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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 8 Jun 1933

Vol. 48 No. 2

In Committee on Finance. - Public Services (Temporary Economies) Bill, 1933—Report.

Debate resumed on amendment 57:—
In page 7, in paragraph (a) of Part III of the Schedule, to delete the words "is less than £175" and substitute the words "is over £400" and to delete from and including the figures and words "200 but not less than £175.—5¼" to and including the words and figures "is £450 or more ... 8.—(Deputies William Norton and Timothy Murphy):

When I was speaking on this amendment last night, I said it was not correct for the Minister to say that teachers themselves had agreed to a reduction in their salaries in 1931. I said that their agreement involved the acceptance by the Government of full responsibility for making good the insolvency of the Pensions Fund. The cuts now proposed are greater than those proposed in 1931, at any rate, for teachers of £275 or upwards, because it is from there you start the 6¼ per cent. There is no provision in this Bill, or by agreement with the teachers, as far as we know, for dealing with the insolvency on the Government side, of the Pension Fund. It was, if you like, the sugar coating of the cut of 1931, that when the teachers felt that their time came to retire they would be paid pensions out of the fund provided for such pensions. The position is now, that the teachers' salaries are cut, and that a young teacher has to pay into this fund, which is insolvent, without any guarantee when it comes to his time to retire that there will be any money in the fund to pay him the pension to which he is entitled. Deputy Breathnach made a last appeal to the Minister to modify the cuts as far as the national teachers were concerned. I would join in that appeal if I thought it was any use. I am afraid, however, after the line the Minister has taken towards national teachers, especially, it would be very little use indeed. I doubt if an appeal to the Centre Party would have any better results. I would like, however, to appeal to the Centre Party to support this amendment. They should surely understand that the policy of wage cutting is not going to benefit the farmers of the country.

The policy of the Government in depriving the farmer of his only market has thrown him back on the powers of the people at home to absorb his agricultural produce. Helping the Government to reduce the purchasing power at home will only injure the farmer. The economies proposed in this Bill will not bring one penny into the pockets of the agricultural community. On the contrary they will only provide funds for the Government coffers for carrying on the economic war, and, therefore, there is good reason for stating that they are inimical to the interests of the farmers. Apart from what one might call the self-interest end, I think the farmers should not allow themselves to be carried away with the rather foolish cry about the big salaries that the teachers enjoy. That cry is of course absolute rubbish. Nor should they be led away by what some of them referred to in their speeches, namely, that the majority of the teachers supported Fianna Fáil at the last election. If it was true that the majority of the national teachers supported Fianna Fáil at the last election on the strength of the promises made by the Fianna Fáil Party, if they were short sighted enough to believe these promises, still I would not consider that any justification, or any reason for acting unjustly in this matter. I think it would be a very poor reason for seeking to take revenge upon the teachers because they were opposed to one in the political arena. The 1933 election will—at least some of us hope—not be the last election in this country, and one can assume that the national teachers, like many other electors, will be better able to appraise the promises of Fianna Fáil at the next General Election. I appeal, therefore, to the Centre Party to go into the Lobby in support of this amendment, to save the national teachers from these very unfair cuts.

The attitude of the Centre Party towards this amendment is not dictated by any spirit of revenge, on account of the attitude of the teachers at the general election. It is true the majority of them played the part of jingoes. I doubt if any class of the community was more jingo than the teachers at the last election. I doubt if any class of the community had more responsibility for the launching of this dispute with England than the teachers had. But apart from that I cannot see that any case has been made for excluding the teachers from the sacrifices the economic war brings in its train. I have no spirit of animosity or revenge in regard to the teachers, but I am in favour of all classes sharing this sacrifice, and the last class that should make a claim to be excluded is the class that undoubtedly had a great deal to do in bringing about the economic war.

Deputy Lynch said that an attack upon the standard of living is not going to help the farmers and he appeals to us for that reason to vote for the amendment. I wonder if there is any form of economy that Deputy Lynch would not consider an attack upon the standard of living. Of course, every economy when it comes to cutting down social services, or people's salaries, may be superficially described as an attack upon the standard of living. Supposing you take the instance of a family, and you see that the family is spending more than it can afford, or that it is spending out of proportion to its real wealth, and you want to retrench, you can only do so by reducing comforts, amenities and luxuries. From that point of view, you are superficially cutting down their standing of living, but if you took the long view, you are not cutting it down at all. You are saving that family by making them economise in time, so that in the long run they will be able to enjoy the comforts of life. No one has a right to talk of economies as meaning a reduction in the standard of living. When we compare the expenditure in this country, with its expenditure in the past or with the expenditure of other nations of about the same wealth as our own, we find we are spending grossly beyond our means. Apart altogether from the economic war we have to realise that there is the greatest need for economies in the country.

Question put: "That the tabular statement in paragraph a, Part III, stand part of the Schedule."
The Dáil divided. Tá, 68; Níl, 39.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breen, Daniel.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Browne, William Frazer.
  • Carty, Frank.
  • Cleary, Micheál.
  • Concannon, Helena.
  • Cooney, Eamonn.
  • Corkery, Daniel.
  • Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
  • Crowley, Timothy.
  • Daly, Denis.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Doherty, Hugh.
  • Donnelly, Eamon.
  • Dowdall, Thomas P.
  • Finlay, John.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Gibbons, Seán.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Hales, Thomas.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Holohan, Richard.
  • Houlihan, Patrick.
  • Jordan, Stephen.
  • Keely, Séamus P.
  • Kehoe, Patrick.
  • Kelly, James Patrick.
  • Kelly, Thomas.
  • Kent, William Rice.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kissane, Eamonn.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • Lynch, James B.
  • MacDermot, Frank.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maguire, Ben.
  • Maguire, Conor Alexander.
  • Moane, Edward.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • O'Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Dowd, Patrick.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Kelly, Seán Thomas.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Pearse, Margaret Mary.
  • Rice, Edward.
  • Rogers, Patrick James.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick Joseph.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Victory, James.
  • Ward, Francis C. (Dr.).

Níl

  • Alton, Ernest Henry.
  • Anthony, Richard.
  • Belton, Patrick.
  • Bennett, George Cecil.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Brodrick, Seán.
  • Burke, James Michael.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Costello, John Aloysius.
  • McGuire, James Ivan.
  • Morrisroe, James.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, James Edward.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Connor, Batt.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas Francis.
  • O'Leary, Daniel.
  • Davin, William.
  • Davitt, Robert Emmet.
  • Desmond, William.
  • Dockrell, Henry Morgan.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Esmonde, Osmond Grattan.
  • Fitzgerald, Desmond.
  • Keating, John.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • McDonogh, Martin.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • O'Mahony, The.
  • O'Neill, Eamonn.
  • O'Sullivan, Gearóid.
  • O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Redmond, Bridget Mary.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Thrift, William Edward.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Little and Traynor; Níl: Deputies Corish and Davin.
Question declared carried.

That decision covers amendment 58.

I move amendment 59:—

In page 7 to delete paragraph (b) of Part III of the Schedule.

The purpose of the amendment is to exempt from the cut in salaries untrained assistant teachers with a scale maximum of £139 10/- per annum, and junior assistant mistresses. As was clearly indicated in the text of the Bill, the Minister even goes to persons in receipt of salaries of a maximum of £139 10/- and is intent upon making these people, lowly paid as they are, make a contribution towards this £280,000 which he wants to get in this way, because he is legislatively too lazy to get it any other way. We had a most extraordinary demonstration of inaccuracy from the Minister last night. He said that one justification for cutting the salaries of teachers was that they had agreed to the cut. On that point I want to ask the Minister one question. What is the justification for cutting the pay of Civic Guards? Surely they have not agreed. What is the justification for cutting the salaries of civil servants? They have not agreed to the cut. On that particular issue the Minister was just as weak with argument as he was on other amendments to the Bill. I suppose the same philosophy is going to apply to untrained teachers and junior assistant mistresses. I suppose their salaries are to be cut because they have agreed to a cut. That is a most extraordinary statement for the first Minister for Finance in the Fianna Fáil Executive Council to make. The last Executive Council agreed to pay another country over £5,000,000 per annum. The first chance they got the people repudiated that settlement and put in a new Executive Council.

The first chance they got?

The first chance.

What about 1927?

When the real facts of the position were made known to the people, and the blundering atmosphere surrounding these facts made clear——

"Blundering atmosphere."

——there was very short shrift for the Party responsible for the bargain. At all events, we had the position that the last Government agreed to pay a certain sum of money to another Government——

Untrained teachers.

The untrained teachers are a part of this argument, and if I had any doubt about that I might quote what the Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Lemass) said on the 27th January, 1932:—

There is no need to cut the teachers or the Guards, and the Budget deficiency can be met by retaining the land annuities and the R.I.C. pensions.

That is the point I want to make, that the last Administration agreed to pay £5,000,000 to another Government, and that the people repudiated that settlement and put in a new Executive Council which said: "We are here not to pay that money, and we have a mandate from the people not to pay it." That is the attitude which the Minister for Finance takes up in his negotiations with another Government and, in my opinion, rightly takes up. While the Minister was whistling that tune with one portion of his mouth he was trying to whistle another one with the other portion. He comes along to the teachers and says: "You made a bargain with Cumann na nGaedheal, and although your executive, with your authority made that bargain, and although subsequently you repudiated that bargain, still you are not entitled to get away with it because at one stage you made it." The Minister cannot have it both ways. Either he is right in his negotiations with Mr. Thomas and wrong with the teachers, or right with the teachers and wrong with Mr. Thomas. I suggest to the Minister that he is right with Mr. Thomas—as I believe he is—but that he is clearly wrong with the teachers. The Minister knows that his attitude on this whole matter is perfectly inconsistent with any kind of clear reasoning, and perfectly inconsistent with the attitude he adopted on the question of the disputed payments.

We had another declaration by the Minister for Finance last night, and on this matter he appears to have thrown all accuracy to the winds, so desperate was he in his efforts to justify this unjustified cut. Until he was corrected by Deputy Breathnach, the Minister stated that the speech delivered by the President at the Rathmines Town Hall was made with special reference to civil servants and did not apply to the teachers. The Minister was duly corrected and admonished by a Deputy in his own Party, the chairman of the teachers' organisation, who, I think, in a matter of this kind might well be given credit for more accuracy because of his more intimate concern with the teachers than the Minister. What is the position? I took the trouble this morning to look up the "Irish Press" of the 16th February, 1932. There is a panel paragraph in the "Irish Press" of that date, the morning of the election, which says:

"In reply to queries from teachers, Mr. de Valera has announced that the principles which he stated in regard to civil servants' salaries will also apply to the teachers."

But not referred to in the speech at Rathmines.

I think the Minister put his foot into it badly last night, without repeating the performance this evening. In my desire to be accurate, and not with a desire to get over some of the stuff that the Minister got over last night on this matter, I made further inquiries in order to ascertain where exactly the statement emanated from. I got the interesting information that it was 'phoned by the President to a person who is now a member of the executive council of the teachers' organisation. Does the Minister for Finance challenge the accuracy of that statement? The Minister stated last night that the speech at Rathmines Town Hall was only intended to apply to civil servants. We have the Minister's official newspaper saying that Mr. de Valera's intention was that "the same principles which he stated in regard to civil servants' salaries will also apply to the teachers." When I probed the matter further I found that that information was communicated to the teachers' executive on the telephone by the President to a person who is now a member of the executive of the teachers' organisation. I think that proves conclusively that the Minister's statement last night was in accurately used in an attempt to bolster up his impossible attitude on this Bill.

Seeing that his Party and himself are so deeply committed on this matter I appealed to the Minister last night to give some evidence that, in respect to the teachers, he would be more liberal-minded towards them than he is in the section. In June last the Minister offered the teachers' executive a five per cent. cut in salaries and a full settlement of the pensions question. In this Bill there is no question of a settlement of the pensions issue, and cuts varying from five per cent. to eight per cent. are being imposed. If the Minister was prepared to agree to cuts of five per cent. in June, with a settlement of the pensions question, what has happened in the meantime to justify him in declining apparently, to settle the pensions question, and inflicting a cut in salaries in this Bill, varying from 5 per cent. to 8 per cent. and upwards?

Ask the teachers.

I can imagine the reason. The Minister is so accustomed to getting his own way at the Party meetings that he cannot understand anyone opposing his point of view. The Minister is so used to getting away with those eloquent speeches of his that he is rather annoyed, vexed and piqued with everybody who does not regard his decisions and utterances as something that came out of the Books of Truth and Revelation. The fact that the Minister is piqued with the teachers' executive, and the fact that the Minister is vexed simply because somebody challenged the equity of those cuts, is no reason for cutting the teachers further. I agree that it might satisfy the Minister's own sense of vengeance in the matter, but the fact that the Minister is piqued is no reason for increasing the cut on the teachers whom last June he was prepared to allow off with a five per cent. cut, he to settle the pension question. I do not think that the Minister has made any case whatever for imposing a cut on teachers who, as I said earlier, are not overpaid but seriously underpaid. In this particular section he is seeking to impose cuts on even the lowest paid of the teachers. I wonder whether the Minister believes that his Budget is going to be balanced, and the financial structure of the State preserved from decay, merely by cutting to the extent of one per cent. persons with a maximum salary of £139 10/- per annum.

I appealed to the Minister last night to try to make restitution for some of his misdeeds towards the teachers in connection with this whole Bill. Biblical history, I think, records that Pharaoh when appealed to frequently only hardened his heart. We now have the Minister for Finance a modern Pharaoh in the matter of cuts. Instead of making some effort at restitution he simply hardens his heart. I suppose in reply to this particular amendment he is going to make another one of what Deputy Cormac Breathnach last night called ill-tempered attacks on the teachers, whom apparently he is not content with cutting, but against whom he also wants to deliver tirades.

Might we have an explanation from the Minister as to the inaccurate speeches delivered last night, or do I take it that he withdraws them and apologises.

That would take us all night.

Does the Minister still say that his speech last night was accurate?

It was quite accurate.

Only misleading!

Question put: "That the words and figures proposed to be deleted stand part of the Schedule."
The Dáil divided. Tá, 66; Níl, 40.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breen, Daniel.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Browne, William Frazer.
  • Carty, Frank.
  • Cleary, Mícheál.
  • Concannon, Helena.
  • Cooney, Eamonn.
  • Corkery, Daniel.
  • Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
  • Keely, Séamus P.
  • Kehoe, Patrick.
  • Kelly, James Patrick.
  • Kelly, Thomas.
  • Kent, William Rice.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kissane, Eamonn.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • MacDermot, Frank.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maguire, Ben.
  • Maguire, Conor Alexander.
  • Moane, Edward.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Crowley, Timothy.
  • Daly, Denis.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • Doherty, Hugh.
  • Donnelly, Eamon.
  • Dowdall, Thomas P.
  • Finlay, John.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Gibbons, Seán.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Hales, Thomas.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Holohan, Richard.
  • Houlihan, Patrick.
  • Jordan, Stephen.
  • O'Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Dowd, Patrick.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Kelly, Seán Thomas.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Pearse, Margaret Mary.
  • Rice, Edward.
  • Rogers, Patrick James.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick Joseph.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Victory, James.
  • Ward, Francis C. (Dr.).

Níl

  • Alton, Ernest Henry.
  • Anthony, Richard.
  • Belton, Patrick.
  • Bennett, George Cecil.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Brodrick, Seán.
  • Burke, James Michael.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Costello, John Aloysius.
  • Davin, William.
  • Davitt, Robert Emmet.
  • Desmond, William.
  • Dockrell, Henry Morgan.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Esmonde, Osmond Grattan.
  • Fitzgerald, Desmond.
  • Hogan, Patrick (Clare).
  • Keating, John.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGuire, James Ivan.
  • Morrisroe, James.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, James Edward.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas Francis.
  • O'Leary, Daniel.
  • O'Mahony, The.
  • O'Neill, Eamonn.
  • O'Sullivan, Gearóid.
  • O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Redmond, Bridget Mary.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Thrift, William Edward.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Little and Tra ynor; Níl: Deputies Corish and Davin.
Question declared carried.

I beg to move amendment 60:—

In page 7, to delete paragraph (c) of Part III of the Schedule.

I am beginning to wonder whether it is any use moving amendments in this House. The Minister was very vocal on the Second Reading of the Bill, and made long and, I am sure he believed, eloquent speeches on the Committee Stage of the Bill. He spoke five times on one particular section—I agree, Sir, that you have good reason to look astonished at my statement, but if you look up the report you will find that the Minister spoke five times on one section.

Surely that is a reflection on the Chair —the implication being that I was disorderly and that the Chair permitted it.

I do not think that there was any suggestion of a reflection on the Chair, or that the Chair permitted disorder.

The Minister had better carry his own baby. He made five speeches on that section and there was no substance or reason in any of them.

They converted the House, anyway.

They had no effect except that the legionaries walked into the Division Lobby for the Division. As I say, I do not think there is any use moving amendments, because this voluble and loqacious Minister, whom we heard at such length on the Second Reading of the Bill and on the Committee Stage, has now become the strong silent man. We cannot get a word out of him and any words that do come are the result of the absolute imagination of the Minister. There is no use moving amendments and, apparently, there is no use in asking him even now to make a case in defence of the Bill and I, therefore, content myself with formally moving this amendment.

Is the Deputy pressing the amendment?

Oh, certainly. We will make the Minister walk if we cannot make him talk.

From experience, I think, it is much easier to make the Minister talk than it is to make him walk but, unfortunately, his walking is more effective than his talking. I think that really the Minister has absolutely not met any of the cases. He did not meet them on the last stage or on this. The only thing I wish to say is that I am glad he is not making a case because those who are not fully familiar with the figures that the Minister has given in all his speeches might be deceived. They were worse than downright misstatements because there were many figures brought forward by him that could only be understood to be wrong by people with a full knowledge of the figures.

I have finished do with the amendment?

I had finished what I was saying.

Question put: "That the paragraph proposed to be deleted stand."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 63; Níl, 37.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breen, Daniel.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Browne, William Frazer.
  • Carty, Frank.
  • Clery, Mícheál.
  • Concannon, Helena.
  • Cooney, Eamonn.
  • Corkery, Daniel.
  • Corry, Martin John.
  • Crowley, Timothy.
  • Daly, Denis.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • Doherty, Hugh.
  • Donnelly, Eamonn.
  • Dowdall, Thomas P.
  • Finlay, John.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Gibbons, Seán.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Hales, Thomas.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Holohan, Richard.
  • Houlihan, Patrick.
  • Jordan, Stephen.
  • Keely, Séamus P.
  • Kehoe, Patrick.
  • Kelly, James Patrick.
  • Kelly, Thomas.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kissane, Eamonn.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little. Patrick John.
  • MacDermot, Frank.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maguire, Ben.
  • Maguire, Conor Alexander.
  • Moane, Edward.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • O'Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Kelly, Seán Thomas.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Pearse, Margaret Mary.
  • Rice, Edward.
  • Rogers, Patrick James.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick Joseph.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Victory, James.
  • Ward, Francis C. (Dr.).

Níl

  • Alton, Ernest Henry.
  • Anthony, Richard.
  • Belton, Patrick.
  • Bennett, George Cecil.
  • Broderick, William Joseph.
  • Brodrick, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Costello, John Aloysius.
  • Davin, William.
  • Davitt, Robert Emmet.
  • Desmond, William.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Esmonde, Osmond Grattan.
  • Fitzgerald, Desmond.
  • Hogan, Patrick (Clare).
  • Keating, John.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGuire, James Ivan.
  • Morrisroe, James.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, James Edward.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas Francis.
  • O'Leary, Daniel.
  • O'Mahony, The.
  • O'Neill, Eamonn.
  • O'Sullivan, Gearóid.
  • O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Redmond, Bridget Mary.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Thrift, William Edward.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Little and Traynor; Níl: Deputies Corish and Davin.
Question declared carried.

I beg to move amendment 61:—

In page 7, to delete paragraph (d) of Part III of the Schedule.

The purpose of this amendment is to exempt from the provisions of sub-section (d) the teachers who receive special grants in the Fior-Ghealtacht. We have had during the past ten years quite a considerable number of declarations, from both the last Government and recently from this Government, of tender regard for the Irish language and both Governments have expressed a desire to promote it in every possible way. This seems to me to be a very peculiar way of promoting the Irish language. Under this sub-section it is proposed to inflict a 6 per cent. cut on the special grants given to teachers in Fíor-Ghaeltacht schools. I suggest to the Minister that this is just the way not to encourage Irish. In any case, the cuts proposed in this Bill are from grants which, when originally awarded, were considered to be reasonable and in no way excessive. If Deputy Cormac Breathnach were here I would make a special appeal to him for support on this. At all events, I would appeal to him to deputise for the Minister and speak on this. He is an ex-president of the Gaelic League, he is a member of the Gaelic League executive committee at the present time and he is keenly interested in the study of Irish. As well, it is all members of the teaching profession who will be cut, and I would expect that the Deputy who has so many connections might, on that account, come into the Division Lobby with us so as to make it clear, at all events, that he dissents from this method of cutting the special grants to teachers in the Fior-Ghaeltacht schools. These grants, as I have said, are in no sense excessive. In many respects they are inadequate. I think it is a very poor recompense for teachers who have made a special study of the language for the purpose of imparting it to the children in the Fíor-Ghaeltacht schools that they should be singled out for a cut in the special grants awarded to them. The Minister cannot possibly plead that it is necessary to cut the special grants awarded to the teachers in the Fíor-Ghaeltacht schools in order to balance his Budget. He knows that the amount he will receive under these cuts will be relatively small, and it is in no sense essential that the Minister should reject the amendment in order to balance his Budget.

Question put: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 60; Níl, 36.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breen, Daniel.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Browne, William Frazer.
  • Carty, Frank.
  • Cleary, Mícheál.
  • Concannon, Helena.
  • Cooney, Eamonn.
  • Corkery, Daniel.
  • Corry, Martin John.
  • Crowley, Timothy.
  • Daly, Denis.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • Doherty, Hugh.
  • Donnelly, Eamonn.
  • Dowdall, Thomas P.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Gibbons, Seán.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Hales, Thomas.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Houlihan, Patrick.
  • Jordan, Stephen.
  • Keely, Séamus P.
  • Kehoe, Patrick.
  • Kelly, James Patrick.
  • Kelly, Thomas.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kissane, Eamonn.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • MacDermot, Frank.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maguire, Ben.
  • Maguire, Conor Alexander.
  • Moane, Edward.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • O'Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Kelly, Seán Thomas.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Pearse, Margaret Mary.
  • Rice, Edward.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick Joseph.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Victory, James.
  • Ward, Francis C. (Dr.).

Níl

  • Alton, Ernest Henry.
  • Anthony, Richard.
  • Belton, Patrick.
  • Bennett, George Cecil.
  • Broderick, William Joseph.
  • Brodrick, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Costello, John Aloysius.
  • Davin, William.
  • Davitt, Robert Emmet.
  • Desmond, William.
  • Dockrell, Henry Morgan.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Esmonde, Osmond Grattan.
  • Fitzgerald, Desmond.
  • Hogan, Patrick (Clare).
  • Keating, John.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGuire, James Ivan.
  • Morrisroe, James.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, James Edward.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas Francis.
  • O'Leary, Daniel.
  • O'Mahony, The.
  • O'Sullivan, Gearóid.
  • O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Redmond, Bridget Mary.
  • Thrift, William Edward.
Tellers—Tá: Deputies Little and Traynor; Níl: Deputies Corish and Davin.
Question declared carried.

I move amendment No. 62:—

In page 7 in paragraph (a) of Part IV of the Schedule—(1) to delete the words and figures "does not exceed £300" and substitute the words and figures "does not exceed £400"; (2) to delete the words "exceeds £300 but does not exceed £400—2 per cent. per annum of the salary"; (3) to delete the figures and words "2 per annum from the first £400 of the annual rate of salary"; and (4) to delete the word "plus" before the figures "2½".

The purpose of this amendment is to endeavour to exempt salaries under £400 per annum from any cut whatever. It is not, of course, a desirable way of tackling the problem, but on the Second Reading we voted against the Bill, and on the Committee Stage we sought to render the Bill inoperative by deleting various classes affected by the Bill. Having been defeated on both issues, we are now endeavouring to ensure that if the Bill is going to be passed it will be passed in a manner that will inflict the minimum of hardship on the people affected. This amendment, as far as civil servants are concerned, seeks to exempt them from any cuts in respect of salaries which are not in excess of £400 per annum. As I mentioned on the Committee Stage, civil servants' remuneration is calculated by reference to two elements, one the basic or pre-war salary and the other the cost-of-living bonus, which fluctuates with the rise or fall in the cost-of-living index figure. Civil servants have always contended that the cost-of-living index figure as applied did not provide them with adequate compensation for the increase in the cost of living over the pre-war level—in other words, that the cost-of-living bonus and the basic or pre-war salary were not adequate compensation having regard to the extent to which the purchasing power of their salaries had shrunk as a result of the increase in the price of commodities.

When I mention that the full cost-of-living bonus is only applied where the basic salary does not exceed £91 5s. 0d., that 60 per cent. is applied to that portion above £91 5s. 0d. but which is not in excess of £200, and that only 45 per cent. applies in cases where the basic remuneration exceeds £200, I think the House will feel that as far as the cost-of-living bonus is concerned, it by no means compensates civil servants for the shrinkage in their pre-war salaries by reason of the increase in prices. After the index-figure arrangement was first introduced in March, 1920, the cost-of-living index figure rose, but I think for only a very short period—for approximately 12 months. Since that time there has been a very steady decline in the cost-of-living figure, a decline which has resulted in inflicting on civil servants, who are subject to the cost-of-living bonus, a cut in remuneration greater than is endured by any other section either inside the public service or outside it. When I mention that under the cost-of-living bonus arrangement the income of a civil servant has fallen by as much as 40 per cent. since March, 1921, the severity of the cuts they have endured will be apparent to all. Notwithstanding the fact that they have chafed under that arrangement, notwithstanding the fact that they have protested for many years—at one time with the support of the present Minister for Finance—that this cost-of-living bonus was not adequate to meet the increased cost of living, not merely are they going to suffer a loss of income in respect of the cost-of-living bonus but they are also going to be cut in respect of the basic or pre-war proportion of their salaries. In other words, they are being slashed at one end of their remuneration by the fall in the cost-of-living index figure and at the other end they are being slashed by the Minister's proposals as contained in this Bill.

Civil servants are at present, and have been for some time in a very unfavourable position in relation to their colleagues in the Six Counties or their colleagues in Great Britain. Following the change of Government a new scale of salaries was introduced here. That scale of salary provided for lower rates in respect of new entrants. These new entrants into the Civil Service here had to be content with a much lower salary than they would have had if the old scale had obtained, a much lesser scale of salary than their colleagues in the Six Counties or Great Britain had. On the top of that new low differentiated scale, which was applicable here since 1924, it is now proposed that there shall be a further differentiation, that there shall be a further cut in the scales of salaries which were cut in 1924, and which will now be further cut by this Bill. You have, in addition, the overriding cut of the heavy decline in the cost-of-living bonus. If the Minister has any conscience left after the many unconscionable things he has done in connection with the Bill, I think, in respect of the civil servants he should relent in the same hard-hearted attitude he has displayed since the Bill was introduced right up to and perhaps including this particular amendment. Civil servants have suffered a reduction of approximately 40 per cent. in many cases in their income since March, 1931. There is no case for cutting them further, no case based on equity. In any case we have the testimony of the President which I must quote again in order to impress it on the Minister. Speaking in the Town Hall, Rathmines, he said that they did not propose to cut salaries between £300 and £400. The Minister selects the £300—not the £300 basic salary as the President clearly intended.

He did not say that.

I must strongly object to the Minister for Finance purporting to interpret what the President said. Last night we had a lamentable exhibition of inaccuracy by the Minister.

If the Deputy will be man enough to put that in unparliamentary language I shall show that what he is saying is not true.

Will the Minister agree to postpone this amendment until the President comes home?

I know that Deputy Norton has not interpreted the President's words correctly.

We had the Minister saying last night that the President never intended his Rathmines speech to cover the teachers.

No, I did not say that.

Does the Minister deny that he said it?

I did not say that.

In the sheer desperation to which he was driven last night, I suggest that the Minister does not remember what he said.

That is all very well, but I am going to stand by my Parliamentary privileges and say that I did not use the words Deputy Norton has ascribed to me. I did not use those words, but the Deputy, in order to be quite fair to himself, should produce to the House what I did say.

Should produce to the House what you did say?

Yes, if he is not relying on his imagination for the substance of his speech.

There was a time when I used to read the speeches of the Minister when he was a democrat, when he believed in progressive views, but having regard to many actions of the Minister during the last 12 months, and when I see——

Now you prefer to manufacture the speeches for yourself.

The Minister ought to be congratulated on breaking his silence, even though it is a disorderly break in the silence. The Minister said last night that the Rathmines speech of the President did not cover the teachers. I proved to the Minister from the columns of the Irish Press, that is not prejudiced in my favour, that the President stated that the Rathmines speech covered, in principle, his attitude towards the teachers. I have stated also that the President 'phoned that information to a member of the teachers' executive.

Very extraordinary.

Very extraordinary, but very extraordinary things are done during elections, especially on polling day, and Deputy Donnelly ought to be the last to complain of anything extraordinary at elections. In order that this whole matter can be definitely decided, I am prepared to accept Deputy Davin's suggestion and have this matter adjourned until the President returns. If the Minister will produce his President, I shall produce the person to whom the President spoke, and then we can see who is telling the absolutely simple truth.

Will the Deputy also produce the statement which the President made during the general election of 1933 in regard to the teachers? It is much more relevant.

That is when you went for your "cut" majority.

Have you got that?

Deputy Donnelly asked if I have got that. I suggest that he has not in his possession even a copy of the Bill we are discussing.

Here you are.

The Cement Bill! I suggest that on this amendment the Minister has a particularly weak case. He knows well that civil servants' remuneration has been cut seriously. He knows that there has been applied in the Free State, since the change of Government in 1922, new low scales of salary. He is proposing now to cut these new low scales of salary in defiance of the undertaking given by the President, in defiance of what the Minister himself at one time believed. I do not know whether it is worth while appealing to the Minister on this matter to see the unreasonableness of his attitude, but I do say that on this particular matter the Minister has a very weak case. He is not merely an accessory both before and after the fact in slashing the remuneration of civil servants through his cost-of-living bonus machinery, but he is proposing also to cut basic salaries. Having regard to the low rates of salary, having regard to the onerous, responsible, and exacting duties which they perform, having regard to their domestic responsibility, and having regard to the paramount consideration that efficiency cannot be purchased at the price of low wages and salaries, I suggest to the Minister that on this occasion he might reconsider what he proposes to do under the Bill.

There are one or two points to which I should like to draw attention in connection with the Schedule. The amendment presents us with the lesser of two evils. To the extent to which we are committing ourselves by voting, I should like to explain that it is in that setting we are voting for the amendment. This particular part of the Schedule deals with "Rates of deduction from salaries of persons employed in any capacity in a Preparatory College and of persons employed in any civil capacity in the public service to whom none of the foregoing parts of this Schedule applies." Civil servants are roughly divided into two classes, those who were in the service previous to the signing of the Treaty and those who came in after the signing of the Treaty. I leave out for a moment those who have been dealt with and who made special arrangements when coming over. I have always considered that one of the objectionable articles of the Treaty was the one which sought to provide for the security of civil servants. In a sense it might be said to be a reflection upon the honour of future Governments of this State that such a provision was necessary. It was put in, at any rate, and according to that article they have their rights under the Treaty. We were told here some 12 months ago by no less a person than the President that these rights could not be abrogated, that the Act of Parliament in question could not be repealed, altered, or amended. This Bill, and in particular this Schedule, is altering that Act, no matter what may be said to the contrary, and to that extent there is a breach of faith, to my mind, on the part of the Government of this State or of the Oireachtas of this State in doing that. In a sense, it almost seems to justify whatever misgivings there were on the part of civil servants when seeking to have their rights enshrined in the Treaty in Article 10.

I submit to you, Sir, that this speech is not in order on the amendment. The House has already decided to cut the salaries of this particular class of civil servants and the only question is whether a limit of £300 or £400 should be fixed.

On the point of order, technically the Minister's contention is correct, but business has been got through very expeditiously for the last hour and the Chair has allowed considerable latitude in view of that fact. I am allowing the Deputy to continue.

The Minister is insatiable.

That is the first phase. I make no comment on it. I simply present the House with the facts. I regret very much indeed that it was considered necessary, in connection with the agreement that we entered into with another country, that the employees they left behind should be safeguarded by a provision such as that, which ought not to have been necessary.

Unfortunately it was apparently necessary, and now what we have got to consider in connection with this amendment is whether we will limit the damage that has been done by the breaking of our plighted troth to those officials. The amendment gives those civil servants who entered into the service of the State in the last eight or nine or ten years certain advantages. They came in at lower salaries. They made their bargain and it is wrong that they should be put forward now for any worse treatment. In protecting them our own honour is at stake. If we had entered into a conference with the civil servants and pointed out to them the national necessities they would be at one with us in trying to find a solution. I support the amendment as the lesser of two evils.

In view of the latitude that has been given to the Leader of the Opposition I shall have to say something. There is no breach of faith with the civil servants. There is no breach of any agreement entered into with the civil servants or with any servant of this State or any other State. The rights which those civil servants had under Article 10 still remain to them. If the Deputy had been in his place when this matter was debated during the Committee Stage he would not have made the speech to which we have just listened. He would not have wasted the time of the House. When this matter was challenged by the Deputy who was Attorney-General in his own administration it was clearly pointed out that the only right the transferred officer had was a right——

To have his salary cut.

——to come before the Civil Service Compensation Board. That right is still secure to the civil servant.

Did you not cut his salary?

Deputy Cosgrave lightheartedly accuses the Government of a breach of faith with the civil servants on the very eve of our going into conference with the representatives of another Government. A conference on the issues of which depended to a large extent the fortunes of the State—— Deputy Cosgrave accuses us——

I still do.

Because it is the Deputy's purpose here to make the better appear the worse, to blacken this country in the eyes of the world and to uphold the case of those with whom we have at the present moment an issue in dispute. That is why Deputy Cosgrave made that foolish, irresponsible, ill-informed and misleading speech.

Will the Minister explain Section 5 of this after the speech he has made?

I would like to know a little more from the Minister as to what solace civil servants with salaries less than £400 a year will get from the repeated, impassioned and senseless statements of the Minister. I should like also to say that this is somewhat a little more than the preaching of the Party opposite. We all heard for many, many years that no person is worth more than £1,000 per annum, whether that person was a civil servant, judge, teacher or Minister or anybody else. Nobody can deny that that was preached all over the country. There was a general tendency towards pruning down or planning down of salaries and the standard of living. There was also preached an appeal to the persons who did not happen at the time to have reached the higher scale. I understand that a Deputy on the opposite benches used the expression from time to time "the under dog." Deputy Corry always represented himself as standing for the "under dog". This amendment is really one which does stand for the "under dog." This amendment is one for which I am sure that Deputy Corry will vote. It is, as Deputy Cosgrave said, the lesser of two evils. It does attempt to take out of the general principle of the Bill a small section of the numbers affected by it.

There is one matter which has not been referred to here in the general discussion on civil servants. The vast majority of the civil servants have to live in Dublin, unfortunately for themselves. You do not find civil servants in Ballydehob, Ballyporeen or Ballyjamesduff. They have to live in Dublin. Whatever one says about the standard of living, or the scale of living bonus granted arising out of the cost of prices, everybody in this House must agree that the standard of living and the cost of living in Dublin are higher than in Ballydehob, Ballyporeen, Ballyjamesduff or, as somebody has said, in England. I think if the Minister insists on refusing this amendment he will be doing an injury, not to his Party or to his Government, but to this country and to the younger civil servants who have come in here for the past eight, nine or ten years, and who are and will necessarily be for years under £400 a year. They cannot be expected to give that attention, that energy and that full efficiency of brain power to their work that one should expect from a contented civil service at present and about which those on the Front Bench opposite talked so much in the past. I would really appeal to the Minister to make some concession on this amendment. After all, Governments will come and Governments will go, but the civil servants must be there anyhow. If you have a discontented lower grade civil servant you cannot expect him to develop into an efficient higher grade civil servant.

Deputy O'Sullivan has been kind enough to bring in about the under dog. Deputy O'Sullivan and those with him have been whipping the under dog for the last ten years and when we were in opposition and made appeals for the under dog and asked them to give a little less loot and to save those who had to pay the piper, the ordinary tenant farmers of the country, we know the answer we got from Deputy O'Sullivan and those with him. It is the farmers of the country who have to foot this bill and to find the £13,700,000 that Deputy O'Sullivan and those associated with him clapped down on the country in salaries to paid officials. This country cannot afford to pay £13,700,000 to paid officials. They could not afford it at any time since Deputy Cosgrave became President of the State in 1922.

I agree with that.

I am very glad you do. Those people could far better afford that cut in 1924 than the old age pensioners could afford a cut in their pensions. The people who get these salaries could much better afford a cut than the old age pensioners. We hear a lot about income tax. Compare the farmer's income in 1921 with the farmer's income in 1927, when we new Land Bill was introduced, or the farmer's income in 1931, when we had added compensation for this disturbance clause into the latest Land Bill. Compare these things and ask yourself where was the money to come from. I made my position very clear to the House before on this Bill. If you go back to 1922——

Are we not now in 1933?

You are. I am glad it is sinking into your heads now.

Talk of the farmer in 1933.

This is the result. It is about time we had this Bill. I was certainly in favour of the under-dog and if I could have got any fair measure of support in this House for my proposals which would not hit the under-dog I would have moved them, but I could not get such support. They were very anxious to preserve the top-notchers and they did not give a hang what happened the under-dog. Deputy O'Sullivan talks about the man with a thousand a year. There was never in this country a man worth more than a thousand a year to the country. If there is a man worth more elsewhere, in God's name, let him go and get it.

What about your Front Bench?

What about your front bench which sat there shamelessly drawing double the salary?

There is a contrast.

You will not be a front bencher any more. Since Deputy O'Sullivan was so anxious to get me up, I hope he likes a few of the truths I told him. I hope they will sink in. We heard a lot about these little agreements—Article 10 and so on— that the salaries of officials were never to be touched. I am sorry a few other agreements were not made which would safeguard the taxpayers and the ordinary workmen. When Deputy O'Sullivan talks about the high prices in Dublin, does he realise who are causing the high prices? It is the highly-paid officials in Dublin who are shoving up the cost of living in Dublin. The unfortunate workman has to pay the same prices out of his week's wages. We have heard the tale about the poor civil servant with £1,500 a year who has to go in a Ford car when he used to go in a Rolls Royce. We have heard about the insurance on his house and all the other items which he has to pay. I am sick of that old tale. It is played out.

What about ? for your 9d. butter?

Those gentlemen opposite told us that people would probably have to die of starvation but nobody will die of starvation while we have people with salaries of £1,500 a year which can be cut.

I have been listening for some hours to members on the Labour Benches accusing the Government of breach of faith and not merely accusing the Government of breach of faith but accusing them with the greatest vehemence and even offensiveness of language of a breach of faith. A few moments ago, because Deputy Cosgrave ventured to make the same accusation, the Minister for Finance thought it a proper thing to get up and accuse him of trying to embarrass the Government in the coming Economic Conference. I really feel that a protest ought to be made against that attitude—against the constant attempt which is made to represent people on the Opposite Benches as traitors to their country.

I am very glad that Deputy Corry was dragged into the net by Deputy O'Sullivan. When he stood up, I thought that he would offer to the House some explanation of his failure to reproduce on this stage of the Bill the amendment which stood in his name on the Committee Stage and which he did not then move. I understand, as Deputy Corry understands, how he was saved the trouble of having to move that amendment at that stage. He made a statement here that, if he had been assured of any fair measure of support for the amendment which stood in his name on Committee Stage, he would have reproduced the amendment on this stage and moved it. May I ask him—he will probably have an opportunity of replying—how he endeavoured to secure support for that amendment? Was it inside the ranks of the Fianna Fáil Party at the Party meeting, or was it in the Lobby canvassing Deputies, irrespective of Party, that he is supposed to have found that he could not get the necessary measure of support to carry the amendment.

Ridiculous.

Perhaps Deputy Donnelly would make his maiden speech on this amendment and explain what Deputy Corry failed to explain in the speech to which we have just listened. I believe that there would have been a considerable measure of support for the amendment which appeared in his name. Since it appeared in his name, I thought he would have the courage at least to move it and test the House on its merits. Deputy Corry has repeatedly stated in this House that no man in the service of the State— Minister, civil servant or public servant of any kind—is worth more than a thousand pounds a year.

Or member of the Labour Party.

Is Deputy Corry aware —I am sure he is not—that the only amendment of all the amendments on the Order Paper that the Minister promised to consider was an amendment moved by Deputy Costello affecting a few specialised civil servants who have over a thousand pounds a year and who came over here some time during the past few years with the goodwill of the British Government for the purpose of anglicising the Irish Civil Service.

That statement should not be made in respect of any civil servant. Civil servants are defenceless against privilege statements made here.

I think that the Deputy should be made withdraw those statements categorically. Nobody knows better than the Deputy that what he says is untrue.

I withdraw. At any rate, the Minister cannot challenge my statement that the only amendment which he stated he would sympathetically consider was an amendment which everybody in the House knows affects only about half-a-dozen civil servants who have more than a thousand a year. Does the Minister deny that? If he does not, does Deputy Corry know it? Deputy Corry talks about protecting the under-dog, but he fails to stand up to move an amendment which I honestly think he believed to be right and fair. At the Fianna Fáil Party meeting I am sure Deputy Corry gave his support—his enthusiastic support—to the payment of £800 to two individuals for the doing of three months' work.

The Deputy is going very far from the amendment.

I am endeavouring to cover the ground that Deputy Corry was allowed to travel and to bring him back to realities. Why does he stand up in this House to say that he does not believe in giving any man more than a thousand a year and, at the same time, go to his own Party meeting and agree to give £800 to two individuals for doing what everybody believes to be not more than three months' work.

The Deputy says that I consented to that at a Party meeting. The statement is not true and I ask the Deputy to withdraw it.

I am making a statement that Deputy Corry has not protested in this House against the payment of £800 a year to two gentlemen for doing what is no more than three months' work.

That is not the statement I made and I must ask Deputy Davin to withdraw it.

I am not withdrawing what I stated. I say it is a correct statement. There was a discussion on the Hospitals Bill in the House during the week and Deputy Corry was silent, and I believe his silence gave consent to what everybody knows is contained in the Bill, namely, a proposal to give £1,000 to one man and £800 a year to two others for doing three months' work. When Deputy Corry speaks again I hope he will go, in greater detail, into the matters he raised a few months ago and that he will convince the House that in this State we have civil servants and public servants who are drawing £13,700,000 a year. The Minister for Finance was chairman of the Public Accounts Committee for a year, and he was a member of it for at least another year, and from the information he gained there he could easily have found out that by wiping out waste in many departments he would save more than he is going to save by cutting the salaries of people in the State service. There are other amendments which are being proposed to cut the salaries of individuals who have only £60 a year. I think instances of money wasted could have been found by the Minister if he had the time and the inclination to go carefully into the Estimates for the public services. He could have procured this £280,000 by cutting waste and not salaries. I hope that when Deputy Corry again appears in the part of defending the under dog he will have some regard to the realities of the situation we are discussing.

May I ask Deputy Davin a question? Did he not promise to vote in this House for all my amendments?

I told the Deputy privately, in the Lobby, that I was prepared to vote for his amendment.

For all of them.

Question put: "That the tabular statement in paragraph (a), Part IV, stand part of the Schedule."
The Dáil divided, Tá, 65; Níl, 42.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Breen, Daniel.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Browne, William Frazer.
  • Carty, Frank.
  • Concannon, Helena.
  • Corkery, Daniel.
  • Corry, Martin John.
  • Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
  • Crowley, Timothy.
  • Daly, Denis.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • Doherty, Hugh.
  • Donnelly, Eamon.
  • Dowdall, Thomas P.
  • Finlay, John.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Geoghegan, James.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Hales, Thomas.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Holohan, Richard.
  • Houlihan, Patrick.
  • Jordan, Stephen.
  • Keely, Séamus P.
  • Kehoe, Patrick.
  • Kelly, James Patrick.
  • Kelly, Thomas.
  • Kent, William Rice.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kissane, Eamonn.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • MacDermot, Frank.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maguire, Ben.
  • Maguire, Conor Alexander.
  • Moane, Edward.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • O'Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Kelly, Seán Thomas.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Pearse, Margaret Mary.
  • Rice, Edward.
  • Rogers, Patrick James.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick Joseph.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Victory, James.
  • Ward, Francis C. (Dr.).

Níl

  • Alton, Ernest Henry.
  • Anthony, Richard.
  • Belton, Patrick.
  • Bennett, George Cecil.
  • Broderick, William Joseph.
  • Brodrick, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Costello, John Aloysius.
  • Davin, William.
  • Morrisroe, James.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, James Edward.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Connor, Batt.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas Francis.
  • O'Leary, Daniel.
  • Davitt, Robert Emmet.
  • Desmond, William.
  • Dockrell, Henry Morgan.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Esmonde, Osmond Grattan.
  • Fitzgerald, Desmond.
  • Hogan, Patrick (Clare).
  • Keating, John.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • McDonogh, Martin.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGuire, James Ivan.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • O'Mahony, The.
  • O'Neill, Eamonn.
  • O'Sullivan, Gearóid.
  • O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Redmond, Bridget Mary.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Thrift, William Edward.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Little and Traynor; Níl: Deputies Corish and Davin.
Question declared carried.

I move amendment 63:—

In page 7, in paragraph (b) (i) of Part IV to insert after the words "in the case of" the words "scale payment sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses and."

I am moving this amendment for the purpose of endeavouring to secure exemption for a particularly lowly-paid class from the cuts proposed in this Bill. I understand that it is proposed, under Part IV of the Schedule, to cut the remuneration of scale payment sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses, and if that proposal is proceeded with it will, in my opinion, inflict very serious hardship on the people concerned. On 26th April of this year I asked the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs a question with a view to securing information as to the remuneration of sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses, and I am sure that the Minister could not have felt very proud of the scale of salary paid by his Department to these public servants. These figures are interesting, because while Deputy Corry purports to believe that he is standing for slashing the top-notchers, as he described it a few moments ago, and while other Deputies in the Fianna Fáil Party will say that this Bill does not mean cutting the underdog, I want to put it to those Deputies who want to salve their consciences in that way that the figures I am going to read for them now indicate clearly that this Bill is a slash on remuneration, great and small.

I must quote from the official reply given to me by the Minister. In that reply, the Minister informed me that there were, in the Post Office service, 1,308 sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses whose inclusive remuneration did not exceed £60 per year. He stated that an additional 216 had between £60 and £80 a year; that an additional 146 had between £80 and £100 a year; an additional 114 between £100 and £120 a year; an additional 59 between £130 and £150 a year, and, out of 2,041 scale payment sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses, only 1989 have more than £3 per week or, out of 2,041, 1,308 have less than £60 per year. What is the £60 per year for? Is it all remuneration for personal services? It is not, because for that £60 per year which these 1,300 people receive, they not merely have to carry on the post office and accept complete responsibility for the financial transactions in the office but they have, in addition, to supply the premises, to provide the lighting, the stationery except the official forms, and even the blotting paper and the ink. They, even, have to provide the twine in the office and all this plus their personal energy for the magnificent sum of £60 per year, and not exceeding £60 per year for 1,308 such people out of a total of 2,041. Even £60 per year, however, is an exaggeration of the real position. Many of these people have £20 per year and, for that £20 per year, they provide the premises, the light, the stationery, the twine, the ink and the blotting paper. While the Minister for Finance may think it desirable to cut the payments of these people, I am sure the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs has a very heavy heart over the whole matter, because he knows perfectly well that these people are shockingly underpaid, and that every day in the week there comes to the attention of the Minister, and to the attention of other Ministers, the same sad story of people getting into unfortunate circumstances, because of the scandalously low rates of wages they receive for performing important and responsible services on behalf of the community. It is sought in this Bill to cut these people's payments. I would like to know on what principle, or what justification there is for cutting their remuneration.

I suppose I will be told that this is only part-time service. Anybody who has any practical experience of the work of these people, as distinct from mere theoretical experience, gathered from a prepared brief, knows perfectly well that they are not part-time servants. Many of these people are sub-postmasters, and their salaries in many cases are so low that they cannot afford to employ any assistant. They are required to have the offices open at 9 o'clock in the morning and to balance their accounts after 7 o'clock in the evening. If people come in and out during these hours they must be there. If people do not come all the better, but they are in the same position as any other shop assistant. It is quite unfair to attempt to describe them as part-time officials when, in fact, they are full-time officials. If they were regarded as full-time officials their remuneration would not be cut, because the Bill exempts whole-time officers with £300 yearly. These people are put into the category of part-time officials apparently for the purpose of inflicting cuts in their payments. Members of the Fianna Fáil Party had better get this into their heads, that this is a case of cutting remuneration as low as 8/- per week. There can be no justification whatever for that.

I would like the Minister to tell the House the machinery that he will necessarily have to construct in order to inflict this cut, if he goes ahead with his intention. The remuneration is not all for personal service. He cannot cut the remuneration relating to the cost of twine, light and premises. If he does not do that, he must in each individual case of 2,041 persons go through the remuneration to find out the rent, rates, number of lights, and number of desks in the office in order to ascertain the amount of stationery required. When he has done that he must segregate each salary into two parts, allowing so much in respect of personal service, and so much in respect of non-personal service such as the provision of premises, light, stationery, etc. I do not know if the Minister made any estimate of the cost of doing that in the case of 2,041 persons. I challenge the Minister to deny this, that what he will save by cutting these people will not, in my opinion—and I have some experience of the work— amount to the cost of ascertaining how much of the salary was in respect of personal service and how much in respect of non-personal service. If the Minister consulted his advisers on the matter he would know perfectly well that, even after inflicting the cut, he will have spent more money getting the particulars than he will get by inflicting the cuts.

There is no justification whatever for cutting these people's remuneration and the Minister ought to know that. I hope the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs will tell the House what he knows about the under-payment of these people; tell the House the experience he has every day in the week, and every week in the year, and at all events save his soul and his conscience, by getting up and saying that he has no responsibility for the action of the Minister, as indicated in this Bill. If the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs does that he will, at least, save his own soul. As far as the Department of Posts and Telegraphs is concerned, it is realised that cutting people with these low salaries is not merely an unjustifiable procedure, but a fiendish procedure.

I do not think Deputy Norton read the Bill. I do not know whether the Deputy adverted to the fact that a new sub-section was introduced on the Committee Stage, which provided—

Where the Minister is satisfied that the amount of the salary of an office has been fixed on the basis that an undefined part thereof is of the nature of an allowance for expenses necessarily incurred in the performance of the duties of such office, the Minister shall determine for the purposes of this Act the proportion of such salary which is attributable to such allowance and thereupon the proportion so determined shall not be included in or form part of the salary of such office for the purposes of this Act.

I do not know whether the Deputy is aware of the fact that we have power to do that, and that consequently it is not proposed to cut the whole of the payment made to the persons whom he would cover in his amendment.

I know that perfectly well.

I am sure that the Deputy also knows that when the scale was first fixed a segregation was already made, so that it will not be necessary to go and visit small post offices in remote country towns to see how much is personal remuneration and how much is for other expenses. The Deputy knows that as well as I do, because he is familiar with post office conditions.

The Minister is hopelessly wrong.

When the scale was fixed that is the basis on which these were determined.

Ask the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.

It must have been, otherwise how would it be possible to say that an office would carry so many pounds, and that the person appointed must provide, as the Deputy says, premises, light, stationery, ink and even blotting paper? If it had not been made, how is it possible to fix an amount which would cover the expenses that might properly attach to an office in a particular town and, at the same time, provide a fair remuneration for the person who is running the office?

Does the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs agree with the Minister? I am satisfied if he does.

At any rate that is how it will be done. It will not be necessary to have this personal tour of inspection, which Deputy Norton has suggested would be essential, if the terms of the Bill are going to be fulfilled. There must be on record in the post office a statement showing the annual income derived from every sub-post office, and it is quite clear, even if it did not exist, that it would be easy to determine what amount of such income might properly be allocated for expenses. In putting the amendment before the House Deputy Norton has been careful to mislead it, as always. He talked about persons who get £20 but he has been silent about persons who get over £180, big and prosperous shopkeepers in a country town who will be able to say that a large part of the remuneration which they draw is paid by way of rent for premises, and in recoupment of the other expenses which they must necessarily incur in holding the post office. In some cases they would probably be persons paying a substantial amount of income tax. In some cases they would probably be persons enjoying an income equal to the salary enjoyed by a higher grade Post Office official, or a higher grade civil servant. When the remuneration of such a person comes to be considered, as I said, we will probably find that the greater part of the £150 will be allocated— and properly allocated—to office rent, light, and all the other expenditure which he must necessarily incur in the proper discharge of the duties of his office.

Therefore the amount of the reduction which he will suffer will probably be much less than one per cent., and if it is much less than one per cent. in his case it will certainly be very much less even than that in the case of a person with the remuneration of £20, referred to by Deputy Norton. In fact, I might go so far as to say that it will probably be found that a person with a remuneration of £18 to £20 a year will not be cut at all under this Bill. It is not the intention to cut them. because quite properly it is realised that in cases like this the Post Office barely pays the cost of running it, from the point of view of the person who holds it. We all know that the person who holds the office does not hold it, and does not wish to hold it, merely for the income that accrues to him out of it. We all know he holds it because it is an additional attraction to his premises; it brings into them customers that might go elsewhere. That is the reason why the competition for those offices is so keen. The Deputy is well aware of the fact that it is keen, and it is keen not because of the small remuneration which is paid to the office holder, but because it makes the premises in which the office is situated much more attractive to the ordinary customer. It is not, therefore, a question of dealing with the wage earner. The fact that the business of a sub-post office is carried on in certain premises is in the nature of an advertisement for those premises; therefore, the policy of the Government might be put in this way, that instead of cutting remuneration, as Deputy Norton would like the House to understand we propose to do under this Bill, we merely propose to increase our advertising rates, and to compel the shopkeeper who holds those premises to contribute something to the Exchequer at the present time.

A Chinn Comhairle, I should dearly love to have an opportunity of making another speech.

The Deputy cannot do so on the Report Stage.

I must forego that delight. The Minister for Finance has made a statement which is tantamount to saying that I was telling an untruth to this House when I said that the information as to the cost of premises, light, stationery, etc., was not available. I made that statement. The Minister for Finance told this House that that was not so; that the information was available. Would you permit me, therefore, in the interests of veracity, to refer again to this question which I asked the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. I asked the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs on the 26th April, what the remuneration of sub-postmasters was, and how many exceed £60, £80, £100, £130 and £150. I also asked if he could state approximately what percentage of the salary is in respect of (a) personal services and (b) premises, lighting, stationery, etc., supplied by such officer. The Minister supplied me with the information about the remuneration, and added this: "The information asked for in the second part of the question is not available and would be difficult to ascertain." My statement is, therefore, perfectly proved, and the Minister has completely misled the House. In his endeavour to prove me incorrect he made a perfect fool of himself by stating that this information was available when the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, who is in charge of the Department, knows that it is not available.

Amendment put.
The Dáil divided:—Tá, 41; Níl, 66.

  • Alton, Ernest Henry.
  • Anthony, Richard.
  • Belton, Patrick.
  • Bennett, George Cecil.
  • Broderick, William Joseph.
  • Brodrick, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Costello, John Aloysius.
  • Davin, William.
  • Davitt, Robert Emmet.
  • Desmond, William.
  • Dockrell, Henry Morgan.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Esmonde, Osmond Grattan.
  • Fitzgerald, Desmond.
  • O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
  • Pattison, James F.
  • Redmond, Bridget Mary.
  • Hogan, Patrick (Clare).
  • Keating, John.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • McDonogh, Martin.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGuire, James Ivan.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Morrisroe, James.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, James Edward.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Connor, Batt.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas Francis.
  • O'Leary, Daniel.
  • O'Mahony, The.
  • O'Neill, Eamonn.
  • O'Sullivan, Gearóid.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Thrift, William Edward.

Níl

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Breen, Daniel.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Browne, William Frazer.
  • Carty, Frank.
  • Concannon, Helena.
  • Corkery, Daniel.
  • Corry, Martin John.
  • Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
  • Crowley, Timothy.
  • Curran, Richard.
  • Daly, Denis.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • Doherty, Hugh.
  • Donnelly, Eamon.
  • Dowdall, Thomas P.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finlay, John.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Geoghegan, James.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Hales, Thomas.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Holohan, Richard.
  • Houlihan, Patrick.
  • Jordan, Stephen.
  • Keely, Séamus P.
  • Kehoe, Patrick.
  • Kelly, James Patrick.
  • Kelly, Thomas.
  • Kent, William Rice.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kissane, Eamonn.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • MacDermot, Frank.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maguire, Conor Alexander.
  • Moane, Edward.
  • Moore, Seámus.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • O'Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Kelly, Seán Thomas.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Pearse, Margaret Mary.
  • Rice, Edward.
  • Rogers, Patrick James.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick Joseph.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Victory, James.
  • Ward, Francis C. (Dr.).
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Corish and Davin; Níl: Deputies Little and Traynor.
Amendment declared lost.
Question put: "That the Bill, as amended, be received for Final Consideration."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 64; Níl, 40.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breen, Daniel.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Browne, William Frazer.
  • Concannon, Helena.
  • Corkery, Daniel.
  • Corry, Martin John.
  • Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
  • Crowley, Timothy.
  • Curran, Richard.
  • Daly, Denis.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • Doherty, Hugh.
  • Donnelly, Eamon.
  • Dowdall, Thomas P.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finlay, John.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • O'Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Kelly, Seán Thomas.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Pearse, Margaret Mary.
  • Rice, Edward.
  • Rogers, Patrick James.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Geoghegan, James.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Hales, Thomas.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Holohan, Richard.
  • Jordan, Stephen.
  • Keely, Séamus P.
  • Kehoe, Patrick.
  • Kelly, James Patrick.
  • Kelly, Thomas.
  • Kent, William Rice.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kissane, Eamonn.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • MacDermot, Frank.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • McGovern, Patrick.
  • Maguire, Conor Alexander.
  • Moane, Edward.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick Joseph.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Victory, James.
  • Ward, Francis C. (Dr.)

Níl

  • Alton, Ernest Henry.
  • Belton, Patrick.
  • Bennett, George Cecil.
  • Broderick, William Joseph.
  • Brodrick, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Costello, John Aloysius.
  • Davin, William.
  • Davitt, Robert Emmet.
  • Desmond, William.
  • Dockrell, Henry, Morgan.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Esmonde, Osmond Grattan.
  • Fitzgerald, Desmond.
  • Hogan, Patrick (Clare).
  • Keating John.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • McDonogh, Martin.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGuire, James Ivan.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Morrisroe, James.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, James Edward.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Connor, Batt.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas Francis.
  • O'Leary, Daniel.
  • O'Mahony, The.
  • O'Neill, Eamonn.
  • O'Sullivan, Gearóid.
  • O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Redmond, Bridget Mary.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Thrift, William Edward.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Little and Traynor; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Corish.
Question declared carried.

When will the Fifth Stage he taken?

To-morrow.

The Bill, as amended, is not yet printed and we would not have time to consider it before to-morrow. The Bill has been amended on Report. There have been amendments passed in the Minister's name, if my recollection is correct.

We would like to have the Bill, as amended, in our possession, so that we could give it some consideration before the Fifth Stage is taken.

Is the Deputy objecting to the taking of the Fifth Stage to-morrow?

Very well, then, let us say next Wednesday.

Fifth Stage fixed for Wednesday, 14th June.

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