Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 30 Nov 1933

Vol. 50 No. 5

In Committee on Finance. - Supplementary Estimates. Vote 53—Forestry.

Minister for Finance (Mr. MacEntee)

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim-Bhreise ná raghaidh thar £30,350 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1934, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí i dtaobh Foraoiseachta maraon le Deontas-i-gCabhair chun Tailimh do Thógaint (9 agus 10 Geo. 5, c. 58; Uimh. 16 de 1924; agus Uimh. 34 de 1928).

That a Supplementary sum not exceeding £30,350 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1934, for Salaries and Expenses in connection with Forestry, including a Grant-in-Aid for Acquisition of Land (9 and 10 Geo. 5, c. 58, No. 16 of 1924 and No. 34 of 1928).

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

Are we going to get any statement from the Minister on this Vote?

Mr. Dillon

Is it the intention of the Minister for Forestry to make a statement showing why this money is required?

Mr. MacEntee

It seemed to be the wish of the Opposition to have a prolonged debate on the adjournment and I was inclined to economise time and so did not speak, for I presumed the Minister for Agriculture would speak on this Estimate. This Estimate for Forestry is necessitated by the fact that it is proposed to increase the area to be planted this year from 3,500 to 6,000 acres in the immediate future with the ultimate object of reaching 10,000 acres to be laid out under forestry annually later on. For the purpose of reaching to this programme it is necessary to acquire this year additional suitable land for tree planting. This is in addition to sub-head C (1)—Acquisition of Land (Grant-in-Aid) for Forestry. The original Estimate for that sub-head was £10,000 and now it is proposed that of this present supplementary estimate an additional sum of £25,000 will be made available so as to extend the planting to 6,000 or 7,000 acres this year, that is in the current financial year. It is not possible to foretell yet whether negotiations for the purchase of suitable land for that amount will he completed before 31st March next. The provision for this £25,000 may accordingly be regarded to some extent as conjectural. However, the Vote is a Grant-in-Aid and any additional sum that may be over will not be surrendered at the close of the financial year but will remain in the Grand-in-Aid Fund and be available for the following year.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

How is this additional sum to be expended? Under sub-head C (2)—Cultural Operations, Maintenance, etc.—there is a sum of £47,000. We are told that the old rate of 3,500 acres a year is to be kept on until further land is acquired when it is to reach 6,000 or 7,000 acres a year. How is this 6,000 acres to be reached this year when the services for planting and reclamation are the same as last year and other years? I should like to know where the £25,000 comes in there. Unless my recollection is strangely at fault, the Minister, when introducing the original Estimate here, said that tree planting could only go on at the rate of 3,500 acres because at the moment there were not sufficient seedlings in the country to plant more than that.

Dr. Ryan

I think the Deputy must have misunderstood me. I did not imply that the maximum area of land to be planted this year would remain at 3,500 acres. I indicated that it was our purpose to increase the rate of acquisition of land for the purpose of planting from 3,500 acres at present to 10,000 acres per annum ultimately but that in the immediate future we thought we should be able to bring it up to 6,000 or 7,000 acres per annum. Some of that land will be immediately acquired and it will be ready for planting. The money in the Estimate is for the purpose of planting that land which, though not yet acquired, will be available for planting as soon as we get it.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

Does the Minister suggest that he will be able to spend this money between now and 31st March in acquiring land, investigating the title, etc., and that when the land is acquired he will be able to spend the money on the planting and preparation of that land, especially as it was stated here already that one of the difficulties was that there would not be sufficient young trees to go on with beyond the rate at which the Forestry Department has been progressing in the last few years? On how many acres does he anticipate that this money is going to be spent?

Minister for Agriculture (Dr. Ryan)

It will be quite easy to dispose of the £25,000 because we have a great deal of land to take over. It is only a matter of finding the finances. This £25,000 can be spent to a good purpose. With regard to the money for cultural operations I said we hoped to reach eventually 10,000 acres a year, but we could not do that next year or the year after because our own seedlings were suitable in this elimate while the imported seedlings were unsuitable. We can, however, go beyond 3,000 acres. We can go to 4,000 acres by using all the seedlings we have and going into the native nurseries for more so that we will be increasing our planting operations this year by 30 per cent. or more. Naturally the £5,000 for cultural operations and maintenance in addition to the £47,000 is not out of proportion for this year.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

Where is the extra 1,000 acres to be planted—in what part of the country is this land situate?

Dr. Ryan

I could not tell you. I would want to have the table before me.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

Then it is all conjectural.

Dr. Ryan

No, we have the land at present on the point of being taken over.

Mr. Dillon

It has now become the practice to transact State business on the hustings and the last to be acquainted with State activities are the members of this House. Who is Minister for Forestry now? Is it Senator Connolly or Dr. Ryan who is Minister for Forestry?

Dr. Ryan

I am Minister for Forestry until 12 o'clock to-night.

Mr. Dillon

It is an interesting commentary on current politics that Senator Connolly, having taken in hand the fixing of the affairs of the world and having come home with empty hands from Geneva, is now going to undertake duties the net result of which will not be seen for 30 or 35 years.

Dr. Ryan

It would be a good thing if the results of the Deputy's activities would not be known for 30 years.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister anticipates he will take over 6,000 acres for the purpose of planting and for this he is providing £25,000. How much an acre does he propose to pay for this land?

Dr. Ryan

The Deputy has not understood me.

Mr. Dillon

I understand that the Minister requires £25,000. What does he want the £25,000 for? Is he going to acquire in this year more than 1,000 acres additional?

Dr. Ryan

Oh, much more.

Mr. Dillon

Or is he going to spend part of it in this financial year and allow the balance to go into the Exchequer? On what is he going to spend this money?

Dr. Ryan

On purchasing or acquiring between 8,000 and 10,000 acres.

Mr. Dillon

Has the Minister made up his mind as to where he is to acquire the land?

Dr. Ryan

No.

Mr. Dillon

I think it would be an advantage to the House to know where the Minister is to acquire the land. On more than one occasion we were told that the difficulty of the Forestry Department was to find suitable land available for forestry; it is very necessary that the Minister should inform the House of the exact whereabouts of the land he has now in his eye for acquisition. I think it would be well also if the Minister would inform the House of the general principles upon which he proposes to proceed. Does he propose to acquire large blocks of land for considerable forestry undertakings, or will he pursue the policy of acquiring small and scattered plots and have a very large number of plantations?

Under c (2) I would like to ask him if he is satisfied that the powers which he has under the Principal Act for preserving amenities in the shape of trees are being used to their full advantage. I understood that under the Forestry Act he had power to prevent any person cutting a tree where the cutting of it would interfere with the amenities of a district unless that person undertook to plant something in the place of what he took away; also that people may not cut trees at all without express permission from him. I think it would be well if the Minister would enquire as to whether those powers are being adequately used. Those are the principal questions upon which I would like to have information: the whereabouts, the general line of policy as to whether they are to be large blocks or not, and the approximate price per acre which he thinks it will be expedient to pay.

Mr. S. Brodrick

I would like to have some information from the Minister on the lines that Deputy Dillon has indicated. I would like to know, for instance, the minimum acreage of the belts that will be taken for the purpose of planting. Some years ago the complaint was made that the belts were too big, that is to say, belts of in or about 200 acres. I have been down through the country and I think the people are being misled in connection with this forestry scheme. I do not know where the information is coming from, but I have met several people with 20 and 30 acres and they seem to be sure that their land is going to be taken over for planting. They have also been led to believe that the price they will get will be £4 10s. per acre. I would like to know from the Minister the minimum acreage that will be taken for the purposes of planting as well as the price that will be paid for the land, and whether the land will be freehold. I believe myself that belts of 300 acres will be difficult to get from one person. Certainly the planting of small plots of, say, 30 or 40 acres is going to be very costly. Personally, I would like to see belts of in or about 100 acres. In the case of planting, I want to make an appeal to the Minister that the needs of the West of Ireland will be attended to. Alongside the agricultural station at Athenry you have a belt of about 600 acres. I believe the Forestry Department tried some years ago to make a deal in connection with that, but it was not completed. I would appeal to the Minister to see that areas in Connemara are planted, such as the Maam Valley and other areas. It would be of great benefit and certainly would afford shelter in that part of the country. I have been informed also that the land there is very suitable for planting.

A few years ago, when the present Government was in Opposition, the members of it said that when they got into office their scheme of planting would be 10,000 acres per annum. The scheme carried out under the late Government was in or about 3,000 acres, but the best that we can get from the Fianna Fáil Government, now in office for almost two years, is a scheme for 4,000 acres. I am afraid promises of the same kind must have been made around the country because there are people with 10 or 15 acres of bogland who have been led to believe that it will be taken from them for planting purposes and that they are going to get £4 10s. per acre for it. These are the sort of promises that were made by the present Government when in Opposition three or four years ago. They then told the people that if they got into office they would plant at the rate of 10,000 acres a year. The Minister for Agriculture made the admission to-day that their scheme is one of in or about 4,000 acres. I hope the Minister, when replying, will let me have the information that I have asked for.

Mr. Curran

I would like to bring to the Minister's notice that it has been conveyed to me that in part of my constituency planting is not being carried out on as extensive a scale as in former years, and that as a result there has been a reduction in the number of men employed on planting. People in the rural areas consider, and rightly so, I think, that planting is one of the best means that could be provided for solving the unemployment problem in the country districts. I listened last night to the speech of the Minister for Industry and Commerce in which he referred to all that the Government had done for the relief of unemployment. I can assure the Minister that if he were present at a county council meeting yesterday, as I was, he would have a different story to tell as regards the solution of the unemployment problem. Men from every part of the district attended the meeting and appealed to the county council to press for the carrying out of relief works so that something might be done for the large numbers of unemployed. I have intervened in this debate for the purpose of bringing under the notice of the Minister the appeals made by people in my district. They feel, and they are in a position to know, that forestry and planting work should be pushed on with greater expedition than it is at present.

Mr. MacDermot

I rise for a moment to ask the Minister to give more consideration than his Department has yet given in connection with afforestation to the deplorable plight of a small but very old and steadily prosperous Irish industry. I refer to nurserymen who had their business completely wiped out by the economic war under the tariffs that have been imposed by the British on young trees. These men had hoped, in view of the developments in connection with afforestation in this country, that the Forestry Department here would buy these young trees from them, but so far they have met with no success in their representations. The particular people for whom I speak live, for the most part, round Summerhill and elsewhere in the County Meath. The Forestry Department seems to take up in regard to them a red-tape and non possumus attitude. As they have been in the habit of making their purchases from other sources on a large scale, they do not want to be bothered with the case of these little nurserymen. In view of the fact that these people have made, father and son for a hundred years back, a steadily good living on very small holdings of land out of this business, I think it is a tragical thing to see it wiped out in the name of our new economy and I would press the Minister to persuade his Department to exercise a little more humanity, a little more consideration and commonsense in dealing with these people.

Mr. Dillon

I think it is only right that a protest should be made that on the introduction of an Estimate for over £30,000, indicative of a considerable new departure, the Minister who introduced that Estimate announces his intention of retiring from that office six hours after getting the money. I think it shows discourtesy to the House that Senator Connolly should not have attended and answered here for what is virtually his Estimate. It means that this money has to be provided, and that the man responsible for its expenditure has not afforded this House an opportunity of questioning him, or hearing him, as to what his intentions are. This is a new departure in this House, and I think it is greatly to be deplored.

Dr. Ryan

It is quite possible that if Senator Connolly had come here to introduce this Estimate, Deputy Dillon would have said that I should have been here to answer upon this particular question. I think it is the duty of the outgoing Minister to try to get the money that he has committed his Department to. However, I suppose Deputy Dillon was not serious in the point he raised. If he was serious it was a foolish point. Deputy Dillon wants to know where the land is. There are some rather large areas, two of them ranging from between 2,000 and 3,000 acres, in South Tipperary and Waterford, so that Deputy Curran will have no more cause of complaint.

Mr. Curran

But the work is not done.

Dr. Ryan

We are looking for the money.

Mr. Curran

I hope you will get the money and put the men at work.

Dr. Ryan

Give it to me, and they will soon be at work. There are other areas in other parts of Ireland that can be planted. Deputy Dillon also asked if we have sufficient power to preserve the amenities in connection with forestry. No trees can be felled.

Mr. MacDermot

Except for blocking the roads to United Ireland meetings.

Dr. Ryan

Is not that preserving the amenities?

Mr. Dillon

With the approval and encouragement of the Minister.

Dr. Ryan

We have quite sufficient power to preserve these trees. Deputy Brodrick was anxious about the minimum to be taken over. The minimum considered by the Forestry Department is 350 acres; we would prefer 500 as a minimum. It is impossible to announce what is the minimum we would take for particular persons. If there are many persons together we might take ten or 20 acres to make up the minimum. If we have a forestry station in the vicinity we might take over the land or small holdings if the average price did not exceed £3. There may be cases where £4 10/- would be paid to get a good bit of land beside a nursery or where there was standing timber. That price of £3 means getting the place as a freehold. The seller is to redeem whatever might be due to the Land Commission or other such charges. As regards afforestation in the West of Ireland, the Forestry Department is run, more or less, on commercial lines. We try to make it a commercial proposition, and so far we have not departed to the point of taking over an area that would be uneconomic for forestry, because of other considerations, such as the need for relief work and things like that. One of the reasons why the Department is handed over to the Minister for Lands and Fisheries is that a slight bias might be given in that direction to Gaeltacht forestry. I do not know how far the Minister might go, but, at any rate, in that Department there will be more consideration given to the Gaeltacht than has been given up to this.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

Would the Minister be surprised when I inform him that some of the finest and largest trees grown for hundreds of years grow in the Irish Gaeltacht, near Tourmakeady?

Dr. Ryan

It is quite possible. Deputy Brodrick spoke of our programme of a few years and 10,000 acres. That is still our programme, but, as I explained, we have got to get the seedlings, and we will not have them for some years. This year we will only have seedlings sufficient to plant about 4,000 acres. I might, in fact, also say in answer to Deputy MacDermot that we are prepared to go outside the State nurseries and to take whatever seedlings are fit for planting from other nurserymen in order to get the biggest areas under plantation this season. We have only enough seedlings to do about 4,000 acres this year. The following year we may go in for 5,000 or 6,000 acres, but it will take at least three years before we reach the 10,000 acre mark. With regard to the question raised by Deputy Curran about less employment in forestry in South Tipperary, I am not sure whether he is right, but I will look into the matter that he has raised.

Question put and agreed to.