Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 9 Jun 1933

Vol. 48 No. 3

In Committee on Finance. - Vote 52—Agriculture (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £276,950 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1934, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Talmhaíoctha agus seirbhísí áirithe atá fé riara na hOifige sin, maraon le hIldeontaisí i gCabhair.

That a sum not exceeding £237,950 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1934, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Agriculture and of certain services administered by that Office, including sundry Grants-in-Aid.—(Minister for Justice.)

Mr. Brodrick

One would imagine, from the speeches we have heard from the Government Benches, that the Free State is in a thriving condition. I will ask Fianna Fáil Deputies to take their cue from one of their colleagues who spoke last night, Deputy J. Flynn, of Kerry. I am sure they are perfectly well aware that the same conditions exist all along the Western seaboard as prevail in the County Kerry. Deputy Keely told us last night that for the last ten years we have given away 25 per cent. of the revenue of this country. He said that the present fight will have to be continued. I, for one, believe that this is not the time for fighting. The Deputy told us that for years past we have been throwing away £5,000,000 per annum, but he omitted to tell us that in one year the Fianna Fáil Government have thrown away £30,000,000. I invite Deputy Keely to go back to County Galway and put the true position before the farmers there.

The Galway farmers sold lambs yesterday in the Dublin market and the highest price paid for fat lambs was 18/-. They went as low as 12/-. What price will be paid for store lambs during the next month? In Galway we carry on the sheep-rearing industry. As a result of the economic war that industry has been seriously affected. A few days ago Deputy Corry told us that the Fianna Fáil Party have put the dairying industry on its legs. He said the farmers were getting 4d. a gallon for milk. They are, but we are paying for it. We are paying so that John Bull will get our butter at 7d. a lb. less than the small farmer in the West of Ireland can get it. There are about one and a half million sheep produced annually in Ireland. We are getting a bounty of 3/- for each lamb and there is a duty of 12/- on each lamb entering England. From that fact alone it will be evident that the farmers are placed in a very unhappy position.

What is the Minister going to do with regard to wool? We have heard a lot about the woollen factories that are in a thriving condition. They are, no doubt, but it is at the farmer's expense they are so prosperous. There is not a twopence-halfpenny woollen factory in the country that is not protected and it is protected at the expense of the farmer who produces the wool. The producers in Galway, Roscommon and Mayo get 4d. a lb. for their wool. How can the Galway, Mayo or Roscommon farmer live under such conditions? We are paying for the bounty that Deputy Corry and others are getting, and surely we are entitled to something also? The producers in Galway are entitled to some help in respect of the wool they are distributing in order to keep those factories going.

Deputy T. Kelly told us last night about the lady commercial traveller who travelled down the country. He said she was in very close touch with the small farmers. I am sure of this, that she did not know very much about agriculture, perhaps as much as the Deputy, and I am blowed if I can make out what that lady commercial traveller had to do with the small farmers. The Deputy also told us about a lady traveller who is dealing in hats.

Mr. T. Kelly

It was a man in that case.

Mr. Brodrick

The only hats that that man could sell in the country— in the West in any case—are the 2d. sunshades. The position, particularly in the West, is very serious. I am aware of farmers who were not able to purchase manure for their crops this season. If the Minister asks his Inspectors on the Western seaboard they will, I am sure, confirm that statement. I am aware that many farmers were unable to pay for seeds or manures. In numbers of cases small farmers had to sell their cattle at £4 and £5 10s. 0d., when ordinarily these cattle would not be sold until October. The farmers had to get rid of the stock at that terribly low price in order to enable them to get seeds and manures. That is the position that exists, and I appeal to the Minister to make some effort to help those unfortunate people. He should certainly extend some help in the case of the woollen industry. The Minister must know that the price paid for Galway wool—4½d. per lb.—and 4¾d. per lb. for best Galway wool is not fair to the farmer—the producer— seeing the protection that the mills throughout the country are getting from the Government.

I would like to deal briefly with some of the sub-heads. Under sub-head F 2, I notice that the sum of £632 is provided for Clifden Rural Domestic School, County Galway. About three weeks ago I read a report of a meeting of the Galway County Committee of Agriculture and Technical Instruction at which the Reverend Chairman said that it was a disgrace that the Department would not take some notice of that particular school. There were thirteen or fifteen pupils put up for examination, and of these the examiner said that they were more proficient in the Irish language than they were in the English language. Fancy, in that school there is not a word of Irish being taught. These girls who are all Irish speakers go into that English speaking school where they spend a year or two years. From it they go to another school. At the present time they must be fluent Irish speakers to get a position in this country, but here is a school supported by the Minister for Agriculture in which not a word of Irish is being taught. I would ask the Minister to take notice of that.

I could hardly believe that such a position could exist were it not for the statement made by the Reverend Chairman who presided at the meeting. He said that in the case of the present Government there was too much lip service. Under sub-head G. 2 the grants for cow testing associations in 1932-33 were £10,800. For 1933-34 the sum is £9,000. That is a reduction of £1,800. But when we come to the allowances to supervisors, the grant for 1932-33 was £5,125 and for the current year it is £5,700. Therefore, the position is that while the grant for the cow testing association has been reduced by £1,800, the allowances to supervisors have been increased by £575. I think that needs some explanation.

I also find that the sum of £300 is being provided this year for courses of instruction for supervisors. There was no such provision last year. Why is such provision made while the grants are being cut down? That, surely, needs some explanation from the Minister. Under sub-head (1), I find that in 1932-33 the sum of £120 was allowed for additional technical staff in the Gaeltacht. There is no provision in the Estimate this year under that heading. When Fianna Fáil were on these benches they criticised the Government of the time because, as they said, they were not doing sufficient for the Gaeltacht. I ask Deputies who represent the Gaeltacht areas to consider that no provision is being made in the Vote this year for technical training in the Gaeltacht. We have been told time and again by the Fianna Fáil Party that it was the duty of the Government to see that the Gaeltacht got its due, but now we see with a Fianna Fáil Government in power that no provision is made this year for technical training there. I think that is most unfair. Only very small provision was made last year—a sum of £120—but there is no provision at all this year. Instead of that being the case, I think that last year's sum should have been greatly increased.

Sub-head (m) 4 deals with loans for agricultural purposes. The provision here has been reduced from £29,300 last year to £27,000 this year. I ask Deputies to consider that the reductions here concern such things as hand-sprayers and agricultural implements. We see every day throughout the country notices such as this issued by the Department of Agriculture: "Spray your potatoes early and spray them a few times." In spite of that we find the Vote reduced so that farmers will have a poor chance this year of being able to purchase hand-sprayers. The same remark applies to agricultural implements. That is the position, although the Minister for Agriculture is appealing every other day to the farmers of the country to increase the area under tillage.

I would like to know what is in the Minister's head, or is he responsible for this Estimate? In the case of the demonstration plots the Vote is also reduced. Deputies are aware that in the congested areas these demonstration plots have been a great advantage. The small farmers in particular got valuable information from them as regards seeds and manures. I would appeal to the Minister and also to Deputies who represent the congested areas and the Gaeltacht areas to consider this Estimate seriously and to insist that some better provision should be made for them. It is most unfair, I think, that the Estimate should be reduced so far as they are concerned.

Mr. McGovern

I do not propose to follow the lines adopted by other Deputies on this debate. I have begun to realise that the position of the Minister for Agriculture is not a very enviable one, because as the result of his policy the agricultural industry is going to the dogs. I would be inclined to sympathise with him if only his colleagues would allow me. It is hard sometimes not to have a feeling of sympathy for the Minister, particularly when his colleagues get up and tell the House that their policy is making for such prosperity in the country. I congratulate Deputy Flynn, of Kerry, on the new note that he struck in this debate. He had the courage and the honesty to stand up and speak for his constituents, and to rise out of the narrow rut of party politics in the interests of his country and his constituents. The Fianna Fáil Party have been appealing to all of us to stand behind President de Valera. I think Deputy Flynn has done quite a lot to help in that direction, because there is much in common in the view he expressed and in the views held by me and other members of the House.

What Deputy Flynn said with regard to cattle in the County Kerry applies to the County Cavan. The flat rate in operation is knocking out the cattle industry altogether. It is hitting the poor class of farmers in the areas I have mentioned far more than it is hitting the more prosperous farmers in other parts of the country. I hope the Minister will consider that point of view, and see that something is done to ameliorate the position of these poor farmers in the mountainy parts of the country, not only in regard to their cattle but also in the case of their sheep and lambs. Deputy Corry, when speaking, dealt a very heavy blow at the Minister for Agriculture for he completely knocked the bottom out of his case before the Minister, so to speak, had put a bottom into it. I do not pretend to recollect very clearly all that Deputy Corry said, and I am open to correction if I misquote him.

I understood that he said he was just after returning from Aberdeen and I was very anxious on behalf of the Centre Party to extend to him a hearty céad míle fáilte back to Dáil Eireann, but I was not so anxious when I heard the news he brought us. He told us about the price of oats over there. If we are now to get away from cattle raising and other agricultural industries we have had, and go in for grain growing, he held out a very poor prospect, if the only market he can find is Aberdeen. He told us that they were selling oats over there at 4/6 or 3/6 per cwt. When we deduct 40 per cent. from that price on account of the tariff, and also deduct the middleman's profits and freights, I think the price we would get would be about 1/6 per cwt. That offers a very poor prospect for extensive grain growing.

Mr. Corry

On a point of explanation, the statement I read was taken from the Scottish Letter in the "Farmers Gazette" of 27th May last. It was a reply to the complaint made by Deputy Hogan that the price of oats here was only 9/- per barrel. I pointed out that the price, according to the Scottish Letter in the "Farmers Gazette" in Aberdeen was only 4/8 per cwt. which would work out at something like 7d per stone or 8/2 per barrel. I did not say I had been in Aberdeen but if I do go there I think I will take Deputy McGovern with me.

Mr. McGovern

At any rate, Deputy Corry could not tell us that we are going to have a great market for our surplus oats if we go in for extensive grain growing. In any case it matters very little what the price of oats is. When we look at things in the proper light, we come to realise that oats after all is the raw material for agricultural products in this country, that a certain amount at all events of the oats that we grow must be used for feeding purposes, so long as we have not a market in Aberdeen—for producing eggs, poultry, and cattle. That is really the purpose for which it can be used. Therefore, these products must be sold at a price which will pay for growing oats. You cannot get men to till land and grow oats unless they find that it pays them and if it does not pay them to feed it to cattle, pigs or poultry, what is to be done with the extra corn that is grown?

Fianna Fáil must have been pretty hard put to it when they had to rely upon Deputy Kelly to support the Minister's policy because he said he had not a 31st cousin a farmer. He admitted that he knows nothing about farmers except what he learned from a lady who met a gentleman who was talking to farmers' wives down the country. That lady brought him good news, that this gentleman had made a great discovery—that the hats had not been taken off the heads of farmers' wives and daughters yet. If it is the policy to take the hats off farmers' wives and daughters I hope that policy will never succeed. I was glad to hear him state that one of the places visited by this gentleman was County Cavan and that the farmers' wives and daughters there do not mean to surrender their right to wear hats. I hope we shall see Deputy Kelly, Deputy Corry and all the Ministers coming in here in their "bawneens" before these ladies surrender their right to wear hats.

A Deputy

Top hats!

Mr. McGovern

Ladies' hats. Deputy Kelly said that he had made a discovery, that farmers' wives and daughters were wearing hats.

Mr. McMenamin

It is a shame for them!

Mr. McGovern

I desire to say a word about the policy of the Department of Agriculture, with regard to instructors and the means by which they are earning their salaries. This Vote is concerned with the payment of these salaries. I must say that I have been living 25 years where I reside at present and that only once have I seen or heard of an agricultural instructor coming into that area. Nobody seems to miss him; nobody bothers whether he is there or not, and the reason is that they have no faith in him, not but that the agricultural instructor can do his work all right, but the method by which the business is being run makes the farmer despair altogether of the position. Instead of consulting the agricultural instructor about any matter in which they are concerned, they simply read the local paper, "The Anglo-Celt," and if there is any point upon which they want information, which does not appear there, they write to the paper in regard to it, and it is explained to them in the next issue. The same practice applies in the neighbouring counties. They never think of consulting the agricultural instructor.

The House may be interested to know why they do not. When they look up the accounts of the Department of Agriculture, they find that instead of these agricultural instructors teaching the people how to make money out of their land, they are teaching them how to lose money. Take for instance that portion of the Vote expended upon farms run by the Department. We find that the estimated receipts from these farms fall some thousands short of the expenditure incurred, and that money has to be voted by the House to make good that loss. Is it any wonder that farmers have such little confidence in these instructors if that is all they can do? We find that the estimated receipts from students' fees, sale of live stock, farm produce, rent, etc., for Athenry is £3,600, and that the expenditure is £6,543 for the present year. That is very nearly double the estimated receipts. Then, in the case of Ballyhaise, we find that the estimated receipts are £2,800, and the estimated expenditure for this year is £6,553. The same remarks apply to Chantilly, Clonakilty and all the others. Why do the Department not take over some of the derelict farms that we see throughout the country, run them as average ordinary farms, keep their accounts, show how farmers can make money out of their land, and in this way put their theories to the test as practical men?

Then the farmers, if they heard of a man being able to make a profit out of his land, could examine these accounts and see how the thing was being done. Certainly, they do not want to learn how to lose money, because they have no money to lose. They can find many ways of doing that without going to these agricultural instructors. There are some things these agricultural instructors might do. They might teach these mountainy farmers how they can produce lambs at 4/- each. They might show them how they can produce pork at 28/- per cwt., what it was when the farmers had the bulk of their pork for sale. They might show the women how to produce eggs at 3d. and 4d. a dozen. They might show them how to sell their produce at 40 per cent. less than their neighbours in Northern Ireland and, at the same time, pay more for their hats and shoes and everything else, and still be prosperous. These are some practical questions which are worthy of consideration, and which I ask the Minister to deal with when replying.

Mr. Keyes

There is one matter I should like to raise on this Estimate and that is, to ask the Minister to give us some information as to the reasons which prevented his giving continued effect to his promise made to a deputation on 2nd May, 1932, with regard to the putting up of butter in Irish-made beech keels. On that occasion a deputation representing the workers and employers interested in this industry got an assurance that orders for at least 150,000 cwt. beech keels for the cold storage of butter for the home market would be given to the Irish merchants and their men, and that was going to be a guarantee for the preservation of the cooperage trade, which shows signs of disappearing from this country. The benefits which would accrue from that are perfectly obvious. The suitability of this class of keel cannot be questioned. It has been stated to be most suitable for the presentation of Irish butter on any market. The Danes have recognised the suitability of beech as against the resinous woods of their country. The result is that they import beech from Sweden in which to send out their butter. We grow beech here, and our saw-millers have the necessary plant to have it felled, sawn and seasoned. There is at present just a remnant of the coopers left to hand on their craft to the younger generation, if we step in in time.

I consider that, owing to the protection which the Government has given to the butter industry, this particular matter ought not to be neglected. It is rather difficult to understand what is the influence that is standing between the Minister and the carrying out of what I believe is his desire. I have heard reasons alleged, but I cannot substantiate them. I fear that there are too many people interested in the importation of these handy resinous boxes. We are told that the cwt. keel is too large for purveyors of butter. Yet I can see in Limerick and other places Danish butter made up in cwts. and nobody seems to object. Peculiarly enough, the only people who gave the Minister a chance to give effect to his promise last year were German importers of Irish butter. They seemed to think that these keels were quite all right. It certainly seems very peculiar, and almost beyond comprehension, that the Government are unable to force their will on the people, whether creamery managers or others, who are standing in the way of effect being given to this most desirable object. This particular wood is indigenous to our soil and the felling, haulage, manufacture, and seasoning of it would give a large amount of employment. The Minister knows perhaps much better than I do that when butter is taken from beech wood boxes it is in good condition, but when it is taken out of resinous boxes a considerable amount of the outside of the butter has to be stripped to do away with the taste of the wood. Having regard to these facts, I should like the Minister to state his intentions in the matter. I hope he will see that the matter is attended to at once, so as to enable the merchants to put in a stock of this beech for seasoning. They can do that if they get an assurance that the demand will not be fluctuating and if they get a guarantee for a certain number of keels. It will mean that in Limerick 14 coopers will be given continuous work all the year round and that six apprentices can be taken on to learn the trade, whereas at present there are only two coopers working in Limerick owing to the uncertainty prevailing. We look to the Minister to help in this matter and we believe that he will be doing the best thing possible for the butter trade, as well as for the preservation of the cooperage trade.

Mr. Smith

It is an extraordinary thing to my mind that we can have a constructive discussion on the Estimates for every Department except the Department of Agriculture. When we come to deal with that all-important subject we hear all kinds of nonsense spoken from the Opposition Benches.

Mr. Belton

Now for wisdom.

Mr. Smith

Instead of offering something constructive to the Minister for Agriculture and the Executive Council, whether on the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture, or on the motion moved by the Centre Party, or by Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney, we have the usual whine about the condition of the farmers, how they suffer and how they stand, and how they are being treated as a result of the policy operated by the Government. I suggest to members of the Opposition interested in the farming community that it would be much better for them to apply their minds and whatever ability they may have to facing the situation as it is. When we were in Opposition and put forward our point of view, the then Minister for Agriculture time and again told us in his flippant way that the Government had the sanction of the people; that they had been sent here on many occasions by a majority of the people. "We put our policy before the electorate," he said, "and they sent us back here to implement that policy." He used to twit us and ask: "What are you crying about. Why do you not go out to the farmers and try to convince them that the policy that I am operating is wrong? Why not try and get a mandate from the farmers to reverse that policy?" That was the sort of argument and the line of reasoning adopted by the predecessor of the present Minister. I do suggest to the members of the Centre Party, and to the members of the entire Opposition that that would be a more practical and a more honest method of approach, as well as a more honest method of criticism than that which has been adopted since we became the Government in the Twenty-Six Counties. I have listened to the speech made by Deputy McGovern just now, and to the other speeches made by him in this House on other occasions. It was only to-day he referred to a speech made by a member of this Party, Deputy J. Flynn—a speech which I did not hear. He referred to that speech and congratulated Deputy J. Flynn on having done more than any other member of the Fianna Fáil Party to cut this narrow rut of party politics. I do suggest to Deputy McGovern that he is the last person who should refer to the rut of party politics, because as long as I remember him and those associated with him they have, more than any other body in the country in party politics, always pitted themselves against the will of the majority of the people.

The Deputy knows more about party politics than does any member in the Fianna Fáil Party. To claim, or to allege, that he speaks here for the farmers of Cavan is to state a falsehood. I put it to him now, as one of the representatives of Cavan, to say what the small farmers in Cavan, the small farmers in Curragh or Glen or Dubarrow have gained from the policy which had been operated by our predecessors for ten years and——

Mr. Belton

And what they have gained since the election of 1932?

Mr. Smith

I put it to Deputy McGovern to say if he got 5 per cent. of the votes of these farmers. I put it to him to convince these farmers that we are wrong.

Mr. Belton

Your policy will convince them.

Mr. Smith

I put it to him to convince them that they gained anything from the English market. The Deputy made a statement that the farmers in Northern Ireland were a lot better off than in the Free State and that prices in Northern Ireland were much better. As a man who lives convenient to that Border, I ask him what would the Nationalist farmers of the Six Counties say to-morrow if they were asked or given an opportunity to come in here? I challenge him on that, in spite of the statement made by him that the farmers in Northern Ireland are getting more for their produce than we are. I say if these farmers were given that opportunity they would say with a 100 per cent. vote that they would come in here and put up with whatever impediments—which I assert do not exist— that they say are here.

Mr. McGovern

We want them in. Why do they not come in?

Mr. Smith

They could not come in while there are criers like you here. The Deputy said that Deputy Kelly had referred to the fact that he had not a thirty-first cousin engaged in or interested in agriculture as far as he could remember. Well, I say that Deputy McGovern and the rest of the members of the Centre Party should be very slow to refer to the action of any member of this Party or to their connection with agriculture, when they look down towards their own Front Bench and see there the type of agriculturists who are leading and directing the destinies of the Centre Party. It is the first time in my life that I knew of an agricultural party or an alleged farmers' party in this country being controlled from a flat in Paris. I am a farmer. I am a farmer's son, and I do claim that I know the farmers of my county and every county surrounding it as well as any other Deputy.

Mr. Rogers

The Deputy is not very much interested in them, apparently.

Mr. Corry

More than Deputy Rogers is.

Mr. Smith

I know how they live. I know how hard it is for the small farmer to exist and to bring up his family because I have been through it myself but I do resent any attempt by any man in this House, no matter for what class he speaks, to say that the farmers of this country are not Nationalists. I say that the farmers and the farmers' sons in this country, and especially the small farmers, were the people who made the fight in the past.

Mr. Brennan

Agreed.

Mr. Smith

I do say that any man is wrong who attempts to give the impression that the farmers are a lot of whiners and that the farmers are a class who will not stand up to the fight and that the farmers do not want this fight. Every time I hear a man making the assertion that the farmers are whiners I will stand up and contradict him.

Mr. Brennan

We would be all with the Deputy in that.

Mr. Smith

Every argument the Opposition could produce and every misrepresentation that they could think of they availed of to get the farmers to go back of the fight, to go back on what was always traditional so far as the small farmers are concerned. The Opposition tried that. They are entitled to play the ordinary game of party politics but surely we are entitled to say since we came in here——

Mr. Belton

Since you came in here.

Mr. Smith

I do not make the statement that because we have the majority voice of the people we cannot make mistakes. But surely we are entitled to operate the policy which we set before the people, the policy which we explained to them. The Opposition made sure that that policy would be made known to every elector in the country. We are not asking the Opposition to agree with us. We are not asking them to troop into the Lobby and support what we introduce. The Opposition are the people who preached about the majority will of the people for ten years. Everyone of them wanted that.

Mr. McGovern

On a point of order, what did President de Valera say when——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not a point of order.

Mr. Smith

I appeal to the Chair to protect me from the interruptions of Deputy McGovern. I repeat that for ten years he and those with him went round the country preaching about majority rule and the will of the people and they did many things to enforce the will of the people, a will that had not been half as clearly expressed as it has been on many recent occasions. The Opposition went very far in that direction. I am not going to deny the Opposition their right to criticise our policy or to criticise the action of any Minister. They are at perfect liberty to do that but when they come in here and discuss matters like those now before the House, they ought to come in and face up to the fact that we, at the moment, have the responsibility for putting into effect the policy that we guaranteed to the majority of the electorate we would put into operation if we were elected. If the Opposition do not succeed in getting their recommendations accepted by us, then they have their Saturdays and Sundays to go down to their constituencies and convince the farmers there and the rest of the electorate that we are on the wrong road.

Mr. Corry

What a hope they would have!

Mr. Smith

I think that would be a sensible recommendation to the people on the opposite benches. I would also like to remind the Opposition that, while agriculture is a very important matter and a very important industry here, still they should not forget that there are other classes in the community. I am a farmer and there are many other farmer Deputies on these benches who take the same point of view as myself. If I am a farmer I am not going to fall into the same type of mind as Deputy McGovern who suggested that it was because the Minister for Agriculture was from a grain-growing county, this policy of an admixture in feeding stuffs was resorted to by him.

I do not say that we, in Cavan, are going to derive very much benefit as a result of that admixture but I am prepared to co-operate with the farmers in other constituencies and other counties. I do prefer as a farmer to assist the farmers in the midlands and the grain-growing counties to assisting the farmers in the Argentine. I think that we, farmers, should be more broad-minded than we are in these respects. We should remember that this community is composed of every class and we should do what is fair and just to implement the policy that is best for every class. I believe as sincerely and honestly as any man could believe that the Executive Council and the Minister for Agriculture are making a genuine effort in that direction. I am completely confident that the policy they are operating will ultimately be proven to be the wise policy. I am confident that the wisdom of those who have gone out and worked very hard to secure the position we have brought about will ultimately be proven. Members of the Centre Party will never get anywhere. In the words of Deputy McGovern, that it is the most unpopular Party in this House. How he discovered in a couple of months that he was the most unpopular member of it, I do no quite understand.

Mr. McGovern

In certain spheres.

Mr. Smith

The Deputy would never have got here but that I took sympathy upon him and advised my voters to give him their third preferences. He would never have occupied a seat in this House but that I wanted to teach his predecessor a lesson, as I will teach him—

Mr. Kent

On a point of order—

Mr. Smith

I wanted to teach his predecessor a lesson—

Mr. Kent

Are we to listen to a personal conflict between two members from County Cavan or are we to discuss the Estimate before the House.

Mr. O'Leary

They can meet at the cross-roads.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I agree that Deputy Smith is wandering from the subject before the House. The general election in Cavan and the preference votes that Deputy McGovern got from Deputy Smith do not arise on this Estimate.

Mr. Smith

I bow to your ruling.

Mr. O'Grady

Might I ask if it is in order for any Deputy to interfere between the two members for Cavan.

Mr. Smith

I have not departed very much from the rules of order. I shall tell the House how it is with me. I was proceeding to say that I took sympathy on the poor, old man, and I saw very effectively that he would get a seat in this assembly.

Mr. Belton

Extend your sympathy to the Minister.

Mr. Smith

You are the last man should talk about agriculture, anyhow. You offered yourself repeatedly to the farmers of Dublin and they repudiated you. You had to go into an urban constituency before you could get into this House, and it was a very close shot with you there.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle rose.

Mr. Belton

I brought you people in here——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Belton ought to know that when the Chair rises he should remain silent. Otherwise, there could be no order.

Mr. Belton

I had not seen you rise.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The general election does not arise on this Estimate, nor does the question as to what Party Deputy Belton offered himself arise. Deputies must discuss the Estimate and nothing else.

Mr. Belton

On a point of order, why should I be discussed on this Estimate? I resent the remark that was made. I was elected not by a Party but by the electors, and I brought these fellows who were wandering about for five years in here. I taught them the little bit they know about agriculture.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle rose.

Mr. Belton

I resent my name being brought into the discussion.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Belton has been told already that when the Chair rises, he must resume his seat. He has again disobeyed the Chair. I warn him that, if he disobeys the Chair again, serious notice will be taken of his action. I have already indicated to Deputy Smith that he must not discuss what Deputy Belton did.

Mr. McGovern

On a point of order, I want to ask if you will prevent these dog-fighting tactics and personal attacks upon people. We are prepared to defend ourselves, but we are not going to defend ourselves by such tactics as these.

Mr. Smith

Deputy McGovern should bring an interpreter with him. I am sorry if I have transgressed the rules of order, but I think the House will remember that I have recently been challenged—actually challenged—on a few occasions to make a speech. As I said before, I am not terribly fond of talking at all but, mind you, I can hit out bravely when I take the notion.

Mr. Belton

Deal with the Estimate.

Mr. Smith

I am dealing with the policy of this Government, and I am trying to dun into your heads what the position is.

Mr. Belton

We know it.

Mr. Smith

Let me say this in conclusion, to Deputy McGovern and every other member of that Opposition Party—they are making attempts to influence a majority of the people, and they are making some sinister moves. We had Deputy MacDermot here yesterday expressing hopes for a settlement of the economic war. He suggested, also, that a settlement was in the offing. Deputy MacDermot had not the faintest reason or the slightest grounds for making that statement except that he wanted to get the people of this country again thinking in those terms—that he wanted to raise them up, if he could, and then let them flop down following the policy of the "Irish Daily Independent" in trying to break the morale of the people of this country. Do not worry about the position over here——

Mr. Curran

The same to you.

Mr. Smith

I suggest that some of you are not losing any sleep over the condition of the farmers. I suggest to Deputy McGovern, when he proceeds to prove that the County Cavan farmer lost £26 10/- per annum as a result of the economic war, that if he went to the Department of Local Government to prove a case in favour of an applicant for an old age pension he would endeavour to establish that that farmer's entire income did not, in fact, exceed £26 10/-. That is the sort of nonsense and the sort of tomfoolery that is trotted out here by members of the Centre Party and, particularly, by Deputy McGovern. Of course, I am a young man, and most members of this Party are young. Deputy McGovern is old, and you could not expect him to be doing or saying anything but foolish things.

Mr. Brennan

The pathetic and humiliating silence of the Minister for Agriculture in introducing this Vote is, I take it, symbolic of his silence as head of the Department which is supposed to be the watchdog of agriculture when the Executive Council set out to force an economic war upon this country—an economic war which has practically resulted in wiping out agriculture.

Dr. Ryan

I do not think that that statement should be allowed to be made. It has been said on several occasions by the Opposition that the Executive Council forced the economic war. I think it is a shame that a statement like that should be made.

Mr. Brennan

Why not? If the Minister for Agriculture had waited a few minutes I think I would be able to prove to him, out of the mouths of his leaders, that the economic war was not an accident at all, that the fact that we cannot sell our cattle and sheep is not at all an accident. The economic war was deliberately entered upon. At least the President of the Executive Council said clearly that this country was too long dependent upon cattle, and he was going to take it off cattle. He said that this country was too long depending on the British market, where there was no security, and that he was going to take it off that market. The Minister for Finance said that we were too long feeding John Bull and he would take us off it. These things represent, not an accidental result of the economic war, they represent the considered policy of Fianna Fáil. When the Executive Council put into execution their economic war policy, that brought ruination to this country, the Minister for Agriculture stood in the same dumb position that he is in to-day.

Dr. Ryan

I did not. May I say——

Mr. Brennan

I am not giving way. The Minister got his opportunity when he was introducing the Estimate to explain his position. He had his opportunity then, and several times since, but he told us nothing.

General Mulcahy

He will have an opportunity of talking after you, if he wants to.

Mr. Brennan

It is apparent to us, at any rate, that while the agricultural community were being put into a ruinous position, the watchdogs of agriculture—the Minister and his Department—were just as silent as the Minister was in introducing this Vote.

Dr. Ryan

I was not silent.

Mr. Brennan

Apparently the Minister for Agriculture sat silent, also, when it was decided to take £448,000 belonging to the people of this country.

Dr. Ryan

No. I, also, supported that.

Mr. Brennan

So that the Minister's attitude has been symbolical all along.

Dr. Ryan

I was never silent. I stood for all that.

Mr. Belton

You never advocated the position of agriculture.

Mr. Brennan

When the Minister for Finance stated here: "We rid ourselves of a burden of 92 millions," the Minister for Agriculture did not think it his business to speak.

Dr. Ryan

No, because it was true.

Mr. Brennan

He is rid of the burden of 92 millions. The Executive Council have rid themselves of the burden of 92 millions but they have not rid us of the burden of 92 millions.

Dr. Ryan

I confess I do not understand that.

Mr. Brennan

The Minister knows they have not rid us of 92 millions, but he is callous to our interests. We were to have some wonderful alternatives from the Fianna Fáil Party when they were looking for our votes. I maintain that the Fianna Fáil Party did not get a mandate for the economic war. The Fianna Fáil Party asked our votes in order to enable them to put an end to the economic war. They told us that the way to end the economic war was to vote Fianna Fáil. Was that straight dealing I ask? I agree it is good enough for us. All this time that the Minister for Finance said that he had rid himself of this burden of 92 millions he did not say that he had rid us of it. On the contrary, we are paying it on the double and on the treble, and the Minister for Finance knows that.

Dr. Ryan

You say you are paying it. Who are you, may I ask?

Mr. Brennan

Oh, I am nobody, I am only a mere farmer.

Dr. Ryan

When you speak of "you," I want to know whom you mean?

Mr. Brennan

Oh, we are merely the agricultural community.

Dr. Ryan

I thought it was your Party you were speaking for.

Mr. Brennan

I did not say any such thing.

Mr. Corry

I represent as many farmers as the whole of your Party.

Mr. Brennan

I represent one farmer.

Dr. Ryan

That is true, anyhow.

Mr. Brennan

Yes, I am one of the farmers who have to work, and I have made a success of my own place. I do not run away from my responsibilities as a farmer, or in politics or in anything else. I am not one of those who went out and told the people one thing and did quite another thing. I stand over what I said, and will always do so if I possibly can. When the Fianna Fáil Party were looking for the suffrages of the people they told us that there was to be greater prosperity for the farmers and the shopkeepers, greater employment and work for all. What steps did the Minister for Agriculture take to bring about that state of affairs? I am trying to keep as near as I can to the Estimate, and I do not know whether it is quite in order to discuss, to such a wide extent, the policy of Fianna Fáil. But everyone who has spoken has done it. Fianna Fáil asked for the suffrages of the people on the distinct understanding that if they got them the farmers would get better prices for their produce. Shopkeepers were to have better sales, and as a result of all these wonders, more employment was to be given. Yet we find that the only result is that the farmers have lost not only 40 or 50 per cent. of their prices, but much more of their income. The Minister for Agriculture comes in here to introduce his Estimate, and does not say one solitary word about the alternative activities which he and his Party were supposed to have in mind for the farmers of this country.

What has happened during the Fianna Fáil regime? We hear a lot from the Fianna Fáil Party about the bottom having fallen out of the British market. But notwithstanding that the bottom has fallen out of the British market, and that it is not worth looking after, we find from the Board of Trade figures this year that, comparing April this year with April of 1932, notwithstanding the disabilities of tariffs and everything else and the goodwill we lost in the British market, there were practically 4,000 more cattle exported to Britain in April 1933 than in April, 1932. But what was the price that we got for the cattle sold in April, 1933, as against the cattle sold in April, 1932? The price was £299,000 less in 1933 than in 1932. That is what Fianna Fáil has brought us to. The Minister for Agriculture has no alternative to that. He has not even stood up here when introducing this Vote and recommended his wheat policy, the policy by which he advised the people of this country to grow wheat at 23/6 a barrel. When the Minister was a member of the Wheat Commission, and when President de Valera was also a member of that Commission, they thought that the farmers of the country could not be asked to grow wheat at less than 32/6 a barrel. At that time we could have grown wheat for nothing in comparison with now. Now we have no profit on our live-stock trade. We are losing on it, and yet we are supposed to be able to live and make a profit on growing wheat at 23/6 a barrel—the wheat that some people, apparently, will not grow, according to somebody in the House recently. I have not got that to say. What has happened with regard to the pig industry—the industry about which the Minister has become a little alarmed? Taking the first 18 weeks in the years 1931, 1932 and 1933, we find that the number of pigs bought in this country for that period in 1932, either for home curing or for export, was 12,000 less than it was in 1931, and that, in that period in 1933, it was 56,000 less. There is no explanation offered by the Minister and there is no alternative offered to the people. The Minister comes into this House and sits here in silence and waits to hear what is being said without saying any word whatever in extenuation of his policy which has brought such poverty and such ruination on this country.

Deputy Smith, some time ago, spoke about "the usual whine" from these benches. It is a pity that Deputy Smith would not read the usual whine we were accustomed to from these same benches when Fianna Fáil was in opposition. Is it not a wonder that Deputy Smith, or some of his fellow-Deputies, would not try to get down to the Estimate, to the Department of Agriculture, to what their policy has brought to this country and what remedies they were going to offer us? It is of no advantage to this House, and, I think, it is of very little interest, to hear what Deputy Smith thinks of Deputy McGovern or what the voters in Cavan did with regard to Deputy Smith's third preference votes. That has absolutely no interest for the rest of us, but it would be interesting to hear from Deputy Smith what he thought the Fianna Fáil policy was going to do for the farmers. He said that they had a mandate to come in here and carry out their policy. Their policy, so far, has had only one result, and neither Deputy Smith nor the Minister has endeavoured to tell us what they are going to give us as an alternative.

We hear a lot about turf. I think that that matter will answer itself and does not call for any comment from me. Deputy Cleary said yesterday that he was speaking on behalf of the small farmers of Connaught and he said that there was no man in this House or in the country who would try to bring back the 200-acre farm as an economic proposition. What struck me very forcibly in that matter was whether Deputy Cleary represented the ordinary mentality of the farmer element of Fianna Fáil. Has he given any thought to the matter at all? As a matter of fact, the 200-acre farmer is not the man who has got the worst of this war at all. I know 200-acre people who sold their cattle at a dead loss at the beginning of the economic war, but they bought at very bad prices and they are selling at a reasonable profit now, but the men whom Deputy Cleary thought he was representing, the people who rear young calves, who have the young stock, the producers, those are the people who are getting the real stroke in the economic war. They are the real small farmers and, to my mind, if the economic war continues, the 200-acre farmer has a much better chance of surviving than the small farmer. He is not in the same category at all.

Then, again, we have the Minister either agreeing or sitting as silent as he has sat here when the Government tells the country that there is only one market for it—the home market. The Executive Council then proceeds to cut the salaries of the non-producers in this market so that the purchasing power will be reduced, and so that this market will be further depressed. Yet the Minister sits as silent as he has sat here to-day——

Mr. Belton

Or votes for it.

Mr. Brennan

Or votes for it. There is all this inconsistency while the country is becoming poorer and poorer. A long while ago, the Napoleon of the Bourbons made the remark: "They have learned nothing and they have forgotten nothing." That seems to be the position of Fianna Fáil. There is absolutely no chance in the world of this country making any progress industrially unless the farming community is put on its feet and kept on its feet. The prosperity of the agricultural community is absolutely the first essential to industrial prosperity, and if the Government lose sight of that one fundamental fact they cannot expect any progress. The investing public in this country, at all times, have been the people who are, in some shape or form, dependent on the farming community, and the extraordinary thing about it is that we find the President of the Executive Council and members of his Cabinet complaining of people in this country not investing their money in local enterprise and industry. What money? Where have they got the money? The farmers are not able to pay their accounts and the shopkeepers are running out of funds. The Minister knows that as well as I do; it is no news to him. What is he going to do about it? What is his alternative to the present position? It is not 40 per cent. that the people are losing on their live stock at present. Like Deputy Kelly, who told us about meeting a lady who met somebody who had met somebody else, I happened the other day to be travelling in the train with three of the most prominent cattle buyers in this country. They were coming from a fair, and one of them told me of 22 cattle he had bought at £7 10/- each. They were aged cattle and they were bought off stall at £7 10/- each. Those cattle cost the owner £9, 11 months before. He had put them on stall and had fattened them and he got £7 10/- each for them. I said to the man: "You must have robbed that man; you got them unfairly," but he said, "No, each of those is going to cost me £6 a head to put them across and £3 in feeding and freight.

Mr. Anthony

The farmer is supposed to get the bounty?

Mr. Brennan

That is a very good indication of how things are going in this country. A man buys cattle for £9, feeds them for 11 months and sells them for £7 10/- That type of man is supposed to invest money in Irish industry.

Mr. Belton

He has invested and has lost.

Mr. Brennan

The Minister talks about bounties saving the situation. I have very little faith in bounties. I suppose they do a certain amount of good, and that there is no use trying to discredit them. I think many Fianna Fáil Deputies, who are farmers, will agree with me that bounties are of very little use when paying rent. Whatever good bounties were up to this, according to the new plan which the Minister for Finance has devised for finding the money for them, they are going to be of much less use to the country in the future. The bounty system is about the best illustration there can be of feeding a dog on its tail. We are paying for the bounty, and then we are supposed to get the money back. I say that the people are not getting their money back. Others say that they are getting a very little of it back. In his Budget speech the Minister for Finance brought in new proposals on behalf of agriculture and proposed to pay £2,500,000 by way of bounties in order to deal with the economic war. The Minister stated that an asset on which he was going to borrow had been created by the economic war—the asset being the deferred annuity payments. The Minister for Finance got away with that. The Minister knows very well that he cannot borrow on an item like that. If he borrows at all he must borrow on the credit of the country. The Government is not going to borrow to pay the bounties, in other words, to feed the dog on its own tail, because the dog has the tail eaten off now. They are not going to borrow to get the dog more tails. They will pay him off with his life blood. That is the new system. There could hardly be anything more eloquent in this matter than the Minister's silence. Anything I could say would not be as eloquent as the Minister's silence.

Mr. Belton

And the absence of his colleagues.

Mr. Brennan

I am sure the Minister for Agriculture realises just as acutely as anyone else the present position in this country. He realises that the farmers cannot continue, and that agriculture cannot continue in its present position. Something must happen. I have a certain amount of sympathy for the Minister for Agriculture, not that he appreciates it. I cannot help having sympathy for him, considering that in the present world depression the position under any circumstances was going to be one of fighting for existence, fighting for the top. Conditions have become so bad, by the policy of Fianna Fáil, that it is really a puzzle to the Minister to know what to do, or to know what he can do. If I was in the Minister's position I would feel very humiliated. I suppose he will try to make some excuse. I will be very interested to know what remedy the Minister has. I hope he will make some attempt to deal with the situation. I have at least this much faith in the Minister that I believe he is honest. I am sure Deputy Kelly is glad to hear me saying that, because the Deputy stated recently that it was a pity people on the Opposition Benches would not give to those on the Government Benches the credit of having good intentions. I would like to remind Deputy Kelly of what a famous figure in European history said and I would recommend it to Fianna Fáil: "Here lies a man who, with the best of intentions, never achieved anything."

Mr. Kelly

Who was he?

Mr. Brennan

A Hungarian. I will get the name for the Deputy.

Minister for Agriculture (Dr. Ryan)

I have been accused by certain members of the Opposition of doing the rather unprecedented thing of introducing this Estimate without making a speech. I think I have been amply justified by the speeches we heard from the opposite benches. I knew very well what was going to be said on this Vote, and I knew that we would hear about the economic war, in order to try to break the morale of the people. Deputies talked about a settlement of the economic war and pretended that they would like to see a successful settlement. They do not want to see a successful settlement, because they know very well that a successful settlement means the end of Cumann na nGaedheal and the Centre Party in this country. They took the opportunity to point out to the British Government, all the time, that the farmers were suffering, and that they could not stand it very much longer. They tried to hold that hope out in order that British Ministers might feel that if they held out a little longer they were going to beat us, and if the British Ministers could beat us, Cumann na nGaedheal and the Centre Party would come back strong and it did not matter about the country. That is the attitude they adopted. They did not want to see a successful issue of the economic war, because if they did, they would not have gone on with that kind of talk. Deputy Brennan said that we went out at the last election and told the people that if Fianna Fáil were returned to power there would be an end to the economic war. Would there be? Does not everyone see, after the speeches that were made by Deputy Brennan, Deputy Belton, Deputy McGovern and others that if we had been thrown out by the electors at the last election there would be an end to the economic war and that the British Government would get——

Mr. Belton

Keep to the Estimate.

Dr. Ryan

What speaker on the Opposition Benches kept to the Estimate?

Mr. Belton

Everyone of them.

Dr. Ryan

Not a single speaker on the Opposition mentioned the Estimate, except Deputy Brodrick who asked me four or five questions. The other Deputies did not do so, holding that there was no necessity to look at it. All they were concerned with was making the same speeches that they made at the last election, about the economic war ruining the farmers.

Mr. Belton

On a point of order, I would ask the Minister to stick to the Estimate.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not a point of order.

Mr. Belton

I asked the Minister to justify his wheat scheme.

Dr. Ryan

I will come to that, but I will speak generally first. Like Deputy Smith I would like to give a little advice. At the last election people who had previously voted for Cumann na nGaedheal saw through their policy and voted for us. It is time to drop the attitude of trying to break the morale of the people, because the Opposition will lose by it.

Mr. Anthony

The Minister knows that was due to personation.

Dr. Ryan

Deputy Brodrick raised some points on the Estimate. He asked about the technical staff officers in the Gaeltacht. The Deputy was quite right when he stated that £120 was voted last year for this service, and that nothing is provided this year. Before I came into office last year it was considered that it might be necessary to appoint additional poultry overseers. It was not found necessary to do so by the Department, and, as the Deputy will observe, the money was not spent. It was put down as a Token Vote and is removed this year. The Deputy also asked about sub-head M4 being reduced, and complained that although we were advocating a policy of increased tillage we were at the same time cutting down the allowance for machinery. That is not right. The reduction in this Estimate has been made principally for stallions and premium bulls. The amount for hand-spraying machinery has increased by £200, and for agricultural implements is increased by the same amount. Up to recently the Agricultural Credit Corporation only sanctioned loans for implements down to £50.

The Agricultural Credit Corporation loan came down to £50, and the Department of Agriculture loan went up to £50. Now, the Agricultural Credit Corporation goes down to £30, so the Department need not give a higher loan than £30 for any of those purposes. With regard to sub-head G. 2, he also complained that although we had reduced the grants to milk testing associations we had increased the payment to the supervisors. That, of course, is because the Department has really undertaken a greater share of the cost of those schemes, and the members have to pay less than they did previously. Instead of the Department, as Deputy Broderick thought, giving less encouragement in this direction they are, as a matter of fact, giving more encouragement. With regard to the Clifden Rural Domestic Economy School it was mentioned that there was a complaint at the County Committee in Galway with regard to the teaching of Irish there. I cannot answer that at the moment, but I have taken a note of it.

Another matter was raised by Deputy Roddy in connection with sub-head M 5. He says that for this very useful scheme for the improvement of the creamery industry we have reduced our Estimate by something like £85,000. As a matter of fact we have increased it. Last year it was £146,500. Out of that £146,500, £112,000 went to pay losses on the Dairy Disposals Board that were incurred during my predecessor's term of office. I had the magnanimity, when I came into office, to wipe out the debts incurred by my predecessor, and I have now started off with a clean sheet. That £112,000 that was voted last year was to clear off those debts. When we deduct that £112,000 we have an Estimate of £64,000 this year, as against £34,000 last year. I think there was nothing else asked on the sub-heads.

Mr. Curran

I asked a question on G 3 (A).

Dr. Ryan

Loss on resale of stallions; that is not an ordinary trading loss. The stallions are bought at the best possible price we can get them for, but they are invariably sold to the purchaser at what would be considered a reasonable price for the purchaser. As far as we can go back into the history of the Department since the Free State was established that has been the practice. It is not an ordinary trading loss through bad judgment on the part of the buyer. It is a subsidy, if you like, to the purchaser.

Deputy Keyes asked a question also about Irish-made keels and kegs. I promised, as Deputy Keyes said, to try to encourage this industry, but I found on investigation that I had no power to make regulations that, say, butter for the home market should be put into keels and kegs, and that butter for the foreign market should be put into pyramid boxes. Members will realise that the market we had in Great Britain was for pyramid boxes and not for keels and kegs, but that on the other hand, the market we have been succeeding in getting on the Continent is a market for keels and kegs. To that extent, the demand for keels and kegs has been growing. As a matter of fact what Deputy Keyes said may be true, that there are at present only two coopers working in Limerick; but I had a letter from the manufacturer towards the end of last year and he told me that his 14 coopers were working overtime. The question is rather involved in that way, that under the present Creamery Acts I have no power to prescribe one type of container for the home market and another for the export market. I must prescribe the same for them all. The matter is involved in many other ways, and, as Deputies know, the whole question of keels, kegs, barrels, and containers has been referred to the Tariff Commission. We hope to have a report from them on the position before very long. I do not think there will be very much delay.

To go back on what was said in other directions, Deputy Dillon opened the debate when the Estimate was introduced. I thought, as a matter of fact, that it spoke rather badly for the Opposition to have Deputy Dillon opening the debate on this Estimate. However, he did not consider it very much, except that he complained that the Fianna Fáil Benches were empty while he was speaking, which I thought was a tribute to the good sense of this Party. He spoke in the usual A to Z fashion.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

Might I point out to the Minister that the Fianna Fáil Benches are now empty also? Is that a proof of their good sense?

Dr. Ryan

No, there is quite a number here. In any case, I do not require them here. I am speaking principally for the benefit of the Opposition. Deputy Dillon spoke, as I say, in the usual A to Z fashion. He knows everything about every subject that comes up. He himself said here several times: "I know this subject from A to Z." The peculiar thing was that when Deputy Hogan began asking him a few questions he said that those were things which should not be discussed in this House. When asked to get down to details he was not prepared to face the issues. He said they could be discussed outside the House, but not here. His boast about A to Z was shattered in a few moments. I do not think there was anything else worth while raised by Deputy Dillon.

Deputy Bennett opened his speech with the usual accusation made by Deputy Brennan and others, that this Executive Council, of which I am a member, were responsible for the economic war; that is to say, that Great Britain had no part in or responsibility for it.

Mr. V. Rice

Who fired the first shot?

Mr. Belton

You broke the agreement that existed.

A Deputy

It is a blessing in disguise anyway!

Dr. Ryan

I am very glad to get this from the Opposition; I am very glad to know that they stand even stronger with Mr. Thomas than the Labour Party in England.

Mr. Belton

That is a comment, not an answer. You broke the agreement that existed.

Mr. Anthony

Is the other person not entitled to hit back?

Dr. Ryan

I discussed this question with the British Ministers in Ottawa——

Mr. Morrissey

Tell us about it.

Dr. Ryan

I never heard them put up as good a case on the British side as I have heard put up in this House for the British. They did not claim half as much as the Cumann na nGaedheal Party claims for them.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

If Deputies want to know all they say they want to know would not their best course be to listen?

Mr. T. Kelly

They will not listen to the Minister now.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

If the Minister does not give way——

Mr. Anthony

I believe the Minister is sportsman enough to admit this; is he prepared to admit that, having started the war himself, the other person is entitled to hit back?

Dr. Ryan

Of course he is. He is entitled to hit back all right, but there are various things which arise from that. We do not admit that we started the war ourselves.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

The President admitted that he fired the first shot.

Mr. Belton

Then tell us how it was started?

Mr. Hales

It was started by your treachery. You find it very bitter to hear the truth.

Mr. Belton

What did you tell us that your brother and Mick Collins told you ten years ago?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Even a Minister is entitled to be listened to. It does not follow because a Deputy is a Minister that he should not be listened to. Probably the reverse is the case.

Dr. Ryan

I should like to say this: that the other party to the dispute is naturally entitled to hit back, but we just claim a little help from the people of this country. All we ask is that they should be silent and if they do that we will be quite satisfied. We do not want them to be always pointing out to the British Government what to do and pointing out what is the best way for the British Government to hit us. I admit that it suits the Opposition to do so, but I would ask them to try to be a little bit patriotic and keep it to themselves and if they want to send the information to Mr. Thomas, at least to send it by registered post and not broadcast it all over the country, because it will come against them some time.

Deputy Bennett, as I say, said that the Executive Council was responsible for the economic war and I have got, I think, general agreement from the other side now—both from the Centre Party and the Cumann na nGaedheal Party—that all the blame lies on us and that no blame whatsoever attaches to the British Government. As a matter of fact, Deputy MacDermot went further and said not only that the blame lay on us but that we were dishonest. The British Government, of course, according to him, were honourable, as usual, in all their undertakings, and we were responsible for the whole thing. The British Government, according to Deputy MacDermot, had no responsibility. Then, Deputy MacDermot commenced to point out Britain's case. He said that against the £5,000,000 which we claim, that, if ever it comes to a conference the British could claim £1,000,000 from the land stock holders, £750,000 in respect of the R.I.C. Pensions Fund and £2,000,000 in respect of the ex-Army men. In other words, he made up a bill of £3,750,000 as against the £5,000,000; and if Deputy MacDermot were the chairman of this tribunal or conference I have no doubt that he would say: "Ireland is paying £1,250,000 more than England but, after all, you have to take into consideration the dishonourable and dishonest attitude of the Irish people in this matter and it is only fair that Ireland should pay the total."

Mr. Curran

In the absence of Deputy MacDermot, I should like to correct what the Minister alleges he said. Deputy MacDermot did say that there was a considerable amount of this money payable to Irish land stockholders coming back to this country.

Dr. Ryan

That is right.

Mr. Curran

What Deputy MacDermot did say was that he thought the Fianna Fáil Government acted dishonourably in breaking the agreement without first seeking otherwise to have a reasonable settlement brought about.

Dr. Ryan

I quite admit that that is what Deputy MacDermot said, but to say that this Government did not try to have an honourable agreement is not very fair, because this Government did agree to arbitration but did not agree to have a chairman on that arbitration board or committee who was practically certain to be partial to the other side. That was all we objected to as far as that is concerned. Deputy Hogan spoke on this Estimate.

Mr. Belton

Do not get away from the wheat.

Dr. Ryan

Deputy Belton comes after Deputy Hogan. I will come to Deputy Belton afterwards. Deputy Hogan, who appeared in this House— having summoned up the courage, I suppose, to come here three or four months after the election—had the confounded cheek to talk about the Fianna Fáil attendance or lack of attendance. Deputy Hogan, who had not the courage to appear since the results of the last election were declared, comes here three or four months afterwards and goes on to talk about prices, and he supports his contention on the question of prices by saying that he knows what he is talking about. He talks about lambs selling at £1 a head, and that last year they were selling at 36/- a head. I wonder where he got the information that lambs were selling at 36/- a head last year? Would any Deputy in the House say that he got 36/- a head for lambs last year?

Mr. Keating

Yes, I did; and I can prove it to the Minister.

Mr. Corry

Well, I did not.

Dr. Ryan

Will any Deputy in the House say that he got 47/- for lambs two years ago?

Mr. Keating

Yes, and I got 50/-.

Dr. Ryan

Oh, the Deputy will say anything.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

On a point of order, sir, is the Minister entitled to bring a charge against a Deputy in this House? I contend that to use the phrase "the Deputy will say anything," constitutes a direct charge of making a false statement.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I cannot construe it as a charge of making false statements. The Minister said that the Deputy would say anything. That does not, necessarily, mean that the Deputy would make a false statement.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

Surely, it means that the Deputy would say anything regardless of whether it were true or false.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There is no qualification as to the truth or falsity of what the Deputy said. The Minister merely said that the Deputy would say anything. I cannot construe that as meaning that he would make a false declaration.

Mr. Keating

Is the Minister prepared to state that anything I said is untrue?

Dr. Ryan

The Deputy knows very well that I would not accuse him of an untruth.

Mr. Keating

But the Minister did accuse me.

Dr. Ryan

The Deputy knows that I have too much respect for him to accuse him of making a false statement.

Mr. Belton

Does the Minister accept the Deputy's prices? If the Minister does not accept the Deputy's prices he is not taking his word.

Dr. Ryan

Deputy Hogan said another thing. He said: "We hear nothing about agricultural tariffs now." Of course not, but if they are taken off you will hear plenty about them. Take the tariff off butter and you will hear a lot about it. Deputy Hogan says that we hear nothing about tariffs now, but take off the tariff and the prohibition on imported butter and you will have Australian butter coming in here at 80/- a cwt. Perhaps the Dublin people will get it cheaper; 80/- a cwt. would be about 9d. a lb., but surely the wholesaler and the retailer have to get something out of it and that would probably mean that it would be sold at 11d. a lb. here. Where would the creameries come in in that case, and where would the farmers who supply the creameries come in, if we take the prohibition and the tariff off? Where would we be if we allowed Polish bacon to come in at 27/- a cwt.? There is talk about mutton and lamb. There is a tariff of 6d. a lb. on mutton and lamb and, in in spite of that, New Zealand lamb came in a month ago and paid 56/- a cwt., and it was sold here in the Dublin shops. The same applies to poultry, about which some Deputies talked so much. If these Deputies only examined the position they would find that poultry was getting more for the last three months than it had been getting in the last three years. That was due to the tariff, because we allowed no Russian or Chinese or other kinds of chickens to come in. The same applies, as Deputy Corry said, to barley. Deputy Corry was right when he said that the farmers here were getting 14/- and 15/- for their barley, while in the Six Counties and in Britain they were getting only about 9/-.

About ten minutes ago Deputy Belton mentioned a tariff on rhubarb, and when he was finished I told him that there was a tariff on it; but he did not know that.

Mr. Belton

On a point of correction, I have not here advocated what the Minister has said. I think it is the rule of the House that a Minister or a Deputy should quote another Deputy correctly.

Mr. Corry

I will give the quotation.

Dr. Ryan

It is all right.

Mr. Belton

Do not misrepresent me. I knew quite well that the tariff was there. I told the Minister I was responsible for getting it there.

Mr. MacEntee

Who made the world? Is the Deputy responsible for that also?

Mr. V. Rice

Is that a joke?

Mr. Belton

I was indirectly responsible for making the Minister a Minister for Finance.

Mr. O'Leary

The Minister made the Budget, anyway.

Dr. Ryan

While we are at rhubarb, we may as well dispose of it. I remember Deputy Belton telling us how a tariff should be imposed. He wanted to illustrate the point that it was dangerous to put a tariff on overnight, because you might hit the consumer. But when the British put the tariffs on overnight they always hit us; according to Deputy Belton, they did not hit the consumers at all. Deputy Belton talked about people going to the Minister and asking him for a tariff on rhubarb next November. I think that implies that he did not know there was a tariff. I said on that occasion: "Is the Deputy aware that there has been a tariff on rhubarb for 12 months?" Deputy Belton said: "I did not get time to answer, but it will be interesting to the Minister to know that I, and not the Minister, was responsible for that tariff, because I was behind the deputation that put the case up to him." There was no deputation to put the case up to me.

Mr. Belton

The case was put up to the Minister by the Rush growers, and I was asked to accompany that deputation.

Dr. Ryan

There was no deputation to put the case up to me. The tariff was decided on by my Department and, having imposed it, we then invited certain people to come to us in order to discuss what changes might be advisable in their opinion. We asked people to come who were interested in the growing, canning and distribution of vegetables, and amongst them were the Rush growers.

Mr. Belton

This tariff on rhubarb was a tariff on forced rhubarb.

Dr. Ryan

On all rhubarb all the year round.

Mr. Belton

There is no need to put a tariff on rhubarb this season, because nobody outside of a lunatic asylum is going to import it. It was a tariff only on forced rhubarb. Did the Minister not ask the deputation would they guarantee a supply of forced rhubarb from the end of November to the beginning or the middle of March in case he decided to put a tariff on forced rhubarb?

Dr. Ryan

Yes, that question was put to them, of course.

Mr. Belton

The Minister has just now stated that he put on the tariff before consulting any deputation.

Dr. Ryan

Yes, the tariff was put on before that.

Mr. Belton

Your policy is to knock a fellow down and then ask him if he is hurt.

Mr. Corry

Did the Deputy give any part of the guarantee?

Mr. Belton

The Minister is in a bit of a knot now.

Dr. Ryan

The Deputy knows very little about these matters.

Mr. Belton

The Deputy understands agriculture from A to Z, and it would be a good job if the Minister knew as much.

Dr. Ryan

It was as a result of the conference that the tariff was amended.

Mr. Belton

The Minister does not seek justification for the tariff before he imposes it. He first puts it on and then asks people if it is doing any harm.

Dr. Ryan

Yes, and it can be amended then. On another occasion, Deputy Belton said that I will spoil the whole business of wheat growing before somebody who really knows the business comes in to take charge. I presume the Deputy means by that, that before Cumann na nGaedheal comes back into office with Deputy Belton as Minister for Agriculture I will spoil the whole position.

Mr. Belton

Stick to the job.

Dr. Ryan

The Deputy's observations in relation to wheat show his extraordinary ignorance of the whole subject. That was more than I expected from Deputy Belton. I thought he knew something about wheat but he evidently does not. His whole contention is that we have not got a variety of hard milling wheat for bakers' bread. Evidently Deputy Belton is not aware of the fact that two-thirds of the flour of this country is used as household flour and is entirely composed of soft wheat. That is just the type of wheat we grow in this country. We can go ahead with our wheat scheme and be content that we have a market for two-thirds of our entire supply—the soft wheat that we can grow more successfully than they can grow it in Canada. We can get double the amount per acre than they can in Canada.

Take bakers' flour. One would imagine, listening to Deputy Belton, that bakers' flour is composed of all hard wheat. That is not the case. It is composed of 60 per cent. hard wheat and 40 per cent. soft wheat. That means that until we reach 650,000 acres of wheat we need not grow hard wheat at all. We have all the necessary soft wheat here. Deputy Belton alleges that we are going ahead without thinking of strains. He is really speaking in ignorance of the whole subject. The strains we have are all right. We have the strains we want. We have the soft wheat that is being used to the extent of two-thirds in the household and to the extent of 40 per cent. in bakers' flour. We have some hard wheat also that can be used in bakers' flour.

Mr. Curran

What quality is the hard wheat?

Dr. Ryan

If I had time I could look up one of the Department's journals for the year 1928. In that journal you will find a report from Mr. Odlum stating that he milled Yeoman No. 2 wheat and he describes the flour that he got. He said it was quite suitable. Then there is a report underneath from the baker who made the flour into bread. He said it formed a loaf which had sufficient glutin to make the loaf rise in a proper way. That bakers' loaf was made entirely from Yeoman No. 2 wheat without any hard wheat from Canada or anywhere else.

Mr. Curran

I grew the wheat about which the Minister is talking and it was an absolute failure. I would not recommend any farmer in the country to grow it.

Mr. Corry

The Deputy is a bad farmer.

Mr. Curran

I am a better farmer than you are.

Mr. Corry

I grew it successfully.

Mr. Belton

For the Minister's information, the pamphlet to which he refers was published in 1927.

Dr. Ryan

Quite right.

Mr. Belton

It was the result of an experiment recommended by a conference of the Committees of Agriculture.

Dr. Ryan

And the Deputy was responsible?

Mr. Belton

Yes. I did not want to say it, but the Minister asked the question. The conference met in the chamber of the Dublin County Council and I, as Chairman of the Dublin County Committee of Agriculture, called the conference together at a time when the Minister and his colleagues would not recognise this House. We recommended that to the Department. The Secretary to the Department was at the Conference, with Dr. Hinchcliff, Mr. O'Connell and a few others, and it was finally recommended to the Minister for Finance at the time. We asked for £300 to carry through the experiment. The experiment was that an acre of wheat be grown, seeded with Yeoman, in each county in the Free State. I agree with the Minister that the object of our experiment was successful. The object of the experiment was not as regards quantity but to ascertain in how many counties and how widely apart this hard wheat could be grown. The experiment demonstrated that in every county in the Free State a good grain could be grown. The pamphlet referred to, the report of the Department, and the experiments generally show that. The fault in this strain of wheat is that it is not suitable for economic cultivation in this country. We were out to demonstrate if it could be grown. The glutin was a little less than in the best Manitoba. Mr. Odlum, Mr. Shackleton and Mr. Browne were the three bakers responsible for milling and baking the bread. I ate some of the bread.

Dr. Ryan

So did I.

Mr. Belton

The Minister will agree, I am sure, that as regards the quality it produced good bread.

Dr. Ryan

Certainly, it was very good.

Mr. Belton

It is only fair to say that as a result of that experiment it was found that it is an economic proposition to grow Yeoman, too. The Minister said that if he had time—he has the Secretary to the Department at his elbow—he could get in ten minutes the leaflet issued by the Department. If he had told me about it yesterday I could have produced it for him to-day.

Dr. Ryan

Deputy Belton says that the wheat produced good bread, but the Deputy who grew the wheat says it was a failure.

Mr. Belton

I said it is not an economic proposition to grow wheat in this country, and that is what Deputy Curran said.

Dr. Ryan

We have it admitted, at any rate, that the soft wheat grown in this country can be grown up to about 650,000 acres. In the meantime we will consider the question with regard to the hard wheat. Deputy Belton says we cannot grow it. Deputy Belton says that we have only a lecturer on plant breeding in the university, and that we should have a professor instead. Everyone admits that the man who holds the lectureship is the best we could get. I do not think that changing a lectureship into a professorship is going to make very much difference. That is the kind of criticism we are getting. The suggestion is that if we cannot breed suitable wheat under a lectureship then we should have a professorship.

Mr. Belton

If I may say so, that is a very ignorant way of dealing with an important matter.

Dr. Ryan

So far as I can see it is the only way to deal with the Deputy's observations. I do not think the Deputy said much else. His speech dealt largely with rhubarb and wheat.

Mr. Belton

Can the Minister contradict the statement that since they started wheat breeding experiments in Canada there has been this big improvement?

Dr. Ryan

In Canada they are going much further north now as a result of the breeding experiments carried out. The Deputy said that as a result of that they ought to be able to realise in Canada probably 100,000,000 dollars more for their wheat. He was talking, I think, of 1928. What would the figure be now? I should say that the gain to them now would be about 20,000,000 dollars, and they have no economic war there. That is the point I want to bring out. The change in values is due to world prices and not to an economic war. The position, therefore, is that what was worth 100,000,000 dollars in 1928 is now worth 20,000,000 dollars. If Deputy Brennan was a member of the Canadian Parliament he would be kicking up a terrible row and saying that the economic war was the cause of the drop in value.

Mr. Belton

At any rate, we are 40 per cent. worse off than they are, and that is all due to you and your colleagues.

Dr. Ryan

We are 100 per cent. worse off because of the Opposition we have.

Mr. Belton

I am the member of the Opposition who brought you in here. You were roaming about for five years. And then we are told that we are playing England's game. According to the Minister we are.

Dr. Ryan

The Deputy always played it.

Mr. Corry

Deputy Belton himself got kicked out.

Dr. Ryan

In slaughter houses in America they keep an old sheep for leading cattle in to be slaughtered. When the cattle go through to be slaughtered the sheep goes out. Deputy Belton says he brought us in here, but he went out himself. I want now to deal with the speech of Deputy Mulcahy. He said that I should listen to the complaints made by farmers at their meetings throughout the country. I am told that Deputy Mulcahy is the most active man in the Cumann na nGaedheal Party; in fact, that he complains of the amount of work that is thrown on him. I know all that the Cumann na nGaedheal Party have done to work up meetings throughout the country in order to have complaints made, to pass protest resolutions and so on. We see a good deal about that in the newspapers. I was not impressed by a lot of what went on at those meetings, because I know how the thing was worked up. As a matter of fact it is dying off a bit now. People are beginning to see through it. They are beginning to see through the members of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party and the Centre Party. I have been speaking to farmers about this. They told me they now realise that if that kind of thing had stopped long ago the economic war would have been ended by now. These people are not interested in the Cumann na nGaedheal Party again coming back to power, or in the Centre Party, or even in Fianna Fáil. What they want is to see the question settled, and they are going to remain quiet in future, no matter what advice they get from Cumann na nGaedheal.

Mr. Brennan

Deputy Smith says that he does not want to see it settled at all.

Dr. Ryan

Deputy Mulcahy said that butter was selling in the Free State at 1/4 per lb. and at 9d. in London. I would like to know more about the philanthropic wholesalers and retailers who are selling butter in London at the price they pay for it. Australian butter is selling in London at 82s. per cwt. Does anybody think that Australian butter, after passing through the hands of wholesalers, retailers, and being made up in pounds is going to be retailed at the price paid for it to the importers? The figures that the Deputy gave are like a lot of figures we get from that side of the House, absolute nonsense, but now and again we are able to catch them out. Deputy Mulcahy also said that the output of Irish agriculture consumed in the Free State was value for in or about £11,000,000. I would like to know where he got that figure. He said that our exports of butter were worth at one time 4½ millions. They were never worth that under Cumann na nGaedheal government. As a matter of fact they were never worth that except "in the good old days" when the British Government were here, and some of the people opposite would like to see them back again. At the time the Cumann na nGaedheal Government came into office the value of these exports was reduced very substantially, and by the time we came in the figure was down to £2,000,000.

Mr. Belton

What are they now?

Dr. Ryan

By the end of the year we will see. Deputy Roddy says there are savings of £100,000 but that is after wiping out the losses made by my predecessor under the Dairy Disposals Board. He says that there is need for a reorganisation of the creamery industry in Sligo and elsewhere.

The same point was made by Deputy Kent and Deputy Corry in regard to East Cork. We are very anxious to reorganise the whole creamery industry if we think we are going to be helpful to the industry. Usually when we bring in a Bill or proposals such as these before the Dáil we have the cry of "interference" from the Opposition and we are told that the Government should not interfere in these matters. We agree that we should interfere as little as possible. If we take Sligo as an example, possibly very much good would be done to the industry if the creameries were reorganised so that there would be two or three or four economic units. Unless that can be done we do not see the use of spending money on such a scheme.

The only distance we could get in Sligo at present is to organise one group at the cost of a few thousand pounds and leave the rest as they are. We do not see the use of doing that. East Cork is in a different position. Deputy Kent said that promises were made in East Cork by Fianna Fáil that if we were returned creameries would be built. That is possibly true, because the Department had surveyed the area in East Cork. We intended to see if it was possible to improve the position by the erection of creameries. We have not dropped this question by any means. As a matter of fact, I think part of that scheme will be proceeded with.

Mr. Kent

How soon does the Minister think they will be built? Considering that at Castlelyons creamery they have to deal with 11,000 gallons of milk, the need for these creameries is very urgent.

Dr. Ryan

The first thing we have to try to do is to get the co-operative creameries to erect auxiliaries. That method does not succeed sometimes. To a small extent it has in East Cork. There are two auxiliaries being attached to a co-operative creamery there. There has been another type of scheme in County Clare, where the Dairy Disposals Board built a whole group attached to one central creamery. Having got them working economically, they hope to hand them over to the suppliers and the co-operative concern after some time. These two ways are being considered. I could not say for the moment whether it will be necessary to resort to the second method.

Mr. Corry

The Minister is aware that the ground in East Cork has been surveyed; he is aware that full preparations were made for a scheme to build four to six auxiliaries to the creamery, and he is aware that his Department got the required number of cows for each auxiliary. We want to know now when that scheme is going ahead without any more nonsense about it.

Mr. Dillon

That is the stuff to give them.

Dr. Ryan

I have already answered that question. Deputy Roddy said that the Danes——

Mr. Corry

Is the Minister going to tell us whether the scheme is going to go ahead in East Cork?

Dr. Ryan

I said the matter is under consideration.

Mr. Kent

I hope Deputy Corry will give us his assistance to make the Government carry out their promises there.

Mr. Corry

Every promise I ever made I kept.

Mr. Kent

They promised to build creameries there which have not been built.

Mr. Corry

They will be built.

Dr. Ryan

Deputy Roddy said that the Danes would not allow any sentimental nonsense to stand in the way of any trade agreement with Britain. I am sure they would not. Neither would we, but £5,000,000 a year is no nonsense. I think if it were put to Denmark that they could get an agreement with Britain provided they handed over £5,000,000 a year they would not want the agreement. They would not consider it sentimental nonsense, and if they were asked to come in as part of the British Empire they might not be so anxious for an agreement.

Mr. Belton

Are you not in the British Empire?

Dr. Ryan

I tried to fight my way out of it more than once. I am talking about Denmark. Deputy Roddy said that at the end of two or three years the farmers would not be able to pay their way. That is the longest lease we got since we came into power. A Deputy of the Centre Party gave them only one or two months. Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney said that next harvest would finish it. When the economic war was started in June or July last we were told that October would see the end of it. When it came to October, things had not become so bad perhaps as they had hoped and they said that Christmas would finish it. When it came to Christmas things were not as bad as they had hoped and they said that in Spring the farmers would not be able to sow their crops. Now that we have got over the Spring they hope that next harvest will finish it, but their hopes are all in vain.

Mr. Holohan

We see they were in vain.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister is in possession.

Dr. Ryan

The only thing that is quite clear is that the Cumann na nGaedheal Party and the Centre Party are finished, because the farmers have held out against them.

Mr. Holohan

Their Party is finished.

Dr. Ryan

Of course, their Party is finished. This Party is finishing all Parties.

Mr. Bennett

Exactly.

Mr. Holohan

The farmers are finished anyhow. You have left them without any money.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister must be heard without interruption.

Dr. Ryan

Deputy Kent made another observation. He said that we should have veterinary inspectors to examine calves going into the market, because many of these calves were spreading disease. I should like to hear the sarcastic remarks of the deputy leader of Deputy Kent's Party on that question. When I brought in a motion here dealing with the pig and bacon industry, he made a speech about my trying to interfere, by veterinary inspection, with bacon factories. He said that I was going to interfere with bacon factories by appointing veterinary inspectors to visit them. I did not know what interest he had in farms or in bacon factories at the time he made his speech. I believe he had some visitors in the gallery, but he objected to my interference with bacon factories by veterinary inspection.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister recklessly states what is absolutely false. I told him at the time that I was astonished that he was so grossly ignorant of his duty in regard to protecting the public by veterinary inspection of these factories as to think that it was necessary to set up a commission to encourage him to do so. I told him that he should know his business without requiring any advice from a commission, requiring him to do that. If he refers to the Official Report he will find that that was what I said.

Dr. Ryan

Any member of the Deputy's Party should know his business better than to think that I have power to inspect calves going into the market, or to think that I will get any sympathy from the House if I sought to have such things done.

Mr. Kent

Is it not the usual custom to have a veterinary surgeon to examine sheep and other animals at certain places in order to detect disease? Should it not be the duty of such inspectors to examine calves which are spreading diseases such as scour and pneumonia in many parts of the country?

Dr. Ryan

They have power to examine them but their powers are limited in that respect. Deputy O'Sullivan next contributed to the debate. His contention was that we, by our policy, were likely to increase the number of live stock in the country and at same time were destroying the market for that live stock. I have been accused of not seeing that point some time ago, that an increase of tillage will increase live stock. At all events, Deputy Brennan was one of the men who said that I only saw the point lately. I know very well Deputy Brennan never read the report of the committee on wheat on which he sat in 1928. He put his name to it without reading it. That is obvious now. In that report there is a reference to it. We referred to it in our Minority Report and we pointed out as plainly as could be that an extension of tillage by way of wheat growing or anything else would inevitably lead to an increase in the number of live stock. I signed that report. I always suspected that Deputy Brennan never read the report, but I am quite sure of it now.

Mr. Brennan

I knew perfectly well that that was in the Majority Report.

Dr. Ryan

It was in the Minority Report too.

Mr. Brennan

One thing I know is that the President said that he was going to take us off live stock. How does the Minister's statement conform with that?

Dr. Ryan

I should like to see the statement of the President quoted.

Mr. Brennan

It was quoted all over the country.

Dr. Ryan

That does not make any difference.

Mr. Brennan

The Minister for Defence will tell you all about it. He also said that he was going to get us off live stock.

Dr. Ryan

It is a pity that some Deputies do not know that lunch is going on and give me a chance to proceed.

Mr. Belton

It is a pity the Front Bench do not know something about agriculture.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is a pity some Deputies do not know the rules of order.

Dr. Ryan

I want to follow the reasoning of Deputy O'Sullivan, because his was the most able contribution to this debate. I pay him that tribute. He said we were embarking on a policy of growing more grain which would lead to the production of more live stock and, at the same time, that we were killing the market for live stock. We set out on this policy in this way: We were importing things such as maize, wheat and flour. We say: "There are things we can at least give our own farmers a market for and, what is more, we can make such regulations as will give our farmers a good market for them. We can fix the price of wheat at any price we think the farmers should get." We cannot do that when we have an exportable surplus. That is how we started on the problem. We say: "Let us grow all the feeding stuffs for which we have a market." Why should we be supporting farmers in Minnesota and the Argentine when we have our own farmers to do it? We can grow the quantity of grain which we have been importing. If we only grow the amount we have been importing, I presume we will not increase our live stock; because, if we did increase our live stock, we would have to grow more grain than we have been importing. That may be disputed. It does not matter very much to the argument, however. Suppose we did go beyond the amount of grain required to replace the imports, and we did increase live stock, then we would be up against the question of marketing. Whatever market we get, whether the British market or the Continental market or the home market, what we produce does not matter very much, as our production is a very small proportion of the world production. If we produce 20 per cent. more mutton than we have been producing; 50 per cent. more bacon, or 50 per cent. more cattle as a result of this policy, it makes very little difference in the world supplies. If we put the produce into England, France or Belgium, and if we put in 5 or 10 per cent. more, we will not influence the price, if we have a foreign market at all. At any rate, whatever success we may have with regard to foreign marketing, we are not going to make a difference anywhere by having a little more cattle, pigs or sheep. The question of marketing is a different problem. I want to make it clear that we, at least, by increasing tillage, and as a result increasing our live stock output, are not making matters any worse as a result of that policy alone. Now take the marketing. The home market, of course, is not insignificant. For instance, if you take bacon, mutton, poultry, and all the milk products, it consumes well over 50 per cent. of our output. As a matter of fact, in bacon it goes up to 85 or 90 per cent.

Mr. Dillon

The maximum amount?

Dr. Ryan

The average output for the last ten years will take that. We will consume about 1,000,000 pigs on the home market and the average output, I think, is not more than 1,200,000. I am only quoting these figures from memory.

Mr. Dillon

Over how many years?

Dr. Ryan

The average over ten years. I say the home market is not insignificant. However, we require foreign markets and that is a separate problem. We admit that we require foreign markets because we believe that we will always require to import certain things if we are to have a high standard of living. Some people want tea; some want coffee and some silks, etc. Then we want steel and other things, and we must export something to pay for them. For that reason alone, we must export something, and the easiest thing appears to be to export agricultural produce. That will be a benefit to the producers if they get good foreign markets. We require foreign markets and we hope to get them. As to the economic war, I have already dealt with that.

Mr. Dillon

What?

Dr. Ryan

If you like I shall go on for another half hour.

Mr. Dillon

I want to hear about the foreign markets.

Dr. Ryan

The Deputy was not in the House when I was dealing with that. I say this, however, that whatever Deputies opposite may think about the British market, or whatever encouragement they may wish to give to the British Government on this question, I do not consider the British market worth £5,000,000 per year as a free gift to Great Britain. The proposition of Cumann na nGaedheal and Centre Party Deputies, whatever they may think about it themselves, amounts to this "Settle this question, pay over the £5,000,000 per year; and get us our market back."

A Deputy

We never said any such thing.

Mr. Dillon

Nonsense.

Dr. Ryan

There has been only one cry in this House from Deputies opposite for the last ten months, "Give us back our market". The Centre Party put up a policy at the last election. Deputy Belton claimed to have started it and then they put him out. They said they were going to come in here with the balance of power and rule this Dáil. Just imagine what the Dáil and the country would be like if they had the balance of power! What policy have they? I never heard a single word of policy from them on anything since the last election except, "Give us back our market". They never contributed an idea on any subject that arose. God help this country if the Centre Party had the balance of power. Deputy Belton did well to leave that Party.

Mr. Dillon

May I ask the Minister when we are going to get the foreign markets?

Dr. Ryan

I am coming to that. I have spoken quite a lot on the foreign markets.

Mr. Dillon

You cannot talk too long on it. We are longing to hear it.

Dr. Ryan

I spoke about it when Deputy Dillon was having his lunch. I say the British market is not worth £5,000,000 per year.

Mr. Dillon

What is it worth?

Dr. Ryan

What do you want us to do—to surrender?

Mr. Belton

We do not want you to surrender.

Dr. Ryan

The Cumann na nGaedheal Party and the Centre Party claim that the Executive Council were entirely responsible for the economic war and the British Government had no responsibility whatever. They stated that.

Mr. Dillon

Who stated it?

Dr. Ryan

Every member of the Centre Party and of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party. They said that we forced the economic war; that we fired the first shot; that we acted dishonestly; that we are absolutely responsible for the economic war; and that Great Britain had no responsibility.

Mr. Brennan

Do not put in the latter part of it.

Dr. Ryan

They said that we were absolutely responsible. How could Britain be responsible then? The Cumann na nGaedheal Party cannot have it both ways.

Mr. Brennan

There must be two parties to a dispute.

Dr. Ryan

Yes, except this one. The two parties to this dispute are the Government of the Irish Free State and the Opposition, who stand so much behind Great Britain.

Mr. Dillon

We are still waiting to hear about the foreign markets.

Dr. Ryan

Yes, on Tuesday next.

Mr. Dillon

Damn yesterday, damn to-morrow, but never damn to-day.

Dr. Ryan

I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again on Tuesday, 13th June, at 3 p.m.

The Dáil adjourned at 2 p.m. until Tuesday, 13th June, at 3 p.m.