It is proposed to take from item 2 to item 13 on the Order Paper, item 9 to be taken in its appropriate place. An arrangement has been made for the adjournment debate at such time as public business concludes. In any case the Dáil will rise at 10.30 p.m. If public business is concluded sufficiently early to allow for a debate of three hours, we will make that time available. It is also agreed that three-quarters of an hour of that time, or whatever time is available, will be reserved for any reply the Government may be disposed to make.
Order of Business.
Who made that agreement?
I take it that the agreement was made by the Whips.
I repudiate that. There was no such agreement made. If an agreement were made we would stand over it, but there was no agreement arrived at.
It is not the first time you repudiated agreements.
It does not matter; we do not mind whether there is agreement or not.
I would like to know where we stand if that agreement is now repudiated.
In order to satisfy the fastidiousness of the Minister for Defence, I will substitute another word for repudiation. I say that the agreement was not made. It is one thing to say you will allow a debate for three hours, giving three-quarters of an hour to the Minister replying. It is another thing to get agreement to it. There was no agreement arrived at.
My information is that there was an agreement.
I understood from my conversations with Deputy Mulcahy over the telephone that was the substance of our agreement.
The substance of our conversations earlier in the day yesterday was that about two hours would probably be necessary for an adjournment debate. There was no agreement good, bad or indifferent. I was in touch with the Deputy at 10 o'clock last night. I did not inform the Deputy until 10 o'clock—I was not in a position to inform him sooner— what matters were to be discussed on the adjournment. There was no settlement with regard to time. I had a telephone communication to the effect that it was proposed to spend three hours on the adjournment. That was conveyed to me, not by the Deputy but by someone on his behalf. There was no reference as to the definite time that would be taken for the discussion on the adjournment.
I understood clearly from the conversations I had with Deputy Mulcahy that he was not agreeable to accept merely two hours for the debate; if we arranged for three hours he would be satisfied and he admitted that the Government was entitled to three-quarters of an hour in order to reply to questions. He said that the debate would be more or less in an interrogatory form and it was obvious from the conversations that time must be given to the Government to reply. He admitted that two hours would be sufficient for the Opposition. I took it that there was a substantial agreement. At a late hour last night the Deputy was speaking on the adjournment and I tried to get in touch with him afterwards, but it was only to confirm what was a substantial agreement.
Confirming a substantial agreement is another matter. I think the Deputy will admit that I usually try to come to very definite conclusions and I then stand over them. There was no definite decision arrived at last night with regard to the time that would be spent on the adjournment debate. It was 10 o'clock before I could tell him what was going to be discussed on the adjournment.
We would like to be in a position to know with whom arrangements can be made that will reach some final form and that will not later be repudiated or rejected.
At any time we are prepared to make arrangements, but we are not prepared to accept this form of arrangement indicating to us that we are going to be allowed two or three hours. If the President spent more time at his business here instead of scamping work perhaps he would know more about these agreements.
And if the Deputy was more attentive to his duties more work would be done here. The Deputy need not talk.
How can an agreement be repudiated when it was never made?
Ask Thomas.
You ask him. You are very much more in touch with that crowd over there than we are and you will probably be back to them again before you are finished.