáil Benches flinging across the floor that we are not as good Irishmen as they are, and proclaiming that they are 100 per cent. Republicans whilst we are Imperialists.

Since I came into this House I never heard such a lot of tripe as the speech just delivered by Deputy O'Kelly. Unfortunately it is in my opinion a most damaging speech from the point of view of the best interests of this country. We have heard this speech at a time when the people of the country are anxiously waiting to see the ports of Great Britain that have been closed for a few weeks open to our live stock. I say that the speech of Deputy O'Kelly will not in any way help to open these ports sooner than they would otherwise have been opened. I protest in the interests of ninety per cent. of the people of this country in the strongest possible manner against speeches like that of Deputy O'Kelly's, the only effect of which will be, obviously, to injure the interests of this country. People who have their cattle, sheep, pigs, butter, eggs and bacon to sell to the country of which we have heard such vile abuse here from Deputy O'Kelly this evening will have nothing for which to thank the Deputy.

I would like to ask Deputy Shaw if that is what the Minister for Local Government and Public Health told him to say?

The Minister for Local Government and Public Health did not tell me to say anything. I am well able to speak for myself here without instructions from anybody.

The chief matters of interest in this Report are the recommendations made arising out of the Report of the Conference on the Operation of Dominion legislation of 1929. Deputies will remember that in 1926 the first meeting of the Imperial Conference took place. It was attended in state by Free State Ministers and it was for the purpose of considering the constitutional status of the Dominions and their relationship with the British Parliament. The Report of that Imperial Conference declared in relation to the United Kingdom and Dominions that "they are autonomous communities within the British Empire, equal in status, in no way subordinate one to another in any respect of their domestic or external affairs though united by a common allegiance to the Crown and freely associated as members of the British Commonwealth of Nations." The members of that Conference, including the Free State delegates, having produced that formula, sat back to consider it and in their consideration were forced to recognise that there were many aspects of the existing relationship between the Dominions and Great Britain and between the Dominions and one another which did not conform to that definition at all.

The whole purpose of the Bill which is to be passed by the British Parliament this year, the whole purpose of the resolution which is before us and the whole purpose of the 1929 Conference, was to bring the actual relationship between the British Dominions and Great Britain and between the British Dominions and one another into conformity with that Declaration or, at any rate, to attempt to do so. The 1926 Conference did not attempt that job itself. It delegated it to a Committee which met in 1929 and which drew up a report which was submitted to us here last year, a report of which we approved by resolution. That Report was of course submitted to the Parliaments of the other Dominions as well as to this Parliament and was, I think, approved of by them all. We approved of it "gladly and proudly" as the Minister told us and without reservations. In South Africa they were not quite so sure what it meant and they passed a resolution of approval with an amendment to the effect that "the adoption of the Report must not be taken as derogating from the right of any member of the British Commonwealth to withdraw therefrom."

It is obvious from the discussion which took place in the South African Parliament that they were not quite so sure as the Minister for External Affairs is that the Declaration of 1926, as implemented by the Conference of 1929, established our status as an independent State. Since that formula was first made various interpretations of it have been produced in Great Britain and here and in other Dominions, and attempts have been made to explain it away. We are told that the Act which will be passed by the British Parliament, if all the Dominions Parliaments adopt resolutions such as that which is now before us, is going to give legal significance to that Declaration and is going to establish in law what the Minister says already exists in practice.

This proposed Act deals with the matters which were discussed at the 1929 Conference. As I have said, the 1929 Imperial Conference discovered particular aspects in the relations between the Dominions and Great Britain which did not conform to the formula they had produced: these were the powers of Governors-General, the ex-territorial operation of Dominion legislation, the operation of the Colonial Laws Validity Act, and the operations of the Merchant Shipping Acts. The 1929 Conference met and prepared its report. Its report was approved by the Parliaments of the Dominion. It was submitted to the Dominion Conference of 1930 which framed this draft Act which is to be submitted to the British Parliament this year. It is that Act of which we are now asked to approve. The question before the Dáil is whether we ought to approve of it. It is not whether Deputy Batt O'Connor was the best fighting man that Ireland ever produced.

It was Deputy Lemass who interjected something with regard to Deputy O'Connor.

Batt O'Connor wrote a book to tell us that he won the war.

He was a brave man anyway.

While Deputy O'Connor was speaking Deputy Lemass did make an allusion to him; and Deputy O'Connor made certain allusions to Deputy O'Kelly. Perhaps the least we might do here is not to make little of one another in connection with past history.

I know nothing about Deputy O'Connor's past. I was agreeing with the Ceann Comhairle, who has emphasised my agreement that it is not Deputy O'Connor's past that is under discussion now. I am particularly anxious that this question should not be side-tracked as Deputy O'Connor has attempted to side-track it. I want Deputy O'Connor and every other Deputy when voting in the Division Lobby on this matter to know what they are doing. The question whether or not we should approve of this Act can be answered only after we have got decisions on two other questions: first, what do we consider the national aim to be; and second, what does this Act achieve?

Mr. McGilligan, the Minister for External Affairs has made a number of speeches, and written a number of newspaper articles concerning the national status. Each one of these speeches and articles seems to contradict the one previous to it. It is as hard to reconcile the speeches of the Minister for External Affairs on this matter as it is to reconcile his speeches upon the Electricity Supply Bill. At the Imperial Conference he spoke big and bravely. He said: "For us the recognition of our position as a free and sovereign State comes before all other considerations." That was a brave declaration.

Some Deputy has said "hear, hear." Does he know what the Minister meant by it? The Minister has been making other speeches since from which it is quite clear that every word of that declaration has for him a different significance than for the ordinary man. The Minister did not mean at all what others understood him to mean. If he did mean it, if he went to that Conference as a representative of the Irish nation, not as the representative of a limited part of Ireland, and there stated that the recognition of our position as a free and sovereign State came before all other considerations, then he was speaking the mind of this Party. It is impossible to understand what exactly the Minister is driving at, except we understand the state of his mind, his conception of the events that led up to the present position of the country and that preceded the establishment of this State. His whole position, his whole political philosophy, if I might use that term, seems to depend upon the misunderstanding of Irish history and the misrepresentation of the manner in which the Irish Free State came into existence. He wrote an article for the Cumann na nGaedheal organ in which he said: "When the Treaty of 1921 was ratified by the Provisional Parliament and the British Parliament there was established in this country a new State."

He said other things in that article from which it was quite clear that for him, at any rate, the history of Ireland began on 6th December, 1921. He ignores everything that happened before that date. It has no significance for him, no lessons to teach him in the present time. Everything was dark before 6th December, 1921, when a new State was established. The Minister does not know how it was established, and he does not care. He merely knows that a new star came into the international firmament at that time, and it is with the fortunes of that star that he is concerned. He said: "Politically and legally the establishment of this State was complete when the Treaty was ratified by the Parliaments of the two contracting parties." Mark the phrase—"by the Parliaments of the two contracting parties, namely, the British Parliament and the Provisional Parliament."

Does Deputy O'Connor agree that the Treaty was negotiated between the British Parliament and the Provisional Parliament which a British Act had attempted to establish in this country? Does not every Deputy know that the Treaty was negotiated by men claiming to speak for all Ireland in the name of a Parliament that claimed to act for all Ireland? It was as such, and as such only, that they had any right to negotiate at all. The Treaty, as Deputy O'Connor has told us, was made between the British Parliament and all Ireland. It included all Ireland, and that fact is not disguised by the obnoxious contracting-out clause which operated subsequently to deprive us of six counties.

At the Imperial Conference the Minister said: "Ireland became a member of the British group because she believes her national aspirations can be realised in full within that group." Does any Deputy believe that such was the thought in the minds of Deputies who voted for the Treaty? Does any Deputy pretend, as the Minister attempts to pretend, that it was considerations of that kind which weighed with the majority of those who voted for the agreement of 1921? If any Deputy labours under that delusion, let him read the report of the debate on that occasion. Does Deputy O'Connor, or any other Deputy who was associated with the national movement in those days, pretend that it was the belief that Irish national aspirations could be realised in full within the British Empire that prompted the majority of the elected representatives of the people to vote for inclusion in the Empire, or was it other considerations—considerations such as have been referred to by Deputy O'Kelly, consideration of the fact that the Black and Tans were in the country and that the British Government had publicly and definitely stated that refusal to ratify would mean that the Black and Tans would be let loose to commit atrocities similar to those they had already committed? Deputies know what the nature of these atrocities was. The Minister, when in London, was reported in the Press as having joined enthusiastically in singing "God Save the King." Men were shot in this country because they would not do that. The Black and Tans came round at night, put revolvers to men's chests and said to them: "Sing `God Save the King' or you will die," and they preferred to die rather than sing it. The Minister, who claimed to be our representative in London at the Imperial banquet, joined, as the Press told us, enthusiastically in singing that anthem. Thus have the mighty fallen!

If it is the view of this Dáil that it is the aim and always has been the aim of our people to develop and evolve in a constitutional manner as a component part of the British Empire, then this Report and this Resolution that we are discussing may have some importance. The Minister for External Affairs talked at the Rotary Club here about the ties of blood and sentiment that are binding us to the British Empire—ties of blood and sentiments which it would be lunacy to ignore. There are other ties and other sentiments equally strong binding us to the old tradition of nationhood, the old idea, the old conception of what the status of our nation should be and what the rights of our people are, and we cannot ignore these either. It was never the accepted aim of the Irish people to develop and evolve as a component part of the British Empire. It was always our aim that we should get outside that political combination altogether, to abolish the last vestige of British domination. It is because this Act not merely fails to do that but has the opposite effect that we do not think the Dáil should give its approval to it.

Let us examine it from the position of those who think, as the Minister for External Affairs thinks, that our destiny can be worked out as a member of the British Empire, and let us see what the Act will achieve. The declaration of the Imperial Conference of 1926 purported to express our legislative independence. The principal flaw in that declaration is the theoretical legislative supremacy of the Imperial Parliament. The Minister has told us that this Act, set out in this Report, is in the nature of an act of renunciation by Great Britain. It is nothing of the kind. It is carefully phrased so that it could not be mistaken for anything of the kind. We have learned the lesson in the last few days that we must not accept the Minister's word as to what an Act intends to do. We are concerned with the cold, hard phrases therein contained, and there is nothing in these words which justifies the description of that Act as an act of renunciation by the Imperial Parliament. The Imperial Parliament always has claimed power to legislate for the whole Empire, and that power is not being destroyed by this Act. It is carefully drafted in every phrase to preserve that theoretical supremacy of the British Parliament. I ask Deputies to take it and read it for themselves, to look at the phraseology used in every particular:

No Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom passed after the commencement of this Act shall extend to a Dominion as part of the law of that Dominion unless it is expressly declared in that Act that that Dominion has requested and consented to the enactment thereof. Is the theoretical legislative supremacy of the British Parliament destroyed by that section? Is that the section which is in effect an act of renunciation? Let us read them all and find out where it is that the act of renunciation is contained, by what particular clause is the legislative supremacy of the British Parliament destroyed:

It is hereby declared and enacted that the Parliament of a Dominion has full power to make laws having extra-territorial operations.

The Minister tells us we are not concerned with that clause, that we always had in theory the power to pass laws having an extra-territorial operation. We never attempted to do it, however. It has been pointed out here that a Nationality Act was required, that there was no definition of Irish Nationality. That Act has not been produced, and I suggest that it has not been produced because the position was not, in fact, as the Minister declared it to be:

The Colonial Laws Validity Act shall not apply to any law made after the commencement of this Act by the Parliament of a Dominion.

Is that the act of renunciation, is that the clause which destroys the legislative supremacy of the British Parliament?

Do not bother about the British Parliament. We have a Parliament of our own here.

Deputy Sheehy does not know what we are discussing. We are asked to approve of an Act which is to be submitted to the British Parliament this year. We cannot ignore the British Parliament. We are approving of the passage of this Act by the British Parliament. If Deputy Sheehy knew what we were talking about he would not make ignorant interruptions.

Mr. Sheehy

I know you would destroy the State if you could.

Is it in the recital that the Minister referred to that the legislative supremacy of the British Parliament is destroyed and the act of renunciation made?

And whereas it is in accord with the established constitutional position that no law hereafter made by the Parliament of the United Kingdom shall extend to any of the Dominions as part of the law in force in that Dominion otherwise than at the request and with the consent of that Dominion...

and whereas we are united in this loyalty to the British Crown which Deputy O'Kelly referred to. These are the two recitals. In what section or clause or part of that act is the declaration of renunciation made to which the Minister referred? What part of it, or what section of it destroys the theoretical legislative supremacy of the British Parliament which has always existed, and which I maintain will continue to exist even if this Act is passed? The Minister has told us the purport of this Act is merely to establish as a matter of law what ought already have been established as a matter of practice. If that is so, it would be much better if this Act were never passed because the process of definition is a process of limitation.

The Minister told us that the method by which these old legislative anomalies were to be destroyed did not concern him. He was so little concerned about the method, that in the method he lost the principle. Remember that this Act is to be passed by the British Parliament. What one British Parliament has passed another can repeal. If our position is to be that whatever legislative independence we possess is to depend in law upon the passage of that Act by the British Parliament, then another British Parliament or this British Parliament can completely reverse that position by repealing the Act and by passing this resolution which is now before us we admit their right to repeal the Act. I move the adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 until Friday, 17th July.
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