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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 31 Mar 1933

Vol. 46 No. 14

Private Deputies' Business. - Relief of Annuities and Rates on Agricultural Holdings—Motion.

I move:—

"That in the opinion of the Dáil the Executive Council should take steps to relieve the agricultural community from rates and annuities during the continuance of the economic war."

So much has been said on questions of this sort recently in this House that there is very little necessity for going into the reasons why we tabled this motion. Since the commencement of the economic war last July nobody can deny that the farmer is in the front line trenches, and I am hoping, as a result of tabling this motion here, that the Government will accept the motion and have the farmer removed from the front line trenches, and help him until this economic war has ended. If this is not done, I fear for the future of the agricultural community and for the future of the business people. I feel that, if this motion is not accepted, as I say, the farmer is going to remain in the front line trenches for all time.

Often, I have wondered during the period of this war, if the Government realise the conditions that exist down the country. I know that the Government have not on the Front Bench a farmer who knows anything about conditions. They may be depending on some back benchers who can spout down the country that this is a war which is going to end the conditions that have existed in this country for hundreds of years. I do not want to go back to Cromwell's time about this matter, but what I do want to stress is, that if the Front Benchers knew conditions down the country and realised what is happening, there would be no necessity for a motion of this sort. With regard to conditions down the country, they must know that the trade with outside countries which absorbed all our surplus produce is down by £8,000,000 in eight months. They say that they have saved £5,000,000 by the retention of the annuities and the other little items that are included, but that trade which is down by £8,000,000 in eight months, I think, speaks for itself.

They must realise also that unemployment is not decreasing. There is scarcely a change in the figures with regard to unemployment during the eight months period, and they must realise certainly that public services are practically at a standstill. They must realise that the rates outstanding up to yesterday would amount actually to 50 per cent. of the total amount. When I put a question to the President recently on de-rating I asked him had he definitely abandoned it, and he answered "yes." I asked him if he knew the conditions, and that 50 per cent. of the rates was uncollected and, moreover, was uncollectable, and his reply was: "We shall see." That is only one of the many threats that the President has made to the agricultural community during recent times.

At the end of the financial year 30 per cent. of the rates in my county were uncollected. I am speaking of County Cork, one of the best and the soundest counties in the Free State as far as the payment of rates and annuities goes. The Government and the President have no mandate from the farmers and the ratepayers of West Cork or from Cork County to carry on this economic war. Of course, we are reminded that in order to relieve agriculture the annuities have been reduced by 50 per cent. On the other hand the Government has reduced the agricultural grant by £448,000, and that amount will have to come out of the rates. The reduction of the agricultural grant, and the funding of the arrears of annuities—for which civil bills were issued last autumn, on which the people had to pay the costs—represent four and a half millions. I doubt if relief from 50 per cent. of the annuities will represent anything over 25 per cent. when all the items are totted up.

The Government's proposals fall short of what was promised when the Fianna Fáil Party were seeking office and fall far short of the promises that were made by responsible Deputies in that Party throughout the country. On July 25th, 1932, at a meeting held in Cork County Council Chamber, at which Deputy M.J. Corry presided, Deputy P.S. Murphy said that President de Valera had promised a deputation to retain the land annuities and to give full de-rating if we had industries. The land annuities have been retained at a fearful cost, but de-rating has been abandoned. The one industry that was in the country— the agricultural industry—has been killed. Some people say that 300 industries have been established; others say 200 and others, 150. We do not know how many have been established. If industries have been established, they have been established at the cost to this State of tariffs of from 25 per cent. to 75 per cent., and articles value for £100 are going to cost £125 to £175. In the industry that keeps 2,000,000 people employed, and that would employ far more if the opportunity were there, owing to the economic war we have to sell produce value for £100 for £50 and possibly less. How does any Government expect that a big industry that was giving employment to two millions of people is going to live under these conditions? None of the promises made by responsible members of the Fianna Fáil Party has been carried out, except the retention of the land annuities at a fearful cost. As a result of the economic war I could site cases to prove conclusively that farmers have lost more than the equivalent of the rates and the annuities. The price of pigs at the Farmers' Union abattoir at Cork varies from 55/- to 59/- a cwt. according to quality, but the price in Birmingham is from 70/- to 75/-. There were big pig feeders in my constituency who produced both for the Irish and the English markets. As a result of the tariffs they have lost 21/- per 1½ cwts. dead weight. In one case a farmer with an annuity of £20, who fattened pigs has lost on pigs alone more than the amount of the annuity. What has that man lost on the other commodities he produced? We are told that he has got bounties on live stock. The bounty is 12½ per cent. I may say that a bounty comes from one source and one source only, from the producers and taxpayers in this State. In the country the saying is that a bounty is like feeding a dog on his own tail. The tariffs are charged on the gross value but the bounties are paid on the net value.

I am afraid the Deputy has not shipped any cattle.

The Minister cannot deny that tariffs are charged on the gross value while bounties are paid on the net value. That is true. The Minister will get an opportunity of refuting it if it is not.

It is absolutely not true.

Only one bounty has been of any advantage to the producer in this country, and that is the bounty on butter. When the Minister for Agriculture produced his Dairy Produce (Price Stabilisation) Bill he knew, if the industry was to be kept going, that something of the kind should be done.

Motions similar to this have been debated for such a long time in the Dáil that I think it would be unfair for me to inflict on this House many further examples but what I do want to stress is that unless some relief is given and unless the Government come to a sense of their responsibilities to the State, and end the economic war and give the farmer an opportunity of living as he did in the past, living an honest life and paying his way as far as he can, paying his just demands, I am afraid there is no hope for this country. You cannot continue to pay bounties, subsidies and tariffs for ever. Responsible Ministers advocate the distribution of land. They want to encourage tillage and to change the whole economic policy of this State so that as a result of that the farmer will be able to meet half the annuities and all his rates. That in the face of it is a hopeless situation. If Ministers and Deputies on the Fianna Fáil Benches were only honest with themselves and honest with the country they would tell the President that that is a hopeless policy, a policy that cannot work. I come from a tillage area. I have been engaged in tillage all my life. I buy very little foreign foodstuffs. I find to-day with practically over 40 per cent. of my land under tillage, producing excellent wheat, excellent oats and an excellent potato crop, that there is no market for any of them. I fed them to cattle and I find to-day that the cattle to which I have fed them, which I have in the pink of condition, and which I as a small farmer must sell at the moment to meet my demands, which 12 months ago would realise £10 each, would not realise more than £4 or £5 each to-day. That sort of thing cannot continue.

The Minister for Agriculture in his speech on Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney's motion mentioned that he had added considerably to the wealth of the State and the wealth of the producer by the compulsory admixture of grain under the Cereals Bill. In 1932 we had 760,000 acres of cereals. The admixture of 10 per cent. took 76,000 acres. The Minister said that the producer of barley and the seller of corn gained anything from—I cannot give his exact figures as I have not the Official Report before me—4/- to 5/- per barrel. The admixture took 10 per cent. of the amount produced. Let us say that we have 760,000 acres of corn and that the yield on the average would be a ton per acre. That would give us 760,000 tons of cereals for the whole State and the admixture would take 76,000 tons of that. The farmers who were fortunate enough to sell these 76,000 tons possibly got that extra 4/- or 5/-, but what did I get? I had to feed my cattle with my corn and I am forced to sell my cattle at a huge reduction, at a price that they would have realised as dropped calves 12 months ago, after working my farm for 12 months, feeding my men, and so on.

A Deputy

We will get a buyer for you if you are willing to sell them at that price.

When I put a question to the Minister last week about alternative markets he was very evasive. He would give no information. The Deputy's buyer is the buyer who will buy at his price, if he can put a revolver to my head and take the cattle from me. We had enough of that before. I want to say that under these conditions this motion of mine is a motion that should be accepted by the Government, and if it is not accepted God help the country. I want to say further, with regard to the remission of half the annuities, that we are not going to get half the annuities. I do not think we will get a remission of a quarter of the annuities. Of course, we do not know where we stand in regard to that matter at the moment and I do not think the Government know where they stand either. What is the advantage of the remission of half the annuities to a man who is unable to market his produce, a man who is unable to meet his labour bill at the moment or unable to pay his shop debts? How is he going to educate his family and lead a decent life under conditions of that sort? Within the past fortnight we had the Labour Party in this House trying to make a fight against a wage of 24/- per week on relief schemes in this country. I say that the Labour Party are responsible for what has happened in this country, because it was they who put Fianna Fáil in power and kept them in power. It is as a result of their policy that a man is getting 24/- a week this year, but if he can get 12/- next year he will be a lucky man. The Labour Party is the Party responsible for bringing about this state of affairs.

I think that there is an unanswerable case for the acceptance of the motion. If the President or any responsible Minister would take the trouble, instead of getting information from people who know nothing about the matter, of going around and visiting the fairs and markets of the country, he would see for himself the very sorry conditions that exist down the country. He would accept this motion and he would immediately take steps to recover the one and only market that is worth looking for, to negotiate and stop this economic war and bring us back our markets so as to put us in a position to meet our demands and to rear our families as we think they should be reared. We had a demand in Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney's motion for free seeds and manures for farmers. Let the President look over the list of farmers who received these free seeds and manures last year. The farmers accepted them in good faith and the local authorities gave them in good faith and took it for granted that every farmer who got seeds and manures was going at the end of the harvest to be able to repay the price of them. We have it now stated that the cost of them has not been repaid, and cannot be repaid, because the farmers have not the wherewithal to repay it.

The Minister said, on Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney's motion, that they were prepared to give seeds and manures to farmers who are in want of them. If, last year, the farmer thought he would be in a position to pay and he finds that as a result of last year's foolishness and folly he is unable to pay, he will have, this year, to go out of production because he is not going to add a further load to the impossible load upon him at the moment. I think I have made a good case for the acceptance of this motion. I hope that the Government will give it the consideration that it deserves, that they will not be carried away by any insane or foolish policy, that they will come to realise the conditions that exist in the country and that, as a result of these considerations, they will accept this motion and do what it seeks while the economic war lasts.

I formally second the motion.

It is indeed strange but pleasant to have this brilliant oratory from West Cork. Looking at the whole thing on its merits, it seems as if my friend, Deputy O'Donovan, in the past allowed the roots of the tree to be cut into, leaving it, as it were, to weather the storm, while now he blames the Government for stepping in. What is really the whole issue? The Deputy went into the technicalities and avoided the main issue at stake. What has been the position of the farmers in recent years? I know what the position has been in West Cork. From 1922, they have had shrinking markets. They had only a bit of oats declining year after year. It is easy to look at the technicalities, but what is the real issue. Is it not to weaken the armour of Ireland in the interests of the British Empire? What is England's policy, and why is she persisting in this fight to-day? In 1883, the Lord Lieutenant opened the Cork Show. How did he define British policy in Ireland? He defined British policy in Ireland once and for all. He said: "I congratulate you, but remember that you, magnificent Irish people, must be content with a small population of two and a half or two and three-quarter millions. You can never hope to be an industrial people. You need never hope to be even an intensively agricultural people. The fair lands of Ireland are alone suited to produce beef and mutton for the British Army and Navy. Any extra population you have we can absorb in the great Imperial forces." That is their policy in Ireland, to weaken the armour of this country. What does the whole of this issue amount to? This tree has been cut for the last ten years, and Deputy Cosgrave's Government and his Party backed up the forces who were trying to weaken and blight that tree. Is not that the fact? Was not the policy to weaken this country's armour? Not a hand was lifted to strengthen it.

The Deputy has spoken about pigs. I have an invoice here from Cork which shows a 72 per cent. advance on the price of a little pig weighing 113 lbs. There is not a word about that. Some of Deputy O'Donovan's lieutenants were in the front trenches one time, possibly serving under the flag of another country. How is it that the things they can do to expose the present position of affairs they will not do? If the Deputy wants this invoice he can have it. The Deputy has spoken about this admixture. In the closing stages of the last Government, were we not coming to a position in which Rankes would mill every lb. of meal in England and dump it over here for the benefit of the pig rancher. Does the Deputy not remember that the small man keeping up to half a dozen pigs was fast going off the market? The one thing that stopped that was the admixture of oats and barley in the meal. It gave a chance to the small man—and rightly so.

The Deputy is evidently not aware that Rankes did not manufacture Indian meal at all.

The admixture served the small farmer more than the big farmer.

The Deputy is not aware of the circumstances.

The big pig rancher was going to dominate the whole market. This admixture has stopped it. Why has it stopped it? It is easily seen why it has stopped it. I am not going into the figures. The main thing is that that was stopped by this admixture, which was a brilliant idea. Take the question of cattle? Undoubtedly, the prices are down. But they would have been down even if these circumstances had not arisen. The arguments that have been used are bound to confuse and mislead the people. This Government have to face and realise the position as it is. The fundamental principle is that there can be no retreat from the fight against the attempt to make the will of England dominate the will of Ireland. The farmers who are in the front trenches will either hold them or they will find themselves in the backwoods.

I may relate a little incident that happened in West Cork in the old I.R.A. Council. I put a question regarding the land. I put it at one time to my brother during the civil war. The question was: "What is the position of your Government about the land annuities?" I am not going to belie the dead now or to belie Michael Collins. He said: "We would never have fired a shot for Ireland if it was not for the freedom of the land because it was through the agitation for the land that the whole Volunteer movement started." Why do you not stand united on the whole question? You are asking us now to retreat. That cannot be done. What is the alternative? The alternative is for every man to put his shoulder to the wheel manfully once and for all. I admit that the Government may not be going far enough, as Deputy O'Donovan said, but it is in a different direction that I think they are not going far enough. I ask them to move more quickly in the big reforms—finance for instance—to see that the soldiers in the front trenches are supplied.

To conclude, motions like this undoubtedly are confusing as any honest man on one side or the other can see. You are mixing up a clear fundamental principle with details. You are putting up a position in which you say: "Go and cut the roots of the tree" and then you go back and abuse the man who is not responsible at all. Now is your time, if you are Irishmen, to nurse these trees in one direction and in one direction only. Stand united and say to England, once and for all, "Ireland will win and the day will come when you may be glad to get our cattle and possibly that day may not be far off." You will be strengthening the armour of Ireland not alone against England but against the world and strengthening the position of defence. Increase population and industry. That possibly cannot be achieved in a month or six months or 12 months. How can a tree come to perfection and maturity when the roots are cut? That is what should be considered in all these debates. It is your duty to heal now what you have inflicted in the past.

I am supporting the motion in the name of Deputy O'Donovan, and I propose to approach it from a different aspect from that touched on by the previous speaker. I think that this country, if I am to judge by the speech of Deputy Hales, is suffering from an overdose of high falutin'. The kind of mentality that suggests a speech of the kind we have just listened to is unfortunately too prevalent in the country to-day. The sensible, the sane and the prudent man who advises his people as to their course of action in a crisis, is told if that advice does not coincide with the views of the apostles of high falutin', that he is a traitor and an anti-Irishman, and that he is fighting England's battles. In God's name, will we ever get back to sanity and sit down even in this House and discuss economic problems in the way they should be discussed and not by invoking the names of the dead, of Fionn MacCumhaill, Brian Boru and everybody else? We cannot, apparently, approach these subjects in a sane and sensible manner without working ourselves into paroxysms of rage and enthusiasm on the invocation of some celebrity like Cuchulainn or Brian Boru.

Or Mark Antony.

My experience in the city goes to show that many of the purveyors of seed, fertilisers, etc., are unable to collect from the farmer their lawful debts. The Irish farmer had a world reputation for honesty but, to-day, the Irish farmer, as a result of this economic war, is not in a position to pay his lawful debts. I know many farmers who are actually ashamed to come into the city to-day fearing that they might meet some of their creditors and possibly be asked to square up their debts. Ask any seed or manure merchant in the City of Dublin or the City of Cork how his books stand in relation to the farmer. It will be news, I am sure, and, perhaps, unwelcome news, to the Minister for Agriculture to learn that all over the County of Cork, with very few exceptions, the farmers have almost gone bankrupt. Let us see what the repercussion of this poverty-stricken state of the farmer is on the citizens. Any person walking along the docks in the City of Dublin or Cork will have ample evidence there of the results of this economic war. We have idle dockers; we have unemployed seamen and we have unemployed workers in all departments of industry in the cities as a result of the impoverishment of the farmer.

It is admitted by every Deputy in the House that agriculture is our main industry, and even the ordinary schoolboy in the second or third standard would understand that if our main wealth producer is in an impoverished condition, it must of necessity react on the remainder of the community, represented by 25 per cent. Ask any commercial traveller who is travelling for any of the wholesale houses in Dublin, Cork or Limerick, what is happening in the country. He comes back at week-ends with very few orders, and he will tell you that he can get plenty of orders, but very little money. Take any country town and ask the small shopkeeper there how he stands. He will tell you that, in many cases, there are hundreds of pounds out from him, and in some cases, thousands of pounds, by way of credit, and he sees no hope now of getting any of that money on account of the continuance of this economic war. We have, as I suggested, unemployment becoming more intensified in the cities as a result of the war with our best customers, and the farmer, after all, is not asking for a whole lot in this motion when he suggests that he should be relieved from rates and annuities during this economic war. As a matter of fact, I am already convinced that, whether he is relieved by law or not, he will not be able to meet them. There is an old saying that you cannot get blood out of a turnip, and I do not see how you are going to collect 100 per cent. of rates or annuities from the farmer when he has not got the money.

There is another aspect of the case which I would submit to the Minister for Agriculture. What is the natural reaction on the farmer of decreased markets and uneconomic prices? I would put it to him this way: What would be the reaction of the merchant tailor, for instance, if he were getting no orders and no money for suits of clothes? He would certainly go out of production, and produce only for himself, and my greatest fear, and a well grounded fear, is that the farmer's reaction to present-day economic conditions will be that he will go out of production. As Deputy O'Donovan suggested, he will, of necessity, have to go out of production, because he is selling a finished commodity—a pig or a beast—at a price which does not pay him. His reaction to that state of affairs will be that he will produce only for himself, and it would be very hard to blame him. How will the rest of the community be affected by a change such as that?

It is all very well for the Minister for Agriculture to say that we will have to increase tillage to provide a sufficiency of plain food for our people, but I would remind the Minister that while it may be good policy to preach the hair shirt, and the tightening of the belt, people do not want to wear hair shirts and do not want to tighten their belts. We have gone away from that stage; there is a strong objection on the part of most people to it to-day. There is very strong objection—and some of it may come from the Fianna Fáil Party—to going back to the simple life envisaged by President de Valera. I feel that if we do not grant the farmer the relief sought for in this motion then, whether we like it or not, we will have to accept the fact that he will not be able to pay. Deputy O'Donovan suggested that 40 per cent. of the rates are uncollectable. That is absolutely true and the sooner we face up to that fact the better.

Most of the arguments that can be put forward were used when similar motions came before the House on former occasions and I do not want to labour the question further, except to ask the Minister how does he think the Irish farmer and the working-class people as a whole will be able to pay under the conditions, which are gradually becoming worse, that have resulted from the economic policy of the present Government.

Did not the people tell you all about that at the last general election?

A lot of irresponsibles like the Deputy who has just interrupted tried to do so.

Some of them at two pints of porter apiece.

The fact that the Government refused to use the instruments of the law to punish those who personated in favour of them at the last general election shows how they got their votes.

No such thing! We won the election in a better way than that. The Deputy does not know anything about it, and he should not make these assertions. Deputy Belton opposite said two pints of porter apiece.

Will the Deputy tell the people of North Dublin that?

We are not discussing North Dublin.

He introduced it.

I think the irresponsible Deputy was the first to introduce it, but I do not profess to understand his Northern brogue. This economic war is having effects that are felt far beyond the agricultural community. Anybody who has even a remote connection with charitable organisations, welfare leagues or similar organisations must know that in the cities and the towns the resources of these organisations are taxed to their utmost limit. The sick poor associations, the St. Vincent de Paul Association, and so on, are ample testimony to what I have said. We have a growing number of unemployed in Cork.

Order. The Deputy knows this motion only refers to the agricultural community.

Yes, but may I not say, as I am entitled to say, that this depression in agriculture has its repercussion in the cities and in the towns? Therefore, I ask the Minister to inform the House how long he thinks this economic war is going to last? Will he state what effects it has had already, not only upon the agricultural community, but upon the people of the country as a whole? Deputy O'Donovan referred to the establishment of factories. What are these factories? Factories are established giving employment to numbers of little girls, while the fathers of those girls are walking the streets of Dublin and of Cork, unemployed.

The Deputy has got a great deal of latitude, but surely he cannot bring in these matters under this motion?

I am referring to Deputy O'Donovan's statement.

On a point of order. This motion says: "That, in the opinion of the Dáil the Executive Council should take steps to relieve the agricultural community from rates and annuities during the continuance of the economic war." It does not say that the distress and the depression are confined to the agricultural community. I submit it is perfectly in order for a Deputy to touch upon the general effect of the economic war under this motion.

In that case, we could discuss the effects of the income-tax. The motion is that the Executive Council should take steps to relieve the agricultural community from rates, but whether that would enable us to discuss things unrelated to the motion, is another matter.

Can we not discuss everything that follows from the depression of the agricultural community?

Yes, but we cannot go into the question of unemployment and the rates of wages paid in factories.

Mr. Bourke

On a point of order, is not the Deputy entitled to show, as one of the reasons why this motion should be passed, that the reactions from distress to the agricultural community are so great that they affect the whole community, and to give that as a reason why this House should pass this motion?

Would we be in order in discussing what relief resulted from Deputy MacDermot's subscription, from his winnings in the Sweepstake, to the Roscommon County Council?

That has nothing to do with the motion. I have allowed the Deputy to discuss the effect of rates and annuities upon agricultural depression, but if the Deputy proceeds to discuss the rates of wages and the conditions of employment in factories then there would be no limit to the discussion.

I accept that. I was proceeding to demonstrate what were the reactions and repercussions on the townspeople of the impoverishment of the agricultural community. If you say it is out of order to relate the economic conditions of the townpeople, to-day, to the conditions of the agricultural community then I find myself cribbed, cabined and confined within a very narrow circle. However, I want to give a further instance of the way in which the farmer is impoverished.

It may not be widely known to Deputies, but it is well known to most agriculturists, that many farmers who have vesting orders have vested in them riparian and game rights. I know numbers of farmers who used to derive anything from £50 to £200 per annum out of fishing, not to talk at all of what revenues were derived from the letting of shooting. I know that from Cork to Macroom on the River Lee, many farmers were able to let their fishing rights, and I know that one mile of that fishing has not been let this year. That represents a very serious loss to the farmers to whom I have referred. In addition, it may not be known, either, that these farmers have to pay pretty heavy rates for this fishing. All this is a loss of revenue to the country and, if this economic war is allowed to continue, it will mean that the farmers will have still further losses. For those reasons, amongst others, I beg to support the motion.

I think it ought not to be necessary to stress to this House the impoverished condition, the pitiable plight of the farmers, because I think it is obvious to everybody in the country who is not blinded by political prejudice. The pitiable condition, the plight of the farmers has reacted most disastrously on every member of the community. I am personally aware, and I am sure it is well known to various Deputies, that many honest, thrifty and industrious farmers are at the present time not only unable to pay their rates, but are not in a position to meet their ordinary obligations. It is perfectly true, as Deputy Anthony has pointed out, that many of the farmers are actually afraid to go into the towns lest they may meet their creditors. That is a fact that cannot be denied, at all events so far as County Cork is concerned, and I am sure County Cork is no worse off than any other part of the Saorstát.

When a serious motion of this kind is brought forward, a motion affecting what is admittedly the key industry of the country, it is regrettable that it is not met by any serious arguments from the other side. Here, the other evening, I listened to a speech in reference to another motion and, so far as I remember the arguments that were put up against it, they were to this effect: "Our Party was returned to power by the farmers of the country who know their business a great deal better than any one of their representatives in the House knows it." Of course, that statement is not true, but admitting it is true for the sake of argument, it will be borne in mind by everybody that seven or eight years ago the slogan was that minorities were always right. The watchword to-day is that majorities can never be wrong. I was forcibly reminded, by a remark from a Deputy the other night, that in a place called Jerusalem on a very memorable occasion a highway robber named Barabbas got all the preference votes. It is within the memory of most Deputies that a man named Horatio Bottomley used to get the immense bulk of the votes in the Borough of Hackuey, or somewhere in North London.

Mr. Kelly

What is the inference?

Mr. Burke

The inference is that the majority may be wrong.

Mr. Kelly

I thought the Deputy meant to go further than that.

Mr. Burke

I did not mean to make any comparisons between Barabbas and Bottomley and the members of the Executive Council. I would be sorry to do so.

Dr. Ryan

Do not mind us—make the comparisons with your own side.

Mr. Burke

I do not mean to make any reflections whatsoever. I never said an offensive word to anyone and I do not mean to.

Dr. Ryan

Do not mind us—keep the comparisons on your own side.

Mr. Burke

I am merely endeavouring in my humble way to answer the arguments put up from the other side in reference to a motion which was cognate to the motion now before us. We were told here by, I think, Deputy Flinn that we were all pessimists on this side of the House, that we were all donning the mantle of Jeremiah who, like Deputy Flinn himself, was the greatest publicity agent of his time and probably the greatest poseur Jerusalem ever produced. But he did not go so far as to say that we were putting on the robe of Cassandra. I am an unrepentant optimist. I hope I will not hurt Deputy Flinn, because he is a man for whose ability I have the greatest admiration, although he is a master of flouts, jibes and jeers, by saying that if he lived in ancient times, in the days of ancient glory, he would be a master amongst Sophists, who had the reputation of being able to make the worse appear the better reason.

I am sure Deputy Flinn will not take it in an offensive spirit when I say that I am optimistic enough to think I could make a profit by buying a barrel of cured herrings from Deputy Flinn and selling them to a New York Jew. We were told we will have to get rid of our cattle. Having got a long dissertation about chilled meat, we were told that we should get rid of our cattle. That reminded me of a classical story. Some of you may have read Homer. There was a character named Ajax and he got it into his head that all the sheep were his enemies. Apparently Deputy Flinn has got it into his head that the cattle are his enemies. I am quite satisfied that Deputy Flinn is perfectly sincere. I believe he actually has an implicit belief in what he has stated. But sincerity is not always the test of merit. Why, the sincerest man I ever met in my life was in a mental home. He was perfectly convinced that he was the square root of minus one. He really believed it, but he was not the square root of minus one.

Do not think you are.

Mr. Burke

Nobody would accuse the Deputy of being the square root of minus one. It seems to me that the outstanding qualification for a seat on the Executive Council, with the possible exception of Dr. Ryan, is to be absolutely and abysmally ignorant of agriculture.

It is now 2 o'clock and perhaps the Deputy will move the adjournment of the debate.

Mr. Burke

I beg to move the adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned accordingly.
Barr
Roinn