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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 19 Nov 1931

Vol. 40 No. 14

Twenty-Seventh Report of the Committee of Selection. - Finance (Customs Duties) (No. 4) Bill, 1931—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be read a Second Time." (Minister for Finance).

I do not intend to say anything concerning the general question of the Budget deficit and the methods taken by the Government to meet it but, on this Bill, which imposes an additional charge upon petrol, I wish to draw the attention of the Minister for Finance, and the Dáil generally, to the position in which it places the owners of omnibuses operating in the Free State area. As the Minister is aware, the tax upon omnibuses has been very substantially and very rapidly increased over the past few years. From 1928 up to the period before the introduction of this additional tax, the tax upon omnibuses has been increased by practically 500 per cent. This additional impost, averaging about £150 per bus per year, is going to have the effect of putting a very large number of them off the road. Prior to 1929, omnibuses were taxed to the extent of £2 per seat. In that year the Minister for Finance, on the plea that the amount secured by that tax was not adequate to offset the amount of damage done by each bus to the roads, increased the tax from £2 to £5 per seat. In that year, there was no tax upon petrol.

The tax upon petrol was imposed, for the first time, in the Budget of this year, and resulted in a very substantial additional burden being placed upon the shoulders of those who are engaged in the road transport industry. When the tax of 4d. per gallon was imposed upon petrol, the omnibus owners agitated for a reduction in the seating tax to the original level of £2. That agitation was not successful. The Minister for Finance would not agree to the reduction of that tax. Now, however, that the tax upon petrol has gone up from 4d. to 8d., it is, I think, only just that the Minister for Finance should gravely consider whether or not the burden he is imposing on the industry is too heavy and that the tax referred to should be reduced in the manner suggested. I particularly recommend him to consider the consequences to the road transport industry of the maintenance of all these taxes at their present level, and also to consider the consequences to the Exchequer. It is quite obvious, if the new tax operates, as many of the bus owners think it will operate, to reduce considerably the number of omnibuses on the roads, the Exchequer will lose more by its refusal to effect a reduction in the seating tax than it would lose by that reduction. I should like to give some figures in support of that contention. If we take the average number of seats, per bus, at 20, then the average annual yield of the seating tax, per bus, is £100. I have been informed by the Bus Owners' Association that the average annual consumption of petrol, per bus, is 7,600 gallons. Consequently, the yield of the petrol tax at the level of 8d. per gallon will be £250 per bus. In other words, the tax paid per bus operating in the Free State will be £350. As there are, roughly, 800 buses now in operation, the total yield of the tax, if there is no reduction in the number of buses, will be about £280,000. If, as is likely, the new tax operates to drive off the roads those buses which have been working upon the margin line, or realising only a small profit for their owners in recent months, to the extent of one out of five, the loss to the Exchequer will be about £56,000, whereas a reduction in the seating tax from £5 to the original level of £2, will mean a loss of only £48,000 if the number of buses is not reduced. Consequently, from the point of view of the Minister for Finance in relation to the Exchequer, apart altogether from other considerations, there is a strong case for conceding to the bus owners their request to have the seating tax reduced to its original level. The tax upon buses here is very much higher than that imposed in any other country in the world at present. There is, of course, in Britain an 8d. tax upon petrol, but there is no tax anywhere as heavy as £5 per seat—the tax which operates here.

Apart from considerations of revenue, there is the possibility of a considerable number of people being disemployed if some reduction in the burden placed upon the industry is not conceded. I would strongly urge upon the Minister for Finance that he should reconsider the representations made to him by the bus owners at the beginning of the year when the 4d. tax was first imposed. Whatever claims the bus owners made then are obviously stronger at the present time, now that the petrol tax has been doubled. They are so strong as to be, in my opinion, almost irresistible. The road transport industry may require reorganisation. There may be certain things in relation to it which will necessitate the introduction of legislation, but we have got to recognise that it is a monument to the initiative and business enterprise of a number of people in this country who availed of a new development when it came and took the risk of investing their money in it. If they are to be deprived of the profits of their enterprise, or subjected to any restrictions, it should be by direct legislation and not by the imposition of an over whelming tax burden in an indirect way. I take it that nobody in this House wishes to see the road transport industry destroyed. It has conferred a very great boon upon a number of people. At present, it is being operated at a loss. The Minister for Industry and Commerce put it this way—that road transport was being sold at less than the cost of production. That is a fact. It is a fact because the two big companies that dominate the industry—the I.O.C. and the Dublin United Tramways Company—adopted the policy, when the tax on petrol was imposed, of main taining their fares at the original level. The adoption of that policy, by these companies, forced upon the other and smaller companies the adoption of a similar policy. These companies, as the public accounts show, are losing substantial sums every year on their omnibus services and the smaller companies are similarly losing.

That situation obviously cannot go on for ever. The imposition of the new burden is going to bring the position to a crisis, and either the industry is going to disappear or else some consideration will have to be given to these difficulties by the Minister for Finance. I strongly urge that it is in the best interests of the State that some easing of the burden should be conceded. The best and the easiest manner in which that could be done is, as suggested by the bus owners, in a reduction of the seating tax to its original level. I would ask the Minister, when replying, to consider that and to say if it is not possible to introduce legislation to give effect to these proposals before the Dáil adjourns.

The question which the Deputy has dealt with relates only indirectly to the matter which is dealt with in this Bill. I have already informed representatives of the bus owners that I am ready to meet them, to hear their views in detail, to examine any figures that they submit, but I do not accept it as obvious that it is necessary that there should be a reduction of the seating tax. There are very definite arguments against it. I do not think that a £5 seating tax is in itself too high. I think it is reasonable that the buses should be required to contribute directly to the roads something proportionate to the cost of repairing the damage that they do and something proportionate to the use they get out of the roads. It is, I think, not only difficult, but impossible, to assess exactly the cost of the damage done by particular buses or by buses generally to the roads, but it is quite clear that the £2 tax did not at all compensate local authorities for the costs that the buses imposed upon them. If we relieve the bus owners we throw an extra burden on the local authorities. The roads are maintained out of rates subject to such contributions as may come from the Road Fund.

The contributions from the Road Fund depend upon the taxes derived from private cars, from buses and from ordinary commercial vehicles. If we relieve bus owners we are going to throw a burden on the rates proportionate to the remission we give to bus owners. Naturally all sorts of people will say when a new imposition of any sort has to be made, that they are going to be driven out of business. I remember a number of bus owners who approached me, individually and personally, assuring me that they were going to be driven out of business almost immediately. I know that there are indications that they are at least doing as well as they were before the imposition of the 4d. tax. My own view is that in some cases the present bus fares are ridiculously low. One can find routes in which the fares for particular journeys are ridiculously low, and I do not think an undue hardship would be imposed on the community if there was some increase in these fares. It may be that the imposition of this additional 4d. will cause competition to be still keener, will cause some buses to hold on to the old rates with grim determination and a determination to beat out others, or it may be that the effect of the imposition of this tax will be to encourage them to come to the conclusion that they have got to face the question of making their fares correspond more closely to the economic realities of the situation.

Petrol is cheap. If petrol became dear of course I would then say that probably the situation would be one that would have to be faced, but I have to discount a bit the complaints and the forecasts of disaster that one hears when a new tax is imposed. I am quite certain that if the price of petrol were increased by 4d. as a result of some agreement amongst the petrol-producing companies or countries, or something of that nature —and when one looks at the fluctuations that have taken place in regard to the price of petrol that would not be an enormous or unthinkable increase—if that increase took place we would not have these declarations that all sorts of companies were going out of business.

The motor transport industry would be quite able to adjust itself to such a change as that, and would adjust itself without any fear that the whole thing was going to collapse, and that an enormous number of people were going to be driven out of business with a loss of their capital. Subject to anything I might hear in detail—and I do not want to prejudge the situation—I think that the situation ought to be met, and could be met without any hardship to the community by such an adjustment of fares as is necessary. There are routes in which fares are not unduly low. There are other routes where they are ridiculously low. I think it will really be a question of the industry adjusting itself to the tax, as it would have to adjust itself to an increase in the price of petrol if that occured. There is a limit to what any industry can bear in the matter of imposts. You may increase an impost to a certain extent and adjustments may be easily made to meet it, and no substantial harm will come to anybody. But you may push your imposts beyond that safety point. And what we have to judge is, whether the new impost is going to have any very serious effects or to have any substantially detrimental effects at all. My own feeling is that with the price of petrol as low as it is, this new burden is one that can quite well be borne. If the price of petrol were dearer or were ever to go up, we might have quite a new situation. Possibly, if it went high enough, we might possibly be faced with a situation in which sufficient and efficient and reasonable economic transport services could not be given. In some cases, we have at present an excessive motor transport service, and if you had some slight moderation in the amount of transport available it would not be any harm. Everybody can see that there is an uneconomic competition.

[An Ceann Comhairle took the Chair.]

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 74; Níl, 41.

  • Alton, Ernest Henry.
  • Anthony, Richard.
  • Beckett, James Walter.
  • Broderick, Henry.
  • Brodrick, Seán.
  • Carey, Edmund.
  • Clancy, Patrick.
  • Cole, John James.
  • Collins-O'Driscoll, Mrs. Margt.
  • Conlon, Martin.
  • Connolly, Michael P.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Davin, William.
  • Davis, Michael.
  • Doherty, Eugene.
  • Dolan, James N.
  • Doyle, Edward.
  • Doyle, Peadar Seán.
  • Duggan, Edmund John.
  • Dwyer, James.
  • Egan, Barry M.
  • Esmonde, Osmond Thos. Grattan.
  • Fitzgerald, Desmond.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • Haslett, Alexander.
  • Hassett, John J.
  • Heffernan, Michael R.
  • Hennessy, Michael Joseph.
  • Hennessy, Thomas.
  • Henry, Mark.
  • Hogan, Patrick (Clare).
  • Holohan, Richard.
  • Kelly, Patrick Michael.
  • Keogh, Myles.
  • Law, Hugh Alexander.
  • Leonard, Patrick.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • Bennett, George Cecil.
  • Blythe, Ernest.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Mathews, Arthur Patrick.
  • McDonogh, Martin.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • Mongan, Joseph W.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, James E.
  • Myles, James Sproule.
  • Nally, Martin Michael.
  • Nolan, John Thomas.
  • O'Connell, Richard.
  • O'Connell, Thomas J.
  • O'Connor, Bartholomew.
  • O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
  • O'Hanlon, John F.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas.
  • O'Leary, Daniel.
  • O'Mahony, The.
  • O'Reilly, John J.
  • O'Sullivan, Gearóid.
  • O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
  • Reynolds, Patrick.
  • Rice, Vincent.
  • Roddy, Martin.
  • Shaw, Patrick W.
  • Sheehy, Timothy (West Cork).
  • Thrift, William Edward.
  • Tierney, Michael.
  • Vaughan, Daniel.
  • White, Vincent Joseph.
  • Wolfe, George.
  • Wolfe, Jasper Travers.

Níl

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Blaney, Neal.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Boland, Patrick.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Buckley, Daniel.
  • Carty, Frank.
  • Clery, Michael.
  • Colbert, James.
  • Cooney, Eamon.
  • Corkery, Dan.
  • Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
  • Crowlev, Tadhg.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Fahy, Frank.
  • Flinn, Hugo.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Geoghegan, James.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hayes, Seán.
  • Houlihan, Patrick.
  • Jordan, Steohen.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kilroy, Michael.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • O'Dowd, Patrick Joseph.
  • O'Kelly, Seán T.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Sexton, Martin.
  • Sheehy, Timothy (Tipp.).
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Walsh, Richard.
  • Ward, Francis C.
Tellers:—Ta: Deputies Duggan and P.S. Doyle; Níl: Deputies Boland and Allen.
Question declared carried.
Committee Stage ordered for Friday, November 20, 1931.
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