Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 1 Jun 1933

Vol. 47 No. 18

In Committee on Finance. - Vote 52—Agriculture.

Mr. Ruttledge

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £276,950 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1934, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Talmhaíochta agus seirbhísí áirithe atá fé riara na hOifige sin, maraon le hIldeontaisí i gCabhair.

That a sum not exceeding £276,950 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1934, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Agriculture and of certain services administered by that Office, including sundry Grants-in-Aid.

Mr. Dillon

I take it the Minister for Agriculture is going to make some introductory comments on this Estimate.

Dr. Ryan

I was waiting to hear what the Deputies may have to say first.

Mr. Dillon

I do not blame the poor Minister. I would not envy him his job to discuss agriculture generally on this estimate at the present time. I take it that it is not the purpose of the Minister to give any general survey of the agricultural situation at present; that he forbears to do so because he is afraid to reveal the facts. I do not blame him; but I think it might be very well, before the Minister comes to the House for the purpose of securing a very considerable sum of money—£415,450—to protect his patient during the next 12 months, to tell us, as an introduction, what the present condition of the patient is. I do not think £415,450 will save agriculture in this year. If you multiply that sum by ten and then multiply it again I doubt that it would even be enough to save agriculture during the next 12 months, if the economic war continues. However, I suppose, another opportunity will arise to discuss the question more generally and I want to deal with a few details that arise on the Vote. I spoke here before with reference to the agricultural instructors who are stationed here and there through the country. I suggest to the Minister that if he wants to disseminate amongst ordinary farmers the discoveries that are made in the research done under his Department he must change the system under which the instructors are working. There are a number of persons scattered up and down the country who are supposed to be there for the purpose of advising farmers. My experience is that the average small farmer looks on the advice of these men with suspicion. He looks upon it with suspicion because he doubts whether these men are practical farmers. In some cases, I think, there are very good grounds for that doubt.

What I always ambitioned was that we should effect an economy and, at the same time, make those men more effective. No lesson is so effective to a farmer as a demonstration. You may tell a man to put a certain proportion of superphosphate of lime, sulphate of ammonia, and muriate of potash on his grass and, if he is a civil man, he will listen and go away and put on the superphosphate alone, because his neighbours do it, and he is not going to be out of the ordinary. But, if you can induce one man in a village to improve the mixture of manures he is putting on his meadows, or any other crop, you will find in the following year three or four men coming in from that village and asking to get the mixture that their neighbour got. You might have been talking to these three or four men for months and you would have made no impression on them; but they quietly watch the result of their neighbour's experiment and when they have visual proof of its effectiveness they follow in his footsteps. In passing, I think it would be a source of edification to the farming community if they saw the condition of the Fianna Fáil Benches during the discussion of the Agricultural Estimate—the intelligent countenances, the eager interest, the zealous industry we observe. One wonders that the Minister is able to find a place on the benches.

Dr. Ryan

I do not blame them for leaving.

Mr. Dillon

Neither do I. To observe the public humiliation of their spokesman would be a painful task even for Fianna Fáil members.

Dr. Ryan

To have to listen to the Deputy.

Mr. Dillon

He is the first Minister for Agriculture who ever got up to introduce an Estimate without daring to reveal to the House what the effect of his policy was on the industry for which he is responsible. There are three members of the Fianna Fáil Party present.

Mr. T. Kelly

All farmers.

Mr. Dillon

All farmers. I suggest to the Minister with reference to these agricultural instructors that if they were provided with a small holding in the area where they live, and where it was possible for the Minister to acquire one by negotiation, these men could put into operation on the holding the advice that they are giving to the small farmers of the area. If the advice is good advice these men ought to be able to make, in normal times, when Cathleen Ní Houlihán is not on the rampage, a modest income from that small holding, as good an income as any other tenant farmer can make. A Deputy remarks that it would take an expert to make it now. I think it would take a miracle. I stipulate, however, that my proposals only apply to the time when Cathleen Ní Houlihán is not on the rampage. By that means, I think, we could achieve results which would mean that a part at least of these men's salaries would be paid by the revenue from the farm on which they live and, in every area where they live and they gave advice to a farmer and he questioned it, or showed his reluctance to take it, they could ask him to come and look at the effects of putting the advice into operation. That, to my mind, is the most conclusive and effective argument they could put forward. The answer has been made that demonstration work should be reserved for the Model Farm at Glasnevin and the research colleges. That is all wrong, because Glasnevin has not demonstration plots. Glasnevin is a research place, and the very nature of an experiment is that it may fail. You want to have a place where you can make experiments, some of which will fail, some of which will succeed; but, after that, you want a place where you can take out successful experiments and demonstrate them to the public. That is what I want these inspectors to do.

I shall be interested to hear from the Minister if he has had any report recently, and if that report is available to Deputies and the public, on the activities taking place in the Botanic Gardens. I think a very great deal of useful work might be done there in the examination of plant diseases, etc. I do not know whether it is being done. I think a great deal of useful work might be done there in conjunction with the schools in the city here. I do not know whether it is being done. I imagine that we have there in the director at least one man of distinction in botanical matters. I have no doubt that there are other men there of considerable distinction. I should, however, be interested to hear what they are doing for the purpose of disseminating the special knowledge that they have at their disposal. I would also be interested to hear whether the gardens in general are being kept at a sufficiently high standard. I think that these gardens ought to be a horticultural example for everybody who goes there, and I must say that although parts of them are very attractive, other parts have struck me as being capable of considerable improvement. I think it is a very desirable thing that a garden of that kind, which is, after all, our horticultural showpiece, should be an example of what we can do in that kind of business. I must say that as a showpiece I do not think the botanical gardens at the present moment are a very striking achievement.

Under the Department of Agriculture there is a scheme whereby people with cattle which they suspect of being tubercular can notify an officer, whom I think is in the employment of the local authority, and have that animal destroyed. I think that is principally set on foot for the purpose of limiting the spread of tuberculosis amongst children, because what frequently happened was that when cows which were particularly good milkers developed menacing symptoms the people were trying to cover them up, and milk the cow as long as she would last rather than destroy her, as they ought to do. What I suggest to the Minister is that the veterinary officer ought to be given power to give a more generous compensation the sooner he is summoned to see the cow. There ought to be some inducement offered to the people to bring the veterinary officer the moment there is reasonable ground for suspecting that the cow is affected. At present the compensation for the destruction of animals under this tuberculosis scheme is very low, and is apparently based on the assumption that nothing is destroyed but a cow in the last stage of emaciation. It is very difficult to get a small farmer to invite the destruction of a good-looking cow, and then get only £2 or £3 compensation. It would be very much better if we could afford to give a more generous compensation where the farmer brought the veterinary officer to inspect the cow in the very early stages of the disease, or when he first suspected it.

The Minister will correct me if I am wrong when I say that under this Vote I think there comes the operations of the Agricultural and Technical Instruction Committees.

Dr. Ryan

Only the Agricultural Committee.

Mr. Dillon

They used to be one Committee. Has the Technical Committee now been transferred to another Department?

Mr. Belton

The Vocational Committee has been transferred to another Department.

Mr. Dillon

In the old days they used to be together, and could be discussed on this Vote. Certainly my feeling when I was a member of a Technical and Agricultural Committee was that a great deal of money that was made available for those committees was being wasted on all sorts of hairbrained schemes. I must say that I imagine that the most pernicious of those schemes are now being administered under the Educational Committee. We were providing a comparatively small amount of money, but small sums of money in great abundance, for every kind of cranky concern. I think the Department should give scope for a closer survey of all schemes that are set on foot under these local committees for education, whether it be agricultural education or vocational education. I believe that there is a considerable leakage of money, and that it is being frittered away and wasted on useless enterprises. If that money could all be mobilised, something really useful could be done. I think the Minister ought to insist on a very careful survey being made of the work that these committees are doing, and that they should be regulated and reformed if necessary.

I want to touch on something that presents a constant difficulty here, and that is the question of the old drainage boards. Those extraordinary bodies are apparently under the jurisdiction of no Department of State. Though they have a kind of bowing acquaintance with the Board of Works, the Board of Works angrily disclaims any responsibility for them. I propose, under the general heading of agriculture, to suggest to the Minister that there is a considerable sum of money being wasted every year by those old drainage boards, that some Department of State which is interested in agriculture ought to get hold of and use usefully. Drainage is a very necessary undertaking in the country, and it is essentially one which is in the interests of agriculture. I do strongly urge the Minister to take some steps, in consultation with the Minister for Finance, to get control of the old drainage boards and the cess that they are entitled to levy.

Mr. Belton

On a point of order, I think that has been done.

Mr. Dillon

It has not been done. I will explain to Deputy Belton what has been done. There was an Act passed here some time ago, under, I think, the ægis of Deputy Hogan, which gave the Board of Works the right to go in and restore to its original condition a drainage scheme, and then hand it over to the county council.

Mr. Belton

I do not think there are any of those old boards in existence.

Mr. Dillon

There are dozens of them.

Mr. Belton

Are they under the Board of Works?

Mr. Dillon

They are under nobody. They are scattered all over the country and the money is being frittered away.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is some thing to be said for the Deputy's point of order, but the matter is as relevant on this Vote as on any other. That is the difficulty. It does not come directly under the Board of Works Vote nor under the Land Commission Vote.

Mr. Dillon

The difficulty is we cannot bring them under any Vote directly, but there is power for the Board of Works to secure them, recondition them, and hand them over to the county council. I am not satisfied that it was ever a good plan, because drainage did not seem to be in the line of the local bodies, and the tendency was to ignore them in certain parts of the country after they had got them over. What I would rather see is those drainage schemes, all of which were useful in their own way in their particular district, put in good condition, taken under the charge either of the Department of Agriculture, the Land Commission or the Board of Works, maintained regularly, and some value consequently given to the people who are paying the annual cess with which their land is charged. I mention the subject to-day because the trouble is that nobody wants them, and yet it would be a real benefit to the small farmers in the country if the Minister would make it his concern to deal with them.

The Estimate for forestry is not being discussed at the moment?

An Ceann Comhairle

Not on this Vote.

Mr. Dillon

Again, I want to make an inquiry. The Minister has certain powers to restrict the cutting of trees. Does that come under the Forestry Estimate or under the general powers of the Minister for Agriculture?

An Ceann Comhairle

It comes under Forestry.

Mr. Dillon

Now I come to refer briefly to the Agricultural Produce Eggs Act and the way it operates. I would like, first of all, to pay a tribute to Deputy Hogan, I do not often do that, but there is no doubt that the work he did in connection with the egg industry in this country saved that industry from destruction. But like many another thing he put his hand to he was not content with going a certain distance. When he got his hand on the egg industry he could not resist putting his hand upon the throat of the egg industry and proceeding to strangle it slowly with regulations. A great many of the regulations were good and helped greatly to save the industry. But this difficulty has arisen, and it is one that makes the proper conduct of this trade practically impossible, and that is the departmental definition of a "trade egg." Any man shipping eggs in this country is faced with this difficulty, that there is an indeterminate definition of what is a "trade egg." One man takes one view, and another man takes another view. There is no conclusive test. I should explain that "trade egg" is a technical term for stale egg.

Mr. Belton

It depends on the particular trader.

Mr. Hogan (Galway):

Any egg, a fresh egg!

Mr. Dillon

I will not split hairs about the matter.

Mr. Hogan

I say a perfectly fresh egg could be a trade egg.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy differentiates between stale and fresh. I would prefer to differentiate between stale and good.

Mr. Hogan

A new laid egg could be a trade egg.

Mr. Dillon

I suggest we need not get into a discussion about that matter now.

Mr. Hogan

It is your point; it was you began discussing it. It is plain that there is no full definition of a trade egg, but I could give one.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy could not, and he knows he could not, because he knows it does not exist.

Mr. Hogan

Give me a chance and in one sentence I will do it.

Mr. Dillon

You could not, and nobody else could. There are, of course, different varieties of trade eggs if anybody likes to ring the changes upon that aspect, and nobody likes more so to ring the changes upon that aspect of the question than the officials of the Department of Agriculture. But the type of trade egg that causes most difficulty is the stale egg.

Mr. Bennett

The election egg.

Mr. Dillon

I advise the Deputy to keep out of this. A situation has arisen that presses very heavily upon the exporter. He buys eggs of a selected grade for commercial purposes. They are fresh eggs of the requisite weight, and they are packed and shipped from the country. They arrive in Dublin on the morning after the packing, and they are conveyed to the quays probably next morning; a case is drawn from the consignment by the Department's expert; the eggs are examined, from 48 to 72 hours after their despatch from the store of the consignor. Now it is quite possible that an egg which was perfectly sound when shipped from the consignor's store, would have become what some Department's inspector would call a trade egg 72 hours later. There is no ingenuity in the wit of man that will protect it against that; nothing he can do can protect him against that possibility. Now if that happened the Department's inspector can confiscate the case of eggs. If it happened more than once the Department's inspector can proceed to deprive that man of his licence.

I have no complaint whatever to make about imposing rigorous penalty upon anybody who consciously and deliberately breaks the regulations, because one should never injure the reputation of our egg industry. I sympathised with the Minister when prescribing rigorous regulations, but what is not fair is that a man should be punished by deprivation of his means of livelihood for something which he cannot possibly avoid. I challenge any inspector, or Deputy Hogan, to say how any man could avoid that dilemma. I know he could not. That is one aspect of the situation. The other aspect of the situation is this: What is the Department trying to do to eliminate the "trade egg" from the egg trade of this country? That is one of the most difficult problems to any man engaged in the egg shipping trade. I remember one time there was some kind of official enquiry started, and I think the West of Ireland Egg Distributors Association made some suggestions. But nothing was done. I ask this: that the Department should furnish the Minister with an estimate of the annual loss occasioned to the industry by the incidence of "trade eggs." I think if that loss were estimated it would astonish everyone to discover the size of the sum so lost every year as a result of the incidence of "trade eggs." With that information in his possession, I believe the Minister would be prepared to take more rigorous measures to explain to the people how the "trade egg" arises, and what should be done to avoid it. It is a highly technical question, and one not suitable for discussion here. Indeed it could not be properly discussed here. But I draw the Minister's attention to the fact that it is an enormous source of annual loss, and would mean a great advantage to country women's incomes if the trade egg could be got rid of.

The shipper has to buy eggs from the people. He knows that he will lose certain portions as trade eggs, and he has to scale down the price or eggs all round in order to make allowance for the loss that he will make on "trade eggs." It has been suggested that one way out of the difficulty would be to compel every shipper to buy according to grade. I do not believe that could be done. You would have one man who wanted to do that, and some other fellow who wanted to do a kind of shebeen trade when he knew the inspector was not in town, and unless you had the Civic Guard stationed at every shop door you could not secure that eggs would be bought according to grade. I do not want to delay the House with a long discussion upon the technical aspect in that particular. But I assure Deputies that my practical experience of the trade convinces me that it is absolutely impossible to enforce regulations that would compel shippers to buy by grade. The only effect would be that the shipper who wanted to conform to the regulation would be squeezed out by the fellow who wanted to break the law. As I said before, the question is a very highly technical one.

Mr. Hogan (Galway):

Is it a technical question?

Mr. Dillon

It is a very highly technical question. I have discussed it with officials of the Department of Agriculture and I can assure the Deputy that it is a technical question.

Mr. Hogan

Which of the old regulations would you change? You complain that some of them were wrong. Which of them would you change?

Mr. Dillon

Most emphatically, I would change the regulation that gave power to the officer at the port to confiscate a package of selected eggs in which he discovered trade eggs, unless and until the Department was in a position to explain to every shipper how the inclusion of trade eggs could be effected.

Mr. Hogan

What would you put in place of that regulation?

Mr. Dillon

With all due respect to the Deputy, sir, I do not think that it is consistent with the prudent conduct of this House for Deputy Hogan and myself to conduct a little private debate here as to what regulations he and I might make. The Minister for Agriculture is the person to discuss the point with. I remember that, when Deputy Hogan was Minister for Agriculture, he was not so anxious to get independent views as he seems to be to get them now.

Mr. Hogan

But I am not getting them now. This is the place to get them.

Mr. Dillon

It is no such thing. If we are to discuss every little technical point that arises, it is not three or four days of the week that Dáil Eireann will have to sit but every day and night for the 12 months of the year. Plenty of information was placed at the disposal of Deputy Hogan when he was Minister for Agriculture and he did nothing. I think he was going to do something, possibly. Perhaps he was hatching over it.

Mr. Hogan

I see no way out of the difficulty, and the Deputy does not see any way out of it either.

Mr. Dillon

I do. I made suggestions to the Deputy when he was Minister and there was nothing done about it.

Mr. Hogan

I do not remember receiving these suggestions.

Mr. Dilon

I will remind the Deputy of them outside, and perhaps I will refresh his memory. Representations were made—and I think the present Minister will probably find them in his files—and they were made by the West of Ireland Egg Shippers Federation at the request of the then Minister. I also made representations frequently to the Minister's officers in charge of that division, and I discussed it with them frequently. The Deputy may now forget that. At that time he was an exalted Minister of State and I was a humble egg-packer, and the natural diffidence, which is my characteristic, forbade me bombarding the Minister with questions.

Mr. Hogan

You have me there all right!

Mr. Dillon

I do suggest to the Minister for Agriculture that there is a very fertile field here for useful work in his Department, and if we ever recover our markets I believe a substantial added sum would be put into the pockets of the people by certain reforms that ought to be carried out under these Egg Acts. At present the egg business is shattered by the economic war. The price of eggs has never been so low since the famine. However, I know that the Minister is sick of hearing that with regard to every part of his Department. I think he ought to improve the gloomy outlook by putting in some hard work in an examination of the entire egg trade, and in a consideration of its importance and, instead of setting up a committee to examine the pig industry, if he set up a committee to examine the egg industry, it would be much better.

Mr. T. Kelly

And still the Deputy complains of empty benches after all that!

Mr. Bennett

I think we ought to expect from the Minister some defence of his Department when considering this Estimate. Every Deputy—and there is a number of Deputies now at the back of the Minister, I think there are five in the Fianna Fáil Party— in the Fianna Fáil Party realises, and as fully as we do on this side of the House, what the conditions of agriculture are at the moment and what they have been for the last six months. We did expect from the Minister some explanation of the course he proposes to adopt to make those conditions better. I do not suppose the Minister is to be blamed, personally, for the economic war, but he is one of the Ministry who are, in fact, responsible for it. I do not intend to go into the effects of the economic war on the agricultural situation. Everybody knows what these effects are. What I do intend to refer to is what the Minister proposes to do, if not to end the war, at least to help the farmer to exist until it is ended.

Mr. Belton

Issue a mandamus order.

Mr. Bennett

That might be one way.

Mr. Belton

It is the best way.

Mr. Bennett

The Minister never did appear to be enamoured of the policy of live stock. His ideas of agriculture are altogether on opposite lines—the development of cereals as against live stock. One would like to know what prospect the Minister has, within a reasonable time, of so changing our agricultural experience that we will arrive at the time when we will have very few cattle and a great amount of tillage. I should like to suggest to the Minister, anyhow, that until we do come to such a situation where we will not need a very big market for our live stock, he should help us to carry on with what we have and that, as we find it very difficult to sell our cattle at any price, the Minister, in conjunction with his advisers, should consider—I know that Deputy Dillon gave the Minister many things to consider but I would ask him to consider this—what alternative type or breed of animal we might successfully exploit in lieu of cattle. The Minister might make some possible explanations along that line. We were promised alternative markets, but they have not come so far. Perhaps it is that the live animals we produce at present are not suitable. It should be part of the policy of the Government, if that is so, to help us to produce the type of animal of some breed that would be necessary to keep these markets.

Deputy Dillon spoke of experiments on the mixing of the different manures for suitable lands. I think the Minister should put in some provision to use manure of any kind. If the Minister looks up the statistics for the last six or seven months he will find that the use of any sort of manure has decreased tremendously.

Mr. Dillon

I did not ask the Minister to set on foot experiments with regard to manures. The Department has done excellent work on that, and the information is available for anybody that wants it. The difficulty is that the people are not asking for the information.

Mr. Belton

What information is available?

Mr. Dillon

If the Deputy asks the Department for it he will get information in abundance.

Mr. Bennett

At any rate, the fact remains that in certain districts, because of the policy of the Government, farmers are unable to dispose of their produce and thus obtain money to purchase manures and, as a result, the lands are not being manured. It is the duty of the Minister to come to the assistance of those farmers because otherwise the lands will be allowed to deteriorate and in future years they will be quite useless for any purpose. Deputy Dillon spoke a good deal about drainage. Drainage is one of the most important subjects we could speak of here. I think in this matter, too, the Minister should come to the assistance of the farmers. I am not now talking about main drainage. I have in mind ordinary farm drainage. During the last six or seven months practically no drainage work was undertaken by the small farmers. They were unable to do it. As a matter of fact, they had not the money to procure labourers to do the work. As a result, moderately good lands are being covered with rushes and they will eventually be of no use. If the present conditions last for two or three years the Minister's policy in regard to developing large wheat areas will be simply futile because there will be no suitable land on which to grow wheat.

I think the Minister should give serious attention to these matters. We cannot export our live stock except at a tremendous loss. Some of us export them even at a loss in order to get rid of them. The Minister, in conjunction with his colleagues in the Government, might arrange some form of tax which would be of assistance to the farming community. I am not keen on taxes, but in this instance it is a case of needs must when the devil drives. Let us take wool for example. Last year it was sold at 3d. to 5d. a lb. We will soon reach the wool season. I suggest some little tax might be imposed in the case of wool with the object of benefiting the farmer. It is impossible to sell sheep, but there is a chance that the farmer will be able to sell his wool. The Government might insist on the use of Irish wool in the making of cloth and the price paid to the farmer for the wool could be increased by, say, 100 per cent. With their great reputation for imposing taxes and tariffs, that should not be altogether outside the bounds of possibility for the present Ministry.

Deputy Dillon spoke about the need that exists for the proper treatment of tuberculosis in cattle. A lot might be done in normal times to stamp out this disease. I suggest to the Minister that at the moment, in regard to tubercular cows, there is really no need for making advances for special treatment. What he should do is to pay the unfortunate farmer some fee in order to get rid of the beast. It would be the cheapest way out of it.

Mr. Dillon

That is precisely what I advocated, that the more generous the allowance that would be made the sooner would the destruction of the beast be invited.

Mr. Bennett

I would do away with the need for the veterinary surgeon and I would give the farmer some small amount to get rid of the beast. Incidentally, the farmer could get rid of a few beasts apart from the tubercular beast, because at the moment there are many animals for which a farmer will get only a few shillings. This would also give an opportunity for employing labour. If I had tubercular cattle I would employ someone to kill them. In that way a little help would be given to others. I do not know how the veterinary surgeon would live in the meanwhile, but the Minister will have to consider that, too.

I think greater sums should be expended in relation to the prevention of abortion. Farmers suffer their greatest losses through abortion. I will pay the Minister the compliment that he has made a great effort to sustain the dairying industry, but notwithstanding all his effort, abortion is counteracting a lot of the good that is being done. The farmers' losses through abortion are so great that no matter what price he gets for milk it will not pay him. Much greater sums should be spent in relation to this particular matter. Any money expended would be very wisely expended.

In connection with this Vote I might suggest possible reductions, and I might make many other suggestions. One must have special regard, however, for the failure of the Minister to give some adequate explanation of his policy during the last 12 months. We are living through a period of utter hopelessness from the point of view of the ordinary farmer. It is to be hoped that as a result of the remarks made here in connection with this Vote the Minister will be induced to make some allusions to his agricultural policy. It may be that some adventurous Fianna Fáil farmer Deputy will venture to give his views on the matter. I hope we shall hear something from Fianna Fáil Deputies about existing agricultural conditions. The Minister should, at least, give some idea of how the farmer is expected to carry on until such time as the policy of reducing the carrying of stock and having a universal growing of grain is carried into effect. The Minister should make some attempt to defend his policy. Surely he knows the condition of agriculture at the moment and the hopeless position of the farmer. It is his duty so to arrange matters so that the farmers' difficulties will be relieved to the very utmost. We believe no effort is being made in that direction. We hold that the economic war is the main source of the farmers' difficulties.

Mr. Donnelly

Are there no people in this country only farmers?

Mr. O'Donovan

No one worth talking about.

Mr. Bennett

The Minister may not be able to end the economic war. There were rumours that he had intentions in that direction, but whether they were true or not I do not know. He may not be able to do it himself, but he has influence with his colleagues, and possibly his influence would have some effect on them even at the eleventh hour, knowing, as he does, that the effects of this war must be disastrous to those who have to carry on the agricultural industry in this country. Unless the work of the country must come to an end, and unless agriculture is to be ruined, the Minister should take some such steps. But if he does not see his way to end this or help to end it, then it is his duty to take some steps more effective than he has done in the last 12 months to sustain the farmer. I think it is disrespectful towards this House that a Vote of this kind should be introduced, and that the responsible Minister should fail to get up and make a statement such as Ministers usually make when introducing an Estimate.

Mr. Hogan (Galway)

With regard to some of the details pointed out I do not think this question of trade eggs is such a technical question as Deputy Dillon seems to think. What is that question? There are regulations at the moment that trade eggs shall not be exported except as trade eggs. That is what the regulation amounts to, and that is the regulation to which Deputy Dillon refers.

Mr. Dillon

Did the Deputy say that trade eggs shall not be exported?

Mr. Hogan

Yes, except as trade eggs. That is the regulation the Deputy complains of. He says that regulation should be withdrawn. If that regulation were withdrawn it would stand to reason that trade eggs could be exported as extra selected eggs.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy has misquoted me, and having misquoted me he twists my remarks.

Mr. Hogan

I did not profess to quote the Deputy. Therefore, I could not misquote him. He was speaking of the regulation. The regulation amounts to this—that trade eggs shall be exported only as trade eggs and Deputy Dillon says he wants that regulation withdrawn.

Mr. Dillon

I said no such thing.

Mr. Hogan

That is what I understood the Deputy wanted. He began by saying that while there were certain good things done for the egg industry there were some most objectionable regulations in force.

Mr. Dillon

If the Deputy wants to know what I said I will tell him. I said the regulations have made it possible for an inspector of the Department to confiscate a man's property for having done something which it was impossible for that man not to have done—things which it was impossible for him to avoid doing. I said that such regulations should be dropped. That is putting power in the hands of an inspector to inflict a great hardship.

Mr. Hogan

Is not that beside the point? What is the regulation? That trade eggs shall not be exported except as trade eggs.

Mr. Dillon

This is not the place to have a wrangle over the details. If the Deputy wants to know, my point is this: Until the Department is in a position to warn a man as to the specific standard this regulation should not be enforced. If the eggs are not found by the inspector to be up to the standard then the eggs should be returned to the person who sent them. As it is, these eggs are confiscated and the Department can deprive a man of his licence. The fact is that the Department's inspectors themselves are unable to ship eggs in conformity with the regulations.

Mr. Hogan

Then the point is that the regulations should be left as they are, but administered in another way, that instead of confiscating the eggs they should be returned—is not that the case? That is the real trouble. The point is not so obscure at all. The point is simplicity itself. There is no doubt that trade eggs should not be exported as specially selected eggs. That would be bad for the reputation of the Irish egg industry. The trouble is how to prevent exporting trade eggs as specially selected eggs? The Department said that trade eggs are only to be exported as such. The Deputy pointed out that there is a difficulty. He said an egg may be fresh to-day and to-morrow it may be a trade egg, and he wants to get over that. Surely there must be some regulation with regard to trade eggs. You cannot allow them to be exported indiscriminately. You cannot allow a man simply to say: "This is a trade egg." That would not constitute it a trade egg or a specially selected egg. There must be some regulations. The solution of the problem may be extremely delicate, but the problem itself is simple. The point is that the housewives keep the eggs in when the market is rising. The fact is that an egg sometimes gets stale in 72 hours. Generally what happens is that eggs are held at home by the housewife. When the price is low they hold them perhaps four, five or seven days even, expecting a rise. That happens all over the country.

Mr. Dillon

No housewife in Ireland ever kept an egg when the price is falling. That is point No. 1, and point No 2 is that 60 or 70 per cent. of the trade eggs at present classified as such are only a week old.

Mr. Hogan

How do they get stale?

Mr. Dillon

I will explain that later. That is a technical matter and not to be wrangled about here.

Mr. Hogan

There is no use in taking the line that this is such a highly technical subject that we cannot discuss it. Even the farmers such as they are on the Fianna Fáil Benches know that housewives hold the eggs back in hopes of a rise in the market.

Mr. Dillon

Ah! Whoever heard of a market rising in June?

Mr. Hogan

There is no doubt about it that the housewives usually hold the eggs and the perfectly innocent efficient shopkeeper gets eggs which have been held over for a certain time and these eggs are likely to get stale. Then the shopkeeper ships them and he is caught by the Department.

Mr. Dillon

What about fertile eggs?

Mr. Hogan

That is a question we need not go into at the moment. The way to alter that condition is to educate all and sundry on the fact that the eggs should be sold and shipped fresh. Education is the sole process to bring about that position.

Mr. Dillon

Might I interrupt the Deputy a moment? This is where I join issue on the problem as a problem. It is not a question that we can discuss here. It is a technical question and suitable for Departmental discussion.

Mr. Belton

Is it not easy to regulate the poultry so that the eggs will not be fertilised?

Mr. Hogan

That is just the question. I see no solution of the problem except to educate all and sundry to ship their eggs fresh. Anyway there are only two alternatives, first, the regulations and, second, education. Take your choice. Come down on one side or the other. Until people are educated to sell and ship their eggs quite fresh there will be no solution of the problem. There is quite an efficient Civil Service in the North of Ireland, and there is also an efficient Civil Service in England. This point arose in both places and they found they could not solve it any other way except by these regulations. This is not something that has been thoughtlessly done by the Department. It has been done with a considerable amount of thought. They had the advantage of all the knowledge of the people in the trade and the experience in other countries. I can see no other way out of it. However, that is only a detail.

I want to draw the attention of the House to these Estimates. In looking through the Estimates I notice all the old sub-heads are kept on. I know all these sub-heads backwards. They are all old reliables. I have gone down that list and looked at these sub-heads 50 times. I see here a sub-head for Technical and Advisory Work in Agriculture, just the same as it has been for years. I see the next sub-head for Research Work. That is just the same as in the past. There is a sub-head for Subscriptions, etc. to International and other Research Organisations. That is just the same as it has been for the past ten years. There is a sub-head for special Investigation, Inquiries and Reports. That is just the same as in the past. I remember that two years ago Deputy Ryan was then very facetious at my expense about these sub-heads. I think he talked about one pamphlet issued by the Department, and the comment he made was: "Was there ever anything so trifling or futile?" He asked was the tax-payer's money to be wasted in telling people what kind of weather we had last month, and telling people what were the prices at fairs. Yet, every month I get the same information now from the Department. Every item down along is just the same. They are either the services that were always in the Department of Agriculture, which was always a magnificent Department, or services that, with great diffidence I have to say, I added to the Department. Here, they are, all from Fianna Fáil, who, for ten years have been telling the country that my policy was wrong. There is this great difference. What are decreases? The decreases are in G. 2—Improvement of Milk Production. That is a heavy decrease— £1,269. G.2—Improvement of Live Stock, decrease, £1,885. H.—Grants to County Committees of Agriculture; there is not a big decrease in that. M. 4—Loans for Agricultural Purposes; at a time, by the way, when everybody wants increased tillage, the loans for agricultural purposes are there, and all the schemes are there, but just a little bit attentuated. Then there is I.—Special Agricultural, etc., Schemes in Congested Districts, in which there is a decrease of £1,294. These are really important schemes and valuable schemes to the country, which have been just a little attentuated. That is what Fianna Fáil policy in agriculture comes to. They maintain the existing schemes and attentuate the most important of them. That is what their policy comes to. I knew that, because there is no inspiration either agricultural or industrial on the opposite Benches. They are purely imitative. When they took office they simply imitated us, but did not do it as efficiently as we did.

They have a few new schemes, such as the wheat scheme. I believe Deputy Norton is very fond of that wheat scheme. I am certain that Deputy Kelly thinks of this as drivel. He is a Dublin man, and his line of country is patriotism. He thinks that it is waste of time to talk about eggs or any of the humdrum things such as that. He has almost told us that. Deputy Donnelly complained that we are wasting too much time on the farmers. He says that you would think there were not any other people but farmers, and there were only two members of the Fianna Fáil Party with himself present in the House. He thinks it is a waste of time to spend any time discussing the problems of the country.

Mr. Donnelly

No.

Mr. Hogan

That is what it comes to. He asks Deputy Bennett: "Is there any other class in the community except farmers," because we were half an hour discussing their problems. Fianna Fáil have a few new schemes. They have the wheat scheme. I hope that will be in operation for a couple of years, as I want to see it tried out. We have pricked a good many bubbles in the last year. The agricultural tariffs were one. Not a word now about agricultural tariffs. Not a single word about German oats, when the best white oats are being sold at 8/- and 9/- a barrel.

Mr. Corry

Who is the idiot that kept them?

Mr. Hogan

Oats were going cheaper earlier. Will Deputy Corry commit himself to saying what oats will sell for next October?

Mr. Corry

I know what I sold them for.

Mr. Hogan

We do not want to hear that. We want to know what the market price will be next October.

Mr. Corry

You are the only prophet.

Mr. Hogan

If the Deputy is not willing to give an opinion on that, let him just wait and see and not interrupt any more. I know what they will go for. They will go less than 8/- per barrel. I hope the wheat scheme will be put into operation for two or three years, so that that particular foolishness will be finished with once and for all, just as a lot of other particular brands of foolishness have been dispelled for the last year or two. We do not hear a word now about agricultural tariffs. There is no longer any virtue in them. Nobody tells us now about the price of bacon and pigs, although the Danish and Polish bacon has been stopped from coming in. There are no imports of bacon from these countries, yet look at the price of bacon to-day. Then we have the tobacco scheme and people have been writing to the farmers to grow tobacco. These are the only two substantial additions which have been made by the Minister to the schemes we used to carry out. The country should know that. Of course turf has been promised. Leaving out politics, leaving out what Deputy Dillon called Caitlin Ni Houlihan in the cold for the moment, what does the Fianna Fáil agricultural policy come to? A rather poor imitation of mine, with tobacco and wheat actually added and turf promised. Deputy Dillon also said that he was surprised and amazed, and so did Deputy Bennett, that the Minister did not think it worth while to make some comment on his Estimate; give us some idea of what he hoped for in the future and show that he has some realisation that the farmers are in a shocking condition and that agriculture is in an appalling state, and if he had any plan that would give any germ of hope for the future to let us hear it.

Deputy Dillon also said that he was not going to rub it in about the price of live stock, and the price at which the farmer was selling everything. I think it ought to be rubbed in. It is a most extraordinary thing that, in present circumstances, and with present prices, a Minister could come forward and introduce an agricultural Estimate without saying a single word in explanation, making no contribution whatever, and promising no contribution to the terrible problems confronting the unfortunate man who expects to live out of agriculture. I think he certainly ought to be reminded of the position. What is the position. What is the position because we have lost the market which we had. We need not go into the reasons. Cattle are now 23/- and 24/- per cwt. The Germans are able to buy cattle to-day in the Dublin market. I saw them buying them. There is a Fianna Fáil victory! You will get soft-headed people to tell you that we have alternative markets, because the Germans bought 120 head of cattle in Dublin to-day. They did. Who made them think of buying them? The Minister for Agriculture. His Government brought the price of cattle down to such a price that the Germans could come in and buy them. If he brings them down much lower, the Chinese can come in and buy them, and we shall have any amount of alternative markets. Any one could buy cattle if they were down to £1 per cwt. They are down to 24/-. What were the same cattle two years ago? 44/- per cwt. You could not get Hereford cattle less than 48/- The best 9 cwt. Hereford cattle at present sell for 28/- and 26/- per cwt. What are lambs at present? I come from a constituency where small farmers always look forward to the lamb trade to pay their bills. First class fat lambs are fetching £1 in the country, or 23/- or 24/- in the Dublin market. What were they last year before the economic war? The same quality were selling at 36/-. What were they the year before? They were 47/6. I am quoting specific cases. Lambs fell from 47/6 to 36/-, and now they are down to £1. Beef, which was 48/- per cwt., is now down to 23/-. I sold pigs this year at 25/- per cwt. live weight. What are they now? I do not know, because I have not any pigs. Of course that is what is happening. What was the price of eggs? They were 4d. a score some time ago. Of course that conveys nothing to Deputy Kelly. He is above all that. He is thinking of Caithlín Ní Houlihán the whole time.

Mr. T. Kelly

How do you know?

Mr. Hogan

I doubt if you have been thinking of anything. You should stop those senseless interruptions in the Dáil when we are on an important subject.

Mr. Kelly

I did not interrupt you at all. I did not open my lips. I could not be bothered.

Mr. Hogan

In that state of affairs the Minister comes in here, the agricultural estimates are introduced, and there is not a word of explanation. There is not a word to show the farmers of the country that there is to be any hope for them. What is behind it? Is not that almost inconceivable? If anybody would say two or three years ago that the prices of live stock would have fallen to such famine levels, to levels they have not touched since 1848, and that yet you could have an agricultural debate in the Dáil to empty benches, with the Minister silent, would it be believed? I venture to say that no member of any Party in the Dáil would believe it. Why does it happen? Mind you Deputy Donnelly was on a good point. He suggested that farmers are of no account. That is really what it came to.

Mr. Donnelly

Exactly.

Mr. Hogan

There is more in that than you think and I will tell you why. I spent ten years as Minister for Agriculture trying to improve—I am not saying whether I succeeded or not— the production of butter, eggs, bacon, and so on. We were beside the point. Fianna Fáil has got a better way. What their policy amounts to is this. They have told the farmers in effect that making money in these times out of farming proper is too hard work for patriots.

Mr. O'Leary

Put them on the roads.

Mr. Hogan

Put them on the roads; put them on the dole; put them on the old age pensions.

Mr. McMenamin

On the blind pensions!

Mr. Hogan

That is what this great Christian Socialism has come to; "I will show you a much easier way of making money. I will give your father 10/- a week; I will give your mother, if she is over 70 years of age, 10/- a week"——

Mr. Donnelly

That was not your policy.

Mr. Hogan

——"Your two sons will get easy money on the roads. That will be two or three pounds a week more." That is very much easier than trying to make money out of the difference between the buying and the selling price of cattle, sheep or pigs. What is the result? Three-fourths of the farmers of this country are rapidly reaching the position when they do not expect to live out of farming. They expect to live out of doles; they expect to get sufficient money this way and that. Where is all this money to come from? It has all to come out of the land that nobody will work. Was there ever in any country in the world such a Gilbertian situation? That is the pass that the Fianna Fáil Government has reduced this country to. Somebody talked about drainage and the deterioration of the land. Of course the land is deteriorating. Who will buy artificial manure to put into the land?

Mr. Belton

Who will drain the land?

Mr. Hogan

Who will drain the land? Who will pay a high price for a bull? There was magnificent work done by the farmers in the last ten years in the way of improving live-stock. Will they do it now? What is the use of having high class stock? What is the use in having nice quality stock? What is the use in grading their eggs properly? What is the use in having extra selected eggs, as against trade eggs, when you can get only 4d. a score for them? The land, the produce, everything is being deteriorated. Worst of all, the farmers have been demoralised, and it will take many generations of patriotic governments in this country to get the farmers back to their original outlook.

Mr. Hales

It is you who are responsible, and your Ministry, and your whole Party. You got a golden chance for ten years and proved a failure.

Mr. Hogan

There will not be anybody, even the most rabid politician, who will look forward with any great enthusiasm to the certain failure that is going to come to the Fianna Fáil Party within two years.

Mr. Donnelly

Deputy Belton will give you your instructions.

Mr. MacDermot

Order, order.

Mr. Hogan

I find it hard to debate these Estimates at all. There is no doubt if things were normal, if there was any attempt to put agriculture on a paying basis, to hearten the good farmers and make the others somewhat better, if things were done properly in the country, each of these sub-heads could be taken in details and discussed and improved on. What is the use of making any suggestions? Who is ready to listen to them? There are very few people, except those who have certain reserves and who are not yet bankrupt under the present regime, who have any heart for farming or working. All this, we are told, is being done in the interests of increased population. It seems to me that people who talk like that are suffering from softness of the brain. What is happening in this country? I will give you an analogy. Take a period of three years. There is a family of three in, we will say, three or four years. During that period a man cuts down his production by half or by one-third. He spends one-third more than he ever spent before, and he works about half as hard. What position would that man be in at the end of it? How is this country, losing its markets, with agricultural production falling in a most lamentable way, going to support an increased population? I do not like to have to say this, but it is a fact that the policy put into operation here in the name of the protection of agriculture is going to bring absolute starvation in three or four years. A good many Deputies on the opposite benches know that. They know it, but they must go on. There is no way out of it. They have to show that they are different from us. They took this line, and have not either sufficient brains or courage or patriotism to change it. The sooner they are told that, and the sooner they realise it the better.

I made one suggestion last year. I wonder was it attended to, or was anything done about it. My experience of farming and my experience as Minister for Agriculture led me to the conclusion that there was one very important defect in the Live-Stock Breeding Act. It showed itself in the working of the Act, and in experience I had as a farmer, in connection with live stock and particularly with regard to cows, it showed itself very much. It undoubtedly improved the beef qualities of the cattle of this country beyond measure. That was natural enough. It was a very drastic Act. Nobody could keep a bull without a licence. The standard was made higher every year. All this licensing took place on a beef basis. There was no advertence to the history of the bull, and hence the beef animal got through every time, with the result that dairy bulls were weeded out and replaced by beef bulls. If you look up the results of the various licensing shows in this country you will find that a very high percentage of bulls have been rejected in the County Limerick. I believe that was due to the fact that County Limerick had a very high percentage of dairy bulls. That was one of the reasons, at any rate. In any case it is perfectly clear that the dairy bull is at a grave disadvantage, and it is getting increasingly difficult to get a good milch cow. That is a really serious problem. As to contagious abortion——

Mr. Dillon

I do not think that is through that cause.

Mr. Hogan

I do not know any other cause. It is getting increasingly difficult to get a good milch cow.

Mr. Dillon

Is not there something in the mixing of the breed?

Mr. Hogan

That would be in it too. Take a typical shorthorn cow. There are plenty of counties where you will have four or five crosses of shorthorn cows. It is getting increasingly difficult to get a good milch cow. That is a very bad tendency.

It goes to the root of our agriculture, and if that goes on it will be extremely bad. Again, I confess it is easier to state the problem than to solve it, but I am absolutely certain that the problem is there. I think it would be worth the while of the Minister to give it his attention. He has a most efficient staff; they are there to face that problem. I do not see a ready way of solving that difficulty, but if the Minister could solve it he would have done something for the country, and something that would be remembered for him when all his false notions about wheat and sugar and beet would be forgotten.

Mr. Belton

I do not know whether I am infected with some disease or not, but listening to the debate, so far, and thinking over the position of agriculture, I felt inclined, and still feel inclined, to think that this Estimate for about £700,000 for the Department of Agriculture would be better saved until some sanity comes to the country by getting back markets for the produce of agriculture which the Government will not now allow. All the nice paragraphs lettered and numbered in the Estimate mean absolutely nothing to agriculture at the present time except that agriculture will have to pay £700,000. There is not a single thing proposed that would give one "bob's return" for that sum of money. Deputy Dillon went into details about egg packing, and someone talked about the necessity for drainage. I would ask, is the best acre of land in the Free State paying at the present time. If not what is the use then of draining swamps and turning them into agricultural land. No one is able to say to-day that he is making a living out of agriculture. Some Deputy who does not make his living out of agriculture throws in an objection to that statement, but, of course, he cannot be asked to prove his contention, and if he attempted to do so he would be excused. There are a lot of things we could suggest in connection with this Estimate if we had anything approaching normality. I suppose if we did not pass this Estimate the League of Nations would mandamus us.

Dr. Ryan

The Deputy has that on the brain.

Mr. Belton

Of course we could expect no mercy from the Minister and, of course, no mercy was asked. A time will come when professional men will be sent back to mind their own business. They will be told to cease from meddling with agriculture, and leave that to men who make a living out of it and made it pay such as has happened in the case of crops I sow. How does the Minister for Agriculture expect an ordinary man to make wheat grow, when he himself sowed wheat four times and it actually did not come up?

Dr. Ryan

I did not. The Deputy must withdraw that.

Mr. Belton

Well, I withdraw that, and will say that he only sowed it twice and it did not come up.

Dr. Ryan

That is not so, and the Deputy must withdraw that too.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order. The Chair does not know who sowed wheat, and Deputies should be allowed to speak without interruption.

Dr. Ryan

I only want him to withdraw what he said about me.

Mr. Belton

All I know is that the farmer from whom the Minister bought the seed must have said what was not true.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

What the Minister did, in his personal capacity, has nothing to do with the Estimate.

Dr. Ryan

Especially when what he is said to have done is untrue.

Mr. Belton

There would be no reference to the Minister, in a personal capacity, only he began the personalities. If he wants to be personal he will get all he wants. Deputy Hogan sang the same old song that he has been singing for the last ten years— the same air, the same music with just a couple of innovations. One of the innovations is this subject of wheat that we are talking about. Deputy Hogan hopes that wheat growing will be experimented with for a couple of years. While agreeing with Deputy Hogan with regard to wheat, at the same time I must point out that we view the prospect from different angles. I have a belief in the successful growing of wheat in this country if it is done intelligently. I am not saying that Deputy Hogan is wrong, of course. But holding the belief I have expressed, I cannot admit he is right, because I gather from his remarks that he holds wheat growing is not an economic proposition in this country. I am not going to argue the two different standpoints. Deputy Hogan expressed the hope that probably if wheat growing is continued for two years, people will realise that they cannot grow it. I hope that wheat growing, in present circumstances, and under present conditions will be stopped as soon as possible. I am afraid it will only discredit wheat growing in this country when somebody gets control who knows how to handle the wheat growing problem, just as I am afraid that national protection for our own home industries intelligently worked, will be seriously discredited owing to the ignorant misuse of the tariffs we have at present. Similarly, I am afraid for future attempts at wheat growing owing to the way it has been mishandled by the Minister and by the Executive Council at the present time. On another debate here on matters appertaining to agriculture, but not so directly concerned with agricultural policy as the present matter before the House, I put it to the Minister to tell the House and to tell the country what was the objective in his experiment. Nobody can make any intelligent experiment without having some object in view. The Minister betrays some intention, when he gets up at a cross-roads meeting or in a market square and, to quote a very reputable farmer member of his Party. Deputy Geoghegan, that all the ploughs of the country under their policy— under his policy, mind you, God bless the mark!—would soon be working.

Mr. Donnelly

And he won!

Mr. Belton

The policy did not win.

Mr. O'Leary

The country lost.

Mr. Donnelly

He won, but he did not get as far as he expected.

Mr. O'Leary

He did not bring about the two million pounds economies that he promised.

Mr. Donnelly

He put an end to the last Government.

Mr. Norton

Did not the Deputy lose his deposit in the same constituency?

Mr. Belton

The objective in growing wheat was to do what our fathers did— to provide native food for the people. The Minister knows and everybody in the country knows, and I am sure that the delicate taste of Deputy Norton dictates it to him——

Mr. Norton

The Deputy has no political taste. He has been in every Party and was thrown out of one.

Mr. Belton

Who! I request the Deputy to withdraw that.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Belton is entitled to speak without interruption and the Chair will take serious notice of further interruption.

Mr. Norton

Surely my tastes are a matter for myself?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is not entitled to interrupt any Deputy while he is speaking.

Mr. Norton

I suggest that Deputy Belton is not entitled to make references to my personal taste.

Deputies

Why not?

Mr. Belton

Deputy Norton has made a statement which is untrue and I request that he be asked to withdraw it. He stated that I was put out of the Fianna Fáil Party, which is untrue.

Mr. Donnelly

Nonsense!

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The only statement that the Chair will ask to be withdrawn is something that reflects on the personal honour or honesty of the Deputy concerned. Being put out of the Fianna Fáil Party is not any reflection on the Deputy.

Mr. Belton

I accept that. It is absolutely to my credit, and my character has gone up a hundred-fold after that. The only discredit I have behind me is that I was ever in it.

Dr. Ryan

Same here!

Mr. Belton

I am sure that the Minister does not say that with all his heart, because, when I was in the Party, the unanimous choice of the Party selected me to look after agriculture and left the Minister in the Back Bench.

Dr. Ryan

That was before they knew you.

Mr. Belton

To make wheat a success in this country we have to take the market that is there.

Mr. Corry

The Deputy is drawing on his imagination.

Mr. Donnelly

And he calls himself a success!

Mr. Belton

I hope the Deputy will not rise to the high flights of imagination to which he did yesterday. To get the market in our own or any other country we must produce for that market and while bread is made out of flour and flour is made out of wheat, it does not follow that every wheat that is grown is going to produce—cut out the intermediate stages—good bread, especially the bread the people are accustomed to now, and that is bakers' bread. On the previous occasions that I spoke on this matter I asked the Minister to mention one strain of wheat grown in this country that will produce a flour sufficiently rich in gluten to give us good bakers' bread. The Minister has not mentioned one. I can make the positive statement, without fear of contradiction, that there is not one that is economic.

Mr. Donnelly

What about Arthur Griffith!

Mr. Belton

Arthur Griffith is not a wheat.

Mr. Donnelly

Why does not the Deputy read "The Economic Salvation of Ireland" by Arthur Griffith?

Mr. Belton

I read it before the Deputy ever heard of Arthur Griffith.

Mr. Hales

Would you not eat the Irish wheat in '47? Would it be good enough to eat in '47?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputies Hales and Donnelly are repeatedly interrupting and they will have to desist from now on. Deputy Belton will proceed.

Mr. Belton

In reference to that, I may say that the wheat grown here in 1847 was infinitely superior in baking quality to any wheat we have now. Furthermore, the bread then used was generally griddle or pot-oven bread. The bread that is generally used now is bakers' bread, and that makes a very great difference. If the Deputies opposite were sufficiently interested in this matter they would know that, when the Glasnevin plant-breeding section interested themselves in the propagation of old native strains of wheat, they introduced the old native wheat from Tipperary into Glasnevin Experimental College. That wheat was supposed to be the direct successor of the wheat that was grown there about 80 years ago and which was considered to be the best strain of wheat grown in Ireland at that time. When that was examined here it was found that the one sample contained 65 different varieties. That is where Irish wheat seed had deteriorated for want of proper attention. The Minister, I notice here, has neglected even giving the proper attention to that aspect of this important subject of agriculture, and the important subject of wheat growing.

I notice here that the Faculty of General Agriculture that has taken over the Glasnevin College proposes to spend £24,000 as against £23,700 last year. The most important branch of that Faculty is the plant-breeding branch, to which a lectureship only has been given and, apparently, there is no provision to be made under this for a professorship. I can speak with authority on that for, as a member of the governing body of the university. I was a member of the committee that drafted the statute of this Faculty. I did my best there to have a professorship of plant-breeding, but I failed. I was, however, responsible for a lectureship in agricultural engineering, but the post was not filled, and apparently the Minister is not going to fill it now. The Minister ought to know— it would not be much trouble to him to find out—that the growing of wheat is essentially a matter for the laboratory first. Good hard milling wheat will grow in any country and in any climate in the world, but the same strain will not grow successfully in every country.

I have here a pamphlet issued by the Dominion cerealist, L. H. Newman, Ottawa, Ontario, in which he traces the development of wheat growing in Canada. When it was attempted there first it was a failure both in yield and quality. The first success that attended wheat growing in Canada was with the production of a breed of wheat by David Fife, a cross between Indian, American and Siberian wheats. This produced a wheat that suited the soil and climate of Canada. The Minister laughs at that, but that canny Scotchman knew what he was doing. It is a pity the Minister has not a little of his horse-sense. If he had he would make progress slowly, and would not start breaking up good grass lands in order to grow wheat to feed pigs and cattle, the market for which the Minister has killed. The Canadian plant-breeding station bred a wheat that enabled them to grow an additional 15,000,000 acres. If I may instruct the Minister a little, here is the result of the Canadian venture:

"Assuming that Marquis now occupies 15,000,000 acres, or approximately 75 per cent. of the area devoted to wheat in Canada, and that this area yields five bushels more than Red Fife would have yielded (had it been possible to grow Red Fife on the same land) we find that our harvests have been increased by 75,000,000 bushels annually. In other words we are able to realise probably £100,000,000 more from our wheat crop annually than would have been possible had we still to rely upon the variety with which we started."

Perhaps the Minister will learn something from that.

Dr. Ryan

When was it written?

Mr. Belton

In 1928. In Canada they wanted a particular quality, and if they could not get that quality they knew wheat growing would not pay. The Minister has not a particular quality for the market here, and therefore his scheme could not be successful. If he had a strain which would give the desired quality, I would be as enthusiastic as he is himself. But he has not the necessary strain, and he is growing for the market something that the market does not want. In Canada they had a good strain, but they could not go any further north because it took Red Fife too long to mature. They had to get a grain that could be put in in the late spring, when the frost would be gone, and would mature in the early autumn before the frost would come again. They got that breed and the area was increased to 15,000,000 acres, with the added advantages I have read from the official pamphlet. The Minister is doing here what Canada would not do. I need not labour the point any further.

Take another aspect of this wheat experiment. It is necessary that the wheat product gives a good average yield and is of sufficiently good quality to produce the flour we want. The Minister knows that in this country we have to run over a six years' rotation. He knows that the best wheat crop is not all immediately convertible into human food. He knows that over the six years' rotation 80 per cent. of the entire production of the land is animal food; it must be used directly through the bodies of animals. He knows also that 80 per cent. of the produce of tillage land represents more animal food than 100 per cent. of the produce of the same land under grass; in other words, he is increasing the live stock carrying capacity of the land when he increases tillage.

Dr. Ryan

That is right.

Mr. Belton

It is well the Minister concedes that.

Dr. Ryan

Why are your colleagues saying that I want to get away from live-stock?

Mr. O'Leary

We will tell you all about it later on.

Dr. Ryan

It is time for the Deputy to make a speech.

Mr. Belton

I did not quite catch what the Minister said to me.

Dr. Ryan

Why are the Deputy's colleagues always saying that I am trying to get rid of the live-stock of the country?

Mr. Belton

That is only one front on which to attack the Minister. I am afraid I will have to attack him on two fronts. Not only is the Minister's policy killing the live-stock industry, but it is going to kill the tillage industry as well. The Minister will concede from the rough data I have given him that 80 per cent. of the production of the rotation must pay its way, or else the whole rotation will be run at a loss. I wonder will the Minister deny that 80 per cent. of the rotation production will be animal food.

Dr. Ryan

I do not agree with the six years' rotation at all.

Mr. Belton

What rotation does the Minister favour?

Dr. Ryan

Four or five years.

Mr. Belton

Would the Minister not leave the land for at least a couple of years under rye grass meadow?

Dr. Ryan

I do not count that in the rotation.

Mr. Belton

I have to learn something about rotation so.

Dr. Ryan

You have, and others must learn something about it, too.

Mr. Belton

No matter what rotation the Minister will approve of, he will hardly deny that approximately 80 per cent. of the entire production would be animal food. If 80 per cent. of the entire production is animal food it follows that to make the whole business a paying concern it is absolutely necessary that the animal food must be a paying proposition in itself. Is there any practical man in this country who will say that if we lose the English market permanently we are going to make the increased animal food production in this country a paying proposition? Eighty per cent. of the rotation which is set going by the Minister's scheme of wheat growing and producing wheat will mean 800,000 acres, and this will amount to an increase in tillage of 5,000,000 acres. And 80 per cent. of the production of the 5,000,000 acres will be infinitely more than 100 per cent. of the present grass production of the best land in the country. Yet the Minister has cut away the market to make live-stock production and the production of live-stock products profitable. How is he going to make a little bit of wheat profitable, when it is only 20 per cent. of the entire production? Even if that wheat were all of the best millable wheat, it could not be made profitable. It cannot be of the best millable wheat, because we have not the proper strain of wheat in this country to produce flour fit to make bakers' bread. But even presuming it was so, and that we have 80 per cent. of animal food, that will not pay.

Will tillage pay at £1 for lambs? Will it pay at the price at which eggs are sold as stated by Deputy Dillon to-day? Is not the Minister rushing headlong and bringing the country headlong into a swallow hole? He tells the farmers to till for the home market —for "the best market." If the Minister knew the tillage problem thoroughly and what intensive cultivation could produce he would know that the County Dublin and the County Meath would produce as much food as would feed every man, woman and child in the Free State. These two counties would suffice for that without going into any other county. I do not propose to go into the land policy nor to the acreage of farms. We are dealing just now with agriculture and the question of land is on another Estimate.

The Minister tells the people that we have the home market but I tell him again that if tillage in an intensified way is carried out in the Counties Dublin and Meath enough food would be produced to feed the whole population of the Saorstát, without any other county producing anything. Yet the Minister tells us that we are to increase tillage. The Minister and his colleagues say that they will take the land from the man who does not till. They are telling this to the poor "yahoos" at the cross-roads. Let the Minister tell it to the people in the Dáil.

Dr. Ryan

When the Bill comes in we will tell you what we will do and what we will till.

Mr. Belton

I have no doubt but the Minister would till the whole of Europe in a Bill but will he till it behind a plough? It is the easiest thing in the world to till on paper but it is another thing to get behind a plough and do it.

Mr. Donnelly

It is no use unless you reap.

Mr. Belton

I am afraid it is wild oats the Minister will reap this time. Deputy Hogan in the course of the debate pointed out that a case was made that the ordinary animals did not pay and he asked the Minister several times what new animals did he suggest would pay. I felt very much tempted to interject that if we import musk rats they would pay better——

A Deputy

Or asses.

Mr. Belton

It is too many of these we imported and it is a pity we did not realise it at the time. If we did we would be better off now. Deputy Hogan made a very good point a few minutes ago. I saw it in correspondence in the Press last January and February. It was then stated that the small farmers in the West of Ireland were never better off than now because they have plenty money. They are getting work on the roads from the Government. Yes, but the land is idle. I would strongly commend the Minister and his colleagues to read John Mitchel's "History of Ireland."

Mr. T. Kelly

John Mitchel's "Jail Journal."

Mr. Belton

No, but John Mitchel's "History of Ireland." John Mitchel wrote there that from the siege of Limerick the British Government had devoted themselves to manufacturing paupers in this country. Well our Government is precisely at the same job to-day, manufacturing able-bodied paupers in this country.

Mr. Kehoe

Is the analogy complete?

Mr. Belton

Yes. Mitchel pointed out how roads leading to nowhere were built during the famine period. To-day our Government are straightening corners to nowhere. Last January they were at this work, but then the object of spending this money on the roads was a different one. There was a general election on the horizon——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not within the scope of this Estimate.

Mr. Belton

——The Minister has an Estimate for agriculture, and instead of attending to agriculture he is attending to the roads. My point is that it would be a saving to the country not to pass this Estimate for the Department of Agriculture. Instead, let the land run fallow. If I may use an old agricultural term it would be better really to let the soil of this country run fallow than to be putting in crops that will never come to maturity. We are growing beet, and we could buy sugar as cheaply if we did not grow it at all. Of course this beet is subsidising certain favoured counties, but getting the subsidy from other counties that get no benefit from it. A Deputy here said that the Government should do something for the dairying industry. Deputy Hogan went over the position of agriculture and spoke of the policy pursued. I wonder what people three years ago would think of that policy. Let us take the position with regard to butter prices. Take the constituency I represent, North Dublin.

Mr. Donnelly

North City!

Mr. Belton

I know more about North City than the Deputy knows about agricultural matters in Leix or Offaly.

Mr. Briscoe

This is the part of the city that raises the pigs.

Mr. Belton

Yes, and it makes sausages too.

Mr. Briscoe

North City?

Mr. Belton

Yes, and makes sausages successfully. I can see the friendship that has grown up between Deputy Briscoe and Deputy Harris. I am afraid it is a sausage friendship. North City feeds more pigs than any other area in the Free State except South City. Deputy Briscoe gets his votes there. Cork Street feeds more pigs than any other area of its size, but the Deputy does not know much about it. All he knows about Cork Street is when he is canvassing there. I do not canvass for votes in Cork Street. I go there to deliver them pig feeding.

Mr. Donnelly

And pig feeding does not pay according to the Deputy.

Mr. Belton

I represent North City and it is as natural for a farmer and a pig feeder to represent a city constituency as it is for a doctor to represent an agricultural constituency.

Mr. Donnelly

And the doctor is sitting next the Deputy on his own benches.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This has nothing to do with the Estimate.

Mr. Belton

I am replying to an interruption made by a more responsible member of this House than I am, an interruption made by a Minister and I want to emphasise to him that it is more natural for a farmer, a builder and a pig feeder to represent a city constituency than it is for a doctor to represent an agricultural constituency.

Mr. Donnelly

You have a doctor on your left.

Mr. Belton

In the constituency I represent the shopkeepers have to pay 48/- per cwt. for margarine, while we are delivering our butter to John Bull at 40/- per cwt.

Dr. Ryan

We are not.

Mr. Belton

Would the Minister correct me?

Dr. Ryan

I will.

Mr. Belton

I am afraid that the Minister's Party is a pro-margarine Party.

Dr. Ryan

Is that why you left us?

Mr. Belton

The Minister will not deny that the basic price on which the British Government bases the tariff is 68/- per cwt.?

Dr. Ryan

I will. Go up another bit.

Mr. Belton

Then he is denying the official reports of the British House of Commons.

Dr. Ryan

I do.

Mr. Belton

I am sure you would. In that frame of mind, I shall not carry on the argument any longer. If the Minister denies everything except what he thinks himself, there is no use trying to convince him. The official statement in the British House of Commons was that 68/- is the basic price on which the tariff is paid.

Dr. Ryan

It is wrong.

Mr. Belton

There is 28/- taken off that, which leaves us 40/- per cwt. for our butter. There will not be a cwt. of butter let out to the citizens of Dublin under 133/- per cwt. wholesale, while, counting the transit and commission charges, the price received in Great Britain is 40/-.

Dr. Ryan

That is wrong.

Mr. Belton

That is all that comes here. In the City of Dublin the wholesale price of margarine at present is 48/-. I wonder what interest has the Minister and his Administration in margarine that the people whom I represent should be charged 8/- per cwt. more for margarine than we charge the British for Irish butter. I am sure that the dairying districts of this country do not want that kind of prosperity, because they know it cannot last. In addition, the Government is cutting the salaries and wages of these people and depriving them of Irish butter. They are forcing margarine on them, and that is the Party that was to give the El Dorado to the working man! As to the question of drainage of land, I have experience, as a member of a drainage board, of the difficulty of getting people to pay drainage rates.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is there any money provided in this Estimate for drainage?

Mr. Belton

It was news to me that it could be discussed on this Estimate, and when Deputy Dillon was speaking I raised a point of order, as I thought that it would come under the Board of Works. The Ceann Comhairle, however, said that it is not directly under either and that it could be discussed on either of them. Let us forget the economic position consequent on the economic war. There are just a few points that could be attended to and to which I would direct the Minister's attention. One is the Weeds Act. I think the Minister would be well advised if he could make the cutting of weeds simpler and more direct. I believe I am right in stating that the weeds inspector is appointed directly by the Minister's Department. I think it is an annual appointment, and very often he is not appointed in time. The Minister might consider the advisability of having that officer under the control of the Committee of Agriculture, say. I am not recommending it, but we have found that these inspectors are inclined to travel the main and trunk roads and forget that weeds grow on lands near the smaller roads. The matter would be worth consideration and, in considering it, it would be well if the Department got the opinion of county councils and county committees of agriculture to see how it works in the various counties.

As to drainage schemes, the method of working these schemes at present is hardly fair. I believe that two or three people can make an application to the county council to consider a proposed scheme for draining a district or area. The county council has not any discretion in the matter. They must act on the requisition of two or three ratepayers and they must have an inspection made by a competent engineer and a scheme drawn up, with the expenses, costs, and everything worked out. When the scheme is ready for putting into execution, it is discretionary with the people whose lands it is proposed to drain whether they will have the scheme carried out and foot the bill. If they say that they will not, the scheme falls to the ground and the county rates have to bear all the expenses incurred up to that. If the Minister takes up this matter, I suggest he should get the opinions of the county councils on it. My experience is confined to one particular county that may not be analogous to any other.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Does this involve new legislation?

Dr. Ryan

It does not come under the Department at all.

Mr. Belton

That was my opinion, but the Ceann Comhairle said that this was duplicated by the Board of Works and by the Department and that he would allow the discussion.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There have been a Minor Drainage Act and an Arterial Drainage Act passed. One gives certain power to the county councils, and the other is carried out through the Board of Works. If anything further is to be done in connection with drainage, other powers would have to be got, and that is suggested legislation.

Mr. Belton

I am not in a position to say whether this would require new legislation or not, but the Minister will know how far he can go without legislation. Horticulture should get more attention in this country. While I would agree in normal times, looking a bit ahead, with the policy adopted by the Minister in protecting the home market from the importation of horticultural produce, he did not help horticulture by putting up a protective barrier in a night. He did a lot of damage, a lot of harm, and a lot of injustice— I am sure without knowing it—to a very hard-working class of poor traders in the city. There is a big scope for horticulture here, in strawberries, raspberries, logan berries, currants and I might include also rhubarb. As the Minister will appreciate, there is no use in giving protection suddenly. He would want to have a policy working that would develop production, or have protection on a graduated scale over a number of years. With some fruits, such as apples, it should not be allowed to reach its maximum for seven or eight years. In the case of gooseberries it could reach its maximum in two years; in the case of strawberries it could reach its maximum in two years; and so on, according to the time it should take for the particular fruit to mature, so that we would be able to produce in this country a crop to meet our requirements by a certain time. When that time would be reached we should have our production at its maximum, so as to protect the growers. That would have to be accomplished through a well thought out scheme. There is plenty of scope for it, and plenty of people in the country who are prepared to avail of it. It only requires a little knowledge to save the thousands of pounds that annually leave this country to bring in forced rhubarb. It can be done in this country, and will be done when the dumping that has been going on here for years is stopped.

Mr. Donnelly

Hear, hear!

Mr. Belton

I am glad the Deputy woke up. I suppose, a Chinn Comhairle, it was because I was on a tart subject. This will have to be worked out by schemes carried through in a spirit of goodwill, and in a graduated way. Experiments have shown here that we can supply the market with rhubarb every month in the year, except two. Those two are October and November. In all the other months of the year it can be supplied. Normally it was dumped here from December until March every year, and sold much cheaper than it was sold in Covent Garden. Generally, the surplus that would rot in Covent Garden was dumped over here. While naturally I would be interested if protection came, I should like to warn the Minister, if he contemplates protection for the sake of the consumer, to give timely notice. If people went to him and asked him for a tariff on rhubarb next November, and he thought a case was made for it, and imposed a tariff in November——

Dr. Ryan

Is the Deputy aware that there has been a tariff on rhubarb for 12 months?

Mr. Briscoe

He is waking up now.

Mr. O'Leary

He must not have made any money on it if he did not know it.

Mr. Belton

I did not get time to answer, but it will be interesting to the Minister to know that I, and not the Minister, was responsible for that tariff, because I was behind the deputation that put the case up to him.

Mr. Briscoe

Then why are you asking for it?

Mr. Belton

I am not asking for it.

Dr. Ryan

Why did you not come with the deputation?

Mr. Belton

My idea went, and it was better. I was glad the Minister acted on it, because if I went in person he would not have acted on it.

Dr. Ryan

Oh, now I see!

Mr. Belton

So my absence did more than my presence would have done.

Mr. Briscoe

Pity you would not apply that here!

Mr. Belton

I hope my presence here will have the effect which the Minister suggested it would have if I had gone with that deputation. On behalf of the growers, I thank the Minister for having imposed the tariff, although unfortunately I had no forced rhubarb last year, which has not been the case for a number of years. I want to advise the Minister, so that he will not make a false step. I want him to understand that I am not speaking politically. If representations were made to him to impose a tariff, say, next November, and that is not his fixed policy up to this, he should be very careful about it.

Dr. Ryan

There has been one.

Mr. Belton

And is it continuously running?

Dr. Ryan

Yes.

Mr. Belton

That is all right then, because that is a sufficient warning to people who produce for the market.

Dr. Ryan

The deputation must not have reported back to the Deputy.

Mr. Belton

Not being interested at the time, from the point of view of my pocket, I did not retain all the information, but I can assure the Minister that I would make sure how the land lay before I would fill my house with rhubarb to force. I have got my information from the Minister and will pass on.

Mr. Briscoe

I hope you will do well now.

Mr. Belton

I can assure the Deputy it is a better-paying job than making sausages. I will not tell the Deputy how paying it is, for fear he might enter into competition.

Mr. Briscoe

I am glad you recognise that you are inferior to somebody.

Mr. O'Leary

Is there a tariff on sausages?

Mr. Belton

I do not think there is much more to say on the subject, considering we have no market in which to sell our products. There is nothing else left to be said. We could make a lot of useful suggestions if we could find a market.

Mr. Smith

If we could get a market for our talk we would be better.

Mr. Belton

Then I would have a fair return, but I am afraid the Deputy opposite would not only have to tighten his belt but he could put it around him five or six times. There is one thing he does not do here, and that is talk on behalf of his constituents.

Mr. Corry

I am glad that Deputy Belton is sitting down. I have no doubt but the position of agriculture generally is very serious. When we look at those countries that have the full advantage of the British market, the more we think of their position to-day and the more we think of ours the more we admire our Minister for Agriculture. I will read for the House from "Our Scottish Letter" in the "Farmer's Gazette" of May 27th, of this year. Here is what it says:—

"No real improvement is visible in the farming industry. There is a feeling of hope in the future but that is about all that can be said. Faith and hope have kept the courage going of many farmers for several years past, but all the time their pockets were being emptied instead of being filled. It has been a case of motion without progress. Those engaged in agriculture have come through the crisis and crash of prices with a tenacity peculiar to the Scottish farming race. They are not yet out of the wood. The worst fright may still be strong about them. They do not see how direct benefit is to come to the industry by trade agreements with foreign countries and with home marketing schemes.

In the great oat-growing County of Aberdeen this grain of the very best quality is selling at 4/8 per cwt."

I wonder whether Deputy Hogan, when he complains of 8/- a barrel here, knows that they are getting 4/8 per cwt. in Scotland where they have a complete free noble John Bull market open to them.

These figures are 78/- per qr. below the cost of production. "The number of unemployed" we are told in this report, "on the land is largely increasing. Wages have been cut and economies effected in every department of farming. The labour bill is still a serious item of expenditure on farms when compared with the income from grain and live stock. Farmers are doing with a man less and in many instances they are doing away with a pair of horses. This means that more land is going back into grass, and that is not a good thing for the prosperity of the industry or the country. Mechanical traction is also doing away with horses and men. If agriculture got a fillip and was set on the road of prosperity it would absorb more unemployed men than any other industry in Great Britain."

Mr. O'Leary

What about the Free State?

Mr. Corry

The paper continues: "No Government should neglect its food producing industry, and it is only natural that the people of a country would thrive best on the food produced in their own country." It goes on to state: "Garbity Shorthorn dispersion last week made a remarkable contrast in result to the one that took place on the same farm 13 years ago. The top price at Mr. McWilliam's sale last week was 42 guineas; when his father's sale took place in 1920 it was 2,200 guineas. The total amount realised 13 years ago was over £28,000; the other day for a greater number of animals it was under £800."

Mr. Briscoe

And no economic war between England and Scotland!

Mr. Corry

These are in brief the facts in Scotland where they have a free market, namely the British market, at their very door. That is the market where they are compelled to sell their oats at 4/8 per cwt., and where the price of cattle has gone down from £28,000 to £800. That is the market, which, if the Deputies opposite had their way, we would pay five millions a year for. We have the fact now that Deputy Belton has joined the ranks of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party. He told us here to-day that his policy is wheat growing. If he believes in wheat growing, and if it should happen that the Cumann na nGaedheal Party should come into office, which God forbid, would Deputy Belton come in under a Minister for Agriculture that would prevent wheat growing?

Mr. Belton

On a point of explanation, I shall support and defend wheat growing for this country when we breed the kind of wheat that is suitable for the soil and climate of this country and rich enough in gluten to produce a good loaf. That point has not been reached yet, and I challenge the Minister to say that it has.

Mr. Corry

Deputy Belton was talking long enough already; I grew wheat from 1918 to 1926, and made it pay, and am growing it again this year and it will be better than ever. I know what I am talking about. Deputy Belton was talking about a particular strain of wheat—Red Stettin wheat. He knows that the Red Stettin we have in this country would not pay any farmer to grow. I tried it, and I know the result. I am as good a farmer as anybody.

Mr. Belton

That does not meet my point.

Mr. Corry

But you are all points and you have already been talking long enough. Deputy Hogan said that the Department of Agriculture was following the same policy all the time, and that there is no change between the policy of the last Minister and the present one. If we followed the policy of the last Minister there would not be a creamery left in this country to-day. He voted against the stabilisation of butter produce. The price that the Irish farmer would get for milk to-day, if the ex-Minister for Agriculture was still in office would be 2½d. per gallon. Let us face the real facts. Deputy Hogan also made another case. You can never hold the market here as a market gardener and a farmer. I tried it here once and failed and I have benefited by my failure. Deputy Hogan repeated here to-day the tale of woe he gave us some six months ago. I did not think I would have the pleasure of hearing him repeat that statement so soon. It will be found in volume 44, column 991. Here it is—the statement of the greatest Minister for Agriculture in Europe. He said: "Just before I left office, however, I was coming to the conclusion and my experience since then has strengthened that conclusion, that the Live-Stock Breeding Act, as it is operated, is operating against the dairy cow and in favour of the beef animal. I think if it is operated as it is being operated at present, without making some attempt to encourage milk as against beef, that in a comparatively short time you may find yourself with magnificent looking cows, very fine cattle and pigs but that it will be extremely hard to get a good looking dairy cow in this country."

That is a statement made by the ex-Minister for Agriculture. That is the same Minister who brought in the Act of 1925 and kept it going until 1931 when he was put out of office. He is the Minister who kept it going and paid for it and made the people pay for it as well.

Mr. O'Leary

Is not that Act in being at the present time?

Mr. Corry

I am giving the Minister's condemnation of his own Act. I am stating that the farmer Minister for Agriculture kept that Act going, compelled farmers to license their bulls and paid something like £7,000 a year as a minimum to his inspectors from 1925 to 1931. Now he has the impertinence to stand up here, after he has been put out of office, and say that as a result of his bringing this Act into operation, the effect is that there is not a good milch cow left in the country.

Mr. O'Leary

Are these inspectors there at present?

Mr. Corry

You are too found of crying. I will give you a chance in a moment. You are always crying here while I am speaking. Now, that has been the effect. I say this much, that I agree with Deputy Hogan on that particular point. I entirely agree with him, and I put it up to our Minister for Agriculture that if he is going to spend this year £24,898 on the improvement of milk production, if he is going to give grants to the county committees of agriculture of £80,000, and going to pay at the same time £3,275 for the operation of the Live-Stock Breeding Act in this country, he cannot have the two together, and one of the two has got to go.

Mr. Belton

Which of them should go?

Mr. Corry

The Live-Stock Breeding Act should go. We have the experience here of a lawyer Minister for Agriculture who tells us that he has had the experience of seven years of it and that after seven years of that policy he has ruined the milk trade of the country. They are his own words. I have dealt with one change of programme that our Minister for Agriculture has brought in, and that, at least, has prevented the dairying industry of this country from being wiped out. If the last Minister for Agriculture had been here for the last 12 months there would not be a creamery running in this country to-day.

Mr. Belton

Prove it.

Mr. Corry

The proof was there that Deputy Hogan walked into the Lobby and voted against the Bill that increased the price of farmers' milk from 2½d. per gallon to 4d.

Mr. Belton

Out of the taxes of the country.

Mr. Donnelly

You want to have it both ways.

Mr. Corry

That was the first change. Now I come to the second change. When I was over there on those benches for four years I kept appealing to the then Minister to put a tariff on foreign barley. I was sneered at. We were told that Guinness's Brewery would go if there was a tariff put on foreign barley. A tariff has been put on foreign barley and, in addition, a home market was provided for our home barley, as a result of which we got this year an increase at the minimum of from 4/- to 4/6 per barrel on our barley over and above what we would have got if the last Minister for Agriculture had been still in office. We also got a market for our oats despite what Deputy Hogan says about the man who sells it to-day. The man who kept oats from October until to-day must be one of those who refused to pay his land annuities, or he must not be any one of those distressed farmers about whom Deputy MacDermot is always talking, because no distressed farmer would keep his oats in the loft from November until June. I sold my oats this year at £6 15s. a ton at the very time when the price of the best of white oats in the English market was £4 10s. a ton. In other words, I got £2 5s. a ton more for my oats than I would have got with the free market that all the talk is about. Deputies should face facts. And these are facts. In Scotland also, where there is no 40 per cent., in the great oat-growing country of Aberdeen, grain of the very best quality is selling at 4/8 per cwt. That is the price of oats. Deputy Hogan complained a while ago because they can only get 9/- a barrel here.

Mr. MacDermot

Is the Deputy aware that in many parts of the country it is impossible to sell oats at any price?

Mr. Corry

I suggest to Deputy MacDermot that he should have some land himself, and know something about it before he talks on the subject. The Deputy is completely out of touch with the farming community, and if anything proves that it is the Deputy's bewailing the state of the farmer who cannot sell oats in June that he harvested last September. I harvested last September and I had no trouble in getting over £2 more for my oats than I would have got with the free market. And if I had sold it a week sooner I would have got £7.

Mr. Belton

If it was all sold what are we to do now?

Mr. Corry

The Deputy has a complaint on the brain. We come now to a subject on which Deputy Belton is particularly interested. I am sorry that Deputy Dillon is not here to hear all about it for both these Deputies spent a whole day here telling us about pigs.

Mr. Belton

About what?

Mr. Corry

Pigs.

Mr. Belton

I do not know that I mentioned that at all.

Mr. Corry

Yes, you did. You spoke here for an hour and three-quarters the same day all about pigs and curling their hair and manicuring their toe nails.

Mr. Smith

He was talking for export.

Mr. Corry

In 1931 there was imported into this country £1,852,000 worth of pig meat. In 1932, the first year in which we took office, £1,145,000 worth of pig meat was imported. That is, £707,000 worth of a market kept here for the Irish farmer. If we take the first three months of this year and compare them with the first three months of last year, we find that for the first three months of last year 366,000 cwts. of pig meat were imported and for the first three months of this year 363,000 cwts were imported. That was a market of 3,000 cwts. for the Irish farmer.

Mr. Belton

What were the relative figures?

Mr. Corry

I will give the Deputy all the relative figures he wants. Perhaps I will give him more than he wants. The average price of pigs last week was 51/- per cwt. and the average price for the corresponding week last year was 49/—economic was, 40 per cent., and everything else.

Mr. Bennett

What is the average price for six months? (interruptions.)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I had to appeal for order for Deputy Belton when he was speaking.

Mr. Belton

We are only asking for information.

Mr. T. Kelly

Deputy Belton is always at it. Deputy Corry's common sense and knowledge are too much for them.

Mr. Corry

I am giving the exact figures for the benefit of this House. I say that our Minister for Agriculture preserved a market worth well over £1,000,000 for our farmers in the last 12 months in pigs alone, and that despite that fact, and despite the 40 per cent. and all the rest of it, the price of pigs this week is 2/- per cwt. higher than the price was this time 12 months ago.

Mr. Broderick

And potatoes £1 per ton.

Mr. Corry

Are you starting now? I shall have a few nice facts for you, too. I have dealt with butter produce. I have shown that the difference in the policy of our Minister for Agriculture and the policy of his predecessor in the Cumann na nGaedheal Government has been to the advantage of the dairy farmers. I have dealt with oats and barley. I would like to deal with wheat, since Deputy Belton is so anxious about wheat. The world price of wheat is about £6 or £7 a ton. I know that in 1926, when I gave up growing wheat, the price of the best wheat was between 6/- and 7/- a cwt. We are guaranteeing a price of £9 15/- a ton.

Mr. Belton

Out of our own pockets.

Mr. Corry

My dear man, you never had anything in your damned pocket, and what are you talking about? Deputy Hogan does not agree that we can produce suitable wheat in this country. I do not know what are the views of the other lawyer-leaders of the farmers, but Deputy Belton at least believes in wheat. We taught him that much.

Mr. Belton

I taught some members of the Fianna Fáil Party that much.

Mr. Corry

Short and all as was your stay, you learned something. Those matters are of very grave importance to the working farmer, who tills his land and provides employment; to the milking farmer in County Limerick and the tillage and dairy farmer of East Cork, who produces grain and wants a price for it, and who has cows and wants a price for their milk. I have no sympathy with the rancher. The sooner he gets out of ranching and the land is divided amongst other people the better for everybody. Possibly Deputy Belton visualises himself as a Minister for Agriculture if the Cumann na nGaedheal Party ever get back; but I would not give three farthings for their chances. It all depends on whether he will stop with them long enough. I do not think he will.

Mr. Donnelly

He might be a Minister to-day if he stayed where he was.

Mr. Corry

We hear a lot of talk about the price of cattle and the effect of the 40 per cent. tariff, and we hear a lot also about the great English market. Again I must have recourse to the farmers' bible, the "Farmers' Gazette." In the Scottish news we see that a gentleman who a few years ago got 2,220 guineas as a top price has now received as top price 42 guineas. We read of one sale where a man realised £28,000, and out of far more cattle this year he got only £800. Those are facts that Deputies opposite should remember. I suggest to Deputy MacDermot that he should leave us as an apostle, and go over to the Scottish farmers and endeavour to convert them. When he tells them about the 40 per cent. and how happy they should be and what this great market would be worth to them, I doubt very much if he would get them to pay £5,000,000 a year for it.

We heard Deputy Hogan and other Cumann na nGaedheal Deputies complaining about the terrible conditions following the English tariff. Deputy Hogan knows that from 1924 to 1931 the price of our agricultural produce in the English market dropped to the extent of £13,000,000. He knows that in the 12 months from 1930 to 1931 the price we got for our agricultural produce in the famous English market dropped by £6,000,000. Cumann na nGaedheal Deputies have got up one after another like unconverted heathens. On behalf of the ordinary working farmers I wish to thank the Minister for Agriculture for the efforts he has made to improve conditions. He has done a lot for the dairying farmer who is in a position to employ labour and who is now, thank God, owing to the Minister's policy, getting a price for what he produces.

Mr. Dillon

A voice crying in the wilderness.

Mr. Corry

It is a voice that, despite all the machinations of the Centre Party at the last General Election, got me 11,000 votes, more than all the members of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party in the constituency.

Mr. Brodrick

Will the Deputy thank the Minister on behalf of the small farmers for the 12/- duty on lambs?

Mr. Corry

As far as lambs are concerned——

Mr. Brodrick

The Deputy knows nothing about them.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

He is one himself.

Mr. Corry

I do know a lot about them. I will give the Deputy the price of lambs in Scotland.

Mr. O'Leary

They were 25 cents in Canada.

Mr. Corry

I got 25/- each for 40 of them.

Mr. Brodrick

40 lambs on 300 acres!

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must be allowed to make his case without further interruption.

Mr. Corry

I move to report progress. I will tell Deputies about lambs the next day.

Progress reported, the Committee to sit again to-morrow.