Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 6 Dec 1932

Vol. 45 No. 6

Trade Agreement between the Irish Free State and Dominion of Canada. - Rates on Agricultural Land (Relief) Bill, 1932—Second Stage.

Minister for Local Government and Public Health (Mr. O'Kelly)

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time." The object of this Bill is to provide for the grant and distribution amongst county councils and certain urban districts of a sum of £250,000 to be applied by them in relieving to a certain extent the rates leviable during the current financial year in respect of agricultural land.

The Bill proposes that the sum of £250,000 should be allocated in the proportions set forth in the Schedule to the Bill. It is intended that the benefit of the grant should be given primarily to small farmers who, for this purpose, are taken to be persons in possession of agricultural land, the rateable value of which does not exceed £10. Larger farmers in possession of land of greater value are not excluded from benefit but will rank as if they were small farmers in possession of land not exceeding £10 in value. Other persons in occupation of agricultural land will participate in the benefit of the grant to the same extent as if they were small farmers.

The benefit to be given was fixed at approximately three-fourths of the current rates leviable on such valuations. Accordingly, the proportions on which the grant is allocated is based on the aggregate of the number of valuation units of £10 or less in each county and urban district and the current rates leviable thereon. For this purpose, with certain exceptions, a person in occupation of agricultural land, the total valuation of which exceeds £10, is treated as in occupation of land of a valuation of £10. These exceptions are specified in Section 2 of the Bill and comprise land in respect of which owners, not being occupiers, are rated under the Local Government (Rates on Small Dwellings) Act, 1928, or land acquired by local authorities under the Labourers Acts, or held by the Land Commission. Each tenement held by these persons and bodies is, for the purpose of the Bill, regarded as having a separate valuation unit, and accordingly they get the benefit of the grant in respect of each holding.

The sum of £250,000 has, therefore, been apportioned between each of the counties and urban districts in proportion to the total of the valuation units calculated as described in each such county and urban district and the rates leviable thereon. Thus, if each of the sums set forth in the Schedule is divided by the sum of the valuation units in each county and urban district, it will produce a rate in the £ equivalent to approximately three-fourths of the current rates leviable thereon in respect of agricultural land. The remission of rates which each person will obtain is therefore measured by the product of his unit of valuation and such rates as so ascertained. The remission on this basis would roughly be equivalent to three-fourths of the current rates on land on the basis of a valuation unit of £10 or less.

At the time the Government announced their intention of making this grant, most of the rates in the counties and urban districts had either been made or were in process of being made and it was not considered practicable to have the rates revised on the basis of the grants to be made to each county and urban district. It is, accordingly, proposed that the allowances to be made to ratepayers will be made by the issue of credit notes to the amount of the remission due to each ratepayer. On presentation of any such credit note in part payment of rates, credit will be given to the ratepayer concerned to the extent of the amount specified in the note. Such credit note may be presented in part payment of any rate due by the ratepayer. Provision is made for the refund either in whole or as a part to a ratepayer, who has paid all his rates for the current year, of the amount of a credit note issued to him.

With a view to expediting the payment of rates it is provided that the benefit of credit notes must be claimed on or before the 31st day of March, 1933, the last day of the current financial year. Any portion of the grant which is not disposed of by the end of that year will be applied in the subsequent year in like manner as the ordinary agricultural grant would be applicable, and thus any balance outstanding will go in relief of the general body of persons rated in respect of agricultural land. It was necessary to give certain directions and instructions to county and urban district councils in anticipation of the provisions of this Bill, and accordingly by Section 10 of the Bill provision is made for their validation, and the validation of the acts done by those councils under such directions or instructions.

Question proposed—"That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

So far as this temporary measure goes, it will do something, but it will do very little to relieve the present state of agricultural depression in this country. I think it is greatly to be regretted that at this period, when farmers of all classes, but more especially the small farmers, are suffering considerably and are being hit so much by a multiplicity of Government measures which are making for their impoverishment, the Government has not gone further and that there has not been a complete remission of rates for this year. So far as this sum of £250,000 goes it will, of course, be of some advantage to the agricultural community and, in consequence, this is a Bill which we do not intend to oppose and it is a Bill which, if necessary, we will support. We cannot, however, support it without making it clear that we do not consider its provisions are adequate or approach even to adequacy.

There are some things in this Bill which I do not like. It seems to me that when relief is not given to rates all round no Government Department should receive any portion of this grant back. Under this Bill, special provisions are being made by which the Land Commission will receive certain relief. In some counties there are considerable areas of land in the possession of the Land Commission. I will take County Mayo, County Galway and other congested counties as an example. A very considerable amount of land—small, scattered areas as well as large farms—is in the possession of the Land Commission. I cannot see why one Government Department should give out money in relief of rates and that money should be transferred to another Department, as it will be under this Bill. It is my intention on the Committee Stage, unless the Minister shows some justification for this proposal, to move amendments which will make the Irish Land Commission pay full rates upon all land which it has in its occupation.

If I were to make the speech which I would like to make, I am afraid the Chair would rule me out of order. What I am anxious to do is to comment upon what is not in this Bill rather than what is in it. I am perfectly aware of what this Bill ought to contain and what class of legislation ought to be brought in that would be in some way adequate. There ought to be something big done by the Government to help along the agricultural community and, above all, to help the smallholders who are suffering so much at the present time. I am perfectly aware of what measures they ought to bring in. I do know that they should not confine themselves so completely and entirely to a Bill which makes such inadequate provision as this. That is the subject with which I should like to deal, but I am aware that I cannot deal with it at any further length now without rendering myself liable to be held up by the Chair. I am willing to vote for this Bill, but I must make it perfectly clear that I consider this absolutely and entirely a very inadequate measure of relief.

Mr. Dillon

I should like, first of all, to ask the Minister a question. Under this Bill do the credit notes to persons who have already paid their rates issue automatically, or must those persons apply to the local authority? I take it that they issue automatically.

Mr. O'Kelly

Yes, automatically.

Mr. Dillon

I welcome the principle of the Bill and it is to that we should address ourselves now. I think it admits a very important principle and that is that derating for agricultural land is a necessity. It admits that in times of stress, such as we are passing through, the largest possible measure of derating for these farmers who are nearest the border line of poverty is essential. The Government recognise that it is absolutely vital and, though the revenue is already heavily taxed, they have appropriated this money to make it possible to relieve holders, whose valuation does not exceed £10, of three-quarters of their rates. I am sorry that the promises the farmers heard from Fianna Fáil platforms during the recent General Election have somewhat wilted since Fianna Fáil took office. I seem to remember that it was part of the policy of Fianna Fáil that there should be complete derating of agricultural land.

My recollection is that they cordially endorsed such a proposal during the election campaign. I have not heard anything about complete derating since they came into office. Now that the Minister is introducing a Bill to remit, for this year, 75 per cent. of the rates of a great deal of the agricultural land of the country, I think this would be an appropriate occasion for the Minister in charge of these matters to declare that his Government intend, at the earliest possible moment, to introduce legislation to derate agricultural land as it is derated elsewhere. I recognise that I might be trespassing on your indulgence, a Chinn Comhairle, if I ventured to discuss at too great length on this Bill the merits of a proposal for derating agricultural land, but I think the Minister should be quite prepared to indicate the intention of the Government as regards that matter on this occasion. I cannot conceive of any more appropriate occasion than this for such a declaration.

Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney raised a point—I think a very important point —about the Irish Land Commission receiving benefits under this Bill. The Vice-President will be aware that if the Irish Land Commission receives credit notes under this Bill any money they recover will return to the coffers of the Commission and, thence, if there is a surplus at the end of the year, into the coffers of the Minister for Finance. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance was eloquent on that subject a few nights ago in connection with relief grants. He pointed out that if relief grants were handed to the Land Commission to administer and if pressure of work made it impossible for the Land Commission to dispose of the money within the financial year, the balance would find its way into the Treasury and would never be spent at all. I suggest to the Minister for Local Government that if he allows any part of this quarter of a million pounds to be appropriated to credit notes by the Irish Land Commission, it will follow the course taken by the grants which the Land Commission administered in the past and a material portion of the sum will find its way back into the Treasury. I do not suggest that that is the purpose of the Minister, but I think it might be worth his while to examine the matter which Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney has raised, bearing that point in mind. I welcome the principle of the Bill and I shall support it. I can assure the Minister that I shall support it with much greater cordiality and enthusiasm if the Minister takes advantage of the occasion to declare that it is the intention of the Government of which he is Vice-President to introduce at the earliest possible moment proposals for the complete derating of agricultural land.

Mr. Corry

I welcome this Bill, which was foreshadowed in the Budget proposals of this year. I am glad that the small holders are going to get fair play or, perhaps, preference under the Bill. Under previous derating proposals, we had large ranchers here and there throughout the country getting ten, fifteen, twenty or thirty times as much relief as small farmers who were working their holding. Under this Bill, these gentlemen are at last being put in their proper place. I am very glad that they are. This Bill, as I said, was foreshadowed in the Budget. It was meant at that period as a carrying out of a definite proposal brought in last year by our Party when in Opposition. It was defeated then by the last Government. We had brought in a proposal for £1,000,000 relief of agricultural land. I am glad that our Government took the first opportunity of carrying out that pledge to the Irish people—of carrying it out in the manner in which they have carried it out here. I was rather amused by the speech of Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney who, last year, opposed any idea of the farmers requiring anything like £1,000,000 relief of rating. I was rather amused to hear the Deputy complain that this Bill did not go far enough. Being a close student of statistics, I am rather surprised that when the Deputy saw last year that the price the farmers got for their commodities had dropped by £6,000,000 as compared with 1930 that—with the knowledge of figures which a member of the Executive Council would have—he did not give way to our proposal and provide £1,000,000 for the unfortunate farmers. Apparently, his position has driven him into a more generous frame of mind in respect of the farming community than he possessed when we heard him oppose here, with all the vigour at his disposal, any relief whatsoever being provided for the agricultural community, whether it was by way of remission of interest, of which they had been robbed under various Land Acts——

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

Would the Deputy quote some of those speeches, because I have no recollection of having ever made them?

Mr. Corry

I regret I cannot quote the Deputy's speech. I suppose it must be like the dream he had of the kicking cow—it has vanished with the years.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

It was the Deputy who was dreaming of the kicking cow.

Mr. Corry

If you gave that cow a good feed of Indian meal now, it would kick better.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There is not a word about a kicking cow in this Bill.

Mr. Corry

I suppose we may take it that the Deputy was dumb on that famous occasion, but he voted against the proposal and made up for his dumbness by legislating with his feet.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

The Deputy does not seem to be aware that three-quarters of a million pounds were given in relief of rates last year.

Mr. Corry

The Deputy voted against the proposal to give £1,000,000 in relief of rates last year. In this Bill, we are carrying out the promise we gave——

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

By giving one-third of the amount that was given last year.

Mr. Corry

I cannot help it if the Deputy has a gramophone record in his head. He had a gramophone record in his head for five or six years and we heard it on every occasion. Now, the same old record keeps on going. I am very glad that this Bill has been introduced. It is only carrying out the pledge we gave. The farmers can rest assured that they have a Government which appreciates their interests and is prepared to look after their interests and not a Government which considers the landlord first and everybody else afterwards. We have proven in this Bill that our first interest is the small farmer who works his holding and he is, at least, getting a fair crack of the whip.

Mr. Goulding

I notice in the Schedule to the Bill dealing with ratepayers in urban areas that some rather important towns are omitted. I fail to see why large towns in certain areas should be left out. The urban agricultural ratepayers in these districts are just as badly off as the urban agricultural ratepayers in other areas, and I fail to see why they should be discriminated against. They have been as badly hit by the agricultural depression as the farmers in the purely rural areas, and it is only fair that an effort should be made to relieve them to some extent. For instance, I see that the urban district of Dungarvan is not included in the Schedule. I mention Dungarvan because it is typical of a considerable number of other towns of a similar kind. I suggest to the Minister that on the Committee Stage a wider discrimination should be made and that towns such as this should be included. These people have been pressing us for relief for the past few years and it is about time that we should do something for them. It is certainly curious that a discrimination should be made between one town and another.

Mr. O'Kelly

I am glad to note that the Bill has been welcomed on all sides of the House, even with certain conditions, as suggested by Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney. Although it only deals with a sum of a quarter million, I do not think that in these times even a quarter of a million given to the agricultural community in general is likely to be looked upon as anything but a further generous measure of relief, in addition to what they have got even from this Government during its short period of office. Already the agricultural community have got by way of agricultural grants assistance in relief of rates to the extent of one and three-quarter millions and this quarter of a million additional will reduce very considerably the amount of rates on agricultural land. Speaking as one who represents a borough constituency, I know that we in the boroughs often feel that the agricultural community are certainly much more favoured by this House than people living in cities and towns. That may be justly so. I know that it has often been brought to my attention by my constituents that those of us who represent the boroughs are not as influential in Government circles as those who represent agriculture; at least, that we do not seem to be able to get as much in proportion to the resources of the State out of the Exchequer for our constituents as the agricultural community are able to get for theirs.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister will not take us as assenting to that proposition.

Mr. O'Kelly

That may be.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

It may lighten the Minister's heart to know that the people in the agricultural districts complain that everything is going to the towns.

Mr. J.J. Byrne

It may hearten the Minister to know that there are some Deputies who agree with his view.

Mr. O'Kelly

That is the opinion, whether well-founded or not, of a great many people living in cities and towns. I personally, speaking as a Minister and for the Executive Council, say that as agriculture plays such a very important part in our national economy the agriculturists are bound to get first consideration from any Government of this State. I hope that when agriculture is restored to its proper position, probably by the aid of the present Government with, as I hope, an improvement in world conditions in general which will assist, those in the cities and towns will come in for a little share of the benefit that the agricultural community have been getting from Governments here and from the present Government since it came into office.

Deputy Goulding raised the question of agricultural holdings in urban areas. I have had many representations made to me when I was an ordinary Deputy and since I came to hold office as a Minister by representatives of these people, and I do believe that they have a certain claim. I do not think, however, that it would be of much value to them, and I do not think we would be justified in bringing in any new regulation of the kind with regard to the quarter of a million we are now giving as an additional grant for the relief of rates. It would not be of any material help to these people. I think they must await the reconsideration and reorganisation of the whole question of this agricultural grant. These grants have been given by Governments in the past in a haphazard kind of way. There has not been the thought behind the giving of these grants that, I think, the importance of the subject would justify. They have been given when times were hard. Governments have realised that conditions were bad in the agricultural industry, that times were hard, that they must come to the relief of that element in the community, and grants were made accordingly. Grants have been made in different areas under different conditions and on different principles. Before very long I think we will have to have a re-examination of these grants and a reorganisation of that matter. Roughly, the grants amount to about two millions now, but probably in a year or two they may amount to more. Whether it be done this year or next year, there will have to be a re-examination of these grants and of the method of their distribution. When that is being done I think it will be the proper time to give consideration to the people holding agricultural land in urban areas. I think they will be entitled to consideration when this reorganisation does take place, as I feel it must take place before very long.

Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney objected to the Land Commission getting any benefit from this grant. Why did he not object when his own Government gave back the money in the same way? They gave three or four times what this Government propose to give, and we never heard a word from him when his own Ministry gave back very considerable sums to the Land Commission.

In this particular instance this has got to be remembered with regard to the amounts going back to the Land Commission. There are at this moment hundreds of holdings being transferred and a considerable number of those—I cannot say how many at the moment— will be transferred before the 31st of March next. The benefit of the grant that is being made now to the Land Commission will go to these holders, and if you take the money off the Land Commission now the new holders will lose the benefit that would accrue to them.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

I cannot follow that.

Mr. O'Kelly

Well, it is so. The new holder will reap the benefit of the money that is going to the Land Commission if the land is transferred to him before the 31st of March next.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

The Land Commission holds some of this land for a very long time.

Mr. O'Kelly

We need not be told that. The Land Commission has been in possession of some of these holdings for 30 or 40 years.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

I do not think there is any land in their possession for so long.

Mr. O'Kelly

Yes, there are such lands. I think there are holdings that have been in their possession since the Land Commission was founded.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

The Land Commission was founded in 1881, but there was no land purchased before 1887 or 1888.

Mr. O'Kelly

Some of these lands have been held by the Land Commission for very long periods, but all that is outside our business at the moment. It would be unwise to take the money from the Land Commission. Undoubtedly some of it will go back to the Exchequer. If you take this money from the Land Commission now you might be depriving the new holders of the advantages that might come to them if they come into possession of their holdings before the 31st of March next. You would be doing that if you attempt to take away from the Land Commission the allotments of the money they get out of this agricultural grant.

With regard to de-rating the Government took the earliest opportunity of carrying out its promises. Deputy Corry said these promises were made last year when we discussed the question of the agricultural grant. We then asked that a grant of £1,000,000 be given. That was defeated by this House when it was opposed by the late Government. Three-quarters of a million was voted by the House on the suggestion of the late Government and in asking the House to grant this additional quarter of a million we are keeping the promise that was made at that time. There is no suggestion that is the full extent of the grant that will be made by the Fianna Fáil Government to the agricultural community.

We came into office at a time when the rates had been struck practically everywhere by the local authorities. I know this matter is being considered and is being thoroughly examined. I know that in connection with our policy of the holding of the Land Annuities the whole question as to the position of agriculture and the present position in particular of the agricultural community with regard to the payment of Land Annuities as well as the rates on agricultural land is being examined. When the next Budget is being introduced the question is bound to receive and will receive the consideration which the present position of agriculture demands. The Land Commission are landholders like everybody else and they get the same treatment as every other holder of land, large or small. We have got the same principle with regard to them. It would be improper and invidious in view of the fact that this land is being steadily transferred if we were to differentiate between them and the other landholders in the country. I think these are the only points that were raised.

Mr. Dillon

I assume that according to the usual practice I shall be allowed to ask two questions. The Minister gave it as one of the dominant features that the Land Commission should get this benefit so that certain persons who would be vested before the 31st of March would benefit by it. If we could devise between now and the Committee Stage an amendment that would preserve this benefit for any tenants vested before the 31st of March and at the same time see that the Land Commission will not get the benefit of this for the land in their possession, will the Minister consider it? The second point I want to put to the Minister is this: the Minister spoke circumspectly on the subject of de-rating. I think the Minister might be pressed to state if Fianna Fáil has a policy on the question of de-rating. Any policy they have must be subject to finance—to being able to find the money. The money has to be found from revenue or from the other source to which the Minister referred. Is it the policy of Fianna Fáil to devote that money to the de-rating of agricultural land in the Saorstát?

Mr. O'Kelly

With regard to the first question which Deputy Dillon put to me I would like to reserve the answer until I see the amendment. With regard to the second question, I must say that I do not remember any declaration being made by Fianna Fáil binding itself to complete de-rating. I do remember a declaration being made pledging Fianna Fáil to use the money of the land annuities for the benefit of the agricultural community.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister is not prepared to make a declaration now?

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. O'Kelly

If there is no objection, I propose to take the Committee Stage to-morrow.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

I am willing, as far as we are concerned, to take the Committee Stage to-morrow provided the Minister accepts amendments handed in to-morrow morning. So far as my amendments are concerned, I have already outlined them so that we will not be taking the Minister by surprise.

Committee Stage fixed for Wednesday, 7th December.

The Dáil adjourned at 7.10 p.m. until 3 o'clock on Wednesday, 7th December, 1932.