Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 7 Mar 1935

Vol. 55 No. 4

Public Business. - Vote No. 26—Law Charges.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim Bhreise ná raghaidh thar £7,438 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh Márta, 1935, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an PhríomhAtúrnae, etc., agus chun Costaisí Coir-Phróiseacht agus Dlí-Mhuiriroacha eile, maraon le Deontas i geabhair do Chostaisí áirithe is iníoctha amach as Rátaí Aitiúla do réir Reachta.

That a Supplementary sum not exceeding £7,438 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1935, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Attorney-General, etc., and to defray the Expenses of Criminal Prosecutions and other Law Charges, including a Grant in relief of certain Expenses payable by Statute out of Local rates.

The purpose for which this sum is required is very fully set out in the details of the Estimate.

Do I understand that the Attorney-General will have something to say on this?

No. I have said that the purpose for which this sum is required is set out in the details of the Estimate.

Are we to get no further details as to the reason for these extra charges?

Has the Deputy a copy of the Estimate?

The details are fully set out there.

There is an item for £100 for additional fees for counsel in connection with State prosecutions.

A number of very vexatious actions have been started in the courts by friends of the Deputy. They have not been conducted with conspicuous success and the State has been obliged——

You call these State prosecutions?

The State has been called upon to uphold the sanctity of the law and, in general, it has succeeded. Costs have been incurred in defending these actions and these have to be met.

I would prefer the Attorney-General to explain to us what the State prosecutions were.

But I am the Minister responsible for the Vote.

I wish the Minister would take his responsibilities more seriously than to ask, without any further explanation, or any attempt to discuss what the Attorney-General has been doing for all this money voted to him already or what service he is rendering in return for it. Personally, I think the manner in which the Attorney-General carries out some part of his work is almost criminal.

The Attorney-General is not being indicted under this Vote.

There follows from his inactivities and his partiality in certain cases a tendency on the part of some people in the country to think they can do anything they like and the Attorney-General is going to regard them, so to speak, with the blind eye. The Attorney-General started this financial year very badly and he seems to be winding it up just as badly. We have occasion from time to time to put questions to the Minister for Justice with regard to acts of violence carried out in the country with arms. We never got very much satisfaction from the Minister for Justice with regard to these things, but there are one or two samples of these cases in which the Attorney-General has a responsibility. I would like to put those matters up to him now to see what kind of defence he can make in respect of his general attitude.

On the 28th April last there was considerable disturbance in the town of Mohill. An attempt was made to take forcible possession of the Gárda barracks. A shot was fired in the street and a platform intended for use at a public meeting was taken and maliciously burned. The matter came under the notice of the Guards. They were involved and the matter came to be dealt with by a charge against certain persons. That charge was brought before the District Court and the facts of the case were brought out at that court. The barrister who represented the State in the court pointed out that men to the number of 50 assembled in Mohill on the night of the 28th and acted in a riotous manner. A shot was fired and an attempt made to take possession of the Gárda barracks, while a platform intended for a United Ireland Party meeting was set on fire.

What was the date of the occurrence?

The date of the occurrence was the 28th April.

Was it in 1934?

The 28th April, 1934. This only shows how little an impression some of this terrible violence makes on the Ministers who are responsible for seeing that order is kept in this country and that fair play is given to everybody.

Did the Deputy not put down a question to the Minister for Justice?

The police superintendent detailing what happened said that a particular man fired a shot in the air, some others carried hurleys and another man carried an iron bar; telephone wires were cut, 240 yards of wire were taken away and a number of baton charges had to take place.

Surely that is a matter for the Minister for Justice.

The superintendent said: "I have no hesitation in saying from information in my hands that there was an organised attempt to seize the barrack and run the Guards out of Mohill." The district justice, commenting on the situation, said that he had to express appreciation of how Superintendent Ryan had met and handled this dangerous situation in Mohill that night. The Guards' barracks would have been taken and burned to the ground but for his action.

When the Attorney-General had this case before him apparently his instructions were that if the persons charged with these offences recognised the District Court certain very serious parts of the charge would be withdrawn. For instance, the State Solicitor said: "If the defendants agreed to be tried by the district justice the conspiracy charge would be withdrawn, as also a charge against James Agnew of having in his possession a revolver with intent to endanger life and the charge against the other defendants of aiding and abetting Agnew to have in his possession a revolver." There was a conspiracy to invade the town of Mohill and, if necessary to their purpose of destroying the platform erected for the purpose of a political meeting, the persons were prepared to attack and, in the words of the district justice from the evidence before him, burn down the barracks there and they had firearms and iron bars in their possession; yet the attitude of the Attorney-General was that if these people would be so kind as to recognise the District Court all the serious aspects of the charge would be withdrawn. They recognised the court. I could not say what the punishment imposed was, but I do not think it was very much.

The Attorney-General

I think the punishment was pretty sharp, as a matter of fact.

I am sure the House will be interested to know if the Attorney-General has the information, what the sentence was and whether it was served.

The Deputy ought to have informed himself as to that.

I find it difficult to inform myself with regard to a lot of things going on.

The Deputy ought at least to have informed himself as to that.

I am trying to keep the Attorney-General straight. One of the ringleaders who evaded arrest for some time was subsequently taken. Superintendent Ryan was asked in court by the person charged: "Did you not ask me to do something, and did I not save the situation?" Superintendent Ryan said: "You did not, and if you were not there that night there would be no crowd." When that man was charged with these offences the attitude taken up was that if he recognised the court the serious part of the charges would be withdrawn. When you compare the attitude taken up in a case like that with the attitude the Attorney-General takes up in quite a number of other cases sent, for instance, before the Military Tribunal, there is a very definite stamp of partiality on the Attorney-General's actions. Personally, I do not think that he can escape being convicted in the public mind of that partiality. I am sure that this House would like to hear, and is entitled to hear, from the Attorney-General any defence he has to make and any explanation he has to give of his policy in this matter.

That was the way he began the year, and he is finishing it in this particular way. We shall take another couple of samples of charges being brought against people who were in possession of arms, the type of courts they were brought before and the results and consequences to them. In the beginning of December an outrage was committed in the Strokestown area and the Gárda carried out a series of visitations of a number of houses in the area that were described as Republican houses. In a hayshed attached to one of these houses a service rifle was found and two occupants of the house were charged, an uncle and a nephew, the nephew being the local captain of the I.R.A. The Attorney-General apparently considered that the case was not one to go to the Military Tribunal, that it would be adequately dealt with before the District Court. The District Court sat some time in December. The uncle appeared before the court and was acquitted. The nephew would not recognise any court like that. He was not arrested and he told the local sergeant that he did not recognise the court. The case against the nephew was adjourned and was again brought on in January. The sergeant swore that the person charged would not recognise the court and was not going to come to the court, and a fine of 10/- was imposed. A service rifle was found in a hayshed attached to the house of the person charged. He was not arrested, and the punishment inflicted, although he refused to come before the court or recognise it, was a fine of 10/-.

The Attorney-General

What is the name of the case?

Is not the Deputy getting dangerously near discussing a decision of the District Court?

I am only stating the facts. The name of the person fined 10/- was Anthony Mitchell and the court was held at Rooskey. We shall take another case.

Has not this to do with the decision of the court?

What is the Minister's point?

This is not a Vote for the Department of Justice.

I know it is not a Vote for the Department of Justice. I take it the Deputy's point is that the Attorney-General has a certain responsibility as to the court before which these cases will be brought for trial.

The Attorney-General is responsible for the prosecution.

I think the Deputy is suggesting that the District Court is more partisan than other courts.

I put the Deputy off that line and I hope he will not return to it. I think the Attorney-General has a certain responsibility under this Vote and that the Deputy is entitled to discuss the Attorney-General's Department on the Vote.

A fine of 10/- imposed by a District Court is just as hard on a person as a fine of 10/- imposed by a Military Tribunal and a sentence of 12 months imposed by a District Court is just as hard as a sentence of 12 months by a Military Tribunal. I am simply stating the fact that the Attorney-General thought fit to let that case go before the District Court.

If justice is done it does not matter which court tries the case.

The Minister may have his own opinion that justice was done in this case.

We cannot discuss that.

I am not discussing it. Then we come to another case. On 18th September, under certain circumstances, members of the Gárda visited the house of Patrick Quinlan near Glanworth, County Cork. They searched an engine room in an outhouse of Quinlan's farm and found in a milk can, part of a milking machine, an automatic pistol and some rounds of ammunition. The Attorney-General thought fit to send that case before the Military Tribunal. As to the type of man who was being dealt with, Superintendent Brady gave evidence that the prisoner was of very good character generally and there were no convictions against him.

As a result, what happened? Quinlan got nine months' imprisonment. Here you have a case in which a military service rifle is found in a hayshed in a particular house in the North Roscommon area. Then you have a case in which an automatic pistol and some rounds of revolver ammunition are found in a milk can in an outhouse on a farm in Cork. One case goes before the District Court and the person charged refuses to recognise that court. He is not brought to it by the Guards. The other person is brought before the Military Tribunal. There is no question of the recognition of the courts there, and when we come to write the end of the story one person who does not recognise the court is fined 10/- while the other gets nine months' imprisonment. I only quote these two cases but numerous other cases could be quoted from one end of the country to the other. Again, I do not think that the Attorney-General can excuse himself before the people of a charge of criminal partiality in the carrying out of his duties. I do think that some defence of some kind or another should be made by him in this House, by way of explanation of what his policy is in these matters. We should like to hear what he thinks of the success or otherwise of his policy, what is the objective of his policy, and how he is succeeding in attaining his objective. We are now only dealing with a period of nine months of his responsibility. But he has had two years' experience before entering on that nine months. There is no sign that he has changed his tactics in any way, and, therefore, I think we should have some explanation from him.

It seems to me that the Minister for Finance in introducing this Supplementary Estimate has not shown a feeling of very great courtesy to this House. I think that when a Minister introduces an Estimate he should be in a position to explain the necessity for the Estimate to the House. He should not come into the House, as obviously the Minister has come, in a complete state of abject ignorance. We ask him to explain what is the necessity for these extra charges and the Minister knows nothing about them. He gets up and makes the foolish statement that additional provision for fees to counsel, for conducting State prosecutions, etc., is occasioned by the State's defending actions brought against it. What is the necessity for extra prosecutions and why have they cost us so much more? Why is it there is this extra sum of £5,500 for fees to counsel? We want to know all that and we require something more convincing than the foolish explanation of the Minister. If the Minister's explanation were correct, or if the Minister would go to the trouble of ascertaining the facts, the Minister would see that the additional receipts anticipated in respect of costs and fees recovered by the Chief State Solicitor amount to the puny sum of £100.

If these actions brought against the State are all foolish, ill-considered, unfounded actions, as the Minister would have us believe, why is it that the extra costs awarded to the State have amounted to the wretched little sum of £100? Is that not a proof that in the cases that came before the courts, the law officers, the Attorney-General and his advisers, have proceeded in a most foolish fashion? They have brought prosecutions that they could not maintain. They have had motion after motion for certiorari granted in the courts and have had to pay the costs. Is that not the reason that the Minister for Finance is thoroughly ashamed of the Attorney-General and of the Attorney-General's counsel who advised him, that the Minister for Finance is afraid to give us the facts, if he knows them, which I very much doubt? I think this House is entitled to full particulars of the expenditure. What is the cause of this extra expenditure? Why is it that an extra £2,000 is required for various expenses of juries, defence of prisoners in case of murder, and miscellaneous expenses of State solicitors? The item for defence of prisoners in cases of murder would amount to a very trifling sum. I suppose 30 or 40 guineas would cover that item. Would the miscellaneous expenses of State Solicitors account for the balance?

We all know that a great number of cases have been brought before the Military Tribunal and the State Solicitors do not figure there at all. The State Solicitors do not come up to prosecute before the Military Tribunal, as they come to prosecute in the Central Criminal Court. The prosecution before the Military Tribunal is conducted by a special solicitor, not by the State Solicitor for the county. What is the reason then for that extra £2,000? Does it not come down to this, that the State has been saddled with an extra £7,000, the amount of this Supplementary Estimate, because the work of this Department is being shockingly badly done, because individuals have had to come into court again and again and have had to invoke the aid of the courts to set them right, to vindicate their liberties which the Executive Council and the Attorney-General have been endeavouring to invade? But, Sir, as far as these items of £5,500 and £2,000 are concerned they are trifling. They are of no consequence. The real sub-head which is of importance is the sum of £238 for the office of the Attorney-General. I say that as far as I am concerned, and, I believe, as far as every single member of this House who has any respect for law and order, any respect for the administration of justice is concerned, we shall give no vote, not merely for £238 but for one single farthing, which goes to support the office of the Attorney-General, when the Attorney-General is not doing the work which is his duty and when the Attorney-General—and I use these words advisedly—is shutting his eyes to crime.

There is one principle of law, Sir, which is thoroughly well established. Where one individual takes the life of another individual, he must justify the taking of that individual's life. That is the law. It is fixed. It is established right down from the very basis of our law. If you take the life of your fellow-man, you must justify that taking of life. You may partially justify it. You may reduce it to manslaughter, but, prima facie, whenever you take the life of a fellow-man, you are guilty of murder, and the burden of proof is on you to reduce that from murder to manslaughter, or to justifiable homicide, if you can justify it. Acting on that principle, Sir, a body of men, in Marsh's Yard, in the City of Cork, admittedly opened fire on a body of civilians—admittedly killed one of them and admittedly wounded six. Those men, in law, are guilty of murder until they have shown some facts—if they can show facts—reducing that shooting from murder to manslaughter, if they can so reduce it, or to justifiable homicide, if they can so prove it to be.

Now, Sir, let us take the facts of this case. There was a sheriff's sale— whether legal or illegal I shall not stop now to argue. At any rate, there was a sheriff's sale in Marsh's Yard in Cork. A small body of men—15 in number——

Are we going to get the facts in this case?

Yes, you are going to get the facts. You do not like hearing about the case, about which you made a speech before. You do not like to hear about the verdict of the coroner"s jury. The verdict of the jury was equivalent to a verdict of wilful murder. That is what I am coming to.

Do not get excited.

A Deputy

What happened at the coroner's jury?

A body of 15 men in a lorry got through the gate of Marsh's Yard. The lorry ran into a pen immediately in front of the gate, and there was brought to a standstill. Inside that yard there were then 15 unarmed men in a lorry and some three or four young men who came in in the wake of the lorry. That was the position in Marsh's Yard. At the outside, there were 20 civilians. There were very nearly 50 Guards. Within 20 seconds, according to one superintendent of the Guards, and within 30 seconds according to another superintendent, a cordon was formed outside the gate, and there was no possibility of anybody else coming in. Then you have the situation that before they could even jump out of the lorry you have these 15 men cooped up in the lorry opposed to 40, or nearly 50, members of the Civic Guards. It is ridiculous to suggest that those 20 men, if they had broken the law, could not have been arrested and prosecuted, under the law, without the use of revolver fire or rifle fire. What happened, however? I am glad, at any rate, to be able to say that not a single uniformed Guard disgraced himself that day.

I may call the Deputy's attention to the fact that we are not discussing the Civic Guards on this Vote.

I know, Sir, that we are not. I think, however, that I am entitled, at any rate, to say that much in favour of the Guards. If I may not say any further words in favour of the uniformed Guards, I shall say nothing, but I shall say this much, and this is the very essence of the matter: that not because there was any danger—according to their own sworn testimony—but because they thought danger might arise, and as a precautionary measure—those were the very words used by one of these Guards—they opened fire, and as a result they hit seven men and murdered one man. Now, some Deputy wanted to know what happened at the coroner's jury. The coroner's jury did not bring in a verdict exculpating these men. The coroner told the jury not to bring in a verdict of that sort. He said, in the course of his address, that it was a very unusual thing, and unprecedented in his experience, for a case like that to be left to a coroner's jury at all, and he expressed his surprise that the ordinary procedure was not followed and that, where life was taken in such circumstances, the men were not brought before the district justice. That was the coroner's view, and, following out the view expressed by him, the jury found that Michael Joseph Lynch died by bullet wounds. That was all that was necessary, so far as the coroner was concerned. They did not find that the man died by bullets fired by the Civic Guards and that the Civic Guards were entitled to take that course. Even if a verdict of that kind had been brought in, there would still have been the duty of the Attorney-General to have instituted proceedings, but such a verdict was not brought in, and no proceedings of any kind have ever been instituted against those men.

How is there going to be any respect for law, in view of such proceedings? How can there be respect for law? Is there any other place on God's earth where such things could happen? Is there a single person on the face of God's earth, responsible for the bringing of State prosecutions, who would close his eyes to proceedings of that nature? Here you had a case the facts of which are perfectly public. There is no question about that. Here you have a body of armed men, with the deliberate intention of shooting to wound and kill—it is not denied by them—who opened fire upon a small defenceless body of 15 or 20 unarmed men.

At £2 a head!

Is not that a case which ought to be investigated? Why has it not been investigated? Do we not know, and does not every single member of this House know, that if those men had belonged to a different association, if they had been political followers and not political opponents, if they had been political allies and not political opponents of the Fianna Fáil Party, those Guards would have been prosecuted forthwith.

Here you have got a case which, on the surface at any rate, is prima facie a case of murder, and you have the Attorney-General making himself an accessory after the fact of the crime by instituting no proceedings. Surely this House cannot stand for that doctrine. That is the doctrine which the House is asked to stand for; that the Guards can shoot down ordinary civilians, and that there will be no prosecutions if they do so; that the armed Guards are licensed executioners is the Attorney-General's attitude when he brings no proceedings in this case. Why has he not done so? We know. The law is not to be impartially administered. Touch a finger of people of another political view and proceedings will be taken. But the Guards can shoot down political opponents of the Attorney-General and he will not prosecute them. They are perfectly safe while he is Attorney-General. They have immunity from punishment. If an occurrence of this kind happened in any other country, if it happened in England or Scotland, would there not be an inquiry forthwith? Would there not be an investigation forthwith before the district justice? Would not the public be satisfied, if these men were brought before a district justice, if there was not a prima case for a jury, if these men did no wrong, that they would be acquitted? Why has not the Attorney-General taken that step? I charge the Attorney-General with this that he has not taken that step because he knows these men could not be acquitted. That is a charge I deliberately make against the Attorney-General. I charge him with having failed to discharge the duties of his high office. I charge him, in one of the gravest occurrences that have taken place in modern Irish history—the first time in which human life has been taken by the Guards—with deliberately acting in a partisan spirit and I charge him with degrading the high office that he holds.

The Minister asked me for some information which I find I can give concerning persons convicted of charges at Mohill. There were 34 men charged; ten were discharged, 13 had suspensory sentences of two months imposed. One man got six months; one four months; two three months; two two months; two six weeks and three men one month.

The Attorney-General

Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney prefaced his impassioned outburst by asking how was there going to be any respect for the law in circumstances which he proceeded to elaborate. I feel that there is considerable respect for the law in this State.

No respect for the law in the heart of the Attorney-General.

The Attorney-General

The Deputy asked how was there going to be any respect for the law if such conduct as he described could be attributed to the Attorney-General. I wish to say first that, in my opinion, the administration of justice here has produced respect for the law, and has taught all sections of the community that the law will be enforced, is being enforced, and has been enforced, so far as I have had control of it since I took over the reins of office. The Deputy developed his attack, and used rather strong language condemning me; suggesting that I have been a traitor to my duties; that I am not fit to occupy this position; and he based all that on one single case about which, apparently, he feels very deeply, and in which he was engaged for the defence at the coroner's inquest. The Deputy has mentioned this case several times in the House, and he has now had an opportunity to let himself go. He has let himself go with a vengeance. I make bold to say that the Deputy's description of what happened in connection with the Marsh's Yard incident is not correct, is not true, and is not a fair statement. I do not think it is proper for the Deputy as he has done to come forward and pretend to inform the House that he is giving an unbiassed statement of the facts and then to ask the House to judge whether, in the light of the facts, and his description of them, there has been failure on my part to take action which he says I should have taken. At the end of his remarks he said that if the incident which he purported to describe happened in any other country, in England or Scotland, the members of the Guards who used firearms on that particular occasion would be brought before a court of summary jurisdiction and a charge of murder would be preferred against them. As far as I am aware, I am sure the Deputy could, if he looked up this type of affair, find that there have been several instances in which firearms were used in putting down riot. On several occasions when the armed forces of the Crown have been used I defy the Deputy to produce a single case in which the charge of murder was levelled against police officers or the military responsible.

They can fire away.

The Attorney-General

The facts in connection with Marsh's Yard were not properly explained.

Did the Attorney-General ever hear of the case the King against Governor Ayres?

In the West Indies? The Deputy has gone to Jamaica.

The Attorney-General

As presented to me, the facts in connection with the Marsh's Yard incident differ very little—beyond some details of police information which did not appear at the public inquiry—from the facts known to the public generally, and particularly well known to the public in Cork. The Deputy has pictured a body of 15 young men innocently, without any intention of breaking the law——

I did not say that.

The Attorney-General

I said that the Deputy presented such a picture.

The Attorney-General

I am entitled to convey to the House my impression of what the Deputy said. He created a picture——

I said they broke through the cordon of Guards and through the gate.

The Attorney-General

Fifteen young men not bent on any mischief. The suggestion is that they appeared there and found themselves confronted by 50 uniformed Guards who to their astonishment suddenly opened fire upon them.

The facts in connection with Marsh's Yard incident have been gone into on three or four occasions, at the coroner's court and in the Circuit Court. The Deputy knows full well not only the details of all that took place, the whole surrounding circumstances, but he knows the background of this business in Marsh's Yard in Cork. He knows them probably far better than I do. He knows that for several months before threats were made by supporters of his Party from public platforms that guns would be used against the persons who were assisting at sheriffs' sales to see that cattle were sold.

I never heard it before.

The Attorney-General

The Deputy never heard that threats were used and speeches made which were published in the Press——

About using guns, never. I would like if the Attorney-General would quote one.

The Attorney-General

The Deputy is deliberately shutting his eyes to what has been going on in the ranks of his own Party.

Will the Attorney-General quote a single speech to that effect?

Or did he prosecute in any single case, and if not, why not?

The Attorney-General

In a debate of this kind Deputies opposite are in the position that they can raise any matter without notice. This has been raised without any notice whatever being given to me. I promise the Deputy that I will send him copies of speeches which were made, and which have been already referred to in connection with this case.

Certainly not at the inquest.

Will the Attorney-General explain why he did not prosecute?

The Attorney-General

Probably it would not be relevant to do that.

There was not a single reference to threats having been made.

The Attorney-General

I assure the Deputy that I take full responsibility for the correctness of what I am saying. Threats were made.

Why did not the Attorney-General prosecute?

The Attorney-General

As a matter of fact I think I did prosecute. I prosecuted Mr. Liam Fraher and another in Limerick.

For what took place in Cork?

The Attorney-General

The Deputy would know if he paid attention to what I was saying. I said that before the incidents in Marsh's Yard threats were made from platforms by supporters of the Opposition that violence would be used against those men who were going around to the sheriff's sales to see that the payment of the annuities would be enforced, and that those sales would not be made a farce as the Deputy's Party had apparently definitely resolved for a long period to make them.

The Attorney-General is now linking up the name of a particular man with a previous statement made by him that threats were made from political platforms that guns would be used against persons dealing with these sales. Will the Attorney-General say if Mr. Liam Fraher was charged with advocating the use of firearms from platforms in these circumstances, because that is what his words implied?

Let us be clear about this. Deputy Mulcahy made a speech without much interruption, and Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney made a speech without any interruption. Surely, the Attorney-General is entitled to make a statement on a serious matter of this kind without interruption?

Not at all. That is their conception of fair play.

On a point of order. The Attorney-General, in justification of something that happened in Cork——

That is not a point of order.

We will let the Attorney-General draw on his imagination as much as he likes.

The Attorney-General

I am not drawing on my imagination. Prior to the particular sale at which the unfortunate shooting incident took place there was another sale attempted in Cork, and, if my recollection serves me right—I think I am not drawing on my imagination in saying this—the mob, under the control and direction of friends of the Deputies opposite, practically beat the Guards off the streets of Cork. Was there no evidence of that at the coroner's inquest?

No. There was evidence that, on a previous occasion, a much smaller force of Guards was able to control an equally large crowd.

The Attorney-General

That is quite incorrect. There was violence displayed towards the Guards, and the Guards were almost overwhelmed.

No. They were completely successful.

The Attorney-General

No Deputy who is not prepared to draw on his imagination or shut his eyes to what were the facts in connection with the circumstances of the time will deny that when this sale was being arranged in Marsh's Yard the Guards were faced with the possibility that an effort would be made to overwhelm them as well as the persons who attended there to buy the cattle. It is all nonsense to pretend that this was an open yard. The complaint made at one time was that the gates were shut for what should have been an open sale.

Nobody who is not living in the moon will fail to realise that the Guards, on that particular occasion, were dealing with a very troublesome and difficult situation, a situation which was not peculiar to Cork. The trouble in connection with Cork was greater than in other areas, partly due to the fact that the crowd had scored a great measure of success on the previous occasion to which I referred.

Everyone knows that, although certain of the more level-headed leaders of the Party opposite attempted to restrain their followers and prevent violence at sheriffs' sales, certain areas were at that time seething, due to the instigation of those who saw that if the sheriffs' sales could be carried out their campaign against the non-payment of the annuities was bound to fail. Then the method of bringing people to these sales, people armed with sticks with a direction to say nothing and to pretend that they were members of the public, had been followed in several instances. But apparently the Guards must have had the feeling or have got some information that the organisation which had been attempted on a wide scale of getting groups of farmers to mix with members of the public at these sales and then prevent people opening their mouths to bid had not been successful. These men were known to be there to buy the cattle. The Guards felt, as is clear from the manner in which they arranged their forces, that there was going to be serious trouble at the sale. What the Guards did was to put 50 Guards in Marsh's Yard to surround the buyers who came there with an armed guard. Was not that well known? No one can deny for a moment that the gentlemen who, as it turned out had organised on a large scale a huge crowd to assemble in the City of Cork, foregathered in the vicinity of Marsh's Yard. They knew quite well that there was an armed guard going around with those men who were attending the sales. The gate was closed so as to prevent, if possible, violent interference with the sale, but the people who were organising this form of interference specially prepared a lorry as a battering ram and put 15 or 20 young men into it. Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney completely omitted to give a true picture of the scene there with a howling mob of two or three thousand people outside the yard and with this lorry, used as a battering ram, charging the heavy gate leading into the yard. It appeared suddenly. It burst through the cordon of Guards with, as I say, a howling mob behind to get into the yard.

The uniformed Guards were, if you please, to be sufficient to deal with them. A superintendent had been knocked down by a lorry and it was lucky he was not killed. The miracle of the whole affair was, as some people have remarked, that many people were not killed on that occasion. This matter has to be put in its proper setting, in the background of the agitation which was being winked at, covertly assisted by friends of the Deputies opposite and was carefully organised. The men charged by the responsible police authorities with the protection of the lives of the persons bidding at that auction exercised their judgment and I am to sit down solemnly, weigh up the rights and wrongs and decide in a matter where split seconds count whether the members of the Gárda, charged with a certain duty, were wrong in thinking that the force that appeared thus suddenly in the gateway, in the circumstances I have described, were armed and were going to do violence to and, perhaps, do to death the men whom it was their duty to guard.

The Attorney-General

I beg the Deputy's pardon; it is not nonsense. I fiercely resent the charges the Deputy has made against me.

When in doubt fire.

What would they do?

The Attorney-General

I am not defending my action on the ground of general policy at all. I am defending my action, or inaction, in the particular circumstances of this case—the way in which every individual case must be dealt with by me.

It is monstrous for Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney to present a picture which would go to show that there were men in this yard with rifles for which they had no authority, without authority to use those rifles and without a duty to discharge towards the force of which they were members in protecting the men committed to their care. I am to sit down and arraign these men for murder.

The Attorney-General

Nonsense.

Promotion—that is what they want and should get.

The Attorney-General

I have always hesitated to import bitterness into our discussions here. I have several times refrained from saying things about the actions of supporters of the Opposition that I might well have said if I wanted to make political capital out of them. I refrained from referring to the lenient course adopted against political opponents, and I am assailed, not by the Opposition but by other sections, in the same sort of way that the Opposition assail me. I am prepared to put up with that and to allow the public to judge as to whether or not I am holding the scales of justice evenly or whether I am, as Deputy Mulcahy said, criminally partial. To prove that, he proceeds to give two instances during the whole year.

I shall give a lot more.

The Attorney-General

If the Deputy wanted to make the charge seriously against me, he should have given more.

You will hear some more.

The Attorney-General

I am solemnly to arraign the Guards, who acted on their best judgment. I take it that when the responsible Gárdaí officers commit rifles, guns or deadly weapons to the hands of certain members of the force, they instruct them as to the circumstances in which they are to be used, and rely upon their judgment to use them for the purpose for which they are intended. I am not going lightly to arraign these people for murder, even though the Deputy thinks I should do so. I think that the argument is all the other way—against doing that. To come back to Deputy Mulcahy, he used language which, if he were serious, he should have justified better than he did. It is monstrous that a responsible Deputy in the front bench of the Opposition should charge any officer responsible for the serious work for which I am responsible with being criminally negligent in his duty.

Can you give an answer to the simple cases I put up? Then, I will answer any charge that falls to me.

The Attorney-General

The charge I make against you is that you have used a responsible position to make an unfounded and improper charge against me without due investigation. When the Deputy was speaking, he was unable to give particulars of the charge. He could not give particulars of the cases he introduced to buttress up his indictment of me, and he had to interrupt me to tell me the particulars of the sentences imposed upon the prisoners.

The Attorney-General will admit that he is not over-burdened with cases.

I am not going to allow the Attorney-General to be interrupted in this way.

He is running away from an answer to three simple cases.

The Attorney-General

I am going to deal with the cases. I did not say that I was not going to deal with them. In the judgment of some people, the Deputy might possibly be excused for expressing an opinion that a certain other course might have been followed in two cases, but to say that he was justified in charging me with being criminally partial, on the strength of the matters he described in his speech, is monstrous. When I think of the lack of responsibility with which this attack was made, it seems to me that it would be almost more dignified for me to sit down, say nothing, and let the public judge between the Deputy and me. The Deputy has already discussed the Mohill case here.

Only by way of question.

The Attorney-General

If I recollect aright, he discussed it on the adjournment. I have not the papers here, and, at this distance of time, I am not in a position to speak with absolute certainty as to the way in which that case came before me or how it was dealt with. The Deputy seems to overlook the fact that I have cases before me frequently, with police opinion as to what is the most advisable course to adopt. I pay the greatest attention to the recommendations of the super-intendents in charge of the local areas. I have to decide, for instance, in certain cases, whether, in the initial stages, they should be transferred to the Military Tribunal. When the case gets past the stage of preliminary investigation, I have to decide whether it should be transferred from the local venue and dealt with at the Central Criminal Court. Where it is suggested that a case should go to the Military Tribunal, it is often most helpful to have it investigated in the District Court and transferred subsequently, if the evidence justifies the district justice in returning the case for trial. I cannot say that my recollection of the Mohill case is absolutely correct, but, to begin at the end, I think that what happened in connection with that case has been more than justified by the condition of affairs in that area since then. There has not been another case of that kind in the Mohill area. The Deputy asks what is the objective. I have to combine, to a certain extent, with the Gárda in charge of the peace and order of the district, and, often, I have to yield to their judgment as to what is the wisest course to adopt in connection with particular cases.

The Deputy overlooks completely this fact that no district justice is bound to accept and deal with summarily, any case that comes before him. It is altogether a matter for his own judgment. Directly that a case is presented to the district justice and he is asked to deal with it summarily, he can refuse to deal with it in that manner, and return the accused for trial. In this particular case the district justice dealt with the case summarily and accordingly imposed the sentence which the Deputy read out, which was pretty severe and sharp, namely, six months in one case and four months in the other and several cases of two months.

For the offence of attempted murder and the use of fire arms.

The Attorney-General

The Opposition are quite inconsistent in their views. They make complaints about sending cases before the Military Tribunal and they complain about cases being dealt with summarily. I am altogether in favour of the use of the ordinary courts. I am altogether in favour, where it is possible, of having justice satisfactorily administered in local areas by the local justices and by local juries. I am altogether in favour of that. Everyone will agree that the more quickly we can return to the normal recognised ways of trying prisoners the better. We have a case here which was dealt with in the ordinary courts, and dealt with severely, and dealt with in a manner which has produced peace and order in that district. The area is a very difficult one and the Deputy knows it. Yet I am supposed to be criminally negligent of my duty in allowing that case to be tried in that particular area. That is the indictment which is brought against me and it is an indictment that could not stand one second's investigation.

Then the Deputy jumps a period and comes down to the month of December to find another case to buttress up some of his outrageous charges. I see that the Deputy smiles. No doubt he may think he is justified in making statements of this nature here. But it is not fair in any way to make charges against a person holding such a responsible position as I hold in this manner.

I told the Attorney-General I was giving him his beginning and end.

The Attorney-General

I am going to deal shortly with the middle. The Deputy referred to the case from Strokestown. So far as I can remember I never heard of it.

The Attorney-General never heard of it?

The Attorney-General

The case was not referred to me at all. The Deputy must be aware that although I am in charge of all prosecutions, the dealing with prosecutions and the initiation of prosecutions are not all referred to me. Very many of them are not referred to me at all. My name is used in prosecutions, but I could not possibly be expected to attend to all of them. The practice has been, as everyone knows, to allow the judgment of the local Gárda officer and the local State solicitor to be used to see if there is sufficient evidence to institute proceedings in certain cases. This particular case, if my recollection is right, was not referred to me at all. Most cases concerned with firearms are referred to me, and most cases in which there is any unusual feature are referred to me for direction. But in a good many cases the proceedings begin and are completed in the District Court—this is the usual practice—and then they are referred to me for formal direction as to whether a prosecution is to come before the Circuit Court or the Central Criminal Court or the Constitution (Special Powers) Tribunal. So far as I recollect —I am not pinning myself down to complete accuracy—this case was not mentioned to me at all. If it had been I think I would recollect it. The Deputy's story is a very extraordinary one and does not seem to bear out the inferences he draws from it. He says that a rifle was found in a man's house and that an uncle and his nephew were charged. The uncle was acquitted, but the district justice apparently thought there was evidence against the nephew. The nephew refused to recognise the court and apparently in his absence he was ordered to pay a fine of 10/-. If what the Deputy says is true, the fine of 10/- would seem to be altogether out of proportion; but again the district justice with all the facts in his hands could have refused to deal with the case summarily, or he could have inflicted a much more severe sentence if the charge had the gravity that the Deputy attaches to it. A fine of 10/- would seem to me to show that a competent district justice, applying his mind to the facts, as presented to him, knowing all the circumstances of the case and hearing the evidence, dealt with it as he thought it should be dealt with by inflicting a fine of 10/-. Am I to be indicted for that? Although the district justice could have sent the man to jail and could give him six months' imprisonment if he thought fit, but only inflicted a fine of 10/-, is it suggested that I should have sent that man before the Constitution (Special Powers) Tribunal. The use the Deputy makes of this is that he compares this case with the case of a man named Quinlan. I recollect that case; the man got nine months' imprisonment.

Twelve months' imprisonment.

The Attorney-General

The Deputy said nine months.

I question if I said nine months.

The Attorney-General

I have a note of nine months here.

The man got 12 months.

The Attorney-General

That only makes it all the more obvious that the court before which this man was brought took a very serious view of the case. I do not know what the Deputy complains of, whether it is that this man was dealt with too severely or that he was not dealt with severely enough.

If the policy is a good one I want to know what the scheme is.

The Attorney-General

The presumption, I should imagine, with regard to all these type of cases before whatever tribunal they may be brought, is that the measure of punishment ought to be much the same. But the standard of punishment that ought to apply in all these cases is a matter for the courts. And unless the Deputy is suggesting that the district justice is incapable of dealing with the evidence in a case of the possession of firearms, and is incapable of imposing a sufficient sentence, I do not know what he wishes me to infer from his observations that the scheme is different. I find it difficult to know what the Deputy is aiming at. He seems to suggest that I am not following a definite, settled policy, or that I should follow a definite, settled policy, that could be easily pointed out with regard to cases that should be sent to the Constitution (Special Powers) Tribunal.

I think the Deputy, by following the cases that come before that Tribunal, could quite readily come to some understanding of the scheme. The main objective aimed at, I think, when the Constitution (Special Powers) Tribunal was devised was to ensure that jurors should not be terrorised; to ensure that the courts would be able to deal with serious organised crime, where the conditions in a particular area rendered it likely or unlikely that the cases could be properly dealt with before a jury.

As I said in the earlier part of my speech, each particular case that comes before me has to be dealt with on its own peculiar facts. The reasons why, in certain cases, the Tribunal selected is the Constitution (Special Powers) Tribunal differ from case to case, from area to area, and from county to county. I treat this matter seriously and I treat my duties with regard to the handling of these prosecutions very seriously, I assure the Deputy, whether he believes it or not.

But not seriously enough to explain.

The Attorney-General

Would the Deputy say plainly what there is to be explained away?

I find this, that a military service rifle can be found in a hayshed attached to the house of a local captain of the I.R.A. in North Roscommon, and a Mauser pistol, with some ammunition, can be found in a milk-can in an outhouse attached to the premises of a member of the Blueshirts in Cork. One case goes before the district justice in North Roscommon, although the person involved declines to recognise the court and does not go there, and he is fined 10/-. The other man is brought by force of arrest before the Military Tribunal and he gets— again I wish to correct myself; the Attorney-General was right-nine months. I do not understand that, and I do not understand why nine months is given to a man who is found guilty by the Military Tribunal of having had possession of a revolver, by reason of its being in a milk-can in his outhouse, and why a group of people who walk into Mohill, determined to burn down the police barracks, if necessary, and who carry arms and iron bars, can be described by the Attorney-General as being severely punished by one of them getting six months, ten of them being allowed completely off, and 15 of them getting a suspensory sentence of two months and some three months.

They were found not guilty. Can the Deputy get that into his skull?

Take the highest case, which was severely punished by a sentence of six months for doing that. Adequately punished, the Attorney-General would say, in respect of a nine months' sentence for having a revolver in an outhouse and adequately punished by being fined 10/- because you are a North Roscommon man. I am not creating difficulties for the Attorney-General. I want to know what the scheme is, because the scheme reacts very badly from one part of the country to another.

The Attorney-General

I have already explained to the Deputy that, with regard to the North Roscommon case, I am completely at his mercy. He has made a statement of the facts which I am not in a position to contradict, but it sounds to me most unlikely to be true that the circumstances he has detailed can be correct, having regard to the punishment inflicted. I can only say that that particular case did not come before me at all. I will go this far with the Deputy and say that in any case I have had before me of possession of firearms by any member of an organised, semi-military or military body, I have directed them to the Constitution (Special Powers) Tribunal. If that is what he wants with regard to policy, that is the policy.

Does the Attorney-General then, in the matter of the use of firearms by people, distinguish between whether they belong to a body or whether they are ordinary individuals?

The Attorney-General

Yes. When I answer the Deputy in that way, what I mean is that there are frequently cases in which persons are found in possession of shotguns, and of firearms of other types, and in which the Gárda are satisfied that the possession of those firearms could be explained in some way which satisfied them that the firearms came innocently into the possession of the individual and would not, in any circumstances, be likely to be used for committing any crime. In those cases, and there are a fair number of them, I consider that the District Court or, if necessary, the Circuit Court, is the proper tribunal to deal with them, but if persons have firearms, and, from their associations and from the reports which come before me as to the circumstances under which they hold these firearms, it looks probable that they were held for use in the commission of crime, I consider that, at the moment, anyhow, the proper tribunal to deal with them is the Constitution (Special Powers) Tribunal. I do not know whether that is a satisfactory test to apply or not, but I think it is, and for the satisfaction of the Deputy, I make clear my attitude with regard to it.

The Minister, in introducing the Vote might, if he wished, have given one explanation as to the increase in it, and I suppose he will not object if I mention it now. This is a Vote which I am quite safe in saying cannot be calculated with any degree of certainty from one year to another. There is nothing which the circumstances of a particular time affect so much as the number of prosecutions which have to be undertaken by the State. We have had a very considerable increase in the number of prosecutions which had to be brought. I brought—the Deputy would say that I should not have brought them—before the Constitution (Special Powers) Tribunal prisoners to the number of 551, as against 51 in the previous year, and of those, the great majority—75 per cent., I suppose—were gentlemen who were engaged in the business of obstructing the collection of land annuities.

And what were the other 25 per cent. doing?

The Attorney-General

If the Deputy gives me notice I will supply him with particulars of every single one of them. This attempt, by throwing out vague questions to me, to create an atmosphere will not succeed. Everybody in the country has seen the necessity for dealing with the organised campaign which has, I think, practically come to an end, but which only came to an end after we had to make extraordinary use of the Constitution (Special Powers) Tribunal. A great amount of this increased Vote is necessary to provide for the expenses of dealing with over 400 of the Deputy's friends and persons whose activities, I am sure, he will quite sympathise with in cutting telegraph wires, felling trees, obstructing sheriffs' sales and attempting, by every means in their power, to organise such a campaign of obstruction that the land annuities could not be collected.

I think with regard to the way in which those cases were presented on my behalf it was quite obvious that I did not make any attempt to score over political opponents. I think the Deputy ought to have the decency to realise, in the way in which large numbers of those men came up charged with very serious offences, that I took a course which might possibly have been condemned on the ground that I was not pressing the charge as far as I might have been expected to press it when I agreed to have the cases dealt with in a manner sufficient to deal with this outbreak. That was, in allowing the men to be dealt with leniently, and, if they gave an undertaking of future behaviour, to allow them to be released. But there was nothing, not one word of that, from the Deputy. He speaks of criminal partisanship, but I do not know if he means it.

May I ask the Attorney-General one question? Does the Attorney-General seriously suggest to the House that these sentences were dictated by him to the Military Tribunal or did the Military Tribunal act independently of him?

That is not half as clever as it looks from Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney.

The Attorney-General

What I have suggested is: the manner in which I presented the case to the Tribunal, and the attitude taken up has had a bearing on the way in which the cases were dealt with. The attitude of the prosecution certainly had a bearing on the way in which the cases were dealt with by the Tribunal.

The Attorney-General feels a grievance that I have not complimented him on the way in which the Military Tribunal has carried on. The Military Tribunal has carried on in such a way that we can hardly get legal representatives to go there.

I think the Deputy is finding it hard to get legal representatives to go there.

That is what I say. That is the point.

The funds are running dry.

I think so.

The Attorney-General

That is what I have to say in answer to the charges made against me. I feel that these charges are unjustifiable. I leave it to the judgment of the House.

I am quite sure that the Attorney-General would not consciously do an injustice to any body of public servants, but I would like to assure him that no uniformed Gárda was charged with any offence on the day of the murder in Cork.

That is part of the old game—to distinguish between them.

It was the members of the new force who committed the crime.

Surely it is entirely irrelevant to bring up this matter on this Vote. The Minister for Justice is responsible for the conduct of the Gárda, not the Attorney-General.

Vote put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 46; Níl, 33.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neal.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breen, Daniel.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Concannon, Helena.
  • Cooney, Eamonn.
  • Corkery, Daniel.
  • Crowley, Fred. Hugh.
  • Daly, Denis.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Doherty, Hugh.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Geoghegan, James.
  • Gibbons, Seán.
  • Goulding, John.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hayes, Seán.
  • Hogan, Patrick (Clare).
  • Kelly, James Patrick.
  • Kelly, Thomas.
  • Kissane, Eamonn.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick John.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maguire, Ben.
  • Maguire, Conor Alexander.
  • Moane, Edward.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Doherty, Joseph.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Pearse, Margaret Mary.
  • Rice, Edward.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Victory, James.
  • Walsh, Richard.
  • Ward, Francis C.

Níl

  • Anthony, Richard.
  • Beckett, James Walter.
  • Belton, Patrick.
  • Bennett, George Cecil.
  • Bourke, Séamus.
  • Davitt, Robert Emmet.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Esmonde, Osmond Grattan.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finlay, John.
  • Fitzgerald, Desmond.
  • Fitzgerald-Kenney, James.
  • Holohan, Richard.
  • Keating, John.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • MacDermot, Frank.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Broderick, William Joseph.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Costello, John Aloysius.
  • Davis, Michael.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McGovern, Patrick.
  • McGuire, James Ivan.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, James Edward.
  • O'Donovan, Timothy Joseph.
  • O'Mahony, The.
  • O'Sullivan, John Marcus.
  • Rice, Vincent.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Little and Smith; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Bennett.
Vote declared carried.
Barr
Roinn