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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 12 Jul 1933

Vol. 48 No. 17

Dáil Eireann Loans and Funds Bill, 1933—Report.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be received for Final Consideration."

I move:—

In page 3, sub-section 4 (1), line 40, to delete the word "March" and substitute the word "August."

The object of this amendment is to define the time in which an application may be made for redemption. It is necessary because many bondholders have changed their addresses since the external loans were launched, and it would be impossible, except at enormous expense, to ensure that all persons concerned could be approached as individual subscribers. Many will never hear of the intention to redeem those loans except indirectly; it will take time before the news gets generally circulated. The reason for fixing a limit of time is that it is desirable some limit should be fixed for handing in applications; otherwise there would be a continuing liability on the Exchequer and the House will generally agree that that would not be a desirable position.

Amendment put and agreed to.

Mr. Rice

I desire, by way of correction, to refer to what happened on the Committee Stage of this Bill last week on the question as to the payment of these sums. I used three sentences in their context. The President afterwards intervened, and represented me as suggesting that these moneys were not due and should not be paid. I intervened subsequently to say that that was not my intention. I pointed out, as appears in the Official Report, column 1857, in reply to the President:

"I made it quite clear that I meant it was not payable at the present time as the conditions are not fulfilled."

That was a plain enough indication of what my meaning was. Subsequently the President came into the House and said: "Deputy Rice corrected himself to-day." I should say I did not correct myself. I corrected the President's statement of what I had said. The President continued:

"I stated that he had said the money was not due and he denied that. I said I was prepared to take his correction but I have since got the transcript of his speech. It is a matter of record, but here is what he is reported as having said."

Then the President purports to quote what I said on this matter and undoubtedly the one sentence he did quote, he quoted correctly. He quoted as follows:

"This country, through its Government, now proposes to pay a debt which is not due. That is what he said. He corrected that to-day when I charged him with it. Other Deputies whom I heard speaking are apparently of a like mind."

That purports to be a quotation of what I said, and a justification of the interpretation put by the President on my remarks. Turning back, however, to the Official Reports I find in column 1836 what I did say was this—and I should like to call the attention of the House to the fact that there are three sentences in my statement, but there is one context dealing with this matter. The one sentence quoted is the middle sentence of the three, and no reference whatever is made by the President to the others, namely the first or third. Of course, if you take the sentence out of its context it can bear an entirely different meaning from what was intended to be conveyed. I leave to the judgment of the House whether my statement, as to what I intended to convey is accurate, or whether the President's interpretation was accurate. Here is what I said:—

"At the present time every country in the world that owes debts is trying by every honourable means to postpone payment owing to the financial conditions. This country, through its Government, now proposes to pay a debt which is not due."

That is the sentence quoted by the President. I went on:—

"This debt is not due because the condition of affairs under which these bonds are payable has not arisen."

Of course, this debate showed perfectly well, apart from the sentences I have quoted, what I was referring to, that the condition on which the bonds are repayable had not been fulfilled, and no person hearing these three sentences could be under any possible misapprehension as to what they meant.

If it is not out of order I would like to say that I had no opportunity of making this correction until to-day, because the transcript was not available to me as it was to the President on the date in question. In these circumstances it would be very well if we could revert back to the old practice of having the Official Reports available two days after publication. If that were done, I should not have been compelled to remain silent with this charge hanging over me for the past six days.

No discrimination whatever is made with regard to the script of Deputies' speeches.

Mr. Rice

I hope I did not convey that there was. I was only referring to what I think is the older and better practice.

The Deputy said the script was available to the President on the following day, or some such day as that. What I thought he meant was the script was available to the President and not to the Deputy himself. I think, in fairness to the officers of the House, it is necessary to say that no discrimination is made by the officers as to whom scripts should be available.

Mr. Rice

I am not making any imputation whatever upon officers of the House. All I say is that if I wanted to correct the statement of another Deputy I would not get the transcript to do so from the office, and quite rightly so, because it appears to me that if such a system prevailed the office would be crowded out with work. I only mentioned this matter as an argument for the earlier publication of the debates.

The Deputy is now four years in the House, and the fact that he was until to-day unaware of the fact that he could get a transcript of his own speech shows the interest he has taken in these matters.

Mr. Rice

I was aware I could see a transcript of my own speech, but not of another person's speech. It was not the case here of the President looking for a transcript of his own speech. It is quite a different matter to ask for another Deputy's speech for the purpose of contradicting something that appeared in that speech.

I want to refer to column 1973 of the Official Reports, to a passage in which I am misrepresented. I really do not bother about that, but it is rather a matter of historical interest. What I did say was:—

"That is not documentary evidence.

Mr. MacEntee: There are many other documents. That is one, at any rate which should be before the mind of the Deputy."

Then I am made to say:—

"On two occasions when he was proposed for office by the Dáil he refused it."

What I did say was:—

"On two occasions when it was proposed to create such an office the Dáil refused it."

I should like that correction to be entered in the Official Reports. Everybody who heard what I said knows that the report as given here does not properly represent me.

Question put and agreed to.
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