It is proposed to take from No. 2 on the Orders of the Day, onwards, omitting No. 5. Items 2 and 3 will be taken in their appropriate places. No Private Deputies' time will be given to-day. The reason is that there is so much Government business to be done. Estimates have to be completed, the Vote on Account taken, and the Central Fund Bill has to be passed into law. Then the Teachers' Pensions Order has got to be approved before the end of the financial year.
Order of Business.
The order of business will be from item No. 2 onwards, omitting No. 5, public business not to be interrupted at 9 o'clock.
I rise to oppose this motion. There are several items down for consideration during Private Members' time, and the Ministerial contribution to them has been in dwindling form. There have been various occasions on which the House has come together for one day, and there ought to have been previous consideration given by the Government to the business on the Order Paper. Therefore, Sir, I am opposing the motion that Private Members' time be taken by the Government to-day.
I would ask the President not to persist in the proposal to take Private Member's time. This motion which is the subject of discussion at the moment is likely to finish to-day if the Deputy replying can be induced to stop this rhetorical marathon which started about a week ago. This motion has already been discussed since October of last year. It is now the month of March, and the motion is not yet ended, but there seems to be a reasonable prospect now that it will end. We have a motion on the Order Paper here which has been there for a considerable period. It is a very important motion from our point of view, and we could not agree to any proposal which involves delaying that motion anything further. I ask the President not to persist in the proposal to take Private Members' time.
I want to oppose the motion also. I am very glad that Deputy Norton has asked the President not to persist in it, in view of the fact that the motion standing in the name of Deputy Norton and other members of the Labour Party has been on the Order Paper for almost 12 months, and draws attention to the widespread unemployment in the country; and particularly in view of the fact that there are 40,000 more registered unemployed to-day than there were when the motion was put on the Order Paper. Deputy Norton talks about wasting time on the motion before the House—Deputy Belton's motion. It has been discussed, he said, since last October. Might I remind him that it has been on the Order Paper since March, and that the longest speeches on the motion were made by members of the Government?
And none by the Labour Party.
Deputy Flinn took four hours speaking on agriculture. The Minister for Finance spoke for nearly three hours. Let us remember, when the President talks about pressure of time or rather about pressure of Government business, that the President himself said here last year that it would be a good thing if the Dáil were to shut for six months. He nearly got his six months in instalments. There was a three months' adjournment last year. At the end of the year we met for, I think, a fortnight, and then the President adjourned for two months, because the Government were not able so to arrange their business as to keep the Dáil in session. The President smiles. After two months we came back; Deputies were brought from all over the State, and we met for one day only, because the Government had no business. The following week we met for two days, and now we are told by the President—he did not state this, but he implied it—that for the remainder of this session Private Deputies' time is not to be given. Deputies will remember that last year the Government took the very same action, and that for nearly two months Private Deputies did not get an opportunity of bringing any motion before the House. I submit that this motion of Deputy Belton's ought to be allowed to finish, and that Deputy Norton's motion should be given an opportunity of at least being entered upon, in view of the fact that there are more registered unemployed to-day than at any period in the history of the State.
It is not exactly correct —although it is not my duty to defend the Government—for Deputy Morrissey to say that the time spent on the discussion of this motion has been taken up more by the Government than by the Opposition.
I specified two members of the Government.
Deputy Belton has taken between two and two and a half hours in moving the motion. He has already occupied the time of the House to the extent of three hours in endeavouring to reply. May God help the farmers of this country if they have to wait for derating until he has finished. I rise rather to request Deputy MacDermot, who believes in half hour speeches, to appeal to his own colleague to shut up and let the division be taken.
It is interesting to hear Deputy Davin, who represents here an agricultural constituency——
Dr. Ryan
Which you do not.
I represent agriculture, which the Minister does not, and I know agriculture, which the Minister does not. If the Minister would care to try it we will take a pair of horses each to-morrow, or will he come with me to-morrow and take a dung-fork to spread manure? If he did, a Chinn Comhairle, his knowledge as a medical doctor would be useful to him in the evening and he would want it. In agriculture it is about the only way it would come in useful to him. Deputy Davin gets up here and, on a matter vitally affecting the industry on which this country stands, lives, moves and has its being, he finds fault with a long debate.
Five and a half hours of your speech is what I object to.
Were you here?
I was.
You represent an agricultural constituency in this House, and you never opened your mouth on this motion.
You could say what you want to say in half an hour.
A Deputy
Tell that to Deputy Hugo Flinn.
The Deputy is not in a position to say whether I—or any other man—could say what I have to say in half an hour on a subject of which he is totally ignorant. He had nothing to say to us when the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance occupied three or four hours on the motion.
I had.
Or when the Minister for Finance occupied four hours on it.
Repeating himself.
I objected to that too.
If two members of this House who were born and reared in big cities, and would not know one agricultural crop from another, waste the time of the House in speaking for nine or ten hours on an agricultural motion, without any protest from the Labour Benches, surely they ought to remain silent when a man who was born in agriculture and makes his living out of agriculture rises to reply. I hope that the Press will take note——
The cartoonist!
——of the laughter which my remarks on this motion have evoked from the benches opposite. I hope the country Press particularly——
The Deputy must come to the matter before the House.
——will take a special note of the little dwindling Labour Party that represents the agricultural constituencies only; the industrial constituencies have found them out long ago and would have none of them.
Leix and Offaly would not have you. They gave you 2,000 votes.
The farmers of Leix and Offaly elected you——
And they would not elect you. You got 2,000 votes; that is all you got.
I had not the funds of the British Labour Party behind me or I would have got more. I have Irish funds behind me.
So had I.
I left no nest-egg behind me. I paid my way——
If the Deputy cannot deal with the motion before the House he will have to resume his seat.
Depriving Private Members of time to debate urgent motions reveals the President in his true colours. A motion or motions were put down here as urgent. They will, a month hence, scarcely be relevant at all, because the season for operating them will have passed. The President said he could not give Government time to debate them, and now he cuts out even Private Members' time for the discussion of those motions. That shows that the President, when he is in an awkward corner, is afraid to face the music.
Let him now show the policy of self-sufficiency that many others believed in, and believed in before the President believed in it, and believed in before the President entered Irish politics. His mishandling of that policy is bringing that policy into discredit. Motions were put down for discussion in this House, not to obstruct or hinder in any way the application and development of that policy but to facilitate its carrying out and to instruct the ignorant on the Government Benches opposite, but the Minister would not give time for their discussion.
I, too, object, and particularly for the reason that the Labour Party motion has been on the Order Paper for very many moons now. It speaks of "continued and widespread unemployment" and so on, and I submit that unemployment has increased by at least 75 per cent. since the motion was placed on the Order Paper. As one who has contributed to the discussion on Deputy's Belton's motion, which condemned the action of the Government in reducing the total of the grants payable for the relief of rates on agricultural land, let me say that I am not at all convinced by the attitude Deputy Davin has taken up on this matter. During the whole course of that discussion, we had no contribution from Deputy Davin, who, because he represents an agricultural community or constituency, should at least have contributed his quota to the discussion.
Does the Deputy represent an agricultural constituency?
In answer to Deputy Davin's interruption, I do represent a very large number of farmers and considerably more industrialists than any member of the Labour Party.
Question!
Deputy Corish says "question." I am prepared to examine Deputy Corish's credentials on that. Deputy Corish made a speech at a meeting of the Wexford Corporation——
The Deputy cannot refer to the meetings of the Wexford Corporation on this matter.
I want to show how Deputy Corish faces two ways and how Deputy Davin faces both ways. Deputy Davin has worked himself into a wonderful frenzy——
He has not.
——but I would rather see that kind of frenzy expressed either in a vote in this House or in a speech in this House, but let us examine how Deputy Davin has contributed to the debates here. When was he here last? The divisions show an average attendance of about four of the Labour Party and they have a Party of eight. That is, roughly, a 50 per cent. vote on very vital issues in this House. We had a matter before the House, just a week or two ago, with regard to reductions in the allowances and salaries of certain local government officials, which the Labour Party declared they were determined to oppose. Yet, we find Deputy Davin abstaining and we find Deputy Keyes abstaining——
All of which has no bearing on this question.
On this motion we certainly had a long speech from Deputy Belton, but if there were a marathon in speeches, I think the palm would be given to Deputy Flinn for his contribution, which lasted for several hours. He prefaced his last speech by stating, with a couple of hours to go, that he intended to move the adjournment, with the accompaniment of the usual decanter and glass. When Deputy Flinn was allowed to strut the stage, in the best comic opera fashion——
The Deputy must not apply the term "comic opera" to this House, nor to the speech of any member of it.
I said "comic opera fashion."
Deputies
Chair!
I bow to the Chair, not like some of the hooligans opposite.
The Deputy must withdraw the words "comic opera."
I said "comic opera attitude" and I think that is quite in order.
The Deputy must withdraw the term.
If the Chair says that it is not in order——
It is not in order.
I am quite prepared to withdraw if the Chair says it is not.
Is the Deputy in order in referring to Deputies of this House as hooligans?
It is not in order, though used in reply to an interruption.
The Deputy used the word.
Deputy Davin must be getting very thin-skinned and, apparently, what I said about his attendance in this House is bearing some kind of fruit. It must have got home.
Indeed, it has not.
We had several long speeches from members of the Opposition. Apparently, the Labour Party to-day are reserving all their criticisms for members of the Opposition, while very little, if any, criticism is directed towards Ministers or members of the present Government Party. That is quite a new attitude, so far as I know, in connection with Labour Party politics here and elsewhere. The Labour Party, of course, will vote to-night for the gag, and yet it is a tradition in Labour Party politics never to vote for the closure. That old order has been departed from since the Labour Party became, let me say, the rag-tag and bob-tail of the Fianna Fáil Party.
You voted for the Public Safety Act.
And I would vote for five Public Safety Acts. In answer to that interruption, if the same kind of conditions obtained to-morrow, I would do the same thing, as I told the Labour Party in their own chamber.
You voted for the closure on it.
You voted for it yourselves.
I never voted for the closure and I never shall.
You did on the Public Safety Act.
I voted for the Public Safety Act, and I would do the same thing again under similar circumstances.
And the gag.
Not the gag. I never voted for it. I challenge the Deputy to prove that I did. I voted for the Public Safety Act, and I am proud of it, and the citizens of Cork, whom I represent, were also proud of it, for, notwithstanding all the influences used against me, they returned me second or third in the poll on that occasion, and as an independent candidate, without any organisation behind me.
And with the Cumann na nGaedheal votes.
I wonder if under similar conditions Deputy Davin would be returned for Leix-Offaly? In any case, the present position of the Labour Party does seem strange to me as one who knows something about the old tradition that existed for so long in Labour Parties, not alone here but elsewhere, when they have on the Order Paper a motion of this kind "That in view of continued widespread unemployment" the Dáil should do certain things. How does that equate with the position of the Labour Party to-day? How does it equate with their speeches up and down the country, in which, amongst other things, they boasted of the continued prosperity that has attended this country since the present Government came into office? I feel a great deal of sympathy with the Labour Party in the awkward position in which they find themselves to-day. They are making an ordinary gesture, and they know very well that they will not win. If they thought for a moment that they would win, even by a majority of one, they would all get cold feet. They know very well that not one of them would be returned for the constituencies they represent to-day.
There is too much starch in your blue shirt.
I am neither a blue shirt nor a black shirt.
There is no blood on the shirts, anyway.
I have not got the yellow streak sufficiently developed or as well developed as Deputy Davin has. I stand up to every vote in this House, which Deputy Davin cannot boast of having done. In every case in which there was a conflict of any kind, in which high principles or national principles were involved, I was in every division since I came into this House——
And on the wrong side.
——at much inconvenience and expense to myself, which cannot be said by most of the carpet-baggers and office-seekers on the other side. Reference could easily be made—
As the Deputy has persisted in irrelevancy he will now resume his seat.
Very well, sir.
I also must protest against the motion of the President to take Private Deputies' time. This motion of Deputy Belton's has been on the Order Paper since last April, and during that time there were plenty of opportunities of discussing this question, but the House will remember the various adjournments. Then after the adjournment at Christmas we met for one day and on the following week we met for two days. That was certainly time wasted. Deputy Davin sneered at the motion down in Deputy Belton's name. Is not Deputy Davin aware that the policy of the Government in the matter of the reduction of the agricultural grant is responsible for a great deal of unemployment in the country? Some days ago I had a letter from the Secretary of the Transport Workers' Association in Macroom. That body wrote protesting against the reduction by the Cork County Council of £15,000 in the Estimate for the maintenance of main roads in the county. Will Deputy Davin deny that the position of the farmers of this State, owing to the attitude of the Government of which he is a supporter, is in great measure responsible for the reduction of the money spent on the main roads of the country? Does not the Deputy know that the Government by their action are depriving the Irish farmers of their markets, and is not this responsible for unemployment? I certainly say that the Labour Party, in supporting the Government in their present policy, is depriving labour of a great deal of employment. For that reason, I do not agree with the President's motion to take Private Members' time.
On a point of explanation, I want to say that I am only objecting to one member of this House taking five and a half hours to discuss this motion.
Will the Deputy give the name of that member?
The Deputy knows his own name.
I regret that it is not possible to meet the wishes of those who would like to have Private Members' time to-night for dealing with Private Business. I have given as my reason for taking Private Deputies' time that there is financial business on the Paper which must be got off the programme before the end of the financial year. That is the only reason. It is possible that we may be able to give Private Members' time to-morrow or Friday if this financial business on the Paper is disposed of.
Will it be possible to give time for the discussion of my motion to-day or to-morrow?
No.
It is not proposed to give time for my motion? Did I hear the President say "No"?
I said "No."
Why?
Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 71; Níl, 59.
Tá
- Aiken, Frank.
- Bartley, Gerald.
- Beegan, Patrick.
- Blaney, Neal.
- Boland, Gerald.
- Boland, Patrick.
- Bourke, Daniel.
- Brady, Brian.
- Brady, Seán.
- Breathnach, Cormac.
- Breen, Daniel.
- Briscoe, Robert.
- Browne, William Frazer.
- Carty, Frank.
- Cleary, Mícheál.
- Concannon, Helena.
- Cooney, Eamonn.
- Corkery, Daniel.
- Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
- Crowley, Timothy.
- Daly, Denis.
- Derrig, Thomas.
- De Valera, Eamon.
- Doherty, Hugh.
- Donnelly, Eamon.
- Dowdall, Thomas P.
- Flynn, John.
- Flynn, Stephen.
- Fogarty, Andrew.
- Geoghegan, James.
- Gibbons, Seán.
- Goulding, John.
- Harris, Thomas.
- Hayes, Seán.
- Houlihan, Patrick.
- Jordan, Stephen.
- Keely, Séamus P.
- Kehoe, Patrick.
- Kelly, James Patrick.
- Kelly, Thomas.
- Kennedy, Michael Joseph.
- Killilea, Mark.
- Kilroy, Michael.
- Kissane, Eamonn.
- Lemass, Seán F.
- Little, Patrick John.
- McEllistrim, Thomas.
- MacEntee, Seán.
- Maguire, Conor Alexander.
- Moane, Edward.
- Moore, Séamus.
- Moylan, Seán.
- Murphy, Patrick Stephen.
- O'Briain, Donnchadh.
- O'Doherty, Joseph.
- O'Dowd, Patrick.
- O'Grady, Seán.
- O'Kelly, Seán Thomas.
- O'Reilly, Matthew.
- Pearse, Margaret Mary.
- Rice, Edward.
- Ruttledge, Patrick Joseph.
- Ryan, James.
- Ryan, Martin.
- Ryan, Robert.
- Sheridan, Michael.
- Smith, Patrick.
- Traynor, Oscar.
- Victory, James.
- Walsh, Richard.
- Ward, Francis C. (Dr.).
Níl
- Alton, Ernest Henry.
- Anthony, Richard.
- Beckett, James Walter.
- Belton, Patrick.
- Bennett, George Cecil.
- Bourke, Séamus.
- Brennan, Michael.
- Brodrick, Seán.
- Burke, James Michael.
- Burke, Patrick.
- Fagan, Charles.
- Finlay, John.
- Fitzgerald, Desmond.
- Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
- Good, John.
- Haslett, Alexander.
- Hogan, Patrick (Clare).
- Holohan, Richard.
- Keating, John.
- Keyes, Michael.
- Lynch, Finian.
- MacDermot, Frank.
- McDonogh, Martin.
- MacEoin, Seán.
- McFadden, Michael Og.
- McGovern, Patrick.
- McMenamin, Daniel.
- Minch, Sydney B.
- Morrisroe, James.
- Morrissey, Daniel.
- Corish, Richard.
- Cosgrave, William T.
- Costello, John Aloysius.
- Curran, Richard.
- Daly, Patrick.
- Davin, William.
- Davis, Michael.
- Davitt, Robert Emmet.
- Dillon, James M.
- Everett, James.
- Mulcahy, Richard.
- Murphy, Timothy Joseph.
- Myles, James Sproule.
- Nally, Martin.
- Norton, William.
- O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
- O'Higgins, Thomas Francis.
- O'Leary, Daniel.
- O'Mahony, The.
- O'Reilly, John Joseph.
- O'Sullivan, Gearoid.
- O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
- Pattison, James P.
- Redmond, Bridget Mary.
- Rice, Vincent.
- Roddy, Martin.
- Rogers, Patrick James.
- rowlette, Robert James.
- Thrift, William Edward.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Little and Traynor; Níl: Deputies Bennett and O'Donovan.
Question declared carried.