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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 9 Aug 1933

Vol. 49 No. 13

In Committee on Finance. - Vote 73—Repayment of Dáil Eireann External Loans.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £12,000 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh Márta, 1934, alos caiteachais i dtaobh Iasachtaí Coigríche Dháil Eireann d'Aisíoc (Achtanna Iasachtaí agus Cistí Dháil Eireann, 1924 agus 1933).

That a sum not exceeding £12,000 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1934, for expenditure in connection with the Repayment of the Dáil Eireann External Loans (Dáil Eireann Loans and Funds Acts, 1924 and 1933).

The Minister has not given us much indication as to what the money is for. It has been stated here in previous debates on the Dáil Eireann Loans Bill that in America there is no difficulty whatever about the lists. The lists are there with the amounts subscribed by the various people. We have several offices in America. We have the Minister's office with staff, in Washington, a Consular office in New York, with staff, and other offices now, I think, in San Francisco, Chicago and Boston. I should like to know what this is for, and I think the Minister should have given us some information. During the debates on the Bill there was a suggestion in that usual inexplicit form that we associate with Presidential statements, which seemed to suggest that one of the points in bringing in the Bill at this time was that the official receivers would still be available. I raised points here in the debates and I stated that, to the best of my information, these official receivers appointed under the American court had been the recipients of a sum of money calculated on a percentage of the total amount of money to be paid. Again, I pointed out that amongst the men who had been employed in relation to these Dáil bonds a man called Frank P. Walsh got enormous sums of money from this Government. As a matter of fact, towards the end of January, 1922, the late Deputy Harry Boland, who was not contaminated in any way by being pro-Treaty, had approached the previous Government and asked that the services of that gentleman be dispensed with.

Is this in order?

No, it is not. We can only discuss on this Estimate the administration of this Vote. The Deputy seems to be going very far back.

What I want to come to is this: During the debate on the Bill an enormous number of questions were addressed to the President. He worked himself up into a state of heat and used that state of heat for the purpose of concealing information from this House. One of the questions I wanted answered was whether Mr. Frank P. Walsh would have anything to do with this distribution of money, because, if he had, all our experience, as was testified by the late Deputy Harry Boland in 1922, was that this man's charges were appallingly exorbitant. If there is a proposal that a portion of this £12,000 shall go to subsidise this very expensive gentleman I think the people of the country will have every reason to object. If that man ever gave any services to this country he has been paid a thousand-fold more than he ever earned.

Surely the Deputy is merely using this speech to make an inexcusable attack on a private individual who is not even a citizen of the State.

The Minister could have avoided this if he had given us information as to what this money is to be used for.

Could not the Deputy, on the basis of that reasoning, pick out any citizen, A, B, C or D and say that if any moneys were to be paid to him it was a gross outrage on the citizens of the State? This gentleman is picked out and on the basis of that he could attack people indiscriminately.

On the basis of that one could not attack people indiscriminately because I am referring to a man who has been consistently employed by the members of the Government and who, even before this Government came into power, was paid out of moneys that we had been voting. We have to vote moneys to pay that man, first, because there are charges in relation to certain litigation——

The proper time to have raised that was when that money was being voted, not on this occasion when we do not know whether he will get any money or not.

If I have an assurance that he will not get the money I will be satisfied. I raised the point previously and got no answer. As far as one can take any indication from the President's speech one would infer that he is employed and will be paid.

If it will satisfy the Deputy I can assure him that the person to whom he is referring will not be employed.

I am glad the Government are learning that they must have some sense of shame in their dealings. Long after the Provisional Government came into existence they were warned against this man and that they would be no longer justified in employing him and I could give testimony to-day to that effect.

The Minister has said that this particular individual is not being employed.

And I was simply expressing my gratification.

In a negative fashion.

No, in a most positive fashion. Again there was a sort of suggestion in the President's speech that official regulations should be observed in this matter, that there was 2,500,000 dollars to be distributed and that they would receive a percentage on that total sum. There is now to be distributed a much larger sum. There was originally a sum of 6,000,000 dollars, nearly 2,500,000 of that has been distributed, leaving 3,500,000 plus another quarter of that sum. If they were to be employed on the same terms these men would get a percentage that they already got in connection with the previous sums, and the Irish people would have to pay that as a result of a Bill recently passed by the Government. I think the House ought to be told what this £12,000 is required for. We have offices and staffs in the United States. The President said that the lists were complete. We were told that there were full lists, and that the names of the assignees, whether they came by the assignment honestly or dishonestly were in our possession and were available. There is a full list of the contributors, and of the value of the bonds transferred whether they were transferred willingly or whether they were transferred by contributors who had the wool pulled over their eyes. Now we are blandly and blindly invited to vote £12,000 for the repayment of this £1,500,000. The Minister gives no indication why this sum should be voted. There is a staff permanently employed, and permanently paid, and there is no ground that I can see for the voting of this money, unless it is for postage stamps to be put on envelopes that have to be sent out. I think we should not be asked to agree to this Vote unless we are told what the money is for. The Minister gave no information except to move that this £12,000 be voted. I propose to sit down now in order to give the Minister an opportunity of telling us what this money is for.

I hope the Minister is not going to turn a deaf ear to that request. We are told this money is for the salary, wages and expenses of staff, office accommodation, stationery and printing, advertising, postage, etc. I do not really know what this £12,000 is for.

No, nor anybody else. I sat down in order to let the Minister give the information that the House and the country are entitled to get.

The information is on the face of the Estimate.

It is not on the face of the Estimate. If one is to take any opinion from that it would be that the Minister completely misled the House in the information he gave it in connection with the previous Bill. Although we might be justified by our previous experience in doing so, I do not want to accept that view of the Minister's conduct. There is to be a sum of £12,000 voted here for paying back money in America. There seems to be no need for incurring such expense. There has to be no advertising done. We were told everybody in America had full knowledge of it. We were told that there are full lists of the people available and the amount they contributed. All the Government has got to do is to empower their officials to take steps for the repayment of the money. But the fact is the Government wants this £12,000 as they wanted the £1,500,000. It is a large sum of money to come out of the pockets of the people.

This matter has been decided. A Bill has already passed the House and a certain decision has been come to. We cannot go back now and reopen that question.

If the Government is not going to tell us what this £12,000 is for we have a right to make some case against it. What has the Minister done? He told the House nothing and he told the country nothing. He gets up consistently and tries to prevent any speculation as to what the money is really for in case we should hit upon the real facts. We know the whole thing is a corrupt deal. It is an attempt to subsidise a private industry of a member of the Government.

The Deputy has alleged that this is a corrupt deal on the part of the Government. Is that expression in order? Is it in order to charge the Government with corruption or to charge any member of the Government with corruption or any member of this House?

I think it is an expression that ought not to be used by any Deputy, either against the Government itself or any individual Deputy.

I quite agree. I do not take any pleasure in attributing corruption to the Government of this State.

We already had a debate on corruption.

It is a charge that should not be made against any Government. But what is the reason of the silence of the Government in connection with this matter? Why is the Minister afraid of having any relation in this matter dragged out?

On a point of procedure may I ask this: If it is considered in order for Deputy Fitzgerald to make such allusions as he is making, will it be in order for Deputies on this side of the House to follow and to construe the action of the previous Executive Council——

Order. The Chair will never be anxious to cross bridges until it meets them. When Deputy Briscoe attempts what he suggests the Chair will deal with it.

Might I put it this way? May I ask the Minister for Finance to assure us, on this side of the House, that Deputies whom we can mention by name for the purpose of bringing their names in here, and for the purpose of slinging mud, will not get any of this money, on the same grounds that Deputy Fitzgerald is touching on here? I would like an assurance, for instance, that none of this money should go to Deputy Desmond Fitzgerald's brother.

Let us be clear about this. Deputy Desmond Fitzgerald spoke of a certain individual who is not in this State at this date and the Chair endeavoured to prevent him from referring to that individual in particular, or referring to any citizen either of this State or any other State, because on the face of that reasoning one could attack almost anybody in a negative fashion.

One might say "so long as you do not give any of this money to citizen ‘A' who is the biggest scoundrel unhung, you do right." On the basis of that reason one could attack anybody, so the Chair ruled that out. I do not intend to let Deputy Briscoe reintroduce what I would not allow Deputy Fitzgerald to refer to.

An Ceann Comhairle resumed the Chair.

Deputies on the other side seem to fear that there is a lack of precedent for certain of the things I have said here. The trouble is that there is a lack of precedent for introducing an Estimate into this House and refusing to give any information as to what it is about. We asked for information which should not be in the least difficult to supply. The Government has estimated that for certain purposes in connection with the repayment of this money £12,000 should be voted. It might be quite all right to vote that money, but certainly it is not right to vote it unless you know what it is being voted for. We are told nothing about it.

Mr. MacEntee rose.

Hear, hear! At last we are going to hear it.

Possibly the trouble arises because Deputy Fitzgerald, and Deputy MacDermot whom I hear saying "Hear, hear," are unable to read, or possibly have not a copy of the Estimate.

Very well, would they read the Estimate? It is as follows: "Estimate of the amount required in the year ending 31st March, 1934, for Expenditure in connection with the repayment of the Dáil Eireann External Loans." In the details of the Estimate it is stated "For salaries, wages and expenses of staff, office accommodation, stationery and printing, advertising, postage, etc." That is what the moneys are for.

Where and when?

Here and elsewhere and within the next 12 months we hope.

If we cannot get information we can at least have speculation. That is what has been happening about this whole fund from the beginning, speculation of a very odorous and a very malodorous type.

Do not talk of speculation. Remember the Great Southern shares.

Certainly. I never had any. I will let the Minister wander on. Given a little bit of a chance he will put his feet as deeply into it as a man can. Has the Minister anything further to say?

Do not talk too much about speculation.

I am going to speak of speculation, and the very odious type of speculation that is at the bottom of all this £12,000, and the other bigger sums we have voted. The Minister is first of all silent about it. It is not a bad way to be when you have been indulging in a bad type of speculation. Then when he is roused into some sort of speech he says that if Deputies could only read they would find the explanation on the face of the Estimate. An explanation of this type is on the face of every Estimate presented to the House. If that is an explanation, then we should never have Estimates debated. There is always the same type of explanation as we have here, and yet it is, or at least it was, the habit of Ministers to explain; and particularly it was the habit of Ministers to answer such questions as: "Who are going to be the recipients of the money that is going to be expended on staff? Where is going to be the new office accommodation for which part of this money is being voted?" Apparently it is new office accommodation not previously met by any Vote of this House; otherwise why this Vote? We should be told what amount of this money is going to be allocated to postage, and for what purpose. All we get is a mere request for a sum of £12,000, with the ordinary printed statement that it is required for salaries, wages and expenses of staff, office accommodation, stationery and printing, advertising, postage, etc. Does the "etc.," for instance, cover any legal expenses? Does it cover, say the expenses of any finance house or of any bank? Does the much debated and in this connection notorious Frank P. Walsh get any part of this money as he got of the previous moneys? Is there an objection coming to the use of that gentleman's name? Is there any part of this money going to the much debated and in this connection notorious Frank P. Walsh?

If the Chair does not object I cannot.

People who are not in a position to defend themselves against charges made in this House——

A Deputy

There is no charge.

Some Deputy asserts that no charge has been made. I do not think that the word "notorious" should be applied to a citizen of any country who is not in a position to defend himself against speeches made under privilege in this House.

I have not said anything except that the man is notorious in this connection. I refrained from detailing why he is notorious, but I am prepared to go into the details, and I am even prepared to bring in the testimony of people who do not now regard the man as notorious but had some other time a different view. Is there an American lawyer called Frank P. Walsh getting any part of this £12,000?

Does the Deputy want an answer?

No. Not at all.

He does not, of course.

I would ask for an assurance that other people are not going to get part of this money and to be allowed to name them.

That would be difficult, and there is clearly a relevance between Frank P. Walsh and this money which there is not between it and the other people whom the Minister has in his mind.

I would be able to show that.

Then let us have a debate, instead of the mute and glorious attitude which the Minister for Finance adopted to-night. What is the money for? Is this the full tot of all that is going to be required in connection with this very bad type of speculation? To-day, in answer to a question of mine, it emerged that part of the duties of the Minister for Lands and Fisheries on the trip across the Atlantic was in connection with this money, and his expenses are borne on another Vote. I do not suppose they are being met out of this money, and yet they may be for all we know. It is certainly a wise procedure on the part of the Government to scatter this particular business through a number of Votes and not have the whole matter presented to the public in one. It is bad enough to have the revelations that there were as to the vast amount of the taxpayers' money which was being given away in this year in which we are supposed to have been so economically hard up, in order to provide £100,000 for a paper which is on its last legs——

There is on the Statute Book an Act of the Oireachtas authorising the payment of those Dáil Bonds, and Acts of the Oireachtas may not be animadverted upon in this House.

I am not saying anything about it, sir, except that the Act was passed. I said it was bad enough to have that sum of money voted in the House. It is worse to have the revelation which emerged to-day in answer to a question of mine that the Minister for Lands and Fisheries was supposed to be gone on business relating to the State—

On that point, the President made it quite clear——

That is not a point of order. I object.

He made it quite clear that the Minister for Lands and Fisheries——

Is this being risen to as a point of order?

——had gone to the United States in connection with the repayment of the Dáil bonds.

I object to interruptions of this kind. I do not know why there should be this sudden burst into speech on the part of the Minister. The Minister should be less delicate about these matters. If you have a kept paper, announce it and do not be ashamed of having it announced to you if you do not say it yourself. In relation to this newspaper kept in this particular way we had the revelation to-day that the Minister——

Whether it is a kept paper or not, it is not under this Vote.

That is what we are attempting to find out. It is a Vote in connection with the Dáil Eireann External Loan. It is quite clear that some portion of the Dáil Eireann External Loan is going to a particular newspaper. It was not merely admitted in the House. It was put forward as an advantage and as a reason for voting the money——

The Deputy has been told that there is an Act of the Oireachtas by virtue of which this loan is being repaid and that he cannot animadvert on that Act. Neither is a discussion on any paper, nor any discussion as to who will or will not receive these bonds, in order.

Might I put it to you, that it is in order to ask if any portion of the money that is being voted includes any fraction of the bonds which goes to the Irish Press? We have not been told it does not.

Can the Deputy not read or has he taken the trouble to read?

I can. I am a native English speaker. I do not know whether the Minister can say that. I did not get any information which leads me to the conclusion that part of this money is not going to help to repay some portion of the Dáil External Loan to the Irish Press.

The Deputy has been told that the destination of these bonds and references to the Irish Press or any other paper are not in order. If the supposition were that speeches of that kind were in order, he could range over any subject from here to Timbuctoo.

I have not raised the question of the Dáil bonds at all. I am raising what is in this Estimate —the repayment of the Dáil Eireann External Loans. Some portion of the loan we were told was going to the Irish Press. Deputy Fitzgerald has raised the point that in the United States of America we have got extra office accommodation recently. We have got it on foot of a confidential report which is not disclosed to the House. Is any part of the new office accommodation, which we have been told was recommended by the first missionary to the United States of the Fianna Fáil Government, required for the purpose of making forward arrangements in relation to the formal repayment of this fraction of the Dáil Eireann Loan to which I have referred or have we sufficient office accommodation in the United States ordinarily for our purposes? If so, can it be said that there is such a rush of business in this office that the staff cannot attend to the little bit of extra business involved in the repayment of the loan? Have they to get extra fees for overtime? It seems ludicrous to have to put the question. The Minister knows there was no necessity for extra office accommodation as far as the ordinary work was concerned. It has to be presumed some portion of it was intended, when the office was established, for this purpose. Why segregate into a new vote, the office accommodation for which we have already paid, unless—after the stocktaking argument of the other night anything is possible—there is going to be the contention that these people are so overworked in the American office that they cannot pass through these bonds? £12,000 even, allowing that there is going to be some expenditure by way of postage, is not a lot but £35,000 seemed to be a very big sum for people who were so hard pressed for money that they had to take a course which was this morning declared to be illegal in relation to civil servants, and a course which was only going to bring them in £35,000 in the year. The money that was so badly wanted when the Minister was forced to that particular resort is now going to be spent——

Are we to discuss what happened in the courts this morning?

We can on the adjournment debate.

On this Vote?

I am only making a passing reference to it. I hope to refer to the whole affidavit on the adjournment. The Minister's affidavit was not entirely believed this morning. It will be a welcome addition to the adjournment items. It does not enter into this—the Minister is quite right in that—except to enable me to call attention to this fact, that we are spending here casually and without any occasion that I can see, £12,000, although the State was in such a parlous condition that it had to resort to certain dubious methods to collect from a certain class of servants in the State £35,000. It is better to have a decent confession about all this. What is it for? What game is on about this? What is it for? Is it possible that the ordinary civil servants who are in the offices in America are not trusted? I do not mean that they are not trustworthy, but are they not to be trusted by the present Ministry to pass on this money? Are the Ministry afraid that these people might report back, that they might write minutes, that there might be files accumulating about all these things which somebody as Minister for Finance hereafter would quote? Has there to be a special staff engaged for this dubious work? Is that what it is for? That is my speculation on this matter. That is, I believe, what has happened, that the Minister has something to hide that he does not want to remain on his files, something that he wants to be over when the temporary staff are discontinued. We have got to get some explanation and that explanation is as good as anything that the Minister can give.

As regards this expenditure of £12,000 I should like to have some further information from the Minister as to whether it means an addition to the present staff. If my memory serves me right some few years back the Minister himself thought very much of the word "economy" and no less a personage than the present Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister, Deputy Flinn, stated on many occasions that if he had an opportunity of having a thorough examination of the then existing staffs in a very short time he would effect economies to the extent of a million or two. If that were the case, then I think it is only natural to assume that since there has been no appreciable reduction in the staff the present staff should be sufficient to carry out whatever work is necessary in connection with the repayment of this Dáil Eireann Loan. It is rather extraordinary that in the matter of introducing legislation it should be absolutely necessary to incur additional expenditure in putting such, legislation into operation. As far as I am personally concerned I have absolutely no interest in this question of the Dáil Eireann Loan. I was not a Republican in those days—just an old Nationalist of the Constitutional type—and I am not very much concerned regarding the repayment of this loan. Of course we have to repay it. It is a debt of honour and, of course, honour is a very dear subject with the Government at the moment; but I am concerned with what I consider any unnecessary expenditure, and, in my humble opinion, there is absolutely no necessity for this vote of £12,000. It may appear a small sum but I think that in the present state of depression existing all over the country it is the absolute duty of the Government to save every halfpenny that they can save. As far as I am personally concerned, I am not satisfied that this Vote is necessary and I think that the Minister, when reconsidering this question, should take into consideration his present staff and try to find amongst the officers at his disposal sufficient men who have the ability to carry out the work incidental to these Dáil Eireann Loans.

I object to the provision of £12,000 for the service indicated in this Estimate, because I consider the purpose, or a part of the purpose, for which that money is going to be used, is one which should receive no facilities from this House at all. I listened with care to the discussion that accompanied the passing of a Bill that was passed through this House recently which dealt with the repayment of certain bonds which were mainly held in America, and I understand that, as a result of that Act of Parliament, this £12,000 will be partially used for the transfer of public funds voted by this House to members of this House, albeit they are acting in a trustee capacity. As I understand it, a number of bondholders in America have assigned their interests in these bonds to President de Valera, President de Valera having given an undertaking to stand seized of the proceeds in trust for these bondholders and to invest these moneys in the Irish Press. I have no doubt that, according to his lights, President de Valera entered into that contract without any intention of doing anything dishonest, but, equally, I have no doubt that it is not in the interest of rectitude in public life in this country that the head of an Irish Government could find himself in a position wherein a large part of public funds which have been voted——

The Deputy might not have heard me state already that, by an Act of this Oireachtas, those bonds must be paid and that it is not in order to animadvert on any Act of this Oireachtas in a debate on an Estimate. The destination of those bonds is not a matter that can arise on this Vote, which is purely for administrative purposes.

With all due respect, sir, I submit that the amount of this Vote must, surely, be profoundly affected by the number of persons who are to be paid. Let us assume that the bondholders all assigned their bonds to one individual. In such a case, £12,000 would be a large sum. If, on the other hand, the bonds were in a denomination of 6d. and there were 80,000 bondholders, the sum of £12,000 would seem to be inadequate. It seems to me, with great respect, to be a difficult matter to discuss the adequacy of this investment unless we consider the probable number of assignees or bondholders. I think I am right and, to go further, that I am entitled to submit to this House a valid reason for refusing this accommodation to the Government. I submit, with great respect, that I am entitled to say that, since the purpose of this is to partially convey certain funds to a certain corporation or group, it is desirable that this House should withhold from the Government any facility they can withhold in order to check that. I have proceeded along those lines merely to draw the attention of the House to those aspects of this question. I cannot possibly discuss the adequacy of the Vote unless I can discuss the number of the assignees. With all respect, I submit, that that is profoundly relevant. In this particular case, we have a large part of a fund which would normally be held by 40,000 or 50,000 people assigned to one individual who holds an honourable and responsible position in this State. The purpose of this is to transfer £100,000 of public money to one individual. I submit, with all respect, that I am entitled to say that this House should decline to provide money for such a purpose. It is not a proper purpose for which this House should provide money.

I am quite sure that it is not intentional on the Deputy's part, but this is the second occasion to-day on which there seems to be a deliberate attempt to override a ruling of the Chair. To the person who occupies the Chair that may be a matter of small concern, but to the procedure and good conduct of the House it may matter much. The Deputy who has been speaking has referred to the position occupied by one holder of certain of these bonds. That matter was fully dealt with on the Second, the Committee, the Report and Fifth Stages of a recent measure. This Oireachtas has decided that those bonds must be paid, and the question of ownership of these bonds, by any person whomsoever, is not in order in this discussion.

I bow to your ruling, sir, on that aspect of the situation, and will not proceed any further along those lines. I think, however, that it would have been well if the Government had communicated to us the number of bondholders whom they would be called upon to deal with. I think it would have been well that the Minister responsible for this Estimate should have informed us of the approximate figures of the staff he required and where he proposed to employ it. I do not think it would have been unreasonable to expect a statement from the Minister as to what office accommodation he anticipated would be necessary. Without those particulars, it is quite impossible for this House to form a reasonable view of the adequacy of this Estimate or otherwise. Quite apart from the adequacy of this Estimate or otherwise, I am quite clear that it is an Estimate which the House should not accept.

During the course of his speech on this Estimate, Deputy McGilligan used the words "odious,""malodorous,""contemptible,""corrupt" and "scandalous." He used those adjectives in relation to a proposal already adopted by this House, and which it is necessary to implement by this Estimate, the effect of which is that we shall repay to citizens of the United States money which was loaned by those citizens some years ago to the Government of this country. The money was loaned when the Black-and-Tans were trampling on this country and when we were hard pressed; when Deputy Dillon was still worrying about the Parnell Split and what happened the Paris funds; when Deputy Coburn was still weeping over the grave of the Irish Party—

Deputy Coburn never murdered anybody.

——when Deputy Fitzgerald was writing bad poetry and Deputy McGilligan, lost in obscurity, could not contemplate the day when he would be holding the dignified position of minority representative of the National University, money was loaned then and pledges were given by the leaders of this country that it would be repaid as soon as possible. This Estimate is necessary to enable these pledges to be redeemed and those Deputies who would have us break our bond and drag this country's name in the mire and disgrace us before those citizens of America who helped us when we most needed help, would have us do that because some part of this money which will be repaid to those to whom it is legally due may reach the pockets of those who are their political opponents. We have had many contemptible scenes in this Dáil from time to time, but the scenes that took place here when the Bill which preceded this Estimate was under discussion were the most contemptible of all. I was not here, but I read of those scenes in the Press and the references made from the opposite benches to the servant girls in America and the poor people out there who subscribed their cents and dollars to this loan.

References to Second Reading speeches made on a Bill that is now law are not in order.

On a point of order, I want to point out that the only member of the House who made any reference to the servant girls in America was the President.

The phrase is historical. It was often used in a somewhat similar connection by the historical predecessors of the Deputy and his Party.

The Minister has stated that he read in the Press of the scenes and the scandalous references that were made to the servant girls in America. The only reference that was made to them here was by the President. Nobody else referred to them.

The fact, however, is that this Estimate is required in order to implement the decision of the Dáil that this country is going to stand over its pledges and over its word which it gave to those citizens of America who helped us when we wanted help and, in accordance with the undertaking which was given them, the interest that has accrued on the money they loaned with interest accrued is going to be repaid to those to whom it is legally due, those to whom the subscribers want it to be repaid.

Question!

Who is questioning it?

What right has the Deputy to question it?

The President is getting £100,000 of this.

From whom did he get it?

Is there £100,000 of this going to the Irish Press?

Is it the Deputy's contention that the people who own those bonds have no right to do what they like with them?

Will the Minister answer the question?

The Minister will not answer a question which the Deputy had no right to ask and which the Minister has not the right to deal with.

Is not £100,000 of this going to the Irish Press?

The Deputy is not entitled to raise such matters on this Estimate.

This Estimate is necessary to enable the decision of the Dáil to be implemented. Deputies who would have us dishonour our bond will vote against it—Deputies who would prefer to see that the money would not be repaid to those to whom it is legally due because those people happen to be opponents of theirs.

On a point of order. When I was speaking, the Ceann Comhairle instructed me to depart from the purpose which was to be served by this Estimate: that I was not to discuss the repayment of this money or those to whom the money was to go. The Chair ruled very clearly to that effect. The Minister has now stated, in the course of his speech, that this Estimate is required in order to repay money to people to whom it is legally due. At your instance, a Chinn Comhairle, I departed from the discussion of that question, and with great respect, if the Minister is going to deal with it, then I should be allowed to deal with it too.

The Deputy went into details as to who held those bonds. The Chair ruled that that was not in order, and the Chair still holds that opinion.

I desired to refer to the persons to whom payment would be made, and for whom this Estimate is before the House. The Chair ruled that that was not in order, and I departed from it. The Minister now states, in the course of his speech, that the purpose of the Estimate is to repay the persons to whom the money is legally and morally due.

The Chair did not rule that it was out of order to discuss the purpose of the Estimate, but the Chair definitely ruled that the mention of certain bondholders—how they got those bonds and where they had got them—was out of order.

On a point of order, and bearing on the line of the Minister's argument, will it be in order to discuss the amount of public money spent by the Minister at one time in denying the right of the Free State Government to repay those moneys to the American subscribers?

It would not be in order.

And is the Minister then in order in the line of speech he is making on this Estimate?

The Minister has been informed that his line of argument was not in order.

I understood you to say, a Chinn Comhairle, that as the Bill was passed through this House some time ago and agreed to by the Oireachtas that it must not be animadverted upon and must not be referred back to. The Minister is discussing it completely. Deputy McGilligan had to depart from the course that he was pursuing and so had Deputy Dillon. It certainly was not apparent to me that they were perfectly free to continue in the course they were pursuing provided they did not mention individual bondholders.

I have no desire to traverse the decision of the Chair in any way, and I do not think I am doing so. I have not yet been ruled out of order as often as the Deputy was in the course of his remarks.

The money is required to implement the decision of the Dáil.

How do we know that? How do we know that even £2,000 is required?

I am telling the Deputy. The Dáil has put into our hands responsibility for matters of administration of this kind, and the Dáil did that after the people had decided that they preferred to have these matters in our hands than in the hands of the Deputies opposite.

Then why present us with an Estimate at all?

It is one of the defects of the Parliamentary system that it has to be done. I am rather astonished that the Deputies opposite and their new allies, the Centre Party, who are out to revise the Parliamentary system and to abolish all this waste of time, all this talk and fruitless discussion, should come in here protesting because there is not enough discussion in relation to matters of this kind. Surely, under the new order the dictator will come before whatever body is permitted to exist and fling an Estimate before it and let it take it or leave it.

On a point of order. Is it right for the Minister for Industry and Commerce to point to the Minister for Finance as a dictator, and describe him in the fashion he did?

I am trying to get the Deputies opposite on to some consistent line. In so far as there are any grounds for criticism of the Parliamentary system, criticism arising out of unnecessary talk, waste of time and generally fruitless discussions, the Deputies opposite have made a very good case for its abolition.

The House is asked to vote a sum of £12,000 for a definite purpose. Included in the list of items dealing with this we find "salaries, wages and expenses of staff, office accommodation, stationery and printing, advertising, postage, etc." How much is there to be for each, and how many are going to be employed? Surely there must have been some tot made in the Department of Finance or was the method adopted in connection with this simply to take a series of figures from £1 to £50,000 and, like some people who pick out winners, take a pin and stick it in one of the numbers and say "That is the sum I want." However much the Minister may claim that as his method, I certainly think that class of computation is not adopted in any Department of State. The Department of Finance put up some figures in respect of certain officials to be employed. Possibly they put up persons' names and the sums they were to be paid, and gave the personnel of the whole establishment. Why is that kept from the House? What is the meaning of it? This is not the money of the Ministry. It is not the money of their supporters. It is the money of the people of this State, all the people. Each and everyone, according to whatever the taxation of the country is, will pay a quota. Let us have less talk about dictators from incompetents. What is the meaning of bringing an estimate before the Dáil at all? What purpose does it serve? Surely the Ministry knows someone who will get some of the £12,000. If the gentleman whose name was mentioned is not to be employed in that capacity, as a representative of the State in this matter, who is to be employed? Are Messrs. Corboy to be employed? Why is the Ministry keeping it secret? Are they ashamed of it? Why should they discredit any American firm that is going to be employed, by withholding the name from this House, leaving it to come out subsequently in the United States, that they were so employed? That is not the way to treat the citizens of another country, or the people in whom you have sufficient confidence to employ in order to do work of that sort. In the course of his speech the Minister for Industry and Commerce asked, a short time ago, if we were against the repayment of this money. It was not to-day or yesterday we stated our position with regard to that. As far back as 1922 what was the attitude of himself and others in connection with it, when they put this country to an expenditure of over £100,000 in order that they would get possession of the whole of it, and, having failed to get possession of the whole of it, they then started to get possession of a moiety of it?

I am glad that we have got into a calm atmosphere on this question and that we are going to be businesslike. When dealing with money of this kind we should get away from the war atmosphere that we were threatened with from the other side of the House. We are dealing with money that is going to come out of the taxpayers' purse. I am interested in one item, and I would like to know how it is going to be spent. That is advertising. The Minister might let the House know what advertising is necessary. Is it advertising the names of the bondholders? Is he going to advertise that an office is going to be set up, asking for applications for highly paid jobs? What form will the advertising take? Will it be advertising through an agency or in newspapers, or will it be confined solely to the Irish Press? As a matter of fact, to put it baldly, the advertising might be used as political election literature. It might state how the Fianna Fáil people could save £2,000,000 in taxation and put 84,000 people to work. All that might be given under the heading of advertising.

As a business matter, this should be dealt with more explicitly by the Minister. It is usual to expect that advertising pays. Perhaps the Minister is going to use this in some form of advertising in order to get some political advantage that we know nothing about. I look upon this as an estimate, and an estimate is arrived at after some computation as to the manner in which the money is going to be spent. I think this procedure is wrong. The whole trouble and delay would have been avoided if the Minister had been a little more explicit and told in a businesslike way how the amount was computed and how it was to be spent. It would not have been necessary for so many Deputies to have been out of order if the Minister had taken the House a little more into his confidence.

The Deputy who has just sat down has contributed as much intelligence as any preceding speaker on the opposite benches to this debate. He referred to the item for advertising, which appears in the Estimate, as one service which will have to be provided for. He asked what was the advertising for. The purpose will be to intimate to holders of bonds in America that they must apply before a certain date in September, 1934, or else they will lose whatever right they had to repayment. Did that strike the Deputy before? Did he ever give it much thought?

Why did not the Minister explain it when he was introducing the Estimate? We are as little children sitting here waiting for words of wisdom.

The Deputy is more like a Glaxo baby.

I am glad to see that the Deputy has become as a little child, but not in his first childhood. However, even the Deputy, if he had spent as much time thinking about the Estimate as talking about it, would have realised why it was necessary to advertise in the American newspapers, why it was necessary to advertise in everyone of the States in America and in every city in America in which there is an Irish population. I might say that that means advertising in every State in the Union, because everywhere people subscribed to these bonds when Deputy Coburn and Deputy Dillon would not.

The Minister tried to join the British Army.

Deputy Coburn did not, but he asked other people to join it. In the Great War he was the Duke of Plaza Toro.

The Minister may thank the Nationalists of Dundalk for putting him into his present position and giving him his first start in life. Why go back on his fellow Nationalists in the North whom he deserted?

Come back to the advertising.

It will be necessary, possibly, to provide additional accommodation in America, because there are hundreds of thousands of bondholders to be repaid. It is the intention of the Government, so far as it can humanly ensure it, to see that every one of these bondholders is repaid within a year.

What is the total loan?

The total loan is of the order of £1,250,000, held in small denominations in bonds of ten dollars and upwards. Of those hundreds of thousands of bondholders, I might say that not ten per cent. have assigned their bonds. If this money is required, it is to repay the general mass of the bondholders and for no other purpose whatever. The repayment will be carried out under the direction of a Government staff, by Government servants under the direction of the Minister for Finance, and every payment, no matter to whom it may be made, will be subject to the examination and audit of the Comptroller and Auditor-General.

There will be no question of the destruction of records and no possibility that any record will be destroyed as Deputy McGilligan, who was once a member of the Executive Council, ought to know, because if a record were destroyed, a record upon which a payment was based, the Accounting Officer would be held personally responsible. He certainly will ensure that there will be available for the Comptroller and Auditor-General the fullest evidence to show that the payments were properly and justly made. Of course Deputy McGilligan did not rely merely on his imagination for that point. Deputy McGilligan had past experience to guide him. Deputy McGilligan knows well that in the interregnum in March, 1932, very valuable Government papers were destroyed on the instructions of Deputy McGilligan and his colleagues, when they were members of the Executive Council. It would be very interesting if these files were available for examination.

These files are not relevant to this motion.

They might be if they were here.

If they were available they might be.

They are not here and they are not relevant.

If they were available there are some Deputies who spoke to-night——

The Chair has ruled that they are not relevant.

I have said that these payments would be made through the permanent officials of the State, and no gentleman such as the gentleman whose name has been mentioned here to-night will be employed in the repayment of these moneys — the Hon. Frank P. Walsh, a gentleman who has held high positions in America, a valued adviser of the President of the United States in the period from 1916 to 1920, who placed his services at the disposal of the people of this country at a time when Deputy Dillon and Deputy Coburn stood aloof and when Deputy McGilligan was, as the Minister for Industry and Commerce said, living in obscurity, an obscurity from which he emerged to serve the country only when he was certain that his services would be paid for.

Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 61; Níl, 45.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neal.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Daniel.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Cleary, Mícheál.
  • Concannon, Helena.
  • Cooney, Eamonn.
  • Corkery, Daniel.
  • Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
  • Crowley, Timothy.
  • Daly, Denis.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Doherty, Hugh.
  • Donnelly, Eamon.
  • Everett, James.
  • Flinn, Hugo V.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Geoghegan, James.
  • Gibbons, Seán.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hogan, Patrick (Clare).
  • Houlihan, Patrick.
  • Jordan, Stephen.
  • Keely, Séamus P.
  • Kehoe, Patrick.
  • Kelly, James Patrick.
  • Kelly, Thomas.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kilroy, Michael.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maguire, Conor Alexander.
  • Moane, Edward.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Murphy, Patrick Stephen.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Kelly, Seán Thomas.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Pearse, Margaret Mary.
  • Rice, Edward.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick Joseph.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Victory, James.
  • Walsh, Richard.
  • Ward, Francis C. (Dr.).

Níl

  • Alton, Ernest Henry.
  • Belton, Patrick.
  • Bennett, George Cecil.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Brodrick, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Costello, John Aloysius.
  • Curran, Richard.
  • Davitt, Robert Emmet.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Esmonde, Osmond Grattan.
  • Finlay, John.
  • Fitzgerald, Desmond.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • Haslett, Alexander.
  • Holohan, Richard.
  • Keating, John.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • MacDermot, Frank.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McGovern, Patrick.
  • McGuire, James Ivan.
  • Minch, Sydney B.
  • Morrisroe, James.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Nally, Martin.
  • O'Connor, Batt.
  • O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas Francis.
  • O'Leary, Daniel.
  • O'Neill, Eamonn.
  • O'Reilly, John Joseph.
  • O'Sullivan, Gearoid.
  • Redmond, Bridget Mary.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Rice, Vincent.
  • Roddy, Martin.
  • Rogers, Patrick James.
  • Thrift, William Edward.
  • Wall, Nicholas.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Little and Smith; Níl: Deputies Bennett and O'Leary.
Question declared carried.
Barr
Roinn