Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 11 Apr 1934

Vol. 51 No. 12

In Committee on Finance. - Vote No. 45—Office of the Minister for Education.

Aire Oideachais (Tomás O Deirg)

Tairgim:

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £110,483 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1935, chun Costaisí Oifig an Aire Oideachais, maraon le Costas Riaracháin, Cigireachta, etc.

That a sum not exceeding £110,483 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1935, for the Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Education, including the cost of Administration, Inspection, etc.

General Mulcahy

When the Minister left the Vote on Primary Education, on the understanding that the whole of his policy would be discussed on his own Estimate, we were dealing with a question which I raised—an application from parents on the south side of the city for the setting up on the south side of a primary school that would conduct the whole of its business through the medium of Irish in the same way as Scoil Mhuire and Scoil Cholmcille on the north side of the city. The Minister was indicating that he had got an application of that kind, but that there was a difficulty in the matter of setting it up. He implied that the Department of Education could not stand the entire expense in providing that school, and that, in the second place, there was a school already existing on the south side of the city of the kind we were discussing. I think the point is rather pivotal in the question of the policy of the restoration of the Irish language as the living language of the people. Some days ago, a deputation from the Irish speaking districts of County Galway came to see the President with regard to economic conditions in the West, and the Ministerial Press, dealing with the matter, indicated the way in which, in the opinion, I take it, of the Ministry, the Irish language was to be re-spread over the whole country. It existed at the present moment in the Gaeltacht in full figure, as it were, and it was going to flow out from there, increasing the strength of the living language in the partly Irish speaking districts, and was going to flow from that over the rest of the country.

I do not think that at this hour of the day, 12 years after the Irish people, through their own machinery of education, had taken steps to save the Irish language position as the living language position; anyone could pen those lines who had any practical experience of either the condition in the Irish-speaking districts or in the schools. The Irish language living in the Irish-speaking districts is a thing without which we could not have again the language spoken by the rest of our people, but the Irish language in the Irish-speaking districts, the Minister, I think, will admit, is not a well of Irish that is bubbling with vigour at the present moment in the homes of the people nor is activity with regard to it so vigorous in the schools in the Irish-speaking districts that it gives any indication at present that in the Irish-speaking district, lies the vital force which will bring the language back into spoken use throughout the country in future. If the Minister has any misgivings on that matter, I would ask him to refer to the particulars printed in the records of the House for 31st May, 1932, when, following an enumeration of the position with regard to Irish-speaking homes in Irish-speaking districts and in partly Irish-speaking districts, certain very disturbing figures were published. Figures are given there as to the number of homes in the Irish-speaking districts and in the partly Irish-speaking districts in each of the counties in which there is any Gaeltacht and in which as a first class, the homes are entirely Irish-speaking, that is, that the children as the natural language of their home speak Irish, and, as a second class, the number of homes in which Irish is the natural language of the grown persons, but where a situation exists in which English is the only language of the children, that is, that the older people are failing to hand on in the homes as the natural living language the Irish which they themselves have, and, as a third class, the number of homes in which English is the language of the home itself.

Taking simply the totals in all those districts, the enumeration covered in the purely Irish-speaking districts 31,545 homes and in only 10,775 of these was Irish being handed on by the older people as the living home-language of the children. In 14,305 of these homes, Irish was the natural language, the language naturally used by the old people in the homes, but English was the natural language of the children. There were 6,000 odd homes in which English was the language entirely. Turning to the partly Irish-speaking districts, the enumeration covered 50,956 homes. In only 1,023 of these was the Irish language naturally spoken by the older people handed on as the home language of the people. In 10,739 of these homes where Irish was the natural language of the people, it was not being handed on to the children, and there were 39,000 odd homes in partly Irish-speaking districts where English was the language of both the older and younger people. It indicates, as I say, that the force that will spread the Irish language over this country again as a natural spoken language does not exist in the Gaeltacht. There does exist in the Gaeltacht that which we want spread over the rest of the country. It is the spirit of the people in, say, places like the capital of the country—in Dublin, Cork, and other places—who are determined by their work and by their outlook to move such forces as may be necessary to bring back Irish as a spoken language that we must rely on. It is there that the vital force exists that is going to do that work, if it can be done at all.

The real centre of that vital force is those parents in places like, say, the City of Dublin or the City of Galway or the City of Cork, who, speaking Irish themselves or knowing something about the Irish language themselves and capable of speaking it to some extent, are determined to cooperate in the fullest possible way to secure that the children growing up in their homes will have Irish from the time they begin to speak.

Here in the City of Dublin, as the Minister is aware, a number of parents did come together some years ago, and asked the Ministry of Education to help them in this movement, by setting up primary schools in Dublin that were Irish-speaking. That was done. I have heard that as a result of difficulties met with at that particular time some years ago, when a school was set up for the purpose of encouraging parents who were bringing up their children with pre-school Irish, that the Department of Education, as a result of Departmental difficulties, no doubt, or rather as a result of a Departmental outlook and as a result of the outlook on the part of the inspectors and on the part of teachers, changed that school from being a school for children with pre-school Irish to a school that admitted children whether they had pre-school Irish or not. That is past history, and the position in the north of Dublin to-day is that we have a primary school for boys and a primary school for girls, where the work is done entirely through Irish, and a preparatory school that will take children without pre-school Irish and prepare them for entry into the primary schools provided, it is found, after passing through the preparatory school that their knowledge of Irish is sufficient to enable them to follow the courses in the primary school without retarding the classes. When we come to the south side of the City of Dublin we find, as the Minister says, a school there. I said in reply to the Minister, when he said that it was there, "Yes"; but there are so many in that school that the children are falling out through the windows, and I think that 700 children are on the waiting list of that school. The position then, from the point of view of the Irish language movement, with everybody prepared to help in every way possible to see that nothing is left undone to secure the spread of the living language in the homes, is that there are hundreds of parents in the City of Dublin at the present moment who are being deprived of facilities to send their children to primary schools where Irish will be entirely the language of instruction, because the Minister cannot spend a few thousand pounds to set up a school.

I quite understand from the Minister's point of view and from the Departmental point of view, that there are serious difficulties in the matter of establishing precedents of that kind; but I submit that there is no difficulty in the world if the Minister examines it. Dublin is the capital of this country. It has an accumulation of about 400,000 people around it. There is no other part of the country where the Minister has so much material at his disposal for experimentation, if he likes, and where there are so many people willing to have that experiment fully and properly carried out. The Minister has had the experience already, in the schools on the north side of Dublin, that would warrant him, I submit, in making an additional expenditure of the same kind that was made there to secure that the other parts of the City of Dublin that are not reached by these schools will have the same facilities provided, because, while I had at times cause of complaint as to the Departmental approach to the running of these schools and the enrolling of pupils for them, nevertheless I think that results have been obtained there which the Minister would be very sorry not to have been able to see. There is, at this centre of vital force for the restoration of the Irish language, a large number of parents anxious to assist, and the Minister has been appealing for parents to assist in the matter. Those who are anxious to assist are being deprived of any possibility of giving the Minister the assistance he requires. They can be put in the position of giving him that assistance if the Minister will provide them in the south side of the city with the type of school that he has in the north of the city. The pivotal nature of the work that can be done in the City of Dublin and the terrible importance of it, first, to the language movement as a whole, and then to the position of Irish in the Irish-speaking districts, are such as to leave no excuse to the Minister for not embarking on any expense to see that, at any rate, the people in the City of Dublin who want to Irishise their schools will not have the schools standing in their way. It is an easy matter to raise an Irish-speaking family in Dublin. It has been done already, and if it had not been done I would see very little hope of the successful development of some of the other work done in the schools. These pioneer parents, however, in the City of Dublin have shown the Minister that the thing he would wish to do can be done, and while I say that the real vital force that will save the language is not in the Irish speaking districts, the thing without which we cannot save it is in the Irish districts and is oozing away fast.

The Minister also referred to the increase in the number of secondary "A" schools in the country. I wish that the Minister would assure us that there was real supervision over some of these schools. There are "A" schools in the City of Dublin which, while they profess to teach and do teach their subjects through the medium of Irish, do not comply with what, I think, is the regulation and what certainly ought to be the regulation—that Irish should be the language of the recreation hours of the children as well as of the school hours. It is perfectly absurd that special grants should be made to schools because they do their educational work through the medium of Irish and, in our present circumstances, do not also apply the regulation in the school that English shall not be used during the recreation hours. The fact is that that is so in certain schools in Dublin. That has taken the whole edge off the natural Irish-speaking children going there and anything which tends to do that should be removed out of secondary schools which are secondary schools "A" at the present time. It is a very small matter of discipline and it should be a very small matter of hardship. If it is a hardship to ask children during recreation in secondary schools to talk Irish, when they are supposed to be getting their education entirely through the medium of Irish, then I think there is something wrong with that particular secondary school. It certainly puts a very unnecessary break on the teacher's work and I think can do nothing but create very serious difficulties for teachers if the children are allowed to talk English during recreation hours.

The Minister in his opening statement on primary education dealt with the new scheme for giving money grants to parents in the Irish-speaking districts whose children apparently go to the schools with a pre-school knowledge of Irish. I think the Dáil would like to hear some more details from him on that matter and would like to hear whether he is applying in the Irish-speaking districts any systematic supervision as to the linguistic capacity of the children when they first go to the primary schools. I think that the matters I speak about are fundamental to the whole problem of dealing with the restoration of the Irish language.

I do not think the Minister has made any reference to or discussed in the House in any way the position with regard to the inspectorate in the Irish-speaking districts. If the Minister has not done anything to examine that position or unify the inspectorate in the purely Irish-speaking districts, then I think he is allowing valuable time to slip and he is neglecting to institute a controlling factor that would be of enormous actual value in keeping the language a living force in the Irish-speaking districts, because if the inspectorate has very great power over the teachers and over their minds I feel sure that one lack in the present position is that the inspectorate have not a definite objective in their minds as regards the position of Irish in the schools and the position of Irish in the homes. I think the inspectorate in the Irish-speaking districts should have that. I think they should have that as a kind of mass mind and that it would impress itself effectively on the teachers and have valuable results on the work done in the schools. I feel also that it would extend further than the schools and that it would link up very effectively the schools with the homes in the general work of preserving the Irish language in the Irish-speaking districts and giving it some of the vigour which I suggest it lacks at present—the vigour to wish to live and to wish to spread.

Mr. Dillon

When I spoke on those Estimates last year I said to the Minister that I thought we had reached a stage when it was highly desirable that some sort of inquiry should be set up to review the work of the last ten years in the schools of this country in its bearing on the task of reviving the Irish language. I called in question the prudence of teachers trying to teach infant children and other children through the medium of Irish when they have not a competent knowledge of the language themselves. If my memory serves me well, the Minister ended up by getting rather indignant about it, and said that he was not going to be bothered answering foolish contentions of that kind. Twelve months have elapsed since then and the Minister has changed his mind. He says in the statement which he made in introducing the Education Estimate this year that he hopes "when in the future the teaching profession contains a considerable proportion of these native speakers the position of Irish in the schools will be more satisfactory than it is to-day. As to the progress made at present in Irish, I cannot say that it is satisfactory in the primary schools." That is precisely the line of argument I followed 12 months ago. It is precisely the line of argument that brought the Minister to his feet in indignation to protest against the reckless charges that were being bandied about without sufficient inquiry being made. After 12 months' cogitation he is coming round to the view that there was something in the case I made.

I want to make the same case now. There is no use couching your lance and attacking all the national teachers in the country; there is no use attacking the University because Irish has not made the progress it ought to make. The proper thing to do is to sit down and try and find out why Irish has not made the progress it ought to make. The only way the Minister can get that information is to seek the assistance of the people who are in constant and daily contact with the problem in the schools and in the homes. He ought to set up a consultative committee, perhaps with a fixed term of existence, to make one report to him on the condition of Irish in the schools as they see it to-day, and to make such recommendations as they think would help in promoting the Irish language amongst the school-going generation.

I submit to the Minister that he is beating the wind so far as the revival of the Irish language is concerned if he hopes to revive it in the schools through the medium of teachers who are not themselves native speakers. The native speakers through the part of the country from which I come, and indeed over most of the Gaeltacht, have a word to describe the bulk of the Irish that is taught in the national schools to-day. They describe it as "book-Irish" and then they laugh heartily and address the unfortunate child, who has come home with his book-Irish, in English. Now, book-Irish is the Irish that children learn from teachers who are not themselves native speakers. There will be exceptions; there are exceptions, as we all know. Some people have a peculiar linguistic gift. Some people who never knew any Irish until they were practically grown-up have the strange gift that they can go down and acquire it and become nearly as fluent and nearly as correct in accent and inflection as a native speaker. But the vast majority of the people who are not born native speakers bear the mark of that upon them all their lives. They never have the same facility in teaching the language to the children committed to their care; they are never able to teach the language to the children committed to their care in the same way as can the native speaker.

As Deputy Mulcahy has just said, a number of men recently interviewed the President on behalf of the Gaeltacht. They brought under his attention the economic stress under which they are living, and the very peculiar difficulties that apply in their area. I have pointed out to the Minister for Education, more than once, that he is in a position to make a very material contribution to the relief of that economic problem in the Gaeltacht, and at the same time to make the most valuable contribution that can be made to the revival of the Irish language in this country. What is the problem in the Gaeltacht? The problem in the Gaeltacht is that practically every farmer in it is living on an uneconomic holding. Most of the people in the Gaeltacht look forward to being accommodated with land outside the Gaeltacht. The Irish Press—the Government paper—came out with an article which many of us understood to mean that the inhabitants of the Gaeltacht were to be forever penned up in that area. The leader of the deputation which waited on the President answered them pretty sharply. One means of relieving their difficulties would be to migrate them all from the Gaeltacht into another area in the country, and to give them economic holdings of land. Whether that be eventually decided upon or not, an enormously important help can be provided in the meantime by making it possible for the children of the people in the Gaeltacht to earn a decent livelihood in this country; to earn a salary sufficient to enable them to send home a few pounds every year, just as in the past the emigrants used to send home a few pounds from America or Australia or wherever else they had gone. The teaching profession is a profession which would furnish a very large number of the young people coming up from the Gaeltacht with just such a salary. What I have urged on the Minister again and again, if he really means business—and I sometimes doubt if he does—is that he should go down to the Gaeltacht and make a determined effort to get every available boy and girl there for the teaching profession.

I must say it was with considerable consternation, in that connection, that I found the Minister apologising in his preliminary statement for the percentage of places which he reserved for native speakers in the preparatory colleges, and explaining that after all only about 19 per cent. of the places in the training colleges are, in fact, reserved for candidates in the whole of the Gaeltacht area, or not quite one-fifth. Is that something to boast of? It is quite true that a very high standard in oral Irish is required for candidates, and that a very considerable proportion of places is reserved for candidates who get this very high percentage—85 per cent.—in oral Irish. In my view, no matter what percentage they get in oral Irish a native speaker of the language, who was born with the language, is infinitely more valuable as a teacher of the language than any person who has acquired Irish as a foreign tongue. In my view also the young people of the Gaeltacht are entitled to a preference in regard to this matter. For generations their people have existed under conditions of the most appalling material privation, and the survival of the language in this country is due to the people of the Gaeltacht. They are entitled to a preference now when it is within the power of the Government to give a preference, and it is good business to give them a preference.

I outlined last year a practical scheme for giving effect to that preference. I suggested to the Minister that any child from a national school in the Fíor-Ghaeltacht who was a native speaker and who was prepared to submit himself to a test for capacity to be trained as a national teacher, ought to be taken on. Of those, a comparatively small percentage would prove to be suitable material for training as teachers. For the unsuitable ones some alternative occupational training could be provided. There is ample scope for training them as domestic economy teachers, woodwork teachers, technical instructors under the local technical instruction committees, and for a variety of other occupations, as some kind of compensation for having volunteered to submit to a test for fitness to become primary teachers. After you have got those native Irish-speaking teachers, to my mind what is far more important than setting up all-Irish schools in North Dublin or South Dublin is to see that in the Breac-Ghaeltacht every teacher is a native Irish speaker; to see that at the earliest possible moment the children in the Breac-Ghaeltacht will be made familiar with the Irish language. You will then have a situation in the Breac-Ghaeltacht where you have the children familiar with the language—and when I say the language I do not mean book Irish; I mean Irish; you will have their grandparents, to whom the language comes more naturally than does English, and between the children and their grandparents you will have the parents, who know Irish but have given up using it. If you once get the children talking to their grandparents over the heads of their parents you will very quickly get the parents talking Irish too. In that way you will have converted a considerable part of the Breac-Ghaeltacht into the Fíor-Ghaeltacht, and out of that you can spread the language. If you once get the tide flowing in the opposite direction from that in which it is flowing now, the fight is won, and it becomes only a matter of time until you have spread it all across the country.

It does not matter what you do in regard to the development of the teaching of Irish in the City of Dublin, or the City of Cork, or the City of Waterford, if the Gaeltacht is shrinking as it is shrinking. If the Fíor-Ghaeltacht is turning progressively into the Breac-Ghaeltacht, and the Breac-Ghaeltacht into the Galltacht, the doom of the Irish language is sealed. Let no one imagine that by the setting up of Irish-speaking schools or trying to promote the teaching of Irish in the national schools in the Galltacht they are going to preserve the Irish language as a living language in this country; they are not, if at the same time the Gaeltacht is perishing. The Gaeltacht is perishing, and if things go on as at present it will continue to perish. When we cease to have a Gaeltacht in this country it is only a matter of time until the Irish language becomes a dead one. It is going to take a mighty big push at this stage to prevent that happening. I say now that I see very little realisation of the magnitude of the problem by the present Minister for Education. If half the enthusiasm for the prosecution of the economic war were put into the revival of the Irish language it would do. If half the enthusiasm for proving that we are traitors and are playing England's game were put into the task of reviving the Irish language it would do. If there were half as many people prepared to shout half as loudly, "Up, Irish," as they are prepared to shout "Up, de Valera," we would do. And that is going to be the test. There are a lot of people romping around this country prepared to bawl "Up, de Valera" and "Up, the Republic," but when you ask them are they prepared to do some really hard work they fade out of the picture; they wrap the green flag around them and vanish into the green wood.

Mr. Smith

Kathleen Mavourneen.

Mr. Dillon

That is what a lot of us are beginning to think, that the revival of Irish is a Kathleen Mavourneen revival—"it may be for years and it may be for ever." There are some of us who hope it is not going to be that class of a revival. An important preliminary is to get some kind of a committee together, people who are in daily contact with the facts and who will report to the Minister for Education what their views are. The teachers want that; the Minister wants it; everybody wants it. I am quite prepared to abide by whatever decision they come to, if they make a full investigation and if they are of a personnel calculated to inspire confidence and reassure everybody of their independence and determination to tell the Minister the truth.

The Minister went on to say that as regards the teaching of subjects generally, apart from the question of Irish, the results were, on the whole, satisfactory, except in rural science and mathematics, in which he could not find much progress visible. Does the Minister consider caligraphy a suitable subject for national schools?

Mr. Derrig

Certainly.

Mr. Dillon

Does he consider that satisfactory progress is being made in writing in this country?

Mr. Derrig

Yes.

Mr. Dillon

I am glad to hear it, because I must say from what I have seen coming out of the national schools in the way of caligraphy, it is anything but satisfactory. There are exceptions, showing that there are teachers who are well able to teach children how to write. Provided that matter is present to the Minister's mind, I have very little doubt that the defect which, I believe, exists, can be remedied; but I am surprised to hear from the Minister that he is satisfied with the standard of writing at present being turned out by the primary schools. It is of enormous importance to young people going out to earn their living or, indeed, about to engage in any mode of life. It strikes me that in both the primary and secondary schools insufficient attention is paid to it and the result is that many children leave the schools practically illiterate from the point of view of being able to write a legible or a firm hand.

I see the Minister congratulates himself on his scheme for giving a small yearly gratuity to each household in the Gaeltacht for each child able to speak Irish fluently and naturally as a result of the use of Irish in home life. Gratuities may serve some purpose, but I do not like them. I would far sooner that the Minister would promise that any child who can speak Irish fluently and naturally as the result of use of Irish in home life, would be provided with a good job. If he does that, he will make every child in the Gaeltacht not only anxious to learn the language, but proud to show his neighbours he is able to use it. If he can do that, he will have got right down to the defect which besets the difficulty of reviving the language of this country. The Minister also spoke of his determination to increase the supply of primary teachers from the training colleges for women. I hope when he does undertake the increase of that supply he will bear in mind the desirability of having a native-speaking personnel.

Mr. Derrig

As far as possible.

Mr. Dillon

Will you stand over that?

Mr. Derrig

Certainly.

Mr. Dillon

Every native-speaking candidate who comes up—you will give him a chance?

Mr. Derrig

There is always the question as to the educational standard of the native-speaking candidates. As far as possible we endeavour to get native-speaking candidates for all the important posts over which we have control.

Mr. Dillon

I am not talking of the posts; I am talking of the vacancies in the training colleges. The Minister said these would be given as far as possible to native speakers.

Mr. Derrig

Yes.

Mr. Dillon

Let me draw his attention to this anachronism. The present situation is that a certain number of places are reserved for speakers who come from the Fíor-Ghaeltacht. There is a further reservation for persons getting 85 per cent. in oral Irish. Let us say a girl lives in a house which is in the Fíor-Ghaeltacht and she is qualified for special consideration. Another girl lives a hundred yards from her across the boundary of the townland and she is in every way the equal—perhaps the superior—of the Fíor-Ghaeltacht resident. Not if you burn down Marlborough Street could you get that girl any of the concessions that her nextdoor neighbour secures owing to her Fíor-Ghaeltacht residence. I have every sympathy with the persons bound up by the letter of the statute or the letter of the regulation. It is impossible for persons whose sole concern is to administer the law as it is laid down, to break the law; but it is not impossible for the Minister. I remember one case. I think the name was Brighid Gallagher. I do not think anyone denied that she was in every way qualified for all the advantages and benefits that accrued to a resident in the Gaeltacht. I do not think anyone denied that, in fact, she was a resident of the Gaeltacht; but it had to be admitted for the purpose of the relevant Act of Parliament that she was living in a townland that was described as in the Breac-Ghaeltacht and she was not allowed to become a teacher on the advantageous terms available to a resident in the Gaeltacht.

I have no doubt the Minister means that, so far as the additional supply of women primary teachers is concerned, he is going to do his best to secure that they will be native Irish-speakers. May I commend to his favourable consideration forthwith the case of Miss Brighid Gallagher? We find that within the terms of the statute she is not entitled to the benefits available to residents of the Gaeltacht. You will find, however, that according to reason and commonsense she ought to be. Will the Minister take steps to see that she and all others like her are captured for the teaching profession?

I did not quite catch Deputy Mrs. Concannon's interruption. The next time the Deputy is speaking I will not make a scurrilous interruption sotto voce. If I want to interrupt I will interrupt loudly so that everyone can hear.

The Minister spoke about the urgency of providing new schools in the Dublin area, and I think he said that the urgency of this problem made it somewhat difficult for him to do as much as he would like to do in rural areas. I should like to remind him that, while everyone recognises that it is very necessary to provide school accommodation here in the city, where you have bad school accommodation you have a double inconvenience in rural areas where the children go a long journey to school. Children may in rural areas have to go one, two or three miles to school. It is a great hardship on them at the end of a three-mile journey to arrive in a bad school. I submit to the Minister that that aspect of the situation ought to be constantly present to his mind when allocating funds for the erection or improvement of schools. I asked him last year in that connection if he had considered the desirability of central schools with buses drawing children from rather a larger area than they usually come from, and he said he would be very glad to make the experiment if he could find a manager who would be prepared to co-operate with some hope of success. I should be very interested to hear what progress, if any, he has made in that direction.

I forbear making any protracted references to the recent Congress of the Irish National Teachers' Organisation. I can very well imagine it to be an exceedingly painful subject for the Minister and his colleagues. I regret to point out, but I cannot help doing so, that the Northern Ireland Minister for Education attended that Congress and was made welcome, but that when our Minister's letter of apology for non-attendance was read at that Congress, Deputy's Rice's colleagues dissolved into uproarious laughter. That was appalling enough, but when somebody mentioned Deputy Breathnach, the President of the Irish National Teachers' Organisation, and recalled that the organisation had provided £200 for his election expenses, just as Deputy Mrs. Concannon to-day interrupted sotto voce, a lady was heard to say, “Did we get good value for it?” and there was a thunderous roar of “No.” What inference will Deputy Rice draw from that? Will he draw the inference that we have the best Minister for Education, a Minister who is going ahead and doing the best he can for education, that we have a Minister who is doing all that he can with the means at his disposal to promote education; that we have a Minister who has the confidence of the profession and that he is doing all that is necessary for the promotion of the interests of education in this country? If the Deputy does draw this inference, I may assure him as a member of the public that these are not the inferences that are drawn by those who read the reports of the Congress in the public Press. I would be glad to know if on this Estimate we can discuss reformatories and industrial schools?

An Ceann Comhairle

The procedure has been to debate all aspects of education on the main Vote and to raise only minor points on the other Votes for the Department.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister made no reference to reformatories and industrial schools in his statement.

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not know whether the Minister intends to make a statement on that particular Vote.

Mr. Derrig

I do not think so.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy would then be in order in discussing now the Vote for Reformatories and Industrial Schools.

Mr. Dillon

Then it may be well that I should raise one or two questions, and it would be well that we should hear what the Minister has to say on these matters. A lot of people in this country do not even know, and they never bother to inquire, what system obtains in the administration of law in this country with reference to juvenile offenders. I must say that, being interested in that question, I have come to the conclusion that certain factors in it amount to little less than a public scandal. Juveniles, for the purpose of which I speak, are persons under 16 years of age. From time to time, children of that age come in conflict with the law. The procedure then is that they are brought before the Children's Court on Friday mornings in the City of Dublin, and before the District Courts in rural areas. So far as children of the poor in Dublin are concerned the procedure adopted is that when they are brought before the court they can be discharged, remanded on bail or in custody, or they can be consigned to an industrial school or reformatory according to their age and the nature of their misdemeanour.

There is a certain difficulty in discussing this problem because the Department of Justice and the Department of Education interlock in a most peculiar way. In certain stages of the proceedings the children are under the control of the Department of Justice and at later stages and even at intermediate stages, they are under the control of the Department of Education. I may, therefore, be excused if I am slightly irrelevant in detail. Children are brought before the District Justice in the presence of a probation officer and in the presence of the Gárda who is prosecuting. The District Justice, seated on a bench in the Children's Court, hears the charge. I submit that that procedure is entirely wrong. The atmosphere of a police court is not suitable for the correction of juveniles. It is important to remember that it is not an ordinary police court; it is a special court for children and, normally, the general public are not admitted. Only the parents and the parents of other children who may be brought up are admitted. Nevertheless, to a small child it presents the atmosphere of a police court.

I submit that in that connection the procedure is wrong and that where the child requires to be corrected by law the proper procedure is that the child should be brought before the District Justice sitting in his own room and there, in the presence of the child's parents, the lady probation officer and the prosecuting Gárda, adequate inquiries can be made and whatever punishment or rebuke may be necessary can be safely administered. It might, in order to preserve the principle of publicity for any form of criminal proceedings, be necessary to admit the Press. But, to my mind, it is highly desirable to avoid giving it any appearance of a public court, particularly of a police court when you are dealing with small children. It is highly undesirable too that the Gárdaí should appear in their uniforms when prosecuting children. I have frequently seen the Gárdaí at work and I know the Gárdaí do all they can to avoid frightening the children or intimidating them. Still, it is undesirable that at a very early stage in a child's life, it should come to look upon the Civic Guard as a kind of enemy and of course, it will associate its unpleasant experience in court with the uniform of the Gárda Síochána if they wear a uniform when conducting these proceedings.

Now, the case having been stated, the child can be discharged. Nothing arises under that head but sometimes a District Justice feels it is necessary to make inquiries into the child's home surroundings and into the causes for the child doing wrong and he remands the child to a place of detention in Summerhill, in the City of Dublin. The moment he does that the child passes out of the jurisdiction of the Department of Justice to the jurisdiction of the Department of Education, and we are told that he is moved to an educational establishment, there to abide a week, while investigations are being made and in order that a report may be made on his general demeanour and character by the custodian of this place of detention. What is the place of detention? I do not suppose that 5 per cent. of the citizens of this State know of the existence of the place, where it is, who controls it or what it is for, and it is very necessary that they should. What is this place? It is an old Georgian House in Summerhill, and those of us who were born and reared in Georgian houses know how gloomy and forbidding they are. My information—and I have no official information of the procedure conducted therein—is that it is kept perfectly clean and that the children, from the point of view of cleanliness and justice and food, are adequately looked after, but the premises are entirely inadequate and there is no open space for the children to go to except a small stone square back-yard. The place is under the control of the Department of Education because it is represented that the children sent there are to have the beneficent influence of education. I do not think the Minister will contradict me when I say that for the past ten years, a schoolbook has never been seen inside the doors of that establishment. They may have risen in their more prosperous days to a stick of chalk, but I doubt it.

This establishment, as I say, is used for the purpose of detaining children on remand. I am deliberately using the language of moderation. I recognise that this is not a problem which is specially the responsibility of one Party or another. It is a problem rather for a non-political group to examine into and to reform, but I want to say that I could not conceive any more unsuitable or deplorable accommodation for the problem for which this place of detention is intended than the place that is there at the present time. While, as I say, it is neither dirty nor ill run, it is deplorable and it is something that ought to be remedied without any delay whatever. The children are there under conditions which are altogether unsuitable for this stage of development in the administration of juvenile criminal law. The average population of it is about seven children and they range from very tender years. I have known children to be there as young as three-and-a-half or four years of age. Under such circumstances, they would usually be accompanied by an older brother and they would be there on their way to an industrial school, but when you realise that you have children ranging from four years to 14 years of age penned up together in an old Georgian house, situated between two tenement houses in Summerhill, I think that, without painting the picture too luridly, the House will realise that the accommodation, to say the very least of it, is inadequate and unsuitable and ought to be remedied.

That place is usually used for a week's detention, but it is sometimes used—rarely, but still sometimes—for longer periods of detention, and I do not think it should ever be so used for longer periods of detention. When a child comes back after spending a week on remand there, he comes before the District Justice again, and the District Justice then must make up his mind to do one of three things. He can commit the child to the care of a suitable person, which, in my opinion, is the ideal solution; he can send the child to an industrial school if he is under 14 years of age, or if the child is over 16 years of age, he may send it to a reformatory, of which there is only one in this country, at Phillipstown. If the child is over 16, he must send it to a reformatory, if he desires to confine it at all, because he cannot send children under 16 to an industrial school. The Minister will correct me if I am wrong. I think those are the correct ages—a child over 16 years cannot be committed to an industrial school; he must go to a reformatory, if a District Justice decides that he must be confined in a place of detention, and similarly, if a child is under 14, he cannot be sent to a reformatory, but must go to an industrial school. I want to submit that that system is entirely wrong. The industrial schools in this country are largely peopled by youngsters who, by misfortune, are orphans and destitute and have never come into contact with criminal activities at all. Remember that there are certain children—those under 14 years of age—who must go to an industrial school, and unfortunately one does find, rarely but occasionally, precocious children of just under 14 years who do get involved in very deplorable circumstances which bring them into conflict with the law. There ought to be some special school or place of detention where children so circumstanced could be sent for special treatment, and for segregation from the children of poor but respectable parents who never came into contact with crime at all.

Take the boy of over 16 who may be guilty of some very trivial offence, and who merely wants a period of discipline, who merely wants, perhaps, to be taken away from a bad home surrounding, but for whom a couple of years in a good, stiff school would mean redemption. He has got to go down to a reformatory, although he was never a case for a reformatory. He is not a potential criminal at all, but merely a wild youngster who wants discipline and a stern hand over him for a couple of years. Then, you have all the cases in between him and the precocious bad boy of 14, who is no more than a child and who, if taken in time, even though he is a potential criminal at 13 or 14 years of age, can easily be reformed, and for whom association with older boys of superior character could be very useful under prudent and proper surveillance. What I ask the Minister to do is to provide in addition to a reformatory and the present industrial schools, a school of his own founding— such a school as is described in Great Britain as a Home Office school. I ask him to put it under the charge of an Order of Priests whose special mission is the reform of recalcitrant youth. I ask him to leave it in the discretion of the District Justice to pick out the children who shall go to the industrial school, and for them I would intend the kind of children under 14 years of age who are continually playing on the streets and becoming entirely unmanageable in their own homes, whose parents come to court and say—"I cannot control that child any longer; I have done my best, and I cannot control him. I abandon control of that child." Short of that, I do not think the child should ever be taken out of the family circle, but where the parent says that it is beyond his or her capacity to control the child, I say let that child go to the industrial school.

Where you have a youth of 17 years of age and the Guards come in and say:—"This is a precocious boy of 17; he is in fact on the verge of becoming a vicious criminal," let that boy go to the reformatory. For immediate cases which are more to be pitied than condemned, and who have become wild through lack of family influence and such things—the cases of older boys who cannot be prevented from doing silly things again and again to their own danger as well as to that of the public weal—let the District Justice have the option of sparing them from contact with potential criminals and, at the other end, with the precocious child, of abstaining from putting them into contact with the population of the industrial schools throughout the country, and let him group them together in what I shall describe, for convenience, as a Home Office school under the direction of the Minister and under the immediate control of an Order of priests who will be well fitted for the work. Having set up that school, I want him to set fire to Summerhill and provide an annex to that Home Office school which will be under the direction of this same Order of priests. There should be a competent matron in it also. I feel sure that if Deputy Mrs. Concannon would go down to the Children's Court some Friday and see little children being taken from their mothers she would join with me in saying that the presence of a competent matron to impart some kind of material atmosphere in a place of detention to which these children would be removed, is essential. Such a matron would want to be a very highly trained person, and I do not think that expense should stand in the way of securing the services of such a person. If such a person were appointed, children, whether subsequently proved to be guilty or not, could be removed on remand for a week without anyone feeling that substantial injustice had been done. It would provide an atmosphere as closely approximating to the family atmosphere as it would be possible for the State to make it, and there the children could be watched over and cared for prudently, while enquiries were being made as to their family control, character, and so on.

I have only very briefly outlined a general scheme. My reason for bringing it forward is to impress on the House the necessity of a full investigation of this whole question. I trust the Minister will give me the credit of having deliberately abstained from using violent or inflammatory language. I might have painted the picture much more eloquently and much more dramatically, but I fully recognise that it is a problem which has been recently very adequately dealt with in Great Britain and only very recently dealt with there, and that it is a problem which requires the same detached consideration in this country. The burden of my appeal to the Minister is to set up a small commission of persons interested in these problems with the object of submitting a scheme to him, and then to seek the co-operation of all Parties to bring pressure to bear on his colleague, the Minister for Finance, to provide the necessary money. I would be doing less than justice to my cause, however, if I did not say that there is in our midst a really grave scandal. I think that everyone concerned with these questions is agreed that there is a problem urgently requiring reform. An exactly similar problem existed in England up to about 18 months ago, when they passed the Children Act of 1932 or 1933, perusal of which I commend to anyone who is interested in these matters. A very interesting commentary upon it was recently published, the perusal of which I recommend to anyone interested in these matters. We have no reason to chide ourselves on having fallen far behind the measure of reform existing in regard to this matter in other countries. We have not, but we may. Reform was long overdue in England. It had taken place to a very large extent in America as a result of special circumstances that existed in the City of Denver and the State of Colorado where the movement for reform started. We are two or three years behindhand in the removing of this urgent evil in this country. I appeal with confidence to the Minister to put his hand to the work now with the intention of making an end of this problem in this country once and for all before the end of 1934. I think I can assure him that any co-operation he may require to that end will be gladly forthcoming from every part of the House.

Donnchadh O Briain

Níor mhaith liom an ócáid seo a scaoileadh tharm gan cúpla focal a rádh i nGaedhilg i dtaobh na ceiste atá ós comhar na Dála fé láthair. Sa chainnt a rinne an Teachta O Diolúin bhí sé ag tabhairt comhairle a leasa do na Teachtaí ar na binnsí seo. Is breaghan rud an deagh-chomhairle gan aon amhras ach is fearr i bhfad an deagh-shompla. Tuigim gur Gaedhilgeóir an Teachta O Diolúin. Do b'fhearr míle uair a dheimhneochadh sé dúinn annso agus do phobal na tíre chó dáiríribh is atá sé i dtaobh aithbheochainnt na Gaedhilge dá labharfadh sé roinnt Gaedhilge sa Dáil anois agus arís.

Molaim an t-Aire go mór toise gur i nGaedhilg a chuir sé a thurasgabháil ós ár gcomhair. Deir an t-Aire ná fuil sé sásta leis an dul ar aghaidh atá dá dhéanamh ins na bunscoltaibh maidir le haithbheochaint na Gaedhilge. Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil aoinne go bhfuil suim á cur aige i scéal na Gaedhilge sásta go bhfuil dul ar aghaidh chó maith agus do b'fhéidir déanta go dtí so. Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil na múinteóirí féin—an dream acu atá ag obair go dúthrachtach dílis ar son na teangan —sásta leis an méid atá dá dhéanamh.

Maidir liom féin, ní dóigh liom go n-eireochaidh leis an nGaedhilg fé mar ba mhaith linn go n-ísleochthar an Béarla, agus go mbainfear de chomhacht na teangan gallda san. Caithfear cuimhneamh i gcomhnuidhe go bhfuil an dá theangain ag troid i n-aghaidh a chéile, go bhfuil an lámh uachtair ag an mBéarla go fóill agus go bhfuil an Ghaedhilg i mbaoghal a caillte. Dá luaithe a leigfear d'aon mhúinteóirí in aon áit sa tír gur mhian leo é dhéanamh an Béarla a chur uatha ar fad is eadh is túisce a chífimíd an Ghaedhilg ag dul ar aghaidh mar ba cheart agus ag dul inuachtar.

Maidir le scéal na Gaedhealtachta, is maith liom go mór an socrú atá déanta ag an Aire chun deontas speisialta a thabhairt d'aos óg na Gaedhealtachta go bhfuil an Ghaedhilg mar theangain teaghlaigh acu. Im' thuairim féin déanfaidh an scéim san morán chun an Ghaedhilg a chosaint sa bhFíor-Ghaedhealtacht. Is clos dom go bhfuil maitheas dá dhéanamh cheana féin ag an socrú so atá luaidhte agam imeasc túismightheóirí a bhí pat-fhuar go maith roimhe seo i dtaobh Gaedhilg a labhairt leis an aos óg. Ba mhaith liom a fhághail amach ó'n Aire an bhfuil sé sásta le staid na Gaedhilge i gcursaí Gairm-Oideachais. Ní dóigh liom féin go bhfuil an scéal chó maith agus ba cheart é bheith. Tá eagla orm go bhfuil a lán teagascóirí óga ná fuil Gaedhilg acu agus ná fuil aon iarracht á dhéanamh acu chun í fhoghluim. Is cuma liom cé'n t-ádhbhar teagaisc atá ar siubhal ag teagascóir. Níl aon leath-scéal an t-am san de'n ló ag duine óg díobh a bheith gan Ghaedhilg agus tá súil agam go bhféachfaidh an t-Aire chuige go bhfoghluimeóchaidh siad í agus go gcuirfidh siad i bhfeidhm í.

Ba mhaith liom leis a fhághail amach ó'n Aire an féidir leis tuarasgabháil bhliantúil maidir le hobair Choisde na Leabhar a chur ar fághail. Tá a lán daoine a chuireann ana-shuim i n-obair an "Gúim" agus i gcúrsaí litiridheachta na Gaedhilge agus nách eol dóibh cad tá ar siubhal ag Coisde na Leabhar agus gur deacair dóibh eolas cruinn d'fhághail n-a thaobh. Ba mhór an rud é dá mbeadh tuairisc bhliantúil ó'n gCoisde sin le fághail againn.

Is gnáthach ana-chuid cainnte a dhénamh gach bliain faoi'n nGaedhilg nuair a bhíonn an Meastachán so i gcóir Roinn an Oideachais ós comhair na Dála. Moltar mórán rudaí mar mhaithe le haithbheochaint na teangan, ach is baoghal liom, gur beag atá dá dhéanamh sa Dáil againn chun aon deagh-shompla a thabhairt do'n phobal. Is anamh ar fad a labhartar aon Ghaedhilg sa Tigh seo, cé go bhfuil roinnt mhaith Gaedhilgeóirí i measc na dTeachtaí. Is deacair a chreideamhaint go mbeadh daoine dáiríribh i dtaobh an scéil nuair ná fuilid sásta an Ghaedhilg atá acu do labhairt annso anois agus arís.

Mara bhfuilid baill an Oireachtais go bhfuil an Ghaedhilg acu sásta í labhairt i n-obair an Oireachtais agus sompla maith a thabhairt do'n phobal i gcoitchinn, is deacair bheith ag brath ar an bpobal suim ró-mhór a chur sa scéal agus glacadh leis an gcomhairle go léir a tugtar dóibh i mBéarla. Ní beag san de'n turus so, a Chinn Comhairle.

Mr. MacDermot

Before putting one or two questions to the Minister in connection with his statement, I should like to congratulate him on two things in it. One is what he has done with regard to the development of physical culture in the schools which I agree with him is a subject that has been too much neglected in the past. The other is the inquiry he has set on foot as to the desirability of raising the school-leaving age. So far as the expense of that project is concerned, I cannot but feel that we should be using our money very much better in spending it on improving the education of our young people in that way than, say, in creating the new territorial Army, or in many other ways in which we are spending money at present. Of course I realise the force of what the Minister says as to the technical difficulties of providing additional education, apart from the expense. I do not know whether such material is available in the way of teachers in the country at present as would make us confident that, say, two extra years would be usefully employed by the young people if they were kept at school.

As usual, a very large part of the Minister's statement, and the major part of the discussion on that statement, has turned on the Irish language. There is only one question that I should like to ask with regard to that and that is whether the continuation and technical education is given at all in the Irish language and, if so, with what result; whether it is found that that sort of education and education, say, in domestic science and domestic economy for girls is something that can be adequately given through the medium of the Irish language.

While we hear a great deal every year about the Irish language we hear little or nothing about other aspects of national culture which I personally consider are of even more importance. I am continually struck by the extraordinary ignorance of the mass of the people of this country of Irish history and also of Irish music. I see that the Army band has been performing for certain schools in the Dublin area. I do not know whether their performances have been so arranged as to familiarise the children of these schools with Irish music in particular—I hope they have. At any rate it is not possible to send the Army bands all round the country to perform at schools. I should like to hear whether the Minister does not think it feasible to do a great deal more than has been attempted in the past to familiarise the children of this country with the traditional Gaelic melodies. Possibly the humble and useful gramophone could be made to take the place of the Army bands in the country districts. I really feel that an effort ought to be made as the present state of affairs is disgraceful. I find that even in towns, on the occasion of political demonstrations, when people are parading about the streets and want to sing something, they do not know any Gaelic melodies to sing. You hear them singing the "Soldiers' Song" without knowing the words, as a rule; and of course the "Soldier's Song" has nothing Gaelic about it. Or you hear them even singing songs like "Daisy Bell." How that music-hall song of the nineties comes to be alive in Ireland I do not know. You hear them singing "Daisy, Daisy, give me your answer do," which has nothing to do with any political issue. It is really a mysterious and disgraceful thing that the people of the country do not seem to know the good old Gaelic melodies or the words that go with them. I wish an effort could be made to spread a knowledge of these things.

The same way with Irish history. Whatever knowledge men may have in Ireland of what has occurred since 1916 they seem to know little or nothing of what occurred before that. It is not merely that they know nothing about the general philosophy of Irish history—that is bad enough— but they are not even familiar with the lives and opinions of the most picturesque figures of Irish history. They may know about a certain number of isolated incidents—battles and slaughters—but, speaking generally, I do not believe there is a country in Europe that has less knowledge of its own past history than Ireland has at present, in spite of the fact that, I think, all the instincts of the Irish race are such as would lead us to expect that we would be familiar with our past history; that we would cherish the memory of our great men and of all sorts of events which seem to be now forgotten.

I cannot help thinking that too much stress has been laid on the language to the exclusion of other things that go to form Irish culture. My personal belief is that the language is the least important of several factors that go to the making up of Irish mentality. It is not that good histories do not exist—they do. If we are speaking merely of the period since the Norman invasion, we have in Lecky's book an almost ideal impartiality. I do not suppose a more impartial history has ever been written in any country than Lecky's. It is extraordinary how much Lecky's book contains. Although it is called a history of the eighteenth century it goes back to the Norman invasion and gives a magnificently impartial picture of everything that took place in Ireland since. We have another view of history in Douglas Hyde's book on the history of Irish literature. Although called a History of Literature, it is much more than that. Like Lecky's, it is really an encyclopaedic book. The more you read other things, the more you find that everything is in Lecky and Douglas Hyde between them. I read the other day "Hidden Ireland" by Corkery which had been warmly recommended to me and I could not find a single thing in it that had not been already said better by Douglas Hyde in his book. It seems to me that we are not familar as we should be with the masterpieces that do actually exist. I should like if the Minister, when making the annual statement to us on the progress of education in this country, would always tell us as much as he can about the progress of education in Irish music, Irish literature and Irish history as well as in the Irish language.

Cormac Breathnach

Ba mhaith liom tagairt do dheanamh do thairisgint do chur an Teachta Ua Maolchatha os comhar an Aire i dtaobh togáilt scoile Ghaelach í Ráth Maoinis. Is maith an tairisgint sin agus ba mhaith liom cuidú leis ach tá a lán glaodhachanna ar an airgead atá ann í gcóir togáilt tithe scoile. Ní mór do mhúinnteóirí muineadh fé láthair i mbotháin ar fúd na tíre agus bfearr airgead do chaitheamh chun feabhas do chur ar na tithe seo ná ar thogáilt nua-scoileanna fé láthair.

Dhein an Teachta Ó Diolún a lán cainnte mar gheall ar an nGaeltacht agus aontuím le furmhór dá ndubhairt sé. Níl aon amhras ná gur ceart cuid mhór de na múinteóirí fháil sa Ghaeltacht. Do bhí a lán cainnte maidir leis an rial a tugadh isteach mar gheall ar na múinteóirí ó'n bhFíor-Ghaeltacht. Deirtir nach féidir duine fháil ach amháin ón Ghaeltacht nó ón bhFíor-Ghaeltacht—ach na daoine atá á rádh san, níl aon ciall le na gcainnt. Do dhein an Teachta MacDiarmuid tagairt do chursaí staire agus dubhairt sé gur cheap sé ná raibh aon tír sa domhan in a bhfuil níos lugha measa ar stair ná an tír seo. B'féidir go bhfuil an ceart aige. Do chuireadh na scoileanna náisiúnta ar bun chéad bliain ó shoin agus ní raibh stair a mhúineadh ach le fiche blian. Ach mar a bhfuil an stair go maith ag muinntir na tíre seo, tá rud aca chó maith le stair, sin, seannchas, agus ní dóigh liom go bhfuil tír san Euróip a bhfuil an oiread measa agus eolais ar sheannchas is mar atá sa tír seo. Tá seannchas á fhoghluim ag na leanbhaí. Sin rud ná cuireann an Teachta MacDiarmuid a lán suime ann.

Aontuím le morán dá ndubhairt an Teachta Ó Briain agus ceapaim go bhfuil an ceart aige, mar gheall ar an troid sa tír seo idir an dá theangain agus' sé mo thuairim leis nach mbheidh an buadh ag an nGaedhilg go dtí go mbeidh deire leis an troid sin agus an Ghaedilg i n-uachtar. Do chuir an Aire scéim scolaireachta ar bun le h-aghaidh na Galtachta agus maidir leis an scéim sin ní aontuím gur ceart Bearla a bheith riachtanach. Ní féidir liom fheiceál—agus dubhairt é seo leis an Aire cheana agus deirim arís é— cionnus tá aon chiall leis sin. Cur í gcás an leanbh a thagann fé'n scéim sin, ní mór dó Béarla labhairt; ach ní h-é sin an rud a dhein Sean Buidhe nuair a bhí sé ag iarraidh an Béarla do chur in uachtair sa tír seo. Do chuireadh iachaill ar dhaoine Béarla labhairt agus ní raibh aon tagairt do Ghaoluinn. Cur í geás má cuireann leanbh ó'n mBleascéid Mór isteach ar ceann de na scoláireachtaí seo, beidh air scrúdú sheasamh í Sacs-Beurla. Níl annsan ach iarracht ar Bhreac-Ghaeltacht do dhéanamh do'n bhFíor-Ghaeltacht—nídh atá in aghaidh polaisaí an Rialtais maidir le aithbheochainnt na teangan. Ní cuirfear an meas ceart ar an nGaoluinn go dtí go mbeidh slighe ceapaithe a chuirfidh ar chumas Ghaedhil an post is aoirde sa tír seo do ghnothú agus gan aon eolas aige ar Shacs-Bheurla. D'iarr an Teachta O Briain ar an Aire gan Béarla do dhéanamh riachtanach agus ba mhaith liom cuidú leis 'san iarracht san, go háirithe, 'sa Ghaeltacht.

Dubhairt an t-Aire annso nuair bhí an Meastacháin seo á chur os ár gcomhar aige ná raibh sé sásta le staid na Ghaedhilge 'sna mbun-scoileanna. Níl éinne sásta agus tá fáth ann maidir leis sin. Im' thuairim, 'sé fath is mó ná an clár a bheith ró-throm. Tá an iomad adhbhar leighinn ar an gclár. Do cheapad an clár sin 'sa bhlian míle naoi gcéad is fiche agus bhí sé i bhféim 'sa scoileanna ar feadh cúig bliana. Cuireadh Comhdháil ar bun sa bhliain 1926 chun fheabhas do chur ar an gclár agus cheap daoine go gcuirfí an feabhas sin air. 'Sé an rud a bhí ó na múinnteóiri ná an chár do laghdú ach ní deineadh é sin. ‘Sé an rud a deineadh ná an clár do thromú mar deineadh adbhar leighinn riachtanach d'eoluidheocht tuaithe. Anois, ní féidir linn dul chun chinn ar an tslí sin, má tá uainn an Ghaedhilge do chur ar aghaidh. Tá an Bearla níos aoirde ins na scoileanna indiu ná bhí sé fiche blian ó shoin agus ní h-é sin a bhí uainn nuair do leagadh amach an scéim chun an Ghaedhilge do chur in uachtar. Tá níos mó maitimeatica anois ná bhí fiche blian ó shoin. Nuair bhí mé i mbun scoil ní raibh agam le deanamh ach na "Trí R's." Bhí mé ag cainnt tamaill ó shoin le beirt bainisteóir scoileanna idir-mheánach agus dubhradar go raibh siad ar aon aigne go mbfearr leo go mór an tsean-chlár ná an nua-clár— an tsean-chlár plus an Ghaedhilg—mar go bhheach cruinn-eolas ag na mac leighinn ar ghramaideach agus ar Bhearla agus ar áireamh. Ní mar sin atá an scéal anois, dubhradar, mar níl cruinn-eolas ag aon mhac leighinn ar aon nidh de bharr a bhfuil le déanamh aige agus dá bhrigh sin, ba cheart an clár do chumhanngú. Tá sé ro-leathan ar fad Tá sin á radh ag na múinnteóirí le blianta. Ar chomhairle an Aire, do chuireadh coiste ar bun chun an cláir do scrúdú. Bhí beirt cigire agus triúr múinnteóirí ar an gcoiste sin ach níor tháinic pioc as. Mar dubhras, bhí na múinnteóirí ag lorg slí chun an chláir do laghdú ach ní raibh na cigirí sásta agus thuit an coiste ar lár. Ba mhaith liom go mór dá gcuirfeadh an t-Aire in úil do'n Dáil, nuair a bheidh sé ag tabhairt freagra ar an ndiospóireacht seo má tá sé sásta leis an gclár? An gceapann sé go bhfuil sé ró-throm mar ní fuláir go bhfuil an tuairim sin aige mar atá ag gach éinne. Ba mhaith liom leis dá nabradh sé cad é an tsúil atá aige go mbeidh na múinnteóirí in ánn gach a bhfuil ar an gclár do mhúineadh agus do na mic-leighinn é d'fhoghluim? Ní féidir é a dhéanamh.

Do dheineas tagairt anuraidh do chigireacht agus dubhart go raibh na múinnteóirí mí-shásta leis an gcigireacht agus ná raibh na cigirí féin sásta leis. Do réir mo thuairimse, níl feabhas taghtha ar an sgéal. Tá an t-amhras ceana ann agus a bhí ann anuraidh idir an oifig agus na cigirí agus na hoidí, agus is mór an truagh é sin. Níl a fhios agam cé tá cionntach leis sin. Níl aon amhras ná gur dhein cuid de na cigirí obair ioghantach ins na scoileanna. Ach tá saghas aigne, is dóigh liom, san Óifig nó san Aireacht nach déanfad na múinnteóirí pioc ar bith go dtí go mbeidh duine eigin dá ngriosú. Bhí an aigne sin ann le blianta agus cheapas gur cuireadh deire leis ach níor chuireadh. Tá sé chó láidir anois agus bhí sé fiche blian ó shoin. Níl aon chiall le na leithéid sin de rud. Ba cheart céad míle fáilte bheith ag na múinteóirí roimh na cigirí agus go dtí go dtagann an lá san sa tír seo, ní bheidh dul chun chinn ann, mar gheall ar oideachas sa scoileanna. Tagann an cigire isteach san scoil agus caitheann sé lá ann agus annsan cuireann sé tuarasgabhail insteach ag cur síos ar na rudaí mí-chearta—doréir a thuairime—sa scoil. Scríobhann sé do'n Oifig agus bíonn scrudú agus mar sin de ach ní bhíonn ag an gcigire caoi ar an obair is dúal dó do dhéanamh, sé sin, dul isteach san scoil agus obair choithcheanta na scoile do rialú ar an slí ceart. Ní leigheasfear aon droch-scoil ar thuarasgabháilí cigire. Ní do chigire dul isteach sa scoil agus an obair do dhéanamh ann ar feadh lae, nó seachtmhaine nó míosa—má tá san riachtanach. Níl aon mhaith san gceistiucháin—ins na litreacha seo is gnáth a bheith síos suas idir an Oifig agus an bainistéoir.

Deintear tagairt go minic do cheist an teastais 'sna bun-scoileanna atá ar siúl ar feadh roinnt bhlian. Tá cuid de na múinteóirí ag dul i naghaidh an teastais san. Ní aontuím leo agus ní aontuionn, is dóigh liom, Ard Choiste na Múinnteóirí. Tá cúis gearráin ag cuid de na mú innteóirí. Deireann siad go bhfuil na ceisteanna ró-dheacair agus go bhfuil cuid de na ceisteanna greannmhair. Aontuím leis sin. Do cuireadh coiste múinnteóirí agus cigirí ar bun chun cheisteanna somplach do leaghadh amach, ach ní deirneadh é sin ach aon uair amháin. Ba mhaith liom coiste den'n tsórt san do chur ar bun arís chun an rud chéana do dhéanamh mar níl aon amhras ná go bhfuil cúis ghearráin ag na múinnteóirí. Dá bhrigh sin, molaim do'n Aire an coiste sin do chur ar bun chun cheisteanna mar sin do leagadh amach. Déanfaí maitheas do na múinnteóirí, do mhúineadh agus do'n dteastas. Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil a thuille le rádh agam ar an Meastacháin seo, ach a rádh gur cúis athais dom-sa an Aire do cloisint ag cur in úil do'n Dáil ná raibh gearrán aige mar gheall ar gnath dhul chun cinn oideachais. Ba mhaith liom go gcuirfid an t-Aire suim i gceist an chláir. Ba cheart dó é do lagdhú mar tá sé ró-throm fé lá their agus ní féidir leis na múinnteóirí leanamhaint leis.

Minister for Education (Mr. Derrig)

Deputy Breathnach has referred to a number of matters which have received some attention at the recent congress of the Irish National Teachers' Organisation, and perhaps it is advisable that I should make brief reference to some of the points which he has raised. I think that even the most vehement defender of the rights of the teachers or of the claims of the teachers must admit that the Minister, who is the person responsible for the very substantial expenditure of several millions of money, is bound to see that as far as possible the citizens, the country, and, above all, the children, get the advantages for which we are paying out that expenditure. I think also that the Minister, since he is in touch with the administration, with both the teachers and inspectors, and also with the managers of schools, is in a position which few laymen occupy. During his tenure of office he has unlimited opportunities, I might say, for getting information on any point which he thinks may be of interest or of importance from the educational point of view. Therefore, if the Minister chooses to call public attention to certain aspects of educational policy, I think that it is extremely foolish and ill-advised for the teachers' organisation, or any other body, to find fault with the Minister on that account. May I say also that at no time, either now or heretofore, have the representatives of the teachers' organisation found the Minister or his officials in any way lacking in receiving representations from them, in meeting them, or in discussing with them problems of importance to them.

Cormac Breathnach

That is quite right.

Mr. Derrig

A good deal of the anxiety which appears to oppress the teachers, and to move them, arises from the old question of salaries. Any Minister who is responsible for the administration of education in this State must feel it his duty, must feel it to be to his interest, to the interests of the country, and of the different people concerned in education, that there should be security, and that there should be the best possible conditions for the teachers. For a very long period—generations, I think—the teachers were agitating about their salaries. During all that time there was a running sore—an old grievance —and it was undoubtedly difficult to make the progress which one would expect to make if the teachers were working under more settled conditions. In 1920 the teachers got a very good settlement from the British Government. The circumstances of the time, as I indicated when speaking on the superannuation scheme, were peculiar. The fact that the British Government at that time gave the teachers a particularly good bargain in regard to salaries does not at all mean that they would not have changed their minds. In fact, we have only to look at the conditions in Northern Ireland or Great Britain to realise the truth of my statement that there is nothing whatever to show that the British Government—this fairy god—mother, as the teachers seem to believe—would not have changed their minds. Cuts have been made in Great Britain and Northern Ireland. When it is borne in mind that, of the 9 per cent. cut which we have made, at least 4 per cent., even from the most favourable view that the teachers could take, is necessary as a contribution towards pension and, therefore, there is a balance of 5 per cent., which, even if you add the 10 per cent of 1923, compares very favourably, indeed, I think, with the cuts in other countries, having regard to our general circumstances here.

I should also like to say, although I dislike making comparisons of this kind, that the civil servants, for example, who are grouped very largely in the City of Dublin, have had, we must remember, to bear severe cuts in the form of reductions in the cost-of-living figures. I think that since 1920 the cuts in respect of those on a scale of about £300 a year would amount to over 27 per cent. of their remuneration. In the case of those under £300 the cut was actually greater. If the teachers, from the very beginning, since the new salaries agreement was brought in in 1920, were definitely put on the same basis as civil servants, they would, as I reminded them when speaking last on this matter, have had to bear certain disabilities in this connection; they would have had a reduction from time to time in the cost-of-living bonus attached to their salaries.

The next questions is with regard to the programme. For some time past a campaign, I think I might call it, has been made in the country that the primary school programme is overloaded. It is, undoubtedly, a fact that the primary school programme here compares unfavourably with the programme in other countries, by reason of the fact that we have a second language here. It is to the credit of the teachers that they have made such progress as has been made, having regard to the fact that whereas there is only one language on the primary school programme in other countries we have two languages here. The teachers themselves, I think, were largely instrumental in having the policy of teaching through Irish accepted here in the Free State. As far as I remember, they were largely instrumental in recommending that policy to the Minister for Education under the old Dáil. When the new programme was instituted in the schools the teachers were very adequately represented on the conference which examined the whole question, and they agreed to the recommendations.

What have I to say with regard to this question of whether the school programme is overloaded or not? All I have to say is that in spite of the complaints about Irish, about the school programme generally, and about the inspectorate, we find that—judging the situation by the rating which the teachers receive from the inspectors— the conditions are satisfactory. They might almost be said to be extremely satisfactory. 29 per cent. or 30 per cent. of our teachers are rated as highly efficient, about 65 per cent. or 66 per cent. as efficient, and about 5 per cent. as non-efficient. These figures, I think, go to show that the programme is not absolutely impossible. It equally goes to show that the inspectors are not extremely strict; that there is a fair standard, and that a fair standard is being achieved on all sides. With regard to rural science, it must be remembered that we are an agricultural country. While in other countries it can be argued that the trend has been to take rural science out of the primary school programme, and put it into the programme of the higher primary or continuation school, we do not like, having regard to our circumstances here, our love of the land and of the calling of the land, to take rural science off the programme unless we are satisfied that there is going to be a definite benefit elsewhere. In the second place, if we were to take rural science from the programme we should like to have something in the way of a substitute, which would bring the pupils into touch with the life about them, and give them a lively interest in the staple industry of the country. That is the position with regard to rural science. I left the matter entirely in the hands of the Committee composed of teachers and inspectors. I think there was not the slightest doubt about the teachers' attitude from the beginning.

Cormac Breathnach

What about the inspectors?

Mr. Derrig

The inspectors, in spite of the encouragement they received from the Minister, could not see their way to recommend that rural science should be dropped in the elementary schools. The encouragement they got from me was to do whatever they thought best, having regard to all the circumstances, and to the conditions under which the teachers were working. There is then the question of mathematics. Arithmetic, of course, is an exceedingly important subject in the primary schools, and there is always the question whether the teaching of arithmetic is as satisfactory as we should like. I think, however, that competent critics and those who know intimately the position in our schools are satisfied that, on the whole, definite progress has been made in regard to the teaching of arithmetic.

When the present primary programme was being prepared, authoritative evidence was submitted regarding the question of mathematical teaching in this country and its importance was stressed. It was felt that some groundwork should be laid in the primary schools in algebra and geometry, so that, apart from other benefits which such teaching would bring to the children, the path might be made easier for study later on. I have always had in mind the fact that the effort to revive Irish as a spoken language undoubtedly rests very largely with our schools. The responsibility rests upon the schools to do that work. It is through their instrumentality that we hope to achieve success. If I am satisfied that by lightening the school programme we can achieve more success in the way of advancing the use of the Irish language and improving the efficiency of the teaching in Irish. I can assure the House that I certainly shall endeavour to lighten the programme. The point is that at the moment there are two different schools of thought. We feel that as regards the teaching of mathematics it would be a definite step backwards if we were to depart from the idea that the Education Department had, when they instituted this new programme, of doing some ground—work, some preliminary study no matter how bare or how elementary—some elementary principles—in geometry and algebra. We feel it would be a definite step backwards if we were to eliminate these subjects from the primary school programme. This is a question that is constantly under examination and we are always anxious to get evidence bearing on it.

With regard to inspection, I think the figures I have given showing the rating of the teachers throughout the country indicate that the inspectorial system is not too rigid and is not unfair. It was stated that a young unattached inspector recently gave six months' notice of a general inspection to a teacher who had been for a considerable time rated as highly efficient. It has been the custom for such inspectors to give notice to the district inspector, and I think such action should have been taken in this case. No complaint was made to me personally with regard to this inspector or any other inspector, although there has been a mass of vague charges. But even if there is a single instance of that kind it must be remembered that inspectors are human and, as well as everybody else, they possibly have failings. Just like some teachers, for example, it is possible that inspectors make mistakes from time to time. But why should we attempt to indict the whole inspectorial staff because of an incident relating to a young unattached inspector? It seems to me there must not have been any real gravamen in the charge if we have to depend on an isolated instance of that kind. Here again the Education Office carried into effect certain recommendations as far as they understood them. I have yet to see in what particular we have departed from them. The Education Office definitely carried into effect recommendations of a committee on inspection in the primary schools where the teachers were represented and where they had a very large say in the making of the recommendations. The recommendations of the teachers now seem to be that general inspections as such should be dispensed with for a five years' period, except for the awarding of diplomas or where a teacher or manager applies for an examination.

Such a suggestion is at variance with the recommendations of the Committee on the Inspection of Primary Schools which sat in 1927. I do not take responsibility for that particular committee; I disagree with some of its recommendations, but as far as I have been able to ascertain, the recommendations of that committee have been carried into effect. The change might briefly be described as being the institution of a special inspection of the individual teacher rather than a general inspection of the school as a whole, which had been the practice up to then. Sufficient time has not elapsed, I think, to say definitely that this new system of inspection of the individual teacher has been a failure. It has been in operation only since 1928 or 1929. It took some time to get under way. Even at the present time the inspectorial staff are not satisfied that the new scheme has got a fair chance or that we have yet sufficient opportunity, sufficient experience of its work, to enable us to make a definite judgment upon it. The recommendations made at that time were that where teachers were men or women of well defined service and efficiency there was no need to have general inspections in their cases every year, or even perhaps over a number of years. But in the case of other teachers it was recommended by this committee that there should be general inspections from time to time. If I mention the classes of teacher in respect of whom the committee thought inspections should be made, I think every reasonable man will agree that there is a very good case for continuing general inspections. Where a teacher is on probation, where a teacher's rating is definitely not "efficient," where a teacher is young and has not got the five years recognised experience which enables him to be placed in charge of a school, or where a teacher's work appears to the inspector to have deteriorated—in these cases the committee recognised there was a strong need for an inspection.

I would like to know now we are to justify departure from these recommendations at this stage. There seems to have been an idea that the general spirit of inspection which the teachers may have thought would have been changed has remained and that there is still rather more of what they described as a defect in the system of inspection. We have it stated that the committee were of opinion that

"the defect in the then existing system of inspection appeared to be that too little importance was attached to the special aspect of inspection in comparsion with its aspect as a controlling agent."

The question is, where are we to draw the line in regard to this matter? How is the Education Office to make up its mind as to whether good work is being done and whether the necessary standard is being maintained and whether we are getting value for the huge expenditure we are making on education unless we have some such machinery as the inspectorate gives us which enables us to be in constant touch with the work in the schools? I wonder how long will the standard which we have at the present moment, whether we may be fully satisfied with it or not, continue if the inspectors were to be withdrawn for perhaps a five years' period? Rightly or wrongly, educational administrators in this country in the past believed that inspection had a definite function in the system and that the value of accidental and unanticipated visits largely added to the value of the work of inspection.

But even if we were to ask the inspectors to devote their whole attention to advising the teachers and helping them in their work, if we should ask them to give up their normal duties and to concentrate on this, I doubt if there would be any great improvement in the situation so far as the teachers are concerned. Because, although we have 13,500 teachers we have only 60 inspectors, so that even at the present time each inspector has to look after 220 teachers and perhaps 120 schools. If the inspectors were to devote half his energy or even his main energy to the work, shall I say, of organisation, of modelling lessons and giving illustrations of what should be done, how many of those 120 schools would he succeed in covering during the year and to what extent?

The inspectors, I think, realise that in this matter of Irish in particular it is their duty, and it is the policy of the Department through them, to give every possible assistance and to co-operate in every possible way with the teachers in overcoming the difficulties that the new programme brought with it, in regard to Irish. I think, however, if the teachers will examine the question they will see that it would be utterly impossible to do away with the inspector as a director, to some extent as an instrument through which we know what is going on in the schools, and as an instrument through which we modify policy from time to time—make suggestions to the teachers and amend where we see fit or where we see necessary. There is a certain amount of work other than school work thrown upon the inspector. There is examination work, the setting of papers and so on. During the past few years since this committee of inspection reported there has been a gradual development in the Department towards reducing the amount of that work upon the inspectors and increasing to some extent the inspectorial staff. That is still going on.

But I think it is not fair or just to have general charges levelled against the inspectors particularly by a body representing the vast majority of the teachers. I think it is most unfair and unjust that general charges without substantiation should be brought against inspectors. The inspectors are not in a position to defend themselves. They cannot write letters to the Press. They cannot pass resolutions. They cannot hold mass meetings to say what they think about the national teachers. Perhaps that is just as well! I would remind the teachers that the main body, perhaps the vast majority of the inspectors, have been recruited and at present are drawn from the teaching body. If the teachers have reason to complain of their inspectors then I do not really know what answer can be made to them. As far as I am concerned I am satisfied that we are getting the very best men and women available to us into the inspection service. I quite realise that these men and women have difficult work to carry out and I would only ask that they should get the same consideration from the teachers as the teachers demand for themselves.

There is also the question of the advisory committee to which I referred briefly last year. I do not know whether Deputy Breathnach referred to it, but I wish to state again that in spite of the fact that the matter has been further canvassed, and indeed a certain effort has been made to set up such a council, altogether apart from the Government apparently, I do not yet find myself able to agree that such a council is necessary, or that it is going to do useful work. I am still at a loss to know what the functions of this advisory council are to be, how it is to be composed, and what are to be the relations of the Minister with this advisory council. We hear a great deal about the desirability of taking the parents into conference and into council on matters affecting the welfare of their children. That, no doubt, is a very desirable development, but I would like to know how we are to select those particular parents—those who are to be represented on the advisory council? How are those representatives to be selected; what qualifications are they to possess?

As I stated last year, I think, to some extent, we have a very good substitute for the advisory council in this House, in men who are representative of the people and of the parents in particular. When discussing in Committee on Finance the educational expenditure for the year the Deputies here have an opportunity of discussing matters that they consider of importance to the parents or to the children. I fail to see how the parents can be more adequately or better represented on such a council than they are in this House at the present time. As far as I can judge, the main bulk of the members of the suggested council come from the teachers, both primary and secondary. There may be some managers or certain other educationists represented, but generally speaking, I think it is the representatives of the teachers who are mainly concerned.

If such a council were to have representatives of different educational interests in addition to the primary and secondary teachers, such as the universities, religious orders of men and women, the management of primary and secondary schools, training colleges, preparatory colleges, and so forth, is there not every likelihood that it would tend to become a mere debating society? How long would it remain in session and on what particular matters would it come to an agreement, or on what matters would it make any worthy recommendations to the Minister or the Department? I should also say here again that the Minister and the officials of the Department are at all times ready to meet representatives either of the teaching bodies or the other interests concerned. We do meet them and have met them. It has been our general practice to consult them on questions where we consider it was only right and fair that they should be consulted, for example, when we propose to make any changes in the regulations.

I think that such a council if it be set up eventually would concern itself very largely with recommendations regarding expenditure. I can assure the House, as I have already done, that there is no lack whatever of avenues upon which we can fruitfully progress if we can only secure the necessary finances and the necessary resources. There is the whole question of the maintenance and the cleaning of the schools, their upkeep, as well as the building of new schools and the replacement of unsuitable ones. There is the question of sanitary accommodation in our schools. There is the question of the raising of the school leaving age, the question of setting up higher primary schools and increasing the provision of scholarships for brilliant children from the primary schools to the secondary schools. There is the question of the better provision of scholarships for the university, of up-to-date modern equipment in our schools; arrangements for playing fields, swimming baths, gymnasia, and so on. All these suggestions would provide great improvements in our educational system, if they could be carried out, but they will all require money, and if the function of this advisory council were to be to pass resolutions and send them up to me asking that I should take steps to get ahead with this development or the other development, to spend money on this matter or the other matter, and if I were to be in the position, as I probably would be in a large number of cases and as any other Minister would, to see that the project, while very desirable, could not be undertaken in present circumstances since the necessary finances could not be provided, what was to happen then? Were the advisory council to say "We are not satisfied with this Minister and we would like to take over the control of the administration ourselves"? I should like to remind the House that we have had boards in the past. We had the National Board, responsible for primary schools, and we had the Intermediate Board, responsible for secondary education. These Boards were responsible definitely for the administration of these two branches of education in this country, and neither of them had been found to be satisfactory. Fault was found with both. In the future things may be different, no doubt. We have very greatly changed conditions at present, but so far we have not been given any clear idea as to what sort of advisory council is in mind or what would be its functions.

Deputy Dillon referred to the question of Gaeltacht students in the training colleges. I assure him that it is very far from my mind to apologise for any increase that may have been made in the number of these students under the regulations; but on account of the very misleading statements that have been made from time to time, particularly by teachers, who should know better and who must be acquainted with the regulations, I should like to advise the public that, in fact, as Deputy Breathnach himself has just stated, the number of candidates in the training colleges from the Gaeltacht is only a very small percentage. The position at present is that almost two-thirds of the candidates who are admitted to the training colleges come through open pupil-teacher system or through open competitive examination, and in these two classes the candidates from English-speaking districts particularly secure most of the places. They have to pass the Leaving Certificate examination and, in the case of pupil teachers, the Intermediate examination. In the case of the other third of the candidates in the training colleges who come from the preparatory colleges, only 40 per cent. of the places are being reserved for the Fíor-Ghaeltacht —only 40 per cent. of one-third. Really, the percentage, as I have stated elsewhere, is not at all out of keeping with the standard of merit which has surprised those who have intimate knowledge of the examination results— the standard of merit of these Gaeltacht students. When one realises that in counties like Donegal there are no great post-primary facilities for the boys and girls in the Gaeltacht—in fact, I think that in no part of the Fíor-Ghaeltacht itself have they opportunities for continuing in intermediate schools—nevertheless, even in the case of the 40 per cent. of one—third of the places in the training colleges which are being reserved to the Fíor-Ghaeltacht students, these students have to pass the Leaving Certificate examination. Accordingly, their parents have to go to a considerable amount of expense—I think, probably, out of all proportion to their means—to endeavour to get for their children the intermediate education which is necessary if, even under this system of preference, they are to find their way into preparatory colleges. I should like very much if we were able to go further and to say definitely that a larger proportion of these places would be awarded to students from the Fíor-Ghaeltacht, but there are very large numbers of parents in other parts of the country also who are endeavouring to get a secondary education for their children, who have had them prepared and who have had the teaching profession in view for them, and who have spared no energy and trouble in endeavouring to give them the best knowledge possible of the Irish language. In deciding what percentage of places we are going to give to the Fíor-Ghaeltacht students, we must have regard to the likelihood of suitable candidates coming from the Fíor-the educational standard we are likely to get. We cannot afford to depress that standard unduly and we must have regard to the claims of parents elsewhere, for example, the parents Deputy Dillon referred to, who, while not classed as residing in the Fíor-Ghaeltacht, nevertheless, may consider themselves as native Irish speakers. The question in regard to that particular matter of residence in the Gaeltacht that presented itself to me was: was I going to loosen regulations and allow people to come into the Gaeltacht, to have their children classed as residing in the Fíor-Ghaeltacht, when the school they were attending had not even a handful of native Irish speakers? Now, we have to go by schools in this matter. We class a school either as a Fíor-Ghaeltacht school or not, and if there is any nucleus at all of native Irish speakers in that school, so long as the inspector is satisfied that they come from Irish- speaking homes, I think that the smallness of the number has not militated against the school being considered a Fíor-Ghaeltacht school; but when the inspectors find that there is only a solitary individual or only two or three individuals in a school and that there is a doubt whether they come from really native Irish-speaking homes, I think it would be stretching the regulations unduly and would, in fact, be doing harm elsewhere if we were to allow these isolated cases to be classed as residing in the Fíor-Ghaeltacht. When we are definitely satisfied, under the bonus scheme or some such other scheme, irrespective of the school they attend so long as they are in the Gaeltacht area, that children come from native Irish-speaking homes and are native speakers themselves, I daresay it may be possible to treat them all on the same basis and give them all the same facilities in regard to these scholarships. At the moment, however, since the method of procedure is by prescribing schools as Fíor-Ghaeltacht or otherwise, the inspectors have no option, where there is not this nucleus of native Irish-speaking children, but to rule such schools out.

Deputy Mulcahy referred to the language flowing out from the Gaeltacht. As I pointed out last year, Sir, I cannot accept the position which Deputy Mulcahy has carved out for me —that I should be Minister for the development of the Irish language. Other Ministers and other Departments have their responsibilities also. Other Parties have their responsibilities and Deputies and the general public have their responsibilities in this matter if we are to make progress with the revival of the Irish language. So far as my personal opinion is concerned, however, I consider that while maintaining an active and progressive policy in the Gaeltacht and encouraging the people there to maintain the Irish language as the sole medium of intercourse as far as possible between themselves and the world outside, we should also go ahead in the Gaeltacht; we should intensify, as far as we can, the policy of Irish in the schools and endeavour to extend the use of Irish through the Government Departments and through the Administration as well as through the country generally.

Deputy Mulcahy referred to a number of minor matters, including an "A" school, where he said that English was being spoken at play. There is a difficulty in certain large schools, where a portion of the school has been set aside as "all-Irish" though the rest of the school, while not all Irish, is progressing— some subjects or some classes may be taken in Irish. We can take it, I think, in regard to all these schools that a definite effort is being made to have all instruction through Irish at the earliest possible date. But, in regard to those very large schools which have only succeeded in completely Gaelicising a portion of the school up to the present, there is the difficulty of maintaining a complete barrier between the children in that portion of the school and the children in the remainder of the school. Except for the fact that the children in the all-Irish school meet the children in the remainder of the school from time to time, I do not think that there is any serious ground for criticism. I think that all these "A" schools endeavour to carry out the policy with the right Gaelic spirit and with the right determination.

Deputy Mulcahy asked for details of the bonus system. We have not yet any details. We have not yet appointed the additional inspectors who will be required in view of the increased administrative work which will be necessary to carry this bonus scheme into operation. But I think the House can rest assured that the bonus will not be given easily. The inspectors will have to be definitely satisfied that the children are definitely native Irish-speaking and that Irish is spoken as the language of the home.

Deputy Mulcahy is still interested in the question of the inspectorate in the Gaeltacht and seems to have the idea that more work could be done by the inspectors in advancing the language. We have seen, as I have explained to the House, the nature of the complaints made against the inspectors. The inspectors' instructions are to co-operate with the teachers as far as possible. The House will remember that a definite age limit was fixed in regard to Irish when the new policy was brought in in 1922. Teachers who are approaching middle age are not expected to make the same effort as the younger teachers, but in regard to those younger teachers, who are either native Irish speakers, or who have gone to colleges where the work was done practically completely through Irish for a period of years, there seems to be no excuse for not expecting that Irish will begin gradually to take its place as a medium of instruction. That was the intention, and without inflicting unnecessary hardship on the teachers I think that with co-operation between both teachers and inspectors that purpose can be achieved.

Deputy Dillon would like us to have an inquiry with regard to this question of teaching children through Irish. I have visited a good many schools myself and it is really surprising what can be done when the teacher is either a native Irish speaker who is a good teacher, or even by a very skilful teacher with a fairly moderate knowledge of Irish. The progress which can be made in the infants' departments is extraordinary. I am not of course satisfied that we have always approached this question of bringing a new language into the schools, as a new language it undoubtedly was, from as purely a scientific standpoint as we should have done. I would be very glad indeed if from time to time our inspectors and teachers could come together, or our teachers themselves could come together, apart from the inspectors, if they so wished, to discuss these problems; to see whether, for example, the question of having only Irish in the infants' school from the first day that the child comes to the school is the most successful method, or whether a little English should be allowed for a while until the child becomes accustomed to the new atmosphere.

Mr. Dillon

This is a startling change.

Mr. Derrig

A great deal, of course, depends on the personality of the teacher. But I certainly would like to see in certain schools experiments being carried out to show the general body of the teaching profession what can be done and we would be very glad to give the teachers every help and encouragement. If the teachers, who were specially efficient and who found that their particular programme and their particular way of dealing with their problems had been successful, brought their own experiments and their own experience before us, we would be very glad indeed to try and bring the whole question before the public as it should be done through the medium of conferences of teachers and of educationists. Up to the present very little has been done in showing the public what really can be accomplished. I think the vast body of the public do not realise the very great advance that has been made in some schools where, as I say, the teacher had an unlimited command of Irish, or where, even with a moderate knowledge of Irish, a teacher was exceedingly skilful and in that way was able to take every advantage of his opportunities. We may be able to devise some scheme by which we will better appreciate the work that is being done by those teachers who have succeeded in making Irish the medium of instruction in their schools.

But, as regards the general principle of teaching children through Irish, I think Deputy Dillon will not contend, if a child is to learn the language in the way that we expect children to learn the Irish language—that it will, as far as possible, be native to them; that they will regard it as something which they acquire in their infancy; that they grew up with it—that the ages of four to eight are not, as has been stated by a distinguished educationist in Dublin, the best years for the acquisition of the Irish language. That, at any rate, is the principle that the programme has been carried out upon. The only way in which we can test whether that is the best age, or whether the complete Gaelicisation of the infant schools and the infants' departments as the first step—whether that is or is not the most satisfactory and most efficient way to carry out our purpose, we can only find out, I think, by trial and error. But, as I said, I should certainly like to see more experiments, particularly in our larger schools, because the public do not realise the good work that certainly is being done in some schools, and in order to give educationists this encouragement, to show them where the work is being done so that they can go and see for themselves, and when teachers' congresses come together we might occasionally have papers and discussions on topics of this nature.

As regards the question of handwriting which Deputy Dillon referred to, it is well known that when people look back on their youth and when they consider the best boy in the class, the best handwriting in the class and the best arithmetic in the class, and compare it quite arbitrarily with some particularly unfortunate example of handwriting and arithmetic of the present day, they say, of course, "Were not things so much better when I was going to school?" You can always go back on the old reports and find with regard to the three "R's" that inspectors were really never satisfied. We never can be, I think, really satisfied in education with the progress that is being made. No good teacher ever is satisfied. A good teacher will tell an inspector, as I have heard inspectors say, "Here is my class; I am not satisfied with them at all; I have not got the results I think I should have got." That is the right spirit. If we had more of that we would certainly have less complaint and less bickering about this question of the inspectorate. If from the beginning the teachers realised that the inspector's business was to help, that it was the inspector's business to co-operate and give advice, and that the commonsense thing to do was to tell the inspector the difficulties under which one is working, the attendance, the poverty of the children, and all those other circumstance which may be adverse, it would be very desirable. The very first instruction the inspector gets is to make allowance for all those adverse circumstances. Is the teacher a real enthusiast, as he or she should be, particularly in regard to this matter of Irish? I myself doubt and have always doubted whether there is any real benefit in asking people to teach Irish who have no interest in Irish, whose attitude seems to be, "Why all this unnecessary trouble about Irish? Is not the English language sufficiently satisfactory as a medium of intercourse? Does it not meet our requirements sufficiently?" So long as the teachers have not a better interest, and a more professional interest, if I may say so, in the development of the Irish language than I have noticed occasionally, I fear that we are not going to make the progress which we should like.

Deputy Dillon also referred to the question of industrial and reformatory schools. I do not know whether I really can compliment the Deputy on having stated his case in moderate terms.

Mr. Dillon

Oh you can. I was extremely moderate.

Mr. Derrig

Perhaps the fact that the Deputy has a personal experience and a personal impression about those gloomy and forbidding Georgian houses, and the dreadful effects they may have on one's character, making one terribly gloomy and all that kind of thing, has had an unduly depressing effect upon the Deputy. I do not think that the number of young children in the Summerhill place of detention can be very great. As the Deputy knows, I went there myself, having heard his complaint, and I found that there were very few younger children there, and the period of detention, as he has stated, was generally a week. Perhaps on rare occasions it went up to three weeks. We have since made arrangements to provide books, but I think the Deputy will realise that no matter in what place of detention you keep those children who have been neglected— some of them were pretty good scholars, but others had been somewhat neglected—and whatever the circumstances may be, it would be impossible for any teacher to make very much progress with them, except perhaps to keep them engaged for the period during which they are there. No definite educational result could be achieved, and in fact I think the Deputy is not correct in referring to the establishment as an educational institution. Summerhill place of detention should really be under the control of the Department of Justice, because the reason that we have this problem at all is, as the Deputy indicated, that when boys are on remand industrial schools will not take them. The industrial school manager feels that the boy might be sent to a reformatory and during the period when he is on remand no industrial school manager will take responsibility for taking him in. As a matter of fact even in the reformatory cases we have not such savage or vicious types of crimes as they have in other countries, and I certainly agree with the Deputy that it is a pity that in those matters we are not able to handle the problem in a somewhat more sympathetic and more modern spirit. This particular place of detention for example is under lay control. It is a particular problem, and there is always the difficulty that you are going to have only a small number of boys there, seven being the average, for a short period of time, and that it will be difficult to deal with them properly until they are committed finally and definitely to some other place of detention. We have this to congratulate ourselves upon, however, in this country, that most, or, I think, all the schools and reformatories—we have only one reformatory now but we used to have two—are under the control of Orders, of brothers or nuns or priests in some cases. The value of religion in the administration of those establishments is enormous. In other countries I notice that in spite of their very best efforts, and in spite of the most modern methods of administration when carried out on lay lines, the system was not at all effective, particularly in dealing with the girls. We have reason to congratulate ourselves here that we have those devoted Orders of men and women to take responsibility for those children. We are, in fact, going to set up a commission to deal with this question of reformatory and industrial schools.

Mr. Dillon

Hear, hear.

Mr. Derrig

It was mooted some years ago, and negotiations were carried on between the Department and the industrial school with reference to better educational provision, and better educational facilities in those institutions. About the time I became Minister a definite arrangement was made by which junior boys— boys I think were chiefly concerned— were given practically the full-time national school education, the work on the farm and in the workshops being confined practically altogether to the senior boys. That was a definite advance, and was very satisfactory. As far as education proper in those establishments is concerned, it is subject to supervision by our ordinary school inspectors, and they report to the Department. Apart from the particular problem that Deputy Dillon has raised with regard to the Summerhill place of detention, there is the question of the training—particularly the industrial training—of those boys and girls as well, and of what is going to happen to them after they leave the institutions. In that connection, I may say that from inquiries I have pursued I am satisfied that every possible effort is made by managers of industrial schools to keep in touch with the boys when they leave the schools, but some boys are of a nomadic and vagrant nature and they cannot be traced. They change practically every week, so it is nearly impossible to avoid unfortunate occurrences. If the statistics are examined however, in regard to either the boys or girls it will be found that a very small percentage indeed turn to crime. Even then, as Deputy Dillon said, the crime is often not very serious, and if properly handled those young offenders could, I am sure, be made into respectable citizens. There is also the question of the financing of those institutions. That is really one of the problems which the commission will have to examine. Apart from the fact that the Widows and Orphans Pension Scheme will affect the numbers in those institutions, there has been, up to the present, a serious reduction in numbers, with a consequent increase in overhead charges per unit. The managers of those schools are not satisfied that they can do better work, or that they can make the improvements which we should like them to make in order to provide for the better training of the boys and girls, unless we make better financial provision for them. One of the problems that the new commission will have to examine is in what way these schools will be maintained in the future. I suppose the House can take it that another effort will be made to try and transfer the entire responsibility to the State. Up to the present the local authorities have been paying portion and we have been paying the lion's share. We have the personnel of the commission practically completed and I think that the House can take it that the commission will start its labours at an early date.

Mr. Dillon

Could the Minister indicate to us the personnel?

Mr. Derrig

I have not the list finally prepared yet. Mr. Cussen will be the chairman and he is a very experienced man and has a great knowledge of all the different problems, as the Deputy knows. Before I pass from that question, I would like to say there is another problem which we had contemplated examining in connection with this commission; that is the problem of defective children. At the present time the responsibility would be really more on the Local Government Department than upon us to make inquiries as to the extent of that problem and what steps might be taken to provide a special type of education for defective children. We have not at the present moment sufficient statistics to enable us to say what is the extent of the problem. If we can get the information from the medical officers of health we may be in a position either this year or next year to institute some experiment in one of our Dublin schools for the special instruction of these defective children.

Deputy Dillon referred to the question of central schools. We have been considering a type of reorganisation of schools on somewhat the same lines as has been carried out in other countries; that is to say, the transference of children at the age of 11 plus from the elementary schools to post-primary schools. I think Deputy Dillon's proposition was really for amalgamation of existing national schools, the bringing together of all the children in a central school. To a certain extent that policy has been carried out and a most troublesome problem it is. In a great many of our rural schools the average is falling and there is always the difficulty that one or perhaps two teachers in the amalgamated schools may find themselves in a position of jeopardy owing to the falling attendance and they are in danger of losing their positions. If we combine a number of schools as Deputy Dillon says, we may be able to effect an economy in staffing, but I wonder how far we are going to get with the teachers' organisation in asking them to agree with us that the services of large numbers of their members should be dispensed with? Even then it would not be entirely an economy, because it is estimated that the cost of transport of the children from the outlying schools to the central school might run to £6 per child.

In addition to that there is the question of organisation. As I indicated in my opening statement, specially equipped and trained teachers will have to be provided for the higher schools and classes. Better organisation will be necessary. It is doubtful in the long run if we would have any real economy. The cost of transport at the rate of £6 per child over the whole country would amount to something like £1,000,000. If we could have an experimental scheme of that kind, we would be very glad to assist in having it carried into operation. If the Deputy had as much experience as I have had of the problem of dealing with redundant teachers, he would realise that it would be very difficult to carry the proposal through. We are trying to advance towards higher primary schools. It is a question of reorganisation which will take the greater part of a generation even with our best efforts and we are going to have a good many of precisely the same problems as I alluded to in connection with Deputy Dillon's proposal.

If we consider raising the school age even to 15 years, it is incumbent on us to make an effort to provide post-primary education in the rural and particularly in the Gaeltacht areas. The vocational schools are undoubtedly doing very good work, but I am not quite satisfied that we are getting the best results from vocational schools in rural areas. I was very keen on having vocational schools in rural areas, but I feel that if we could have a general reorganisation in connection with the raising of the school age and get a number of higher primary schools going in the more congested areas, we could then see what is the best way to advance. The more varieties of schools we have, the better. The higher primary school would really carry out substantially the kind of work the vocational school is doing. The intention is that it should be based on an agricultural economy, have a strong agricultural bias, and selected national teachers would either be called for special intensive courses or, while going through the training colleges, would receive additional instruction to enable them to carry out the work of teaching in these higher primary schools. The proposal is only being considered at present, but we have given it a great deal of consideration. Just like a great number of important educational innovations, it is largely a question of finance.

Deputy O Briain referred to the question of the standard of English in the Gaeltacht areas. That is a matter we are examining, but I think the Deputy must be aware that even amongst the native Irish-speaking population there is a desire that they should not be unilingual and have only Irish. They feel they should not be deprived of a knowledge of the English language, which will be so necessary for them in future years. There is quite a strong feeling in the Gaeltacht areas in favour of bi-lingualism. We have to bear that in mind.

Deputy MacDermot referred to a number of matters of general interest. I would like to take this opportunity of making a few remarks in regard to them. With regard to physical culture, we had last year a course of training for teachers in vocational schools, and we hope further steps will be taken by vocational education authorities to enable teachers in these schools to take out testimonials in physical culture or to enable them to attend courses.

Mr. Kelly

Are these boxing matches?

Mr. Derrig

No, they are not, but boxing matches might be included. With regard to national schools, we have had a number of very brief courses. The Army authorities were good enough to give us the use of their instructors, and successful courses for teachers were carried out in Irish and English. I think there will be no difficulty in the larger centres in getting further assistance from the Army in the way of providing instructors. We have not very many instructors in the country, outside the Army. We have a number of ex-Army men, but we have not any institution in which this instruction could be carried on in a specialised way, although instruction is being given in the training colleges. For the present, until some better arrangement is made for the provision of whole-time teachers of physical training, we shall have to depend on those part-time courses which are carried out by the Army authorities. I would be very glad indeed if we could have the co-operation of the teachers' organisation generally in organising these courses.

Deputy MacDermot asked whether continuation education is being carried on through Irish in vocational schools. It is, and very satisfactorily. We have a number of continuation schools, the head masters of which are Irish teachers, men of personality who have succeeded in making a striking success of their schools. We have in view that some of these continuation schools should be really on the same lines as the famous Folk Schools in Denmark—that is, that they would have definite national characteristics. It is difficult to see how they can be regarded as typical of this country if the Irish language has not a prominent place in the curriculum. Domestic science, although a very important subject, is a subject which has certain difficulties. There is a difficulty which presents itself in connection with a good many other technical subjects—the difficulty of text books and the need for Irish-speaking instructresses. But I am glad to say that in domestic economy very good provision is being made for instruction through the medium of Irish. I hope that in the course of time it will be possible to carry out instruction completely through the medium of the Irish language. I now come to the question of Irish music in schools——

Mr. MacDermot

Might I interrupt the Minister there? Do the domestic economy classes include cookery?

Mr. Derrig

Yes, cookery, sewing, laundry, possibly other subjects, but especially these three. On the question of Irish music in the schools, there is a lack of effort, I must admit, in regard to this matter. Colonel Brasé and the Army authorities were good enough to co-operate with us in having these concerts. Teachers and children have been at these concerts and I think they have been very well satisfied. A good deal of attention was given to Irish music as far as possible. But we must recognise that there is a paucity of music that is suitable for arrangement either for bands, orchestras or school choirs. If we had some organisation outside which could take upon itself the task of arranging these old Irish melodies to which Deputy MacDermot has referred and particularly arranging them for school choirs, it would be very useful work indeed. Gramophones and wireless can also be used to a certain extent.

Deputy MacDermot also referred to the teaching of Irish history. I have only to say in that connection that history if taught strictly as a text book subject can be very dry and terribly disappointing, particularly to the children. But the imagination of the children can be stirred if, as I said, with regard to the language question, the teacher is an enthusiast, if he is interested and has personality, if he impresses upon his pupils the lessons which he takes from history or the interpretation which he places upon historical characters. If he has personality he can add life to his lessons and illustrate in a striking manner the subject of history. Then these lessons will be entirely different from what they would be where the teacher adheres strictly to the text books and never undertakes to carry out a course of general reading or to do a little research for himself in regard to his local barony.

Since the introduction of the new programme we have at all times emphasised the importance of the study of local history. If there is a lack of knowledge in our national schools, a lack of the knowledge of the old tribes, clans, traditions, and historical associations, connected with the septs in any particular neighbourhood, then, I do not think the blame can be placed on the Education Office. It may be that there is a lack of easily accessible matter, but if one goes through a museum or a library, or if one could only go to the trouble of looking through the vast amount of material that has been collected in recent times, one cannot complain of the shortage of material. This is a matter in which we should have a great deal of help through the voluntary efforts of associations outside. I would say to the Deputy with regard to the books to which he has referred that we have an interesting example at the present time of a writer who was very successful, I think—or should have been very successful—as a novelist in English and who is now writing novels in Irish.

Mr. Dillon

What is his name?

Mr. Derrig

McGiollaIasachta or Lysaght. I think I have dealt with the main points that have been raised. Although it is not really our province to give a resumé in the annual report, if Deputy MacDermot looks at it, I think he will find that a good deal of attention is given to any activities which are connected with the schools. The musical side, for example, I am sure will get more attention in the future and possibly more may also be done with regard to local history and the forming of historical associations. But the important thing is to remember that the main elements and fundamentals of education have first to be attended to. In addition to undertaking this overwhelming task of restoring the language, if we ask the teachers to take up a great many other matters which may seem to us important, and upon the preparation of which time and energy may be required, we may not get quite as much co-operation as we require.

Mr. McGovern

I should like to ask the Minister if he has any information to give on the question of the standardisation of school books in primary schools? More than 75 per cent. of the children and their parents find it a very difficult matter to keep buying those books. The books are being changed from year to year, but if the books were standardised, say for a certain number of years, the books could sometimes be used by other members of the family in succeeding years. perhaps the commission which the Minister has referred to would consider that matter, and if the Minister has any information people will be very anxious to know what decision he has come to.

Mr. Derrig

Educationists at the present time dislike being confined to particular standard books. I think the Deputy will find that if we are to prescribe a particular book or set of books a great number of defects, either real or otherwise, will be discovered in them. The tendency of the present time has been to give teachers more liberty than had been the case under the old "results" system, and as part of that liberty they have been given a certain amount of freedom in the choice of books. You have also to take into account the effect on the publishing houses, since the old National Board gave up producing books of their own and selling them. I remember that when the National Board was first started they gave out books that were, I think, practically free, and the English firm of Murray complained to the then Minister about it, and, as a matter of business, the Board had either to give up selling or to increase the price of their books so as not to be in unfair competition with publishing firms. We have that problem to-day. The publishing companies have been publishing books and unless we take over the publication work altogether I find great difficulty in seeing how we can go back to a standardised set of books. There are different teachers and different educationists preparing books. These books are all suitable for schools and if publishing houses approach us and ask us to put these books on the list and if the books are suitable for particular standards, we cannot very well refuse. So that, as regards the particular problem of the standardised books I think it is extremely difficult.

We have been thinking of bringing out a standardised reader, but there again, even in the case of an English reader, there are different tastes. Different schools like to have different types of readers. City schools prefer a reader dealing with city topics, whereas schools in a rural area might like lessons on different topics, and children in schools in a fishing district might prefer another kind of reader and so on. We have made inquiries, of course, with regard to the question of free school books and found out that if we were to supply books free to all our primary schools it would cost about £100,000 a year. Then, again, there is a very strong body of opinion in the country that thinks we have gone far enough in the provision of facilities for parents in respect of their children, and while under the Constitution education is certainly guaranteed as being free, there is a strong body of opinion which considers that free school books should not be given. We can do it if we are in the position to provide the necessary finances and if we think, at any time, that it is the most useful way in which we can spend £100,000. There again it is a permanent liability and we have not been able to consider embarking upon it at the present time.

Mr. Haslett

Perhaps there is an aspect of that question raised by Deputy McGovern which might be put to the Minister. I think it would be fatal to provide just a standardised book for all schools. If I understand Deputy McGovern's point correctly, it is one which we hear often in country districts, and that is that a particular school, after it has selected a reader from the list, should stick to it for a few years. At least I agree with the Minister that it would not be a good policy to standardise one book for all and not to allow for selection. I think, however, that some order should be given to the teachers not to change every other year or so, because it might be the case that many families would find a difficulty in providing for these changes of books. That is the particular point I should like to emphasise along with Deputy McGovern.

Mr. Derrig

If a better book comes on the market we have no option, of course, but to place it on our list, and inspectors and teachers, I suppose, will recommend the better books. It is a very difficult question and we have not been able to find a solution, but we are gradually trying to reduce the number of books on the list and to take off those which we consider the least suitable. We will try as far as we can to make that list permanent and to reduce it to the smallest dimensions.

Mr. McGovern

Would the Minister consider some restriction on teachers who change books very often? Some teachers change books every half-year or every year. I think that they should be able to select a book suitable for a number of years instead of changing them too often. There is a general complaint as to this in County Cavan.

Mr. Derrig

I think that sometimes parents do not realise that it may be for the good of the child to change a book every year or so and not to use the one book all the time.

Mr. McGovern

It should be possible to keep the same book for the same standard or class.

Vote put and agreed to.