Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 15 Mar 1932

Vol. 41 No. 2

Widows' and Orphans' Pensions.

Minister for Local Government and Public Health (Mr. O'Kelly)

With your permission, Sir, I desire to make a short statement on the question of Widows' and Orphans' Pensions.

It is the intention of the Government to set up a Committee to inquire into and report upon the question of providing pensions for widows and orphans. The nature and personnel of the Committee to be constituted is under consideration. When appointed, the Committee will be requested to submit their recommendations at an early date. The terms of reference are also under consideration, but I may say provisionally that they will include an examination of the principles upon which such pensions are granted and administered elsewhere; of the expenditure to be involved in desirable schemes and of the incidence of costs thereof to the various parties to be concerned; of the relation of such pensions to existing arrangements under the Poor Law and the making of specific recommendations.

Mr. Morrissey

May I ask the Minister for Local Government if he is aware that an almost similar statement was made in this House over three years ago by Deputy Cosgrave in response to a motion put down by Deputy T. Murphy (West Cork)? Are we to take it that the Committee now proposed to be set up will be expected to cover the same ground which we are told has been under consideration for the last three years? Are we to expect that it will take at least a further three years before the Dáil will be informed as to whether or not such a claim is reasonable?

Mr. O'Kelly

Deputy Morrissey is well aware of the fate that befell the Government which took three years to consider this question. We have no intention of following their example.

Mr. Morrissey

May I ask if the Minister for Local Government has had before him the facts which have been ascertained by the persons appointed by the late Government with regard to this question?

Mr. O'Kelly

I have not had time to have all the facts put before me. I have had some of them, but I have got to get a little time to examine all the facts even before the Committee is constituted.

Mr. Morrissey

Are we to understand from that that the Minister for Local Government, without having before him the full facts which have been ascertained by the person or persons appointed by the late Government, has decided to set up a Commission?

Mr. O'Kelly

The Government has not decided to set up a Commission.

Mr. Morrissey

Or a Committee? I understood from the Minister that the present Government have decided to set up a Committee. Are we to understand from the Minister's statement that the decision has been come to without any advertence to the full facts which have already been obtained?

Mr. O'Kelly

The reply is in the negative.

Mr. Davin

Will Deputy Morrissey say what are the full facts with regard to the Minister's predecessor?

Mr. Morrissey

Deputy Davin knows more perhaps about the facts, or ought to be in a position to know more about the facts, than I do, as he is closer to the present Minister than I am.

General Mulcahy

The House is aware that a statement was made that the actuary dealing with the examination in connection with this matter was waiting for some statistics based on an examination of the census figures for 1926, and that it was stated by the Department of Statistics, to the best of my recollection, that it would not be possible to get some of the figures that may be absolutely necessary in connection with an examination of this question for a further period of time. I think the full figures that were asked for at that time have not yet been obtained as a result of the census. That is the position with regard to that.

Mr. Wolfe

Is the Minister for Local Government in a position to give the House an assurance that this motion will not be used as an excuse for shelving the claims of the old age pensioners to get their former rights restored to them?