With regard to Section 2, I would like to ask the Minister if, now that he has got a few days between himself and the rather political frame of mind in which he discussed the idea in this Bill on the last occasion, he can give the House some comments arising out of more recent consideration as to what kind of representation he thinks persons should have in respect of the very large amount of rates that they pay in connection with commercial property. The commercial register was established to give a representation to the commercial community that would bear some relation to their position. They should have, it was felt, some kind of representation on the Dublin Council arising out of the fact that they pay a very considerable amount of rates on commercial property, rates that are in no way otherwise represented on the Council.
Local Government (Dublin) Bill, 1933.—Committee Stage.
I am quite satisfied that under the law as it will be amended, the commercial community will get all the representation they are entitled to and probably more than they will seek, judging by the experience at municipal elections in recent times. They can have votes as ordinary citizens. They can exercise the franchise and can exercise their influence to the fullest extent on the Municipal Council under the system that will prevail when the existing franchise is amended by the passage of this Bill.
Does the Minister not realise that if men in the commercial life of the city do not seek representation for their class on the Council in the way the Minister thinks they should, it is because he and his colleagues drag across the general work of city administration the question of Party polities, and that no person apparently can go before the electors in the City of Dublin, during the coming election particularly, without having to have turned against him the whole machinery and all the political guns of the Fianna Fáil Party?
Does the Minister not realise that the ordinary business man, who looks on the administration of the City from a business point of view, is well aware that if it is not carried out on a business basis the interests not only of the commercial fraternity in the City, but also of the working people, are going to be damaged? I submit that the Minister is quite unfair to the commercial community when he charges them with not being interested enough in the management of the city to seek election on the Council. It is the actions of the Minister and his colleagues, the tactics they adopt with regard to representation on local bodies, that have made responsible and prominent members of the business community rather shy of placing themselves before the electorate for a place on the City Council.
I would like the Minister, when he is considering the plea made by Deputy Mulcahy—if there is any danger that he might accept it— to consider also the protection of this particular class in whom Deputy Mulcahy is suddenly interested, so that in any General Election in connection with this House they will be given a special status and offered the possibility of being able to cut in here without the guns of this Party or the machine guns of the Deputy's Party being turned on them. Deputy Mulcahy must realise that this system of a special privilege to a certain class in the case of any municipal election, or for that matter in the case of a national Government, was never heard of until he, as Minister for Local Government, introduced it. He was then trying to bring about the position where certain people would be given extra rights in municipal administration to be followed, possibly, if his idea proved acceptable, in national Government.
The Deputy mentioned that the Minister and his colleagues were the main cause of this class legislation. I would remind the Deputy that it was he who first introduced this idea of special legislation. Probably he thought he was going to maintain a majority by the introduction of the new system. The Deputy should realise that what he is now appealing to the Minister for is ridiculous. His arguments are based on fallacies. He introduced the original measure and he gave a particular class special facilities before there was any municipal authority at all based on the partly restored rights of Dublin citizens. I hope the Minister will indicate that not only is this step towards democracy being gone on with, but that in a short space of time we will have civic administration restored in its entirety and that the people will be given their adequate share of responsibility for the administration of the city's affairs.
It is quite evident that business men will have very little chance of getting elected after the pronouncements we have heard in this House. It was stated here that the Fianna Fáil Party have a poor representation at present on the City Council, no more than five or six members, but that after the next election they would have far more. In my opinion there will be little chance for the particular type of citizen in question, the representative of the commercial community, getting elected to the Corporation, because such a person will not stoop to the methods of personation we have heard of.
On a point of order. That statement has been made here on several occasions. Is it in order for the Deputy to state that the members of the Corporation, some of whom are here, got their seats through personation?
I said no such thing. The Deputy is simply trying to draw a red herring across the track, but I will not allow him to do it.
In reply to the point of order, no personal charges were made. Political charges of a very aggravating nature may be made and still be in order.
Is there anything more aggravating as a charge against the Fianna Fáil Party in what Deputy O'Connor is saying than was brought in in the course of the statement made by Deputy Kelly last Friday?
It was Deputy Kelly I had in mind when I said that a certain person got up in the House the other day and said that at the next election they would have a larger membership in the Dublin Corporation because they intended to vote early and often.
Mr. Kelly
I did not say anything of the sort.
That is on the records against you.
Mr. Kelly
Read it if you have it.
We have it all right.
I think in all fairness to the businessmen in the city that it is only right that the commercial register should be retained; otherwise I do not see any possible chance of businessmen getting elected to the Dublin Corporation.
Last night Deputy Briscoe argued that the voluntary hospitals should be controlled to a certain extent by this State because, he argued, that the State contributed large sums of money to these hospitals. To-day he argues in the reverse strain and holds that people with property who contribute large sums of money to the running of the municipal administration are not to have decent and honest representation. I do not see the consistency of the two arguments.
Are you talking of Kildare or of Dublin when you speak of honest administration?
He is not talking of the Naas sausage factory.
Did you ever do anything to give employment to anybody?
When this proposal was brought forward originally it was not the suggestion of businessmen that it should appear in this particular form. All businessmen said was that they paid, through the medium of limited liability companies, more than a moiety of the city rates, and they asked for representation following on the payment of these rates. That principle is admitted by every country in Europe: that where a large volume of rates is paid representation in the municipal authority should follow. It is not necessary to argue that principle, which has the support of every Deputy. Whatever may be said about local government in this country, everybody agrees that local government is carried out by those who pay the rates. If Deputy Briscoe says that the people whom he speaks for pay all the rates, then I am quite satisfied that they should get all the representation. I question that statement, however, and if the Deputy will look up the figures given by the then Minister for Local Government when the Act was passing through the Dáil some years ago, he will find that limited liability companies paid more than a moiety of the rates to the Dublin Corporation. All business people ask is that if they pay this volume of rates, about which there can be no question because the figures are on the records of the House, they should be entitled to representation in some form. If the particular form adopted by the former Government is not acceptable, then let the Deputy put forward some other proposal. So long as they get representation that is all they ask for. If they pay this large volume of rates, they are entitled to representation. As I said, that is accepted by every other civilised State. It is too late in the day to argue the point. It is only giving to businessmen what is their due when you give representation of this kind.
We spoke on the Second Reading about the difficulty of businessmen getting representation on the Corporation. Let me say on behalf of businessmen that they are quite anxious to share the burden of local government. If they are wanted, they are quite willing to come forward. If they cannot get elected, they are satisfied to remain silent. That does not affect the issue. The issue here is a return in the way of votes for taxation. All I say is that, if you are to give businessmen their due, you should give them these votes. The people whom Deputy Briscoe speaks for get their votes through the property qualification.
By being ratepayers.
Yes. These limited liability companies are ratepayers and they ask only what is their due, the same as Deputy Briscoe's representatives get by being ratepayers. We do not ask anything more or less. That is our due and we are entitled to it. If this particular form of representation is not acceptable, give us some other form. We are not wedded to this particular form, but we are entitled to representation in some form.
In view of what has passed in the discussion, I think it is relevant and proper to read the paragraph in Column 1071 of the Official Reports, Volume 47, in which Deputy Kelly said:—
"They will get elected hands down, if we are to believe all the statements made here regarding the way Fianna Fáil members were elected. At any rate, personation would be no harm. It is a good turn. If a man is dead and you knew the opinions he held while alive, what harm would it be to vote for him? If a poor man is sick in hospital and not able to get out, surely it is a good turn to see that his vote is registered. If he has gone away and his neighbours know his opinions, I do not see any harm in personation. I think I encouraged a lot of that class of thing in my day."
Permit me to interpolate that I am quite sure he did.
Mr. Kelly
Quite so.
And a great many of his friends and colleagues did as much.
Mr. Kelly
Do not bring that into it.
Deputy Kelly continued:
"At one time I saw that the Lord Chief Justice of Northern Ireland voted right—the first time in his life that he voted right. He did not get up early enough and he waited for his breakfast before he came to the polling station. When he went into the booth he found that he had been voted for. He was very indignant, but he should have got up early and not minded his breakfast.
At this juncture Deputy Mulcahy intervened to ask: "Are we to take these as instructions to Fianna Fáil candidates in the Dublin elections"? Deputy Kelly replied:
"Yes; vote early and often and maybe the cry will not then come from the benches opposite that we only returned five or six members. We may return a great many more."
A Deputy
Have a sense of humour.
I have a sense of humour, but I think it is very necessary that these words should be put upon record; that we should remember them; and that we should make careful note of the general demeanour of the Deputy's colleagues in this House when he makes a declaration of that kind. I have no doubt that Deputy Kelly, as he always does in this House, spoke frankly the truth. I only hope that when his colleagues hear the truth spoken and realise how shocking it is that they will mend their ways not only in local government elections, but in parliamentary elections as well.
Only last week we had Deputy Dillon himself making the mistake of going into the wrong Lobby.
Tá
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